Welcome to a new episode of Power Players with Brian Sozzi. I'm Yahoo Finance executive editor Brian Sozzi and if you're watching this, you might be wondering why is Brian coming to me from a very noisy conference center in DC. I'm coming to you from Symbol 4's World Economic Conference in DC and I'm doing this episode because my next guest is very special. He is just superhuman. He's very busy and once you get a date on the calendar with him, if you cancel that date, you may never get another one ever again. So you have to strike while the iron is hot. That is TKO Group president and CEO Mark Shapiro. Mark, good to see you, man. Thank you for doing this.
Great to be with you, Brian. Great to be with you always. Yeah, I appreciate it.
So last time I saw you, I was going into a WWE event. It was Madison Square Garden. I'm sitting behind Andrew Schulz, the comedian. All of a sudden Logan Paul comes out and rips him out of the crowd. Mark, I'm like, 'Holy, did this just happen?' I mean, this is crazy. Crazy. I thought they were going to pull you. That's where I thought they were going.
They should have. We'll take that offline because I am down for that, Mark.
Well, nonetheless, good to see you back for hopping on this podcast.
I got a bad line to Triple H and you'll be on in 2 seconds.
Hey, look, you want to pull me out from a crowd and beat the hell out of me on WWE like live, Raw, SmackDown? I'm in. I'm in. That's like childhood dream stuff. Just don't squash me. You know, I got to have the face. You know, the face, the TV thing. Which you get as a long-time media executive, my friend. For those not familiar with your career, everything that you have done, where did you start? Because I imagine you do not get to what you are doing at TKO Group without like starting somewhere and starting somewhere cool.
Yeah. I'll tell you I started as an intern with NBC Sports back in 1989. Actually doing a lot of events for Bob Costas. So, and Costas is still going strong as you know all too well. I was an intern over a summer. I worked on a lot of live events. I kind of got my chops. I sold New York Times newspapers over the phone at night to make money because in those days, Brian, they didn't pay you to be an intern. It was just college credit or nothing. And then ultimately I got a job as sort of a gofer at ESPN when they were launching ESPN2 in 1993 and worked my way up from there.
Bob Costas. Like how do you go from doing that? Like what's the career arc from spending that time in those early days with Bob to, you know, launching and developing new shows on ESPN?
Yeah, you know, it was a pedigree. It was a foundation of storytelling. And there's no better storyteller than Costas and still one of the best interviewers today. News, sports, politics, you name it. And one of the most researched men you're ever going to see and meet. So, you really get those chops, right? You get those learnings. You get the right skills, the right habits, research, homework, like you do, pound the pavement, make relationships. And ultimately when you got in ESPN, what is it really? It's storytelling. It's journalism, right? They're breaking news and they're covering the news, but it's a lot of live events. It's a lot of studio, a lot of insight, a lot of reporting. And it really became the place of record. And I think working with him, who's such a journalist, but he's also a commentator, and he covers so many different cultural events, was really the best training I possibly could have had.
Did you go to school? Did I hear that right? Broadcast journalism?
Yes, I did. I majored in communications, broadcast journalism. I had a minor in political science at the University of Iowa, but I went to college knowing that I wanted to be in sports broadcasting, sports journalism, right? So, I researched out what are the best schools, the best programs, the best curriculums, the best facilities. Iowa has the number one creative writing school in the country, and I'm from Chicago, so it was a Big Ten school, but not too far from home. And you know, I set the table there, and then while that was incredible training and again another good pedigree for what I would do, at the end of the day as you know, it's about experience, right? It's about getting out there, who you're meeting, different internships, really putting yourself ahead by having first real hands-on experiences that can't be taught in a classroom.
What was it like, you know, who did you idolize broadcast journalism-wise growing up and why?
You know, I went to bed on Monday nights with a transistor radio underneath my pillow while listening to Monday Night Football.
