The world was so vengeful after the financial crisis. They were looking for someone to set an example, and it wasn't going to be Bear Stearns and Lehman and Merrill that didn't exist anymore. And it wasn't going to be the big banks. It was going to be Goldman. People went after us, which meant going after me. And when I went through a long Senate hearing that lasted hours into midnight, and I was giving interviews after that till 2:00 in the morning and taking a car back to New York, that certainly wasn't fun. But again, I had the perspective. I knew at the end of the day, we did stuff right. People were clamoring for something. I didn't feel super exposed in any fairness sense, but I was tortured. The Senate, after that hearing, because they didn't get the satisfaction of showing that we were purposely trying to kill the market to make money, which of course we weren't, the committee chairman put out a referral to the Justice Department to investigate me for criminality. I didn't even know what the crime was, but the FBI, compliant as it is, did an investigation. I would get picked up, be brought to the Southern District Office, interviewed with a court stenographer. That happened like three or four times. And you know, your mind kind of says, whoa, some 34-year-old assistant attorney general could ask for a grand jury and do something.
Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining me today is Lloyd Blankfein. He is the former chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs from 2006 to 2018, and he's the author of a book that I think should be the business book of the year. I don't know if the FT would qualify for that because it is a memoir as well, but to me it is a strategy manual for dealing with life. It's a rite of passage story, but also in here is how to manage a company going through a crisis. And Lloyd, by the way, it took me back memory lane. I left Goldman Sachs 30 years ago. Hard to believe, but I was there.
I was there for the first seven years of my career. And you were very nice to me then and you've been very nice to me now. So, it's great to have you on, but again, I love this book. And it starts in East New York, Brooklyn. I want you to take us back there if you can, talk a little bit about the precocious nature of your childhood, but also you were growing up in public housing. So take us there because it's just an unbelievable, wonderful American story arc, Lloyd, of your career.
Well, you know, I did grow up in public housing. My dad worked in the post office as a mail sorter, actually. He had been, I remember earliest memories, bouts of unemployment with my dad, unhappiness around the table. He got a job at the post office, civil service. He took the night shift because it paid an extra 10% night differential. And so, unfortunately, growing up, my dad worked nights. I think he had also for part of the time a part-time job during the day. So I really wish I had remembered more conversations with him than I do. But we grew up in that circumstance. But by the way, so did everybody around us. And so part of the genius of America is that probably about 85% of the country thinks they're in the middle class, believes they're in the middle class. All practical purposes, given the minimum standard of living that we have, are in a kind of a middle class. So, I didn't know that I didn't know what there was necessarily to strive for, but I did know that I didn't like growing up in the projects, going to the high school that I went to in the neighborhood I lived in, in the neighborhood I traveled to. So, I was very, very anxious from a very early age to leave and go to an out-of-town school. That was my big objective as a kid growing up.
I have so many things that I've underlined in this book and there are personalities in this book that I remember from the firm that stayed at the firm with you and helped you manage the firm. But the best line, I told my producers this, the best line in this book is on page 21, Lloyd. It's top of the page and you write, and it's a very brief line, you write, 'At Harvard, I was short.' And I'm thinking you're writing about me, Lloyd Blankfein, but no. What did you mean by that sentence, 'At Harvard, I was short'?
You know, again, I didn't travel much. I didn't get out much. I was basically living in the projects with a lot of kids that were like me. And guess what? I've never seen the sociological study. And I don't know whether it's the effects of malnutrition or just eating a lot of fatty foods or whatever. But I wasn't sure where I was growing up. And then when I got to college, like the first day, I'm walking with some of the people from my floor. We're walking to the dining hall and I looked to the left, I looked to the right, and I felt like a valley between two mountains. And I said, 'Boy, you guys are tall here. You guys are tall.' And they looked at me and said, 'No, we're not tall. You're short.' And I looked around and I said, you know, gosh, you're right. And it was the first time I thought of it. So I guess I didn't suffer from a bad ego at that point because I thought of myself bigger than I was.
Well, see, I identify with you in so many ways in the book. I thought that we were well-to-do in a weird way. And when I got to Tufts and I saw these kids riding around in BMWs, I'm like, okay, I'm short, Lloyd, but I'm also not rich. I mean, it was a combination of those two things. But we didn't have, we had to, you know, I read your story, too. We didn't have, again, it's not the same, but it rhymes. You know, we both, Italian household, Jewish household, you striving, very working-ass parents and somehow we made it, punched above our weight and made it to fancy school. You and I both went to Harvard Law School. Who would believe that for either one of us at this point?
