The $5 Billion Gamble: Mark Shapiro on merging WWE and UFC

Great to be with you, Brian. Great to be with you always. Yeah, I appreciate it.

They should have. We'll take that offline because I am down for that, Mark.

I got a bad line to Triple H and you'll be on in 2 seconds.

Yeah. I'll tell you I started as an intern with NBC Sports back in 1989. Actually doing a lot of events for Bob Costas. So, and Costas is still going strong as you know all too well. I was an intern over a summer. I worked on a lot of live events. I kind of got my chops. I sold New York Times newspapers over the phone at night to make money because in those days, Brian, they didn't pay you to be an intern. It was just college credit or nothing. And then ultimately I got a job as sort of a gofer at ESPN when they were launching ESPN2 in 1993 and worked my way up from there.

Yeah, you know, it was a pedigree. It was a foundation of storytelling. And there's no better storyteller than Costas and still one of the best interviewers today. News, sports, politics, you name it. And one of the most researched men you're ever going to see and meet. So, you really get those chops, right? You get those learnings. You get the right skills, the right habits, research, homework, like you do, pound the pavement, make relationships. And ultimately when you got in ESPN, what is it really? It's storytelling. It's journalism, right? They're breaking news and they're covering the news, but it's a lot of live events. It's a lot of studio, a lot of insight, a lot of reporting. And it really became the place of record. And I think working with him, who's such a journalist, but he's also a commentator, and he covers so many different cultural events, was really the best training I possibly could have had.

Yes, I did. I majored in communications, broadcast journalism. I had a minor in political science at the University of Iowa, but I went to college knowing that I wanted to be in sports broadcasting, sports journalism, right? So, I researched out what are the best schools, the best programs, the best curriculums, the best facilities. Iowa has the number one creative writing school in the country, and I'm from Chicago, so it was a Big Ten school, but not too far from home. And you know, I set the table there, and then while that was incredible training and again another good pedigree for what I would do, at the end of the day as you know, it's about experience, right? It's about getting out there, who you're meeting, different internships, really putting yourself ahead by having first real hands-on experiences that can't be taught in a classroom.

You know, I went to bed on Monday nights with a transistor radio underneath my pillow while listening to Monday Night Football.

Yeah. Even in junior high, somehow in my house there was a bedtime. And it was no more television, and your homework better be done. It was pretty strict, good discipline, good values from my parents. And you're in bed, but you got your hands wrapped on the radio, right? You didn't... And there were no highlights to get the next morning. There were no social clips. There were no... you're waking up to scores. You know, it was the newspaper, but you wanted to be in the moment, and that's just such a good byline, a good tagline on what sports is, right? These are in-person experiences that you want in real time. And they really resonate, and you remember them, and you don't want to get them kind of after the fact. And I think that sets us up pretty well at TKO now because we have WWE, we have UFC, we have PBR, we have IMG, which of course distributes all kinds of sports properties around the world. And of course we have On Location, which is the leader in premium experiential hospitality. And sports stands out in this AI world. It's very much AI proof because you want to be in it. And of course all the youth of today suffers from FOMO. So they want to be able to show people that they were in it.

Oh, that is crazy. Oh my god. The kids today, they can't even appreciate that. But you know what? I don't think they could appreciate too. Like so you arrived in the ESPN young executive, you got all these amazing ideas. Oh but yeah, but then you look up, there's like 75,000 layers of management above you. Like how did you make it through all of those layers to launch your new ideas?

It's funny you say that, because that is the real truth. Not everybody can be like you. Have the looks, have the presence, and really have the whole cadence, the package to be on air like you are. They say that every producer, truthfully, deep down is suffering from the fact that they wanted to be on air, and they couldn't make it. So, I was in high school, frankly, and we had our own TV studio. I mean, back then, we're talking in the '80s. That's like unheard of. And we programmed the local cable channel, which most communities it was just color bars when you turned to that channel. We programmed it and produced all the football games, the basketball games, and I was the play-by-play, and I also hosted a lot of the interview programs. So, in those days, I wanted to be the next Bob Costas. What happened was the internship at NBC went well. That moved me into live events. All of a sudden, I'm working on the Barcelona Olympics. I'm going to Wimbledon. My career started really climbing at a rapid pace. And when I came out of college, I realized, 'Wait, I'm so ahead here. I can keep going and probably be a producer in a couple of years, or I can turn back and try and go on air, but you're going to have to start your career in a really small town like the 200th market, you know, making bubkes.' And do I really want to give this up? So, I kind of buried the on-air aspiration and moved towards the production, the producing, the programming, which ultimately turned into management.

