A Conversation with Tina Knowles Moderated by Cathy Hughes at Her Legacy

My name is Kathy Hughes. I am the founder and chair of Radio One and these are my girls. Please welcome them. They were small. God bless you all for being here. And I know that some of you needed to adjust the spandex and you need to do a little stretching. So that's why I got you up for real. Thank you for being here. You would not be here if it were not for these ladies. I never touch a microphone until I first thank God from whom all blessings flow. Raise your hands to the creator. Thank you, dear God. We love you. We thank you. And we praise your holy name. All right. Make yourselves comfortable. All right. Thank you for coming out on this rainy day. The triangle is my favorite area. I can't say that in any market except the triangle cuz we're in 19 markets now. We're up to 75 radio stations. We've got two cable networks, 32 digital platforms, and God has blessed us to be the company where 82% of all African Americans touch one of our five companies every week. Every week. So, if you really want to know what's going on, please spread the word. We need your support. First, we had to survive digital. Now, here comes AI. They just will not allow black women in business to be left alone. But we up for the challenge. I was born proud to be a sister. I have lived almost four score. Those of you who know that means in the next year 80 years I've been alive. 80 years and every single solitary moment of those 80 years I have loved the blessing of being placed on this planet to be of service to my people. I am unapologetically in the black people business. You all are the priority of my company. I was the first African American woman to chair a publicly held corporation. And although I get credit for that, it's because of my business partner and my son, Alfred Liggins, who now thinks he's my daddy. He's so confused. So confused. Lord, please keep him in your prayers because I keep telling him that maybe one day I will need a daddy, but right now I'm proud to be a black mama. Okay? And you know, we don't cut no slack no matter what age we are. Any of you didn't have some elderly grandmas who was worse in her 80s than she was in her 40s would slap you upside in the head with a skillet if you said something smart or wrong to her in her kitchen. So I plan to remain active as long as God sees fit to remain have me remain active because the tragedy is we never get credit for what we do. Everybody was all excited. Four astronauts went to the moon. All right. First time three decades ago. Three sisters made that possible. You know, we didn't even know that they existed until Hollywood made a movie about them. So, I love to tell my John Glenn story, which is maybe he fell out with one of the sisters. You know, sometimes we get an attitude. Might have said something smart to him. So, he's like, I ain't telling nobody nothing about what she done. Second sister come along, she comes along and sides with the first sister. Yeah, Johnny. Third sister comes along and is a mathematical genius. It is impossible for that white boy to go to the moon and not know three black women put him there. Okay? And we got to wait for Hollywood to tell us. We have got to do a better job of telling our children, our grandchildren, our future generations who we are, what we stand for. We all have legacies and every last one of us is the CEO of ourselves and our future and the future of our families. We cannot have a better example of what is possible when you put your matriarchal responsibilities first. When you realize that God has blessed you with a baby. I was 17 when I had my baby. And I'll be honest with you, I did not think it was a blessing. I couldn't go to the prom. I graduated in an oversized gown. I took him to college classes with me in a baby carriage. Now he's the president and CEO of my company. And not because I chose him to be, because my board realized that as I aged, he knew a lot more about how to run a business than I did and had a lot more energy. We have to realize that the God-given blessing of parenthood, motherhood, is really your best legacy. It really does not matter what your title is, how much education, how much money. It's all about what you instill in other human beings. That is your legacy. Today we have the number one classic example of how high you can take your children. What you can accomplish and still keep them grounded and out of trouble. That's right. So easy to make mistakes when your face is everywhere. When everyone's pulling at you. But I have to honestly say, having been blessed to observe both Solange and Beyonce from the front row seat, those girls are as sweet and loving to their mama today with their success as they were when they were children. That's testimony to the greatness of Tina Knowles. So without further ado, where is she? And you tell them to cut the pictures and bring this to her online. I man enough. All right, let's do a little chat. Tina Tina Tina Tina the incomparable Tina.

