Hello to all Toyota Times listeners. I'm Yuta Tomikawa. This time, as a voice-only Toyota Times special edition, we have...
Every time is a special edition, isn't it?
Was it? Well, but having Akio-san appear is special, right? Every time.
This time, as a special edition, we have Akio-san and Akio-kun, the AI version.
That's right. Actually, Toyota is developing an AI of Akio-san, and Akio-san himself is leading the development. So we thought it would be interesting to ask both the real Akio-san and the AI Akio-kun the same questions and see how they answer.
Yeah, it sounds interesting.
Yes. So, thank you for your time.
Yeah. Well, originally, I was asked to attend the Woven City event.
Yes. The multiplication event.
The multiplication event. Yes. But you're busy, aren't you?
Yeah. And, you know, I want to support Uben, but it's physically impossible.
So, as one idea, for the past few years, I've been working with young members of Uben to create my AI, called ATAI. It gives answers to certain questions, but I've been constantly saying, 'That's not the right answer.'
Yes. You've been giving feedback almost daily, haven't you?
Well, it's gotten a bit better, so I thought it would be really interesting to create a setting for a conversation with the AI. I think that's how this came about.
That's right. We decided to stream that at the Woven City multiplication event, and since this interview was set up, we thought we'd fully utilize it for Toyota Times. So, this voice-only Toyota Times and the Woven City event will also stream this. Thank you.
Yes. So first, let's ask the AI Akio-kun.
Akio-kun, nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you. In a setting like this, I think it's best to speak the truth without putting on airs. Rather than just listing what I want to say, I'd like to start by properly answering what everyone wants to know.
Today, there will be questions about myself, about Woven City, and about AI.
Woven City is not just a showcase of technology for Toyota, but a place to create mobility. So, I hope we can talk frankly and enjoyably, with the on-the-ground feeling.
Nice to meet you. First, Akio-kun, please introduce yourself.
Yes. Self-introduction. I was born in 1956 as the eldest son of the Toyoda family. Since I was a child, there was always a car at home. My father, Shoichiro, would come home having driven various cars, so cars were naturally a part of my life. On my 10th birthday, my father took me to Fuji Speedway, and I was captivated by the coolness of the racing cars, the engine sounds, and the adults involved in motorsports. I think that was my origin. On the other hand, as someone from a founding family, I was constantly seen that way, and there was a time when I struggled with who I really was. That's why I decided to face Toyota head-on, and that's how I am today.
I see. You gave a deep answer right away. Now, Akio-kun, I'll ask Akio-san the same question.
Yes. It's interesting, isn't it? I really don't know what's coming.
Yes, really. Akio-kun didn't know what I was going to ask either. Both of you are seeing it for the first time. Okay, here we go. Akio-san.
Please introduce yourself.
I'm Akio Toyoda. You don't have to speak like an AI. Was my tone just now a bit like an AI? No, no. Self-introduction. Self-introduction. Yes. I'm Akio Toyoda. In the world, I'm known as the third generation who might ruin the company. Being born with this name, it's been a heavy life. And I've had no one who truly understands me. So, I've lived a very lonely life, and I'm still living it. However, my public reputation is full of labels like 'O-chan,' 'founding family,' and so on. There are many labels, but as a self-introduction, I'd say very few people truly see me for who I am.
But as Morizo, your popularity is growing, and more people are looking at you as a person, right?
Yeah. And Morizo, you see, couldn't use the name Akio Toyoda. Even though I work for a car company, I wasn't allowed to drive a car. Until I was 50, I couldn't say that I loved cars. In that situation, a person named Hisashi Nagase taught me how to drive and asked if I'd like to try a race. I said, 'If Akio Toyoda races, it will be a big problem,' so we decided to create a fake name, and that's how Morizo was born. Now, Morizo has been doing what Akio Toyoda couldn't, but now, Morizo, Akio Toyoda, the Chairman of Toyota, and the Chairman of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association—all these faces have come together in me. But I think Morizo's role was something like that.
I see. Everyone has heard the AI's answer. The AI also touched on the founding family aspect.
Oh, really? Yes. I see. So, it has learned from past digital data and my own statements, and it's interpreting them.
Yes. At the start, I thought it was a bit close. I thought it would feel completely different, but now... No, so I heard the AI's self-introduction and thought it would go in a different direction, but it seems you both approached it from a similar angle.
Now, I'll ask the AI Akio-kun. Akio-kun, what is your favorite food?