Look, for me, it starts with homework and hard work. I mean, that's what you were doing. Yeah, you took everything available to you to make those notes and be able to give the kind of counseling guidance that your clients needed or expected. Whatever the job is, today's environment, you've got to jump in with both hands and both feet. You got to be willing to get sweaty. You've got to be willing to put your blood and tears into it. There's no substitute for hard work. Yes, we have more mechanisms and devices and tools and resources to make our jobs more efficient, to get answers on the fly, but at the end of the day, it doesn't take away from the fact, it only supports the fact and the theory that you just have to sell out. You have to be all in. And I think today a lot of kids, it's a generalization, but they're coming out of school and things are a little easy and COVID slowed some things down and the 5-day work week or 7-day work week like we had, you know, isn't what it once was. But to me, that's opportunity. If you go sell out and you come into the office and you do the work and you do more than expected, right? If you get the assignment and go above and beyond and you're there and in person and available and responsive, you know, there's no telling where you can go. And AI might make it easier for you. So, learn AI, right? Learn what tools are out there. Be adaptive. Be curious at the end of the day. And at the same time, just really invite and embrace new technology because you have to be in touch, Brian. Like I'm in touch. I do a lot of reading, you know, I watch a lot of shows, I pay attention to the news, right? I'm up early to do that. I'm on the treadmill reading. Like I have to be up to speed if I'm going to do an interview with you. If I'm going to go about my day. If I'm going to have a lot of meetings with external parties. And that's really important to stay in touch of what's hot, what's trending. Otherwise, it's tough to really be innovative if you're not up to speed on all that.

Yeah, I mean, obviously now because I'm older, you know, it's different. But, you know, as you're climbing up the way, I can't tell you enough, like I'm just a... And this isn't like a political speech or position. I'm just a big believer in building great teams. You can't know everything. You can't be an expert on everything. You can't get to everything. The art of delegation is part of my recipe of success. In order to delegate, you have to have people that you trust to get the job done, right? That maybe are smarter than you are, right? Paying attention or in touch or out in front of trends more than you are, maybe better risk-takers more than you are, more innovative, more creative, more nuanced and experienced, different walks of life, diversity so important these days. And I can tell you that I have an art of building and surrounding myself with incredible people. And by the way, if they're not performing, they're out the door. Not like that. You put them on a path to recovery and hopefully rehab them and they're delivering what you need. But if they're not doing it, you're not doing them any favors to carry them. So, I'm a big believer in churning out my team to make sure I'm surrounded by the best and the brightest and not be threatened by that. Very important.

You have to make the time, which is easier said than done. Two-fold here. You have to make the time to have time in your life to just think. I don't care if you're walking the dog or you're on vacation, if you can get one, you know, it's a Saturday morning, you're up earlier than anybody else. So really just get out there and have free mind to think about what could we be doing that we're not? What should we be doing that we're not? Where are we behind when most people would expect us to be out in front? So it's an individual thing. I found some of my best ideas are on a plane, right? Or, you know, at a time when the rest of the world is shut down like an Easter Sunday and I just got time in between family to think. I think that's really really important and I say easier said than done because it's a hamster wheel, right? Like we're on it all the time. The calls keep coming, the emails keep coming, the texts keep coming. Not to mention your family and your personal life that you're trying to balance. I think the other part of it is to make time to listen to others. I have a kind of a rule, we have 8,000 employees between WME Group and TKO. Anybody who wants a cup of coffee, you get it. You just send my office an email and we'll schedule you for 15 minutes. It may not be for a month because I'm on the road or I'm too busy or I'm traveling, but we will squeeze you in.

You're just kidding everybody. That's not true. It was an immediate priority.

Is that crazy? I mean, it really is. The fact that PBR sells out at Madison Square Garden every single year for multiple nights, and for some it's a curiosity, it's a novelty, but you know what? For some it's western lifestyle, they live it, they breathe it, they believe in it, right? They're turned on by it, and some is just a family event. And we're all looking for those communal opportunities to have these shared experiences. I think PBR has benefits from having two stars. The star is the rider, right? Who's trying to stay on that bull and not get hurt. God forbid. And the other side is the bull itself, who are their own names and characters and have their own followings. So, look, it's over the course of a couple of hours, it's easy to understand, and it's something for you to cheer for. And now we have a team series, so we have all these fans getting behind different cities. So, it's become very provincial, like their city team. It's really catching on. It's across the country. It's year-round. It's now airing on Paramount Plus and CBS. So, we're really excited about the growth opportunity there.

Well, I think that's really the magic, you know, of TKO and what we do with live events. Right? Is we've taken a property like PBR or new property like the last few years with WWE coming into the fold, and we put you into our machine. Right? It's media rights. It's financial incentive packages, where different cities and provincialities are paying to bring our show to town because of the economic impact it brings to that region. Right? It's global partnerships. It's brands that want to get out in front of new consumers, right? That want to be relevant and are chasing with a lot of our properties, especially young men, which is the hardest to reach. It's consumer products and licensing, right? It's taking WWE superstars and UFC fighters and PBR bulls and making them storylines, making them personalities that you want to not just follow but buy a t-shirt or a tchotchke when you're with your family or your friends at the event.

