As for Jack Mallers, he is the founder and CEO of Strike, a company that's revolutionizing global payments through the power of Bitcoin and the Lightning Network. Jack's vision for Strike is simple yet bold: making Bitcoin a seamless and accessible currency for everyone, everywhere. Are there any users of Strike in the room today? Because it is now in Europe. There is a few hands. Oh, good. So we're excited to see the CEO on stage. There's a user. Lovely. Okay, so with that out the way, are you guys ready? Fantastic. Okay, please welcome Natalie Brunell and Jack Mallers to the stage this afternoon for their fireside discussion.
All right, I have the one and only Jack Mallers. We got to pump up the energy in here. Let's go. What's up, Lugano? It's his first time here. I was telling him about how cool the drone show is going to be, so hopefully we can make that happen tonight. Buongiorno. All right, Jack, I want to start with just your take on what do you think about this cycle in Bitcoin, where we're at. I feel like a lot of people are just waiting. We're in this lull, this holding period. When is that next bull market blow-off top going to happen? How do you see things in the space right now?
What are we like 2% below all-time high or something? I don't think that's a lull. That's the furthest thing from a lull. I think Bitcoin is technology plus fiat liquidity. I think Bitcoin's the best expression of currency debasement. It's the antithesis of fiat currency in every way. It doesn't have a central planner, it doesn't have a bank, its monetary policy is fixed, its supply is capped. And so I think what we're watching is the direct reflection. It's an index on debasement, on currency printing. So I think dollar liquidity has stalled over the summer and so Bitcoin's hanging out below all-time highs. I expect, I'm on record, I think Bitcoin's going to 250 to a million over the next 12 to 18 months. And I think that's because as Paul Tudor Jones said, all roads lead to inflation, all roads lead to debasement. So for people that say that we're in a lull and they need a hug because Bitcoin's 2% below all-time highs, grow up. I mean, yeah, you want to be part of a free market or you want Jerome Powell to give you a hug and pat you on the back. So I mean, Bitcoin will move when they print currency.
Well, speaking of that, in less than two weeks we're going to have an election. Some people think that it's going to have more or less of an impact on the Bitcoin industry depending on who gets into office. What is your forecast?
I just don't think it matters as far as who gets into office. I think Bitcoin goes up no matter what. Bitcoin goes up because the dollar, or I guess the Euro, has to go down, right? So I don't think it matters much. Now, obviously, I would prefer my president support businesses like mine, support industries like Bitcoin. I would prefer if my country took an interest in owning something that has a fixed supply. I'd prefer that. So of course I like what Trump has represented to myself and others in the space, but I don't think it matters. The deficits are far too big. The only way out, let me put it to you guys this way: anyone that's in debt, anybody, let's say what's your name? Paul. Paul, oh, you gave me a shirt once. Yes, you did. So if I owed Paul $10, I have two options traditionally. I could either be an honest man and pay Paul back, or I could say, Paul, I'm the worst guy you've ever met, I don't have the $10, and we call that a default. Two options when you're in debt: you pay it back or you default. But the government has a third option, which is if they can't pay it back, and the US can't default, they can print what they owe. Okay, so debt to GDP in America is almost 130%. Global debt to GDP is almost 350%. What is debt to GDP? How much we're borrowing versus the growth we're producing to pay it back. So the US can't pay back Paul mathematically. 130% debt to GDP, impossible. The US cannot default. Okay, we have one option left. It's not rocket science. So it doesn't matter who gets elected, they have to debase the currency, they have to print. And okay, so what do you want to own? You can't own dollars. And then you go through what do you want to own? Do you want to own a penthouse? Do you want to own Tesla? And I think we're all at this conference because there's one superior asset. But to me, it doesn't actually matter. Obviously, I have a preference. It's hard for me to change the world from prison, right? I like people that support our industry, but I don't think it matters.