No way. You know, no one would have from my neighborhood or your neighborhood.
You know, we ended up in Goldman. We went the entrepreneur route and I stuck it out climbing the greasy pole at Goldman Sachs. But you write about that Goldman was the right place for you and I appreciate that because one of my law school classmates, I don't know if you would remember Jeff Moslo, he was on the banking side. He was well suited to be a Goldman Sachs partner and he took your career track. It just for me, I always wanted to have my own business. That was one of my career dreams and so we pursue the paths that we pursue and life takes us where it goes. But there's something in the book I was dying to ask you about because threaded throughout this book, Lloyd, is you're coming into every room and the question is whether you are an establishment guy, Lloyd Blankfein, or are you a kid from East New York? And the question I was dying to ask you was how much of your career was actually using that tension as a competitive edge versus just surviving it and it being a rite of passage for you?
Well, I got to tell you it's not optional. It's not as if it's a calculation. So, it's all of my career. You are who you are. You get stamped. When I first started writing the book and I started it and then I stopped for a while. I got out, you know, 64 when I started it and I realized I left home. I left East New York when I was 16 and I went to the hallowed halls of Harvard, which of course was huge culture shock. But the point was I did get away. But that 16 was exactly a quarter of my life. And I was sort of ruminating on how you get stamped in your early life and you never shake it. You can lean towards it, you can lean against it, but you're never going to shake it. You are, you know, it's Popeye. That's a quote from that great philosopher Popeye. 'I am what I am.' And so I'm always going to hear myself speak. I'm going to hear my Brooklyn accent. I'm going to try hard to say 'rather' as opposed to 'radder' or 'sister' instead of 'sistuh.' And so I'm always conscious. So you're always both. At some point you just go with it and decide that you're lucky for it because there are burdens to every position but there are advantages to every position.
Well, there's also empathy. I mean, it made you a better leader. When I read your book I see a person that has gone through every segment of the society economically and for me the book reads very empathetically about your colleagues and it reads very empathetically about the role that you had. I think you did a great job of remembering where you came from, but also recognizing where you had gotten to, but there's always that tension. And so that's something I think that's what I always try to impress upon people is people who grew through Goldman Sachs is think about who was in your position when you were striving and going up and you've become that person. Do you realize that you could put a name on it? Like the first time I realized I had a job that Bob Rubin had when I first got to the firm, you know, Bob Rubin who was then treasury secretary was co-head of the firm for a while. I said, 'My god, when Bob Rubin walked into a room, I used to make you shake and now I'm that person.' You have to realize how people look at you and when you grow up like us, stepping out of yourself and seeing yourself in the room and being self-critical, by the way, is unavoidable. Often it's really good but sometimes it gets in your way too because you end up second-guessing yourself, you end up not living in the moment sometimes, you end up walking out of a room and magnifying the things you would have or could have or should have done differently because you always grow up with that perspective on yourself. But in other ways, it's hugely helpful to be able to put yourself in other people's shoes. But sometimes you wish you could turn that on and off. And so the answer is I don't know whether I'm the kid from Brooklyn and I was the CEO of a very establishment, very influential firm and they got me for that job. I'm both.
Thank you for tuning in to Open Book and if you haven't already please hit the subscribe button below so that you're the first to know when our new episodes drop each week. We got a lot more coming. And now back to the show. Yeah, but I mean listen, you know, I probably shouldn't gush this much. I'm supposed to be this objective journalist on these podcasts, but I was like, you know, I love the book so much that I bought a hundred copies. Every one of my summer interns, I hire 20 people for the summer. I try to help these kids out from school. They'll get a copy of the book. They'll have to discuss it with me. I gave it to every person at my firm, SkyBridge. I almost said Goldman because thinking about Goldman, but I've given it to a lot of my friends to read. There's just so many touching stories in the book. I want to go to one that really moved me as well. Your mom made you rotate the rug so it wouldn't wear unevenly. Right. So, you know, I identify with that because as an Italian in that community, Lloyd, we had rubber runners. You may have remembered those if you walked into an Italian apartment. My mother and my nana, they had plastic over the upholstery.