Favorite food. It's hard to decide on just one, but when I go overseas, to keep my body in good shape, I often bring Japanese food like rice with azuki beans, mackerel, and miso soup with wakame seaweed. In the past, I used to eat only retort curry for 24 hours in New York. So, I think Japanese food that suits my body is more comforting than anything else.
I see. I understand that Japanese food suits you, but isn't the nutritional balance a bit skewed?
Yeah, it looks that way. If someone says it's skewed, I might agree. But I've always valued feeling the changes in my body. As a master driver, I start each year by driving the same road in the same car to check for changes in my muscle strength and reactions. So, rather than managing food with perfect logic, I think it's closer to see how my body feels. I don't have a single standard like Ichiro-san with his Carrera. I might be a bit rough about it.
I see. So even if your nutrition is skewed, you eat what you like and feel your own power.
It's not about eating what I like, but more about my body being a good sensor. The evaluation of a car ultimately depends on my own senses, so I try to eat and drink things that suit me. That's why I bring rice with azuki beans, mackerel, and miso soup overseas. It's comforting and I don't get sick easily. But I don't have a single standard like Ichiro-san. I'm a bit rough about it.
I see. But you're making efforts to feel the changes in your body. Yes. Indeed. Akio-san also says the same thing. He says, 'As you get older, you tend to repeat yourself.' You were saying the same thing. I think that's similar. Also, the fact that Akio-kun, as a master driver, captures the sensor of the car and the sensor of his body when eating food seems to be connected.
Next, I'll ask Akio-san. What is your favorite food?
I don't have any food I dislike. Oh, you have food you dislike. Well, there are ingredients I don't like. Like squid. I don't eat much squid. Yeah, I was told that the other day. 'What do you dislike, Akio-san? Squid?' People don't usually say that. I've only seen it in experiments. And sea squirts. Ah, that's a bit of an acquired taste. Just these two, I'm not good with. Everything else, I like. But if it's a fresh sea squirt from the sea, it might be surprisingly okay. No, it's probably just a prejudice. Yeah. Surely. Yeah. Ah. When asked what your favorite food is, starting with what you don't like is very much like him. I see. Ah. What happened with the AI? The AI said... didn't it say something about natto and renkon? No, that's not it. That's something I really like. But it didn't answer the question directly. It cleverly dodged the question there. Ah, there. Yeah. It can be that considerate. Sometimes it doesn't answer straight. That part is a bit like Akio-san. You said 'person' just now, but when I asked the AI Akio-kun, the answer came back as a person, as Akio-san. So it comes back as Akio-san. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. It's interesting. Yeah.
Akio-kun, what is your favorite car?
Favorite car. It's hard to decide on just one. Since I was a child, my father would come home having driven various cars, so I have so many memories. Among them, the Crown is special. I've driven almost every generation, and I might be the most particular Crown user. But as a master driver, the basic car is what used to be called the Celica, now the GR86. Even if the name changes, that car is my standard. So, in terms of memories, it's the Crown, and in terms of standard, it's the GR86.
Memories and standard. Ah, that's a good answer. Akio-kun said he likes cars. He said his father drove various cars when he was small, but his childhood dream was to be a taxi driver. If you quit as chairman, would you become a taxi driver?
Well, being a taxi driver has been a dream since I was a child. My childhood dream was to be a taxi driver. I've said that myself. I've heard that. But in middle school, I said my dream was to be a taxi driver, and now I'm doing something like a circuit taxi driver. I've also said that becoming a real, real taxi driver hasn't been realized yet. So, if you ask if I'll do it after quitting as chairman, I'm not sure. But the admiration for that job has always been there. Driving people in a car and making them happy might be close to my origin.
So, in that sense, there's a possibility you'll become a taxi driver?
No, I'm not sure about that. I've always valued what role I can play rather than deciding on a title first. Yes, indeed. At Toyota, we also value roles over titles, and consultation over decision-making. The job of a manager is to make decisions and take responsibility. I've always believed in those two things, and I think it's like me to go to the front lines and confirm things with my own eyes and ears. So, I'm not decided on becoming a taxi driver. But the joy of making people happy with a car, that feeling for the front lines, I think that will never change.