I told them I was aging while I was waiting on you. They weren't expecting me to come up here the way I did. I didn't expect this to be. Hello. Like we ain't seen each other. We back there taking photos and talking. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming to Durham, North Carolina. The triangle. You know it's called the triangle cuz it's three. Yeah. Yeah. So, your mic working? Okay. Check your mic. My mic. Yeah, you can hear me. Right. There we go. What a beautiful audience. So, they're going to be kind of surprised because number one, let me just start off by saying I have not read the book. And the reason I haven't is because I always select my favorite book for my summer vacation reading. Oh, okay. Okay. So, I know that you've done have you kept count how many interviews on this book you've done? Oh my god. Okay. A lot of them. All right. So, you and I just going to have a chat. Okay. Okay. Okay. But we going to sell some books too now, okay? Cuz I don't want to hear from her agents cuz okay, Tina has employed her family members for years and years and years. I don't want to be out with the family, okay? So, we'll sell some books, but I want to start off by saying to you something that's going to surprise you, which is thank you for taking me to church in Houston and introducing me to Pastor Rudy. Yes. Okay. Pastor Rudy has stayed in my life since that morning he took me to his church. I know it was cold. An incredible human being. Yes. An incredible human being. And I'll tell you when we're not on the mic that he holds me, he credits me with saving his life. Are we coming up with that story? Okay. Yeah. So, Pastor Rudy is an individual where Tina raised her girls. Okay. and her husband up in the church and her grandson. So the first day at church, your grandbaby, your number one, how old is he now? He's 21 now. He was throwing the hypnos over the balcony and trying to get me some. Absolutely. Spirituality has been the essence of your life. Can we start with God? Then let's talk about the importance because obviously the same way God directed you to do the things that you've done in your life, God also directed you to write this book Matriarch and take the title. What a peak. You are the matriarch ultimate. And can we get a round of applause? The ultimate matriarch and I can't wait to do this. So I know that I'm probably the only interview you've ever done with the host of the He said, I ain't read the book. Wait, wait. Can I get a free copy? I brought you one. You did already. That's what I was going to say. Yes.

So, you've become a celebrity in your own right, but it occurred later in your fourth quarter. Oh, yeah. How do you feel about that, Tina? That you can't walk into a room without being greeted with a standing ovation that people you don't have a personal life because celebrities don't. And you've always been a hook. She be hook her up behind. She's a beautician by trade. Okay. She can hook up some hair. Beyonce blowing in the wind is just coincidentally. That's a Tina invention. Okay. But does that bother you that now that okay. Cuz both your daughters have enjoyed it for a long time, but it's relatively new to you.

What about the fact that get in your car and go to the grocery store, but I do I drive everywhere. I go to the mall. I go to the grocery store. I do everything that you know that I I did before. I go to church by myself. I drive myself because I just made a conscious decision that I refuse to let my life be so affected that I'm scared of people. So I still meet people. I talk to people. I love meeting people. I love talking. I love taking pictures. I like it all. So it doesn't bother me. I got to talk about the shoes for a bit. Okay. Okay. When Matthew and I received those honorary doctorates at this university. Okay. Two stories I'm going to tell you about this. It was when you and your daughters were manufacturing shoes. Those were the most comfortable shoes that I ever in my life worn. And I don't know, I'm sure you don't remember this a little in detail, but I was rushing to catch the plane and I left the pair that I had with me in the room. I hadn't been at the airport 10 minutes and I called back and said, oh my god, my shoes are in the wrong. They were gone. Those shoes. Why did you come out of the shoe business? Because I remember in an interview with Beyonce that she said to me that she can't remember a day where her feet weren't hurting until you and her developed these shoes. Talk about those shoes.

They were the best shoes I ever owned. Why not? Why can't I buy them now? That well, now they're really need. Well, you know, I'm still doing good, girl. Well, let me tell you why. cuz I got two knee replacements. And I got I tell I say I'm 72, but I got two 35 year old knees. I love those shoes. So if you ever decide that you want to do something else, please go back cuz I'm here. Raise your hand if you all got some a need for some shoes. Okay. Cancer. You don't know this. I had cancer. I didn't know you had cancer. That's how long has it been? Four years. She was at my 75th birthday party, which was in Vegas. She and then husband Richard came over and Charlie was busy flirting with her. Charlie's my grandson who's 17 now, a track four. And he was always talking about, yeah, when I grow up, I'm a married teacher. I was like, Charlie, would you please conduct yourself like your grandmama gave you some gold treat? But let's talk a little bit about this cancer because I have to honestly say that when that doctor sat me down and told me that I had cancer, I went into a zone.

Yeah. You had breast cancer? I had rectal cancer. Oh wow. And the same thing happened to me. I have sent everybody to get colonoscopies because when you wake up from that drug that's how Michael ended up. took too much of it, but you wake up refreshed and it feels so good. I said, okay, the co I didn't know then I forgot about it and it was don't you wait. Don't y'all start no more. But it does. That is the best. I mean, it's you come alert. You feel refreshed. Okay. Exactly. And that's what he was thinking. But I want to ask, how many of you have had a cancer issue? Would you raise your hand? Because wow. Tina and I are classic examples of survivors. That's right. So we want you to know that we have our prayers and that cancer only God can take you out. That's right. Okay. No question about it. So what are your hobbies now? What are your free time? What does your free time look like?