And they had rubber runners going.
How was it sitting when you on a summer's day, how is it coming in from outside when your house isn't air conditioned, it's 97 degrees and you sit down on a plastic, you know, wrapped in plastic. And you know the sad thing is of course none of it even made any sense because when my parents finally moved away down to Palm Beach, the furniture was like pristine, it was like still in the wrapper. But you know again we're talking about these things and it's not really the whole point of things but I'm that way, I'm still that way. I still if somebody gives me a new sweater I don't want to wear it until it's old, until it sat in my drawer for about eight years and is out of style because I just didn't want to get anything new dirty.
So, but I not only identify with that, I think it also affected me in terms of my risk taking on Wall Street. You know, I've done well, but I've been a pretty good risk avoider on certain things. I think it has to do with my upbringing. I guess my question to you about this is what did that teach you about risk growing up like that, rotating the rug?
You know, I always had, again, I don't know what it stems from and I don't know if there's a linkage in this. I don't have my degree in psychology. But I definitely saw the, always worried about the darker side of things, how things would go, looking around the corner. It's again, it's something that I wish I could turn on and off because sometimes it clouds what otherwise should be an unabashedly, unambivalently happy moment because I'll start to think what could go wrong, what could take it away. It helps in the 2008, we're going to get to. I mean look, like anything else, things are positive and things have a dark side, you know, taken too far. But I always again had a bit of a, you know, what could go wrong with this. And actually I have found, look, in going to Goldman and coming up the trading side, I found something that really suited my, you know, that suited, I was very, very good at intense focus. But you ask me to work on a project straight through for three days, I was good for, I could get, for me getting five hours worth of work done was usually working for two hours and procrastinating for three. And I'd get five hours worth of work done because I was very intense in the two hours and very, you know, procrastinating and fidgety during the other three hours in order to make the other two hours work. But I did come from a place where I got used to looking around corners and always thinking that low probability risks are much higher probability than you think. And starting to think that even as a trader, I always divided the trading job that I had in two separate distinct parts. One is what do you think is going to happen and getting yourself there. So in other words, trying to guess the future. And the other part of it was risk management where we go at different times and say, 'Okay, now we're in risk management mode. I don't care what you think is going to happen. I don't care that you're lined up consistent with those views. I want to know anything you can think might happen and what you're doing to contingency plan for it, mitigate the consequences. Try to avoid the bad consequence. What are you doing about something? No matter if you could think and conceive that it could happen. Tell me now what you're going to do about it or what you're doing already to mitigate the consequences.' And that's risk management. I remember going around a room, you know, at various financial crises that we've had. I said, 'Okay, we're in risk management mode.' And somebody will say, 'Well, I think.' And I go, 'I don't care what you think.' And then that person would say, 'Oh, if you don't care what I think, tell me what you think.' And I said, 'I don't care what I think. I just want to know what's in the realm of the possible and what we're going to do if that happens.' And if you do a good job at that, when things happen, as they did in the global financial crisis and in the dot-com bubble and in long-term capital, and you know, we had the crisis of the century like every four or five years. When you do good contingency planning, you get off the mark so quickly when something adverse happens that people think you anticipated, that you guessed it. And no, you were just a very, very, very good reactor. So again, two different modes. We were big risk takers. We try to get the market right, but sometimes when things we didn't understand what was going on, we'd go into risk management mode. Try to get closer to home and try to think of all the things that could affect our balance sheet. And our balance sheet was huge. So nothing could happen anywhere in the world that didn't affect us. And by the way, about 90% of the time they accused us of causing it anyway.
Well, you know, that's another part of the book, but I want to go to something that, and this could be geographic on my part, by the way, because I left Goldman with very good feelings about the firm. Some of the partners actually helped me, like Mark Winkelmann and David George and others helped me get my firm started when I launched it. I was actually a private banker for John Weinberg and I celebrated my birthday with him. I was born on January 6. I used to go with Jack Shepard, really taking you down memory lane, but I used to go with Jack Shepard to the Four Seasons Grill Room. John had an office on the 10th floor. You guys had a satellite.
I used to, when he retired, I used to go out to lunch with him like once a quarter. I just did it, you know, in appreciation after he'd long retired.