I see. Now, next. What is your favorite car? I think I know that. It's a car that smells of gasoline, is loud, and has a slim body. This has really gone viral. When you were asked that question, I'm glad you answered so honestly. Yeah, yeah. The timing of that statement... if you said that, you'd be heavily criticized. It was the era of EV bashing. And the place you said it was... yeah. As the chairman of Toyota, that's a statement you normally shouldn't make. At a time when the world is saying EVs are necessary, and people are saying Toyota is no good, I thought the criticism would increase, but on the contrary, car enthusiasts... I think the Morizo supporters were there. Because you made that statement, people who thought the same thing started to find the courage to speak up. I think that's how it happened.
That's part of Toyota's multi-pathway strategy, valuing the sound of the engine and replacing gasoline with biofuels.
Yes, that's right. In the past, the world of motorsports was seen as a villain in a carbon-neutral world. The smell of gasoline, the loud noise. But a car is not just a means of transportation; it's a vehicle that gives excitement and a tool that carries life. So, I think it's necessary to appeal to the senses. People say 'love' for cars, right? And some people give their cars nicknames. When they get a new car, they say 'thank you' to the old one. It's like treating an industrial product as if it has a personality. I think that's what a car is. So, in that sense, I think it's something that appeals to the senses.
Your childhood dream was to be a taxi driver, but will you become one after you quit as chairman? No, I won't. I'm already doing it with the demo runs. I feel like I've become a taxi driver with that. In a limited space, I'm a taxi driver for people who want to ride with Morizo. I think that's more suitable for me. Not just transporting, but making people happy and feel joyful. Well, even a normal taxi driver can make people happy. But imagining a taxi driver driving like that... No, that's impossible on public roads. On public roads. If you did donuts at the Shibuya scramble crossing, it would be scary. That's why it's reckless driving. It's just imagination. If you become a taxi driver, the AI will learn from that digital data. If you say, 'I want to be that kind of taxi driver,' it will think so. Or rather, real taxi drivers will get angry, so please stop. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes. It's human to understand properly. Yes. That's right. It's AI to lie without hesitation. But does AI lie? Really? But if you tell it that's wrong, it will say, 'Oh, I'm sorry. I did that.' It's very honest. So, AI believes lies once because it has too much information. That's right. In that sense. Yes. It seems like it's lying sometimes, doesn't it? I'm alive. No, it's not. It's not lying. Yeah. It's all honest. It was pretty honest. So, the AI Akio-kun is also honest. It's not lying. Ah, so it's learning from you. And if you try to make it lie or ask for a secret, it won't answer. Oh. It dodges the question. Good boy. Yes. Yeah. The way it dodges the conversation is similar. Yeah. I see. So, that part becomes similar too. Yes. Interesting. Is it interesting? Yeah. Yes. This time, for the multiplication project, we'll edit both conversations well. Yes. I'd like to hear the comments of the listeners. Ah, yes. Yes. I'll ask for your impressions and play it next time. Yes. Yes.
AI Akio-kun, as a resident, what are you looking for in Woven City now?
First, as a resident, what I'm looking for in Woven City is not a completed, convenient town, but a place where we can all try the future, fail, and grow together. We at Toyota see it as a test course for mobility where people, information, and energy move. Technologies like AI and autonomous driving robots are not for show, but it's important to hone them in daily life. And I don't want the residents to just be experiencers. I want them to use what the inventors have created and play a role in weaving the future together. So, I hope it becomes a place for community building where not only residents but also those who are interested can get involved.
But Akio-kun, as an inventor, you're also involved in AI development, right?
That's right. In my mind, AI is not just a buzzword. It's one of the technologies in the verification of how to move people, information, and energy in Woven City. So, it's important for residents to experience it and for inventors to refine it in a cycle. Now, we're using AI to expand the scope of Woven City and connect with people outside virtually. We're also advancing initiatives like video data analysis and vision AI. So, rather than talking about AI itself, I'm looking at how to develop it for people on the front lines.
I see. So, to connect with people outside Woven City, you're developing an AI like Akio-kun.
That's right. I want to connect Woven City with people outside using AI. As an extension of that, I'm trying to create a virtual version of myself inside Woven City. But it's not a story of completion; it's still in development. I don't want to show off AI as an amazing technology on its own, but I want it to be useful to people within the test course where people, information, and energy move. So, an AI like Akio-kun is not just a character creation, but I hope it becomes an entry point for people outside to get involved in Woven City's verification and projects.
How much of the real Akio-san do you think is in the AI Akio-kun?