Yeah. Even in junior high, somehow in my house there was a bedtime. And it was no more television, and your homework better be done. It was pretty strict, good discipline, good values from my parents. And you're in bed, but you got your hands wrapped on the radio, right? You didn't... And there were no highlights to get the next morning. There were no social clips. There were no... you're waking up to scores. You know, it was the newspaper, but you wanted to be in the moment, and that's just such a good byline, a good tagline on what sports is, right? These are in-person experiences that you want in real time. And they really resonate, and you remember them, and you don't want to get them kind of after the fact. And I think that sets us up pretty well at TKO now because we have WWE, we have UFC, we have PBR, we have IMG, which of course distributes all kinds of sports properties around the world. And of course we have On Location, which is the leader in premium experiential hospitality. And sports stands out in this AI world. It's very much AI proof because you want to be in it. And of course all the youth of today suffers from FOMO. So they want to be able to show people that they were in it.
Mark, I still remember when I got my first beeper in high school and I had the sports scores scrolling across the side next to 143, I love you from my girlfriend at the time. I mean, that was awesome. That was those were the days and I want to get into... I called an 800 number. 9761313 was the number, which charged 95 cents to my dad's phone bill to get NBA scores at night. Is that crazy?
Oh, that is crazy. Oh my god. The kids today, they can't even appreciate that. But you know what? I don't think they could appreciate too. Like so you arrived in the ESPN young executive, you got all these amazing ideas. Oh but yeah, but then you look up, there's like 75,000 layers of management above you. Like how did you make it through all of those layers to launch your new ideas?
You know, first of all, great question because that's... it feels like especially at that age that it's impossible. And it also feels like as you're ascending everyone's rooting against you, right? Because now all of a sudden everybody that hired you is reporting to you. And they're just kind of waiting for you to fail to say, 'See.' So you have to make sure, you know, your approach is layered with humility. Right? That you don't know everything, not even close. But you know enough to know you're only as good as the people around you. So, you have to listen, and you have to be curious, and you have to care about what other people think, and what they say, and their ideas, and have an open door, and collaborate, and push creativity across the board. And when we win, we all win. It's not one individual. So, look, when I took over programming at ESPN at 32 years old, and kind of I felt like every guy's dream coming out of college was to work for ESPN. And now I'm running the show from a content perspective, you know, it was a humbling experience, but I really approached it in just that way. That I'm going to spend 90 days just listening, figure out what's wrong, what's not going right, what we can improve and do better, because I'm in this job because a lot isn't working. So, let's find out what it is, and then, once you're informed, you combine that with your instinct and your gut, and you start making decisions that hopefully put you on a path to success, profitability, and a better culture.
Mark, you're a high-energy guy. You're a good-looking dude. You know the industry. How did you know that, you know what? I don't... I'm going to put those ambitions to be a Bob Costas or a broadcast journalist and put it to the side, and I'm going to go climb the C-suite. Like, was there one defining moment that made you say, you know what? All right, I'm going to go down that path.
It's funny you say that, because that is the real truth. Not everybody can be like you. Have the looks, have the presence, and really have the whole cadence, the package to be on air like you are. They say that every producer, truthfully, deep down is suffering from the fact that they wanted to be on air, and they couldn't make it. So, I was in high school, frankly, and we had our own TV studio. I mean, back then, we're talking in the '80s. That's like unheard of. And we programmed the local cable channel, which most communities it was just color bars when you turned to that channel. We programmed it and produced all the football games, the basketball games, and I was the play-by-play, and I also hosted a lot of the interview programs. So, in those days, I wanted to be the next Bob Costas. What happened was the internship at NBC went well. That moved me into live events. All of a sudden, I'm working on the Barcelona Olympics. I'm going to Wimbledon. My career started really climbing at a rapid pace. And when I came out of college, I realized, 'Wait, I'm so ahead here. I can keep going and probably be a producer in a couple of years, or I can turn back and try and go on air, but you're going to have to start your career in a really small town like the 200th market, you know, making bubkes.' And do I really want to give this up? So, I kind of buried the on-air aspiration and moved towards the production, the producing, the programming, which ultimately turned into management.
I want to jump around a little bit, so bear with me here. How could one go about today being a Mark Shapiro? Like you mentioned like newspapers and listening to transistor radios. Like me, I spent 10 years as a stock analyst writing by hand equity research reports on like Walmart, Target, and other retailers. Like these career paths have changed. Like how do you adapt or just adopt or take what we did and fit it to today's environment and still get jobs like this?