Well, you bring up an interesting point because right now a lot of people see Bitcoin as being sort of defiant to the state and opposing the state, and so it puts a target on its back. And we've seen what happens sometimes even when you speak the truth, the state can come after you. How do you see Bitcoin assimilating with the legacy financial system given the attacks that are happening? We just saw that ECB paper being put out attacking early adopters. Do you think there's going to be a lot of friction, or do you think because we're seeing this institutional adoption wave that slowly but surely Bitcoin will just Trojan Horse its way in?
I don't think. I think thinking of Bitcoin as some form of anarchism is wrong. Bitcoin's about freedom, freedom of speech, property rights. Bitcoin is far more American than the US dollar. Every node is treated equally. There's a freedom in opining, there's a freedom in coming and going, there's freedom of speech, the level of property rights with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the only property you can own where if you own a house, I put a gun to your head, I kill you, it's now my house. You own gold, I put a gun to your head, I kill you, it's not my gold. You put a gun to my head, the only way to not get the 12 words that are in my head is to put a bullet in it, right? The level of property rights that Bitcoin allows for humanity is profound. These are all human civil rights that we should in theory be born with. These are all grounded principles that was supposed to be born with the vision of the United States of America. Bitcoin's not a form of anarchism. Bitcoin is long humanity. Bitcoin is the most pure form of humanity. It is the best version of our species in my opinion. So viewing it as anarchism is shortsighted. I think everyone between government to Marc Andreessen to Mark Zuckerberg, these are people that have built their careers predicated on control. And I think they struggle tremendously with this concept that they can be part of something and benefit from something without controlling. So you get invested in things like Solana and Ethereum because you have outsized control in these networks. And so I think throughout human history we innovate and we build tools. These tools are layers of abstraction that provide efficiencies for us, but sometimes these abstractions we compound on themselves and we get too far from what's real and the truth, you know, if that makes sense. And I think technologies like Bitcoin, technologies like Nostr, these are reversions back to some of the truth of systems that we can all cooperate in where there's no one that has outsized control. And I think the people over the last 50, 30, 20 years that have benefited from having outsized control on these abstracted layers like the internet or like government have a really tough time. I think it's really that simple. I don't think it's a form of anarchy. I don't consider myself like a weaponized anarchist for being a Bitcoiner. I consider myself a proponent of freedom and human flourishing.
Well, you're kind of alluding to the controversy that came up this week online regarding self-custody. Can you talk about why you support self-custody and what your take on that debate was?
Yeah, I mean, I said as much in the video I put on the internet. I love Saylor. I consider Michael a friend also. I know Michael well enough where, and now I think he's come out and corrected. I feel, you know, I do a lot of media too, you do a lot of media as well. Like sometimes we can be misinterpreted. So I think the danger was in dismissing self-custody. I understand that institutions and a wide majority of the population may not have an interest in self-custody and may adopt custodial solutions, prefer to be a customer of an institution and a corporation. Bitcoin doesn't disrupt the fact that society's going to have businesses and corporations, and corporations are going to do shit for people because people like to hyperspecialize in one thing as a profession and then they like to do shit that they like, and maybe that's not custoding Bitcoin. However, dismissing the fundamental right of custoding Bitcoin yourself is to undermine the entire point. I mean, I'm sorry, I love Saylor as much as the next guy, but I mean, give me a break. I can't sit here and listen to this guy say that self-custody is anarchism and is going to ruin Bitcoin. I mean, what do you want me to do? So yeah, I mean, who self-custodies here? Who self-custodies? That's the majority. That's great. Yeah, it's great. I also think, like, listen, Bitcoin is the only free market in the world, period. And so also in a free market, people disagree also like as adults, which I think is also very important. I also thought it was important to get on the internet and say, hey, I disagree with Michael Saylor, and everyone was like, get the fuck out of here. So it's important. It is. And who knows, like, maybe he's right, maybe I'm wrong. We can still be friends, we can still be on the same team, we can disagree. But I think fundamentally, listen, gold, the reason gold failed