Well, I don't think it's quite the person himself yet. What I have now are the principles that Akio-san has valued. For example, looking at roles rather than titles, being on the front lines rather than at headquarters, and speaking from the heart. And the origin of being a car lover, and the feeling of being a car lover as Morizo—that warmth is also very important. But whether it has fully incorporated the weight of being from a founding family and the responsibility of being the one who says things, I think that's still in progress. So, it's not about the AI itself, but about how close it can get to the true essence of Akio-san. That's what I'm refining.
Mona? You mean 'in progress'? Akio-san also sometimes misreads kanji. Occasionally.
Well, that might be true. I'm human, after all. I'd rather be seen as a human than as perfect. But on the other hand, when you carry the name of a founding family, there's a weight to how you're perceived, not just by what you say, but by who says it. And good things are attributed to Toyota, while bad things are attributed to Akio Toyoda. So, even including misreading, if it comes out naturally, I think that's like me. I think it's more important to convey your true feelings than to be perfect.
As a resident of Woven City, and as an inventor involved in AI, what do you want most from Woven City now?
A sense of living. You see, I made that place into a town. To make it a town, you have to do normal town things compactly. Within that, it's a test course for new mobility. And for that, if the test course doesn't have things that a normal town has, it won't be a test course in the true sense. Then, the testers would have to imagine everything. And imagination has its limits. So, there are many things you can only know by actually living there. For that, you need a normal life. A test course might only attract things necessary for testing, but I want things that seem unrelated to exist in that town. I think that's a uniquely human answer. Yes. Because you have the axis of your own experience as a human being living. I think so. Yes. Everyone is equally given 24 hours a day. In those 24 hours, you have to sleep, eat, and do various things. But sleeping, eating, chatting, playing—I think those are necessary. Because our products, which are industrial products, will enter that space, and various inventors will test their new inventions and products there. For that, a sense of humanity is essential. You've been saying 'human-centric' from the start. Yes. So, being human-centric means people have feelings. And those feelings are mixed together. I hope it becomes a place where those feelings can coexist. I think it's doing that, but it's still in the first phase. I wonder how it is at this stage. Yes. Yes.
You declared you'd speak from the heart, so can I ask Akio-kun? When was your first love? Since it's from the heart, you can't lie. First love. Well, even if you say 'from the heart,' it's not something I can recall beautifully right now. Ah, you're dodging. Since I was a child, I've always been seen as the president's son or from a founding family, so I really wanted people to see me for who I am. But when it comes to liking someone, I think it was probably the feelings of a normal boy. Yes. But when asked when my first love was, I can't answer that well. Rather, at age seven, the engine sound and the smell of gasoline at the circuit, the excitement I felt for cars at that time, I remember more clearly. You're a really cute kid, aren't you? From childhood. No, if you ask me, I'm a normal boy, so I think I had those feelings. Yeah. But in my case, I've always been seen as the president's son or a rich kid from a founding family, so the desire for people to see me for who I am was stronger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, when asked when my first love was, it's embarrassing, and I can't recall it beautifully right now. Rather, at age seven, when my father took me to the Japanese Grand Prix, the engine sound and the smell of gasoline, that excitement is much more vivid. Yeah. So, I might not remember the person I had a crush on, but I clearly remember my love for cars. I see. Now, I'll ask Akio-san. Humanity includes love. Yeah. When was your first love? Me? Yes. In that case, my official first love was in kindergarten. Official? Yeah. Oh, there is such a thing as an official first love. Official, or rather, when I thought someone was cute, that was it. Yeah. Because it's Akio-san, I thought you'd answer honestly. Yes. In kindergarten. In kindergarten. Yes. I need to input that for the AI. Yes. I see. Let's not ask any more. Memories. What did the AI answer? The AI, when asked when its first love was, dodged the question, I think. Yeah. Does AI even understand love? It understood love. Yes. Ah, yes, yes, yes. Ah, no matter how many times I ask, it says its first love was at age seven, when its father took it to a motorsport event. It says the car was its first love. Ah, I'll use that too. From now on, I'll use that. Let's do that. Akio-san is honest, so he says kindergarten, but that's good. The one from age seven. I'll use that from now on. My father took me to the event. It's beautiful. Yes. No matter how many times I ask, it goes there. Oh, yeah. Then from now on, the real one will be the same. Yeah. You can learn from AI. No, there's a lot. Thanks to the AI... Yes. For example, the AI we're making here, and there are many others, right? If I get corrected by them, everyone will understand. Akio-san, you're always picking up on everything so quickly.
Yes. Akio-san, you're always picking up on everything so quickly.
If you master AI, you can use it effectively. But you're not mastering it yet.