So your two daughters both are musically inclined in addition to other talents. We know them for their musical talent. Did they get it from their mama or from their daddy?

I'm sure I've seen I've seen some videos. Yeah, videos. And I was like, well, we know they didn't get that dancing from his team. But, yeah. So, that that's they got it from both of us. I want to talk to you about proper conduct. I have to honestly salute you and the class that you have exhibited with both your divorces, but particularly with Matthew. When I talk to you young girls, I say to them, it is a bad reflection on you to badmouth absolutely somebody you done had a baby by, right? They didn't change. If they were a dog, they were a dog. When you got pregnant, when you were dating them, okay? They didn't wake up one morning and say, I'm going to be bad. Okay? And I say to young women, that is a bad reflection on your judgment that you had sex with and a baby by a man that now you saying it was a dog. You have done that without being preachery or anything. You have exhibited so much class. I want to thank you. Oh, no. It's true. Because I happen to know how deeply you've been hurt. Yes. But you didn't share that hurt. You didn't feel it necessary. You were changing gears. You were going to go in a new d a different direction. That's right. And so it had nothing to do with them. It was all about you. Speak of that.

So many young people concentrate on being a Beyonce, a Solange, Kim Kardashian. How do you instill in young women in particular, because I promise this audience, I I was honest. I told them I had not read the book. Though a lot of my question had to do with me knowing you, but how do you convince young women that they are Beyonce, they are so they are Kim Kardashian, they don't need to be aspiring to be somebody other than themselves. Certainly you instilled that in your daughters. Yes. Okay. How do you do that? How have you Why do you have such a self-awareness? How did you mess with your mama, your grandmama? How did you know who not even liking your name? How did you know that you like Tina?

I went to a Catholic school. If anybody's read the book, I went to a Catholic school and the nun, we were I grew up super poor, right across the street from the school. We had this raggedy little house and you could see our house from the school. And we went to this private school and my mama was always saying, 'We don't have money for that. You know, we can't afford it.' I'm like, 'Well, y'all sure are affording this stupid school across.'

And it was like teachers and nurses. They were like the upper echelon of, you know, people and they had money. And so we were at the school and these nuns reminded me every day that I did not belong there. I didn't know why we were there, but they would tell me that I was selfish and vain. I'm 5 years old and they telling me I'm vain and I'm selfish and they're going to get that evil spirit out of me and I'm not going to tell you what I was calling them in my brain.

But I was just thinking, 'No, you're not.' And I had a mother that was an amazing, wonderful mother, but my mother was very passive and very Catholic and very brainwashed. So she didn't protect me from them. So I had to learn to be a warrior at five and talk back and protect myself because she just didn't protect me with the nuns. And so I, you know, that resilience that I have, that fight that I have came from being five and them telling me that I didn't belong and I wasn't good enough all the time.

So, you know, I taught my daughters from day one, you are good enough to be anywhere you choose to be. Whatever you want to be, you just got to work hard and nobody can give it to you. You got to work hard and you got to persevere and you got to make the sacrifice, but you can do anything. And they really believed that they could do anything.

Well, I did have it. My mom was always telling me, you know, that I was smart and I was beautiful and all of these things. No, my mama was great, but she just with the nuns just bowed down, you know. She did all the altar clothes. She did the altar boy uniforms.

Yeah, that's where I learned to sew. Her mother was a seamstress way back from my grandmother, my great-grandmother who was enslaved. She could sew.

So, they passed it on. But what I found out when I was 14 is that my mom and dad were bartering because my daddy drove the nuns to, you know, pay their bills and their errands. I was like, why are y'all slaves to these people? And they were mean. They were really mean and they did a lot of really cool things to me.

Girl, no. The school was black and the nuns were black. They didn't have that 54. This is like 59. This is a black Catholic school. It was black nuns. But what I found out when I was 14 is that my mama was bartering. So she was working like for them and doing everything for them and my dad was in order for us to go to private school. And whereas I think that that is such a beautiful sacrifice right now. I did not think it was at 14. I was like, she could have kept that because it wasn't a great experience for me, but what a sacrifice my mom made. When I got older, I really appreciate it. I get emotional every time I think about it because she took a bunch of stuff so that her kids could have a good education. So, she was a wonderful mom, but she just would not fight the nuns because she was scared that they were going to kick us off probably. You know, she was in a bad position.