Yeah. Well, so I was his banker. So I went to see him regularly, probably I would say six times a year, but specifically for his birthday. Me and Jack Shepard, his old roommate from Princeton who fought in the Second World War with him. We would sit in the grill room together. And he was the culture carrier extraordinaire, as you and I both remember, the legendary John Weinberg. And one of the things he said to me, Lloyd, which is so evident in this book, is that some people grow, other people swell. You remember him saying that, Lloyd? You remember him saying that? Trees, Lloyd, I'm going to say the sentence and you finish the sentence. Trees don't...
Obviously grow. They don't grow to the sky.
They don't grow to the sky. See, I mean, this was, this is the stuff that you and I grew up with at the firm, and it's imbued in your book, and I want to talk about the culture of the firm. You're embracing it from East New York. You're not, let's just face it, you're a non-establishmentarian, but there's something warm and embracing about this culture that you ride to the top job.
Look, I loved, I think so. Yeah, it was in a way it was because I didn't grow up in it. You know, I kind of came in through the back door. I applied, you know, I practiced law for a while. I applied to Wall Street like everyone does after four or five years. You go get a different job when you're in a law firm because it's such a miserable life being a junior lawyer in a law firm. I didn't get a job at any of the big firms, including Goldman. I got a job at J. Aron & Company which was acquired by Goldman which is how I got in through the back. And that was a small commodity trading firm and I grew up through the commodity division and started creating more responsibilities in trading and sales as it went on. But because I was an outsider and because I always felt a little bit out of things, you know, when I got to college, other kids had gone to prep school. I went to, you know, failed high school in East New York. I was always a little bit remote. I didn't dress it. I didn't have the same life experiences that other people had at that point. I didn't try. I was always a little bit out of it. And when I got to a great institution that I could do well in, I just hugged it because I just really for the first time I felt really grounded and had a great platform and was part of a great team whereas before that I just felt more of an outsider. Now I can tell you the culture of Goldman Sachs is very strong. I think by the way one of the great achievements of Goldman Sachs has been maintaining that culture that I started with when the firm was a partnership and you started with as well and kept that partnership ownership culture this more than a quarter of a century after the firm has gone public and that is a great kind of achievement and it has consequence. Now what's the culture? It really is a partnership, an ownership culture. It's like the people you work with are your, and technically they were. That's what a partnership is. You're not just looking, the senior partner is not just looking at his subordinates. He's looking at the ownership of the company. And as owners, they feel entitled to information to know what's going on in the whole firm, not just their cylinder. If you work at Amazon in the retail part of the firm, you're not really asking a lot of questions or getting a lot of information about the AWS part of the firm, the cloud part of the firm. But at Goldman, everyone felt they were tied. The compensation was tied to how the firm as a whole functioned. You got more information. You had expectations that you'd be consulted on things. If you're running, if you're the senior partner, you have to socialize the things you want to do. And you get push back and guess what? You sometimes go five rounds with people and you may change your mind or you may not change your mind and you may slow it because you think the organization can't take it. In a public company, you know, it's more of a chain of command, response, obedience, the buck, and the people don't own it. And so there's real consequences in terms of your feeling. If you're a junior person in the firm, you come away with a sense of ownership. And if you're running the firm, you have to respond to people as if you're there by the consent of the other owners, which in a partnership, you are. And so the firm kept that philosophy and had the discipline at the senior-most level, Hank, me, my successor, David, to run the firm that way. It's a lot easier to say, 'This is the way we're going to do it.'
Yeah. It's a lot harder when you have to, you feel the need to build consensus with people who are entitled to question you and second guess you but at the end of the day you get a more stable, you know, I think it's a difference like between the American military command structure and the Soviet. You don't just push, you know, people in the field are expected to think, to have ownership, to have rules of engagement, you know, the rules of war that transcend other things that you may be told from time to time. So I think that made for a stronger firm and it was certainly something that I appreciated. And by the way, one of the cultural things of Goldman which you're an example of is the firm always stayed close to its alumni, made an effort to so that people, you're out 30 years and if you're describing yourself to someone, at or near the top of your list is your ex-Goldman. So you're at the firm seven years, gone 30, and you still partially identify as Goldman and the firm works at that. There would be times when great people, you know, I'm sure people didn't want you to leave and you go, 'Oh my god, my heart's breaking. This guy is leaving. I'm mad. I'm this.' Go into a room, count to a hundred, come back out and wish the person luck and say, 'What can we do to help you?' Well, I got a tremendous amount of help from my colleagues at Goldman, some former partners, current partners, etc. And I always have a warm spot for Goldman. I would say this to you. When I left, my father, who was a crane operator, was very nervous for me. And he was like, 'You're leaving this big company and you're going to start a company based on this PowerPoint presentation.' I mean, I said, 'Well, no, Dad. I learned a lot from that firm. I'm going to use a lot of their practices, a lot of their compliance practices, all these different things, which frankly we still use today.' But I was going with the culture for another reason, Lloyd, because you know, we're getting up there, you and me. Process matters, doesn't it? Because I do find that the people that stick to process do better than the people that are lone wolf operators. Am I wrong?