is because you cannot achieve transaction finality without a government or a central party. That is why gold failed. You want to transact gold with your neighbor, with your local butcher, with your local grocer, you can hand them the gold bar, no problem. You have a population of 8 billion people, you have an economy that's global, you want to send gold across a border, you want to send gold across a town, you want to send gold across an app, you have to give it to the government, you have to give it to the bank, you have to give it to the corporation in order to achieve transaction finality. Gold is a monetary asset with no monetary network. Half of gold is concentrated with governments and corporations. That's why you can manipulate, that's why you can censor, that's why you can confiscate, that's why it failed. It's the mere fact that 2% of Bitcoin is concentrated with government right now, that Satoshi was able to distribute evenly to the people, to all of you through mining, is the fact that Bitcoin works. And the right to self-custody is the only... if we did what he said on that podcast, we would fall victim to what gold did. It's the fundamental point. Bitcoin is both a monetary asset and a monetary network. It can achieve transaction finality without government. And now how many people elect to use that, we'll see what the free market decides. But it's the mere fact that you have the option is what gives us people the leverage to use money without central interference. It's the entire point. And so we all have a responsibility in my opinion to defend that point. And that's why I did what I did. And you have to give Michael credit. He woke up the next morning like the man that I know that he is, and he was like, I was misinterpreted, I absolutely agree. And so here we are. It's great. He responded to the cyber hornets that were at it.
I want to pull on some threads there because you run a Bitcoin business and so I'm sure you've seen how important compliance is and you have to get all these licenses. Can you talk a little bit about that within the evolution of Bitcoin? Because people want it to be a peer-to-peer transaction network, and when it comes to Strike, you're in that realm, you're on the peer-to-peer medium of exchange part of Bitcoin. And then there are people who think it's just going to be a deep store of value and we're just going to build layers on top of it for essentially the dollar to dominate. What do you think about all that?
Listen, the point again is that nothing with Bitcoin at its most pure fundamental form, you are the only counterparty risk you have. Period. If I wanted to use Uber and get on a flight to United and online shop at Nike on a gold standard today, I'd have to take my money, I'd have to give it to the bank, they'd give me a certificate, one day they put a gun to my head, the money's theirs, right? With Bitcoin, that's never the case. However, I see Bitcoin as the greatest opportunity in my lifetime. I see Bitcoin as probably the greatest invention in modern human history, potentially in human history, like up there with fire. I mean, money is nucleus to a functioning society akin to water. It is our time and energy in an abstracted form. It is the only way society can function at a scale more than 10, 20 people. So Bitcoin's the opportunity. I think building trusted global financial services is a product and a corporation that humanity is going to have demand for, and that's what we do. We absolutely, we are regulated, we follow the rules. Like I said earlier, listen, you know, I love you guys, but I cannot participate and help anyone from prison. Like, what do you want me to do? So I follow the rules, we're regulated, and we provide core financial services for what I think is the future of our species. And that's a business that we run. You don't ever have to use my business ever, ever. And by the way, if I start fucking up and being an asshole, you can use any other business. You can start your own business, right? Open network, open protocol, open system, free market. And we want to compete. And like, I pulled up, you know, Coinbase. I read every single Coinbase shareholder letter. I read through every line of their financials. 85% of Coinbase's business is their consumer business. So they talk about assets under custody, they talk about how they execute the Department of Justice trades at the US government. None of it matters. All their money is made from their consumer business and their fake USDC business. And within that, half of their consumer business is Bitcoin. So to me, it's obvious. Bitcoin is the opportunity. People want Bitcoin financial services. You're going to want a place to buy and sell, you're going to want a place to custody, you're going to want the best wallet in the world, you're going to want a loan. All of these financial services. But nobody's focused on Bitcoin. And that's what we do. We are laser-focused, Bitcoin-only, global financial services firm that I think Bitcoin's going to become the majority of the population's net worth and they're going to need financial services.