You know, I'm sure I haven't done everything I wanted to do in life.

A lot. I had a bucket list and I crossed off so many things. Recently, I did a commercial for Kirk Guyger and they asked me to be in the commercial and I actually wound up producing it, doing all the decor for it, doing the styling, everything. It was so much fun. I didn't know how to do it. And that was great. That was a great accomplishment. You know, I have done a lot of stuff.

I don't probably, I don't know. You know, if I find that right person at 72, the pickings are slim. And you know, I have been talking to a very nice man that's a wonderful man and if it happens then it's great. But if it doesn't and if it don't work out, I am going to be just fine because I get up every day and my life is just full of joy. It really is.

I don't think so because I think very highly of who I am. I mean, neither way. But, you know, it's funny. I'm going to tell you a little quick story. When I went through my divorce after 33 years and I was so sad and I was so down, I was in therapy because I've been in therapy forever. And my therapist called me and she was like, 'How you doing?' And I was like, 'I can't, you know, I don't feel like getting out of the bed. I'm just eating ice cream and I'm looking at TV and I'm just, you know, I'm really sad.' And I said, 'You know, I just feel like I'm so old and I'm not going to meet anybody.' And those things go through your head. And she said, 'You know what? I want you to do something for me. I want you to take a piece of paper.' And that's what people wrote and didn't put it in their phone. And I wrote down all the list of every failure that I've ever had in my life, the time that I felt insecure or not attractive or any failures in my life. And then I wrote down all of my wins and all the things I had accomplished and things that I felt good about and the good side so outweighed the bad.

Even though the bad was speaking louder at first, but as I wrote and I felt better, I said, 'You know what? If I met me, I would want to date me. If I met me, I would want to be my friend.' So, I got up and got cute and went to the museum and I started looking at art again because I hadn't had time. I shipped my art books to New York and I started living because I feel why wouldn't somebody want to date me? I'm funny. I'm nice. I got a lot of good stuff going on. So thank you.

Thank you.

Why would they want me from who my family is? I just don't think that way.

Yeah. How you think about.

That's right.

They knew that they had the brilliance of three sisters sending a man to the moon. Okay.

That's right. And so many of us buy into that help and I don't know what's going on with my life.

Oh my god. You know, I think that it is the power of sisterhood. At my lowest times in my life, who has pulled me up, and I'm getting emotional, I'm about to cry thinking about it, has been my sisters. You know, if you think about not my blood sister, but my friends. You got to surround yourself with a circle of women that make you feel good every day that's not jealous of you, and lift you up and you lift them up because there's so much power in that. And I'm always confused when I see a circle of friends because I mentor a lot of young people and when I see a circle of friends where it's some young sisters and they are kind of being catty and a little jealous, that has not been my experience. My experience has been my sisters lifting me up and when I feel really bad and insecure, they make me feel better. Surround yourself with people who are happy to see you happy. That is my advice because we cannot go outside of our own race to expect people to prop us up. We got to prop each other up. Stop tearing each other down. Uplift everybody around you because I never understood the concept of people being negative and mean and hateful but thinking they going to have success.

Who's going to want to follow you? Who's going to want to buy your product if you start a business? It's just easier to be a good person and to uplift everybody else and let them uplift you. That's my advice because we can't go outside and say, 'Oh, lift us up.' And we not lifting each other up, right?

All right. Madam CJ Walker went to the school.

Wow.

A FedEx.

She knew that. And it's so interesting. You need to really study her. She married the wrong person and her empire started to collapse.

All right. So, I know how it came. Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. Exactly.

Okay, that's part of that's in the book as well. I encourage everyone to, you know, just like I said, my history could have been gone. And I encourage Thank you, Tel. And that's for both your copies because that's a paperback that I just reissued this week as a matter of fact, but to just get on Ancestry, get on 23andMe and I know it's been a lot going on with that, but research, interview the oldest person in your family. I mentor kids and that's one of the things that I have them do. I have them to interview the oldest person in their family and they don't want to do it at first, but they get obsessed and then they just want to know all the history because our histories are so rich and you need to pass that on and pass that legacy on to your kids and your grandkids. I wish I could go back and talk to my mom. You know, I lost her at 20 I was 26 years old and I wish I could go Yeah. I lost her very young and so

They never met their grandmother. I never met my grandmother because my parents were like 44 when they had me. So, they were older. Wow. And but you don't have to go back three generations. Actually, I guess it'd be four generations to my great-grandmother. Both my great-grandmothers on both sides were enslaved women. And both of them managed to free their children. They had like 14 kids and the other one had 16 kids. And all of their kids were freed. So I know I come from some good stock.