Look, for me, it starts with homework and hard work. I mean, that's what you were doing. Yeah, you took everything available to you to make those notes and be able to give the kind of counseling guidance that your clients needed or expected. Whatever the job is, today's environment, you've got to jump in with both hands and both feet. You got to be willing to get sweaty. You've got to be willing to put your blood and tears into it. There's no substitute for hard work. Yes, we have more mechanisms and devices and tools and resources to make our jobs more efficient, to get answers on the fly, but at the end of the day, it doesn't take away from the fact, it only supports the fact and the theory that you just have to sell out. You have to be all in. And I think today a lot of kids, it's a generalization, but they're coming out of school and things are a little easy and COVID slowed some things down and the 5-day work week or 7-day work week like we had, you know, isn't what it once was. But to me, that's opportunity. If you go sell out and you come into the office and you do the work and you do more than expected, right? If you get the assignment and go above and beyond and you're there and in person and available and responsive, you know, there's no telling where you can go. And AI might make it easier for you. So, learn AI, right? Learn what tools are out there. Be adaptive. Be curious at the end of the day. And at the same time, just really invite and embrace new technology because you have to be in touch, Brian. Like I'm in touch. I do a lot of reading, you know, I watch a lot of shows, I pay attention to the news, right? I'm up early to do that. I'm on the treadmill reading. Like I have to be up to speed if I'm going to do an interview with you. If I'm going to go about my day. If I'm going to have a lot of meetings with external parties. And that's really important to stay in touch of what's hot, what's trending. Otherwise, it's tough to really be innovative if you're not up to speed on all that.
You know, that's a good point. And also, you know, inherent in this industry, there's so many... I feel ridiculous even mentioning this to you. Like there's so many big egos. I don't know. Like egos everywhere you look, there's egos. Egos behind that door, ego behind that door. How have you managed these egos? And like what's the secret to managing their expectations, managing their egos? You know, I would argue just the fact you have your resume and your pedigree, that keeps things initially in check.
Yeah, I mean, obviously now because I'm older, you know, it's different. But, you know, as you're climbing up the way, I can't tell you enough, like I'm just a... And this isn't like a political speech or position. I'm just a big believer in building great teams. You can't know everything. You can't be an expert on everything. You can't get to everything. The art of delegation is part of my recipe of success. In order to delegate, you have to have people that you trust to get the job done, right? That maybe are smarter than you are, right? Paying attention or in touch or out in front of trends more than you are, maybe better risk-takers more than you are, more innovative, more creative, more nuanced and experienced, different walks of life, diversity so important these days. And I can tell you that I have an art of building and surrounding myself with incredible people. And by the way, if they're not performing, they're out the door. Not like that. You put them on a path to recovery and hopefully rehab them and they're delivering what you need. But if they're not doing it, you're not doing them any favors to carry them. So, I'm a big believer in churning out my team to make sure I'm surrounded by the best and the brightest and not be threatened by that. Very important.
To that end, media thrives on new ideas, a new show, one new newsletter, new new new, new everything. For you, where have these new ideas come from over the years? Like what's the genesis or the origin story of a new idea?
You have to make the time, which is easier said than done. Two-fold here. You have to make the time to have time in your life to just think. I don't care if you're walking the dog or you're on vacation, if you can get one, you know, it's a Saturday morning, you're up earlier than anybody else. So really just get out there and have free mind to think about what could we be doing that we're not? What should we be doing that we're not? Where are we behind when most people would expect us to be out in front? So it's an individual thing. I found some of my best ideas are on a plane, right? Or, you know, at a time when the rest of the world is shut down like an Easter Sunday and I just got time in between family to think. I think that's really really important and I say easier said than done because it's a hamster wheel, right? Like we're on it all the time. The calls keep coming, the emails keep coming, the texts keep coming. Not to mention your family and your personal life that you're trying to balance. I think the other part of it is to make time to listen to others. I have a kind of a rule, we have 8,000 employees between WME Group and TKO. Anybody who wants a cup of coffee, you get it. You just send my office an email and we'll schedule you for 15 minutes. It may not be for a month because I'm on the road or I'm too busy or I'm traveling, but we will squeeze you in.
I mean, it's taken me months to get this interview. So like I get it, man. I get it. I get it.