Exactly. And that's part of the machine. We've got a history of doing it. We've got a huge track record. I mean, take just one thing for example, Brian, we've got $15 billion in the aggregate of all of our properties in terms of media rights deals wrapped up for the next 5 to 7 years. So, PBR, CBS and Paramount Plus, WWE's Netflix and ESPN. Obviously, much hay has been made about our UFC deal, 7 years, almost $8 billion with Paramount Plus and CBS and so on and so forth, right? We launched Zuffa boxing. So, you come into our machine and our consumers, our partners, our fans know that we are one-stop shopping for premier high-quality sports and entertainment.

The WWE, UFC, PBR, you know, in today's economic climate and obviously a lot going on from a geopolitical perspective and a lot going on at home here from an affordability perspective, we're still seeing massive uptick, maybe even more so of families and fans that want to come out and escape the day-to-day. And they're doing it through the lens of our sports and entertainment properties. So, we're seeing strong growth on our ticket yields, we're seeing sellouts across the board on our UFC numbered events and our Raw, SmackDown, NXT, and of course our premium live events at WWE. And PBR is having its best year in the last 5 years. So, that should tell you something in terms of demand, anticipation, and following and should bode well for years of long-term sustained growth. I would tell you that Vegas is 2 years in a row for WrestleMania 42. So, some of the challenges we had there is usually we move WrestleMania year after year to a new spot and that allows us to obviously grow and see the kind of economic impact we would expect. Maybe it's a mistake I made because Vegas was so huge last year and such a winner for our fans and the product that I said to Nick Khan, who runs the WWE, we got to go back to Vegas next year. Like we have to move New Orleans down the road and we got to come back to Vegas. But I mean Las Vegas, I don't need to tell you, is the mecca for great events. More and more events are moving there. Music has residencies and more and more sports teams, as evidenced by the NHL and soon-to-be Major Baseball, are popping up there with teams to come. Obviously, the Raiders are a massive success in Las Vegas. So, absolutely no regrets on going back there, but the only reason you're hearing some of, hey, it's not what it was last year, is because we're not benefiting from the first mover experience.

It is. It's going to go back to its OG ways of a new spot every year. And in fact, in 2027 we're going far away from the US. We're going to Saudi Arabia for WrestleMania. So, that's going to be a massive massive show. They're actually doing three shows this year, Brian, in Saudi. Three other events in anticipation building up back to your question, how do you build the following? Well, have more events. So, Saudi Arabia is doing three events this year. The following is just going to get bigger, right? The avidity is just going to grow, fan avidity. And then next year you bring the ultimate show to town and that should just be a tremendous spectacle.

Yeah, you know, I'll tell you I think the market has overreacted a little bit in terms of... don't get me wrong, Middle East what's going on isn't good for anybody or any business. I want to be clear about that. More importantly, for humanity. We're not like F1. We don't have a lot of events at this time right now that would be impacted or changed or moved or altered because of what's going on over there. We have an event at the end of June. That's our next event. We had Royal Rumble in January for WWE. We've got another event at the end of June. We have another UFC fight planned in the Middle East that will be actually by the time this airs we'll have already been announced. So, all systems go, but you know, as you'd expect, we're going to monitor the situation and if we have to make a move or have a schedule change, we will do the right thing by our audience and more importantly, by global affairs.

Look, he's everything. He's everything and more. I mean, he really is. And also, he gets back to you like that. Not just because he's on the board. That's like who he is. I'm not sure he sleeps, right? He's an investor, he's an entrepreneur, he's an actor, he's one of the biggest stars in the history of WWE. He's an owner in the UFL. I mean, this is... He's just a magnetic personality. And he's kind of what you see is what you get. He truly cares about his audience in a very real, personal, and meaningful way. So, we're thrilled to have him on the board. He brings a lot of value every day. And more importantly, when we need him to make a phone call to get some business done, that's a nice guy ringing somebody up. I can tell you that. It makes a big difference.

Yeah, it's all right. We're doing well. So, the good news is all systems go. But, yeah, you got to be careful. If we take a bad turn somewhere here or there, he won't be shy to make sure I know about it. And then it will be, 'Yes, sir. Yes, sir.'