Yeah no I've heard it's amazing but when you are turning 80 next year. All the doctors tell you to read, not listen, because it keeps your brain.

I'll be 80 next year.

I think that you know it's legacy and that's I mean the theme for today is the theme for today is her legacy and this is my legacy. It's about resilience. And looking over this book like I said when I was writing it I realized how resilient I am, how strong I am and I encourage

Yeah, it is. A lot of it is my diary because I just kind of recorded into it and you know what I was very honest to you.

Wait, wait, wait. You had 400 pages. This book was 900 pages. So, the people were like, 'Don't nobody want to read 900. You got to get another.' Well, that's not true. With the family that you have produced. They'll read 9,000 pages.

Oh, a before and after. I love it. And here it is right here. I know y'all can't hear me, but I'm on the beach at the same position. And now I have Beyonce, Solange, Kelly, and Angie, because I really have four daughters.

And every child whether they admit it or not secretly wants to be an only child so they can have their mama to themselves. Okay. I was an only child for six years and my brother and I have not amended fences yet. I've been he came home from the hospital. I'm like we were just fine. Three of us. What the hell are you doing? I'm serious. My mama used to say that I would come home and go back in those days, we didn't have trash bags. You just put your trash in the can. She said I didn't get out the can checking for a baby roof. My mother loved baby roof wrappers. And then I would start crying if there was one. Said, 'You gave him a baby roof. Did you see?' She's like, 'Kathy, he doesn't have any teeth. He didn't need a baby roof.' Okay. How do you navigate that? How do you give only child attention when you have more than one?

Period. Well, as children, you know, I had it's a 5-year difference between Beyonce and Solange. And by the time Solange was like five, Beyonce was 10, and she was like this little local star in Houston. And it was very difficult for Solange because they were so close and then all of a sudden Beyonce was in this group and she had all her friends and Solange was getting in her stuff and trying to hang around them and she didn't want her around and she started being mean to her and Solange started tearing her stuff up, you know, the usual sibling stuff and it really scared me. It frightened me. And in my salon, I had a therapist there and she was an adult therapist. And I said, 'You know, I want my girls to be close. I don't want them to have resentment. They're not close anymore. I'm just really worried about it. I want to send them to counseling.' And she said, 'Oh, I know a child psychologist, a male child psychologist, and he is wonderful.' And so I started my kids in therapy. My family, including my ex, was like, 'You gonna make them girls crazy. They too young to be going to, well, why you putting them sending them to a psychiatrist,' that's what they called it, 'You going to make them crazy.' And I sent them anyway. And Beyonce hated it and Solange loved it because she loved to talk and get her stuff out. And but it made Beyonce so sensitive to the fact that that was her little sister and people were taking her away from her and they became very very close and they've been close ever since. And I'm really happy that I did that because this is way a long time ago y'all people and black people they wasn't about that life.

And so it was very kind of revolutionary for me to put my kids in therapy. And I believed in it because I was in it forever.

I put myself in it. I put myself in it when I was having problems in my head very early on. And you know, and to be honest, I never told anyone. I didn't tell my family for a long time that I was in therapy because I knew, you know, them and the way that they thought about it. And so when I put my kids in it, everybody had an opinion. And I was like, I don't care what y'all say. My kids are going to be well balanced and they're not going to have all these insecurities and they're going to be close. And so it worked. So, you know, if your kids need some help getting through some things, it is nothing wrong with getting

Right. Thank for the free services that are available. It is so important.

That's right.

Um, I think I got to say everything. I'm pretty open and honest and people have had great questions and when they don't have the questions and there's some message that I want to get out then I find a way to get it out. But I just think that before you judge someone, I think it's important and I always want to say this, before you judge someone harshly, put it back on yourself and try to put yourself in their place. And with celebrities, you know, I have people that tell me just about every week that that's what you bargain for. When you became a celebrity, then all bets are off. I could say anything about you. I could say anything to you. I could do anything to you that I feel like doing because that's a part of being a celebrity. And I don't agree with that. I think that people still should respect and you should think about it before you believe everything that you read because some of it is such and you know people are just very quick to believe that and I couldn't say that in the book because I was like I don't want to sound like I'm

Yeah. Well, I'm standing here and somebody's recording. But I mean it's just the truth. Give people the benefit of the doubt and don't always think the worst of everybody's human and everybody is not the same.

Well, Alfred didn't grow to be Beyonce. I'm a little disappointed in my son.