You know, it's like anything else. You could find examples on both sides of the ledger. If you live in Silicon Valley, you know, you'd rather apologize and get approval and things don't always, you know, you could see people have evolved a whole ethic and a sense of management style by eschewing process. Now that may work and by the way you hear about the success stories, you don't hear about the other 99 that crash and burn. But in a place like Goldman which is very big and very consequential and a big balance sheet where if you make a mistake, and by the way this has come up a number of times, where you build your big balance sheet which is levered and you make wrong judgments, you could do damage to the economic system, to the markets as a whole. And so we found out, and I found out in 1994 when the firm had very little process, that you know, we're so proud of our non-bureaucracy...
But I think we've taken that pride to an excess and let's get a little bit more regular surveillance on what we're doing. Let's have a different set of people look at what risk takers are doing because you can get loopy and go off in the wrong direction and not get reeled back in. Let's have some more process. And so after the crisis of 1994, again, there's a crisis all the time. In 1994, if you recall, you won't, you know, a lot of you listen.
I sold a piece of the business of the Command Trust. I was there when we went through that crisis and I was told, you know, I was in PCS at that time so I was on a salary, I was on sort of a...
Just to say what happened, that's when the Europeans raised interest rates by 6%, not six basis points, 600 basis points. David Aston, you remember that whole...
In a few months and everyone thought they weren't. And so guess what? When you lower interest rates, asset prices swell in value. When you raise interest rates, they contract in value.
Yeah. And like physics, like relativity. Buffett said interest rates are the physical gravity of assets, right? That's what they are. And so it was a shock and we were, you know, not in great shape. And guess what? He discovered the riskiness of what we had, which didn't feel that risky when things were going well, but when they were going poorly they suddenly felt a lot riskier. And that was when we put in, after that, we put in a regular risk committee that met, that went over stuff again, trying to walk the line between not being, you know, being in an entrepreneurial risk-taking enterprise but having some surveillance that we could rely on to let us avoid, you know, that which an extra set of eyes could prevent.
Well, listen, there's so much to talk about. Unfortunately, I have a 30-minute podcast, but I want to just say a few things about the book because I read it and then I went back and I've underlined a lot of it, by the way, and I'd love to probably have lunch with you at some point and really talk about it. But the thing that I really got from the book was your self-awareness. And to me, you wrote about yourself in a very vulnerable way. Not just your upbringing, sir, but your time as the manager, if you will, the CEO going through a financial crisis at a time where you and many other CEOs were the poster boy for some negativity in the press. And by the way, I have been there, Lloyd. You know, I've had my face X'd out on the front of the New York Post as a member of the Trump Survivor. You know what I mean? I'm getting my ass fired after.
Oh my god. I have a whole series. Somebody made a whole billboard for me of my caricatures in the New York Post. And you know, and the headline, the label of it was the Daily Tabloid.
Right. Exactly. And I've had, you know, listen, I've had myself in a Bitcoin boat sinking from the New York Post. My head is seven times the size of my body.
Think of all the jealous people who don't get as much attention as we did.
Well, okay. Yeah, you could say that, but there's something revealing about what you write at the time that it's happening.