It's insane, Frank. Kind of careful what you wish for is all I can say, right? We've got UFC Freedom 250, as we're calling it, on June 14th, which is Flag Day, which is the president's birthday. It's going to be on the South Lawn. I mean, you know, we're tearing up all the sod to put this in. And we got to be careful we don't in any way get in the way of the bunkers that are underneath that sod. Don't forget about that. There's a reason there usually aren't events... And not to mention safety, right? Hopefully you never have to use it. But that's there. So it takes a city, a country for all the preparation and all the due diligence to do this just right. But we're working very close with the administration. They've been exceptional partners. They're really excited about this. As you know, the president is a major UFC fan. We've got a card of seven fights. And it's really the best... It's a marketing spectacle, right? I mean much has been made about the $60 million roughly that we're spending to make this event happen and the fact that we're actually going to lose some money on this. Well, we're not losing anything. What this is going to bring to the UFC from an awareness standpoint, from a sampling standpoint, from just a priority standpoint, moving us up on the ladder of mainstream sports and entertainment, the global coverage we're going to have from just all the news outlets that are going to be covering this event from a news perspective, not even sports. This is going to be a cultural impact like no other. A true spectacle, an amazing stage. We're going to take advantage of every minute and I'll tell you this, we're doing the day before a music fest at the ellipse. Tickets are free. It's a registration. You have to sign up and the first 60,000 get tickets. On the first couple of hours of putting those tickets up for registration, 56,000 people signed up in the first few hours and we only hold 60,000. So I can just tell you this folks are amped up and excited for what this is going to be and Dana White has just put together an extraordinary card.

Yeah, one of the reasons Dana and the president are so close is because when a lot of folks didn't believe in the UFC, right? Or thought it was, you know, too violent, quote unquote, and couldn't get legislated, right? Couldn't get approvals to bring the show to certain states. President Trump was the first guy to say, 'Bring it to the Taj Mahal in New Jersey. Like bring it here. I'll put it on.' And he's also in the WWE Hall of Fame. Folks don't know that. So he's a massive fan of both these properties, helped Vince McMahon in many ways build and spread the word on WWE and build the fan base into what it is. And he's done the same thing with Dana. But I would tell you like he went to the Miami event back in April. And he doesn't leave the table. I mean he's sitting octagon side. Like at his age I got to go to the bathroom three times, right? Not him. He doesn't want to miss one moment. And he actually turned to Dana and said, 'Hey, why isn't Derrick Lewis, one of our fighters, heavyweight, why isn't he fighting on the main card at the White House? Like can you add that?' And we added a fight just for him. I mean like he knows the fighters, he knows the storylines, he knows the rivalries. Like he's not there just for show and tell. He's a true fan. And I think we've really benefited because of the attention he has brought to the UFC.

Well, he's a big sports enthusiast, to your point. I mean, he really is. When he shows up to the US Open or the College Football National Championship, it may be a pain for the fans because of security and how hard it is, how much longer it takes to get in, but he's actually coming not just for face time. He's coming because he's a fan. He loves sports, and you know, we're happy to have him there. And it's not about political views or any kind of stance or any kind of position. He's the leader of the free world, and he's, you know, one of the biggest fans of the UFC. We'll take it.

Yeah, look, I was at ESPN, which is a division of the Walt Disney Company. And by the way, it was printing money, right? This was at a time when ESPN was worth more than the rest of the Walt Disney Company combined. And I remember I took this job to be CEO of a flailing Six Flags, like on the verge of bankruptcy. And the cable guy, back in the days of cable, came to fix something at my house and said to my wife, 'Did I read your husband's leaving ESPN for Six Flags? Like, that it's in the toilet. How could that be?' Look, I love startups, but I also like fix-its, Brian. And like you, I grew up on Six Flags Great America in Chicago. And Kingda Ka was in Jersey, it's now retired. And Bob Pittman was running the company at that time. It had gone through Marriott, it had gone through Time Warner, and it was an incredible like bigger than Disneyland closer to home. And it lost its way and took on too much debt and the experience suffered and moms turned away and frankly was unsafe for a period of time. And all of a sudden, you know, a team comes to me and says, 'Hey Mark, you got some Disney experience, you know something about theme parks.' I knew this much. But you know how to build brands, you know how to build followings and fan bases and you build great teams. Can you come and fix this? And I knew going in that a holistic reorganization was in the cards. And JP Morgan and Jamie Dimon helped me effectuate that ultimately. But first we needed a turnaround of the brand, right? We needed to clean up the parks. We needed to bring moms back. We needed to make it safe again and affordable. And we spent the better part of three years doing just that. And once we achieved that and the company was free cash flow positive for the first time in 50 years, we then put it through a holistic reorganization, got rid of the debt, and the next 10-15 years they crushed it. I left, but we gave them the pathway to be successful. So, I love that experience. I love the 32,000 employees who'd been there, a lot of lifers if you will, and they really cared, they were really passionate, and I don't need to tell you, whatever you're trying to win at, you're in a sports event, you're running for office, you're overseeing a big-time global company, if your people believe, if culture is good, if they're collaborating and communicating and creative and they feel like they're getting paid for performance and they're positive and passionate, you're unstoppable.

Brian, great to be with you. Thanks so much for the time. Thanks for having me on and a big fan of your series, so I'm looking forward to the next guest.