There's some pain in it though, isn't there? And there's some self-reflection, anxiety. I mean, again, this is a short talk. It's a longer, but you know, the world was so vengeful at the financial crisis. They were looking for someone to set an example. And it wasn't going to be Stearns and Lehman and Merrill that didn't exist anymore. And it wasn't going to be the big banks that lost $60 billion. They didn't look like it was going to be Goldman that did relatively well in the financial crisis. Not because we knew what was going on but because we ran a much more hedged, sensible book. But you know, people went after us which meant going after me and I knew what my role was. You know, I had to play my role. And I actually, and I talk about this in the book, I'm not sure how it wasn't a secret, but I don't think people were as focused on it as I was, but when I went through a long Senate hearing that lasted hours into midnight and I was giving interviews after that till 2 in the morning after that and taking a car back to New York and, you know, that was, you know, that certainly wasn't fun, but again I had the perspective. I knew at the end of the day we did stuff right. People were clamoring for something. I didn't feel super exposed in any fairness sense. But I was tortured. You know, again, the Senate after that hearing because they didn't get the satisfaction of showing that we were purposely trying to kill the market to make money, which of course we weren't and everybody really...
Super hard to do that as you and I both know the market. For us and everybody understood that we were buffeted by the same forces as everybody else.
They actually, the committee chairman put out a referral to the justice department to investigate me for criminality. I didn't even know what the crime was potentially, was giving bad testimony in a hearing. But the FBI, compliant as it is, did an investigation. I would get picked up and brought to the Southern District office, interviewed with a court stenographer. That happened like three or four times. And you know, your mind kind of says, whoa, I know I'm fine, I know there's nothing to it, but you know, some 34-year-old assistant attorney general could ask for a grand jury and do something. It didn't happen that way but it could have. That certainly gets you to focus.
Well listen, I have a lot of empathy for you because I've been in those situations as a public figure and in the world of politics. People probably wouldn't realize this, but, you know, I in some ways I'm your doppelganger. I took a different career path and did sort of an entrepreneur's route from Harvard Law School and you did the corporate route, but you know...
We were all in the financial markets. We overlapped. I mean, we knew what each other was doing the whole time.
No, but I mean, my point is that there's some vicariousness to your career that I really do enjoy. And I think you came out in the book. You know, I admire what you've done with your career, but I also admire your thought process because it comes from your life experience, you know. And so I want to go to that because in the middle of all this, you've got to beat lymphoma and, you know, some of my friends have had lymphoma. It's a tough, tough disease. I don't know if you remember Mort Lacker, he was actually a very close friend of...
Yeah, the different kinds, like I had non-Hodgkin's. Yes, it was. It's so funny because this goes back to my segment that I always had a fatalist streak. So I'm always, you know, you get your annual physical and this particular one was out of cycle because I was feeling off and then I was feeling more off. And I noticed I went to the doctor, was coughing, went to the doctor and he gave me throat lozenges for my cough and I left and it was still not... And for me to go to a doctor other than for my regularly scheduled was a big deal. Went back in and I got a chest X-ray which showed nothing. And I'm walking with friends and I said, you know, similar to you, you guys are walking fast. They said, no, you're walking slow. And then at home, I lived in a split-level house and when I walked up the stairs, I was falling walking up because I wasn't clearing the riser. And eventually, I went back in, got a CAT scan, and then that lit up like a Christmas tree. And I had, you know, it's blood cancer, a million tumors, but they're all blood cancer tumors in different places in your body. And I had to deal with that. And when I started, that was kind of a 50/50 outcome. So, you know, talk about risk management. You're lying in bed at, you know, I had my treatment was every, you know, six three-week cycles where I had four days, 96 hours of chemo flowing in. And then the balance of the three weeks, so the other 17 days kind of recovering from the treatment. And, you know, it worked out but it does make you thoughtful about certain things. I didn't quit my job right after that, I stayed another three or more years after that. But it does, that's another thing in life which has benefits and obviously you didn't want to volunteer for that and you didn't want to take the risk. But given how things worked out, you're an improved... you turn out to be better for the experience because...
Listen, the book reads like that. This book reads like a psychologically minded, empathetic person that's been through a lot. And one of the things I wrote in the back of your book that I wanted to ask you, which I'm now going to ask you is, I have my own answer to this, by the way, and I'll share mine, but I want to hear yours first. What's the actual skill of surviving at the top that people underestimate?
I think communication, showing who you are, you know, and wrapped up in communication is authenticity, who you are, not pretending. That's my answer. I can be humble because I feel humble. I said, you know, maybe if I had your head of hair and I was 6'4", it would be harder to be humble. But being a short...
Expert four, but that's my width, right? That's the problem. It's not my height.
