This weeks Hear Me, See Me. Podcast video is with Paul Jones from Paul Jones Project

Hello, hello Stuart, and hello to Hear Me, See Me podcast. I'm happy to be here. It's all quite fresh with us because we met because you asked me to come on your IGTV series, PJP. We only just recently did that. I believe recording this today is the day that it's out.

It was an accident really. I left school and I was a rebel, so I left school with one GCSE in pottery. That scene from Ghost inspired me. I left school with one GCSE in pottery and didn't really know what to do. My parents were at a loss with me. My dad gave me two pounds every day to go to the job center because he said he wasn't giving me any money. At the time I felt hard done by, but it was the best thing he ever could have done. Every day I was going to the job center and I managed to get a job in the biggest department store in my town. I remember going home and telling my parents I got a job in an office in this department store. They were like, 'What? You, with your one GCSE in pottery, have managed to get a job in the biggest department store in Wolverhampton?' I was working in the office as the post boy. My job was to take the post around to all the departments. A 20-minute job would take me two hours. My boss would ask why it was taking so long, so she came with me. Every time I went into an office, the ladies would say, 'Sit down, have a biscuit, we'll make you a cup of tea.' She said, 'Paul, you are not here to talk to people.' After that day, I wasn't allowed to talk. I just had to sit in the office and work.

Then I met a dear friend in a pub. I was moaning about the job and the fact that I couldn't talk. She said, 'Why don't you be a Saturday lad in the salon?' I did two Saturdays. I remember seeing the ladies come in looking drab, and they would leave looking glamorous and happy. I remember the basins were adjacent to the door. I remember shampooing, watching this glamorous lady leave, and thinking, 'I want to do that. I want to be able to make women look amazing and make them happy.' That was how I started. I was 16, so it was 1996. I went home and told my parents I was leaving this job in a prestigious department store to go and work in a salon. They were horrified and threatened to throw me out of the house. They said men don't do hair, you need to get a job in a factory. Being the rebel that I am, I dug my heels in. 24 years later, I'm still hairdressing.

I had a few creations. You go through the spectrum, you go through the whole color chart, every sort of length and style. I've had some crackers. I'm so grateful that in the '90s when I was experimenting with different hairstyles, there were no camera phones. I've got two awful ones because both times I got married, I had a perm. So they're immortalized in both of my wedding photos. You'd think I'd have learned from the first time. I love a perm, I look great.

I worked there for about four years and then I left. I was in salons for 18 years and I worked in 18 salons because I could never stay in one place. I was never very good at being in one place. I used to get bored, I still do, I get bored really quickly. I would get offered another job and I would take it. I had a loyal client base that would follow me from salon to salon. I think when I was about 26 or 27, I got a job at Nicky Clarke. Up to that point, I never really understood hairdressing. When I went to work at Nicky Clarke, I was there for four years, which for me was a record. I didn't really understand hairdressing until I went there. They strip it back, make it simple, and I really understood the craft of hairdressing. Nicky and his team taught me how to blow dry properly. It was all very classic, which isn't really what I'm about now, but looking back, it was such a good foundation that 14 years later, I still use a lot of the foundations I learned there. I stayed there and then I started working for myself in 2013.

What happened was I was managing a salon for a celebrity hairdresser that will remain unnamed, and I was miserable. I ended up leaving there. I was working in this salon and I was miserable. I always had this little dream in my head that Nicole Kidman would walk in. It didn't end up being Nicole Kidman's hair stylist, but why is Nicole Kidman ever going to be in Birmingham? This lady came in for a blow dry. I blow-dried her hair and she loved it and said, 'I actually work for Harvey Nichols and I'm here organizing a fashion show. How do you fancy doing the hair?' I was like, 'Okay.' I'd never done anything like it before. I went and did it. I had 24 models. There was me and one other person that did the hair. She loved it and said, 'How do you fancy coming to Knightsbridge to do the show?' I'd never been to Knightsbridge, so I was like, 'Okay.' I went to Knightsbridge and I did it again, 24 models, and this time it was only me. When I look back, it's terrifying because if any of those hairdos would have been bad, because I didn't know what I was doing really, I didn't have the skill set I've got now. But I did it, and it rolled from there. I left the salon I was miserable at, went to work at another salon, and he told someone I was a second-rate session stylist and I would never amount to anything.

It's funny because every time I accomplish something in my career, or I travel somewhere, it's always that voice, 'second-rate session stylist that never amount to anything.' He told me I couldn't go and do a show, so I was like, 'Okay.' I went and found a chair I could rent in the city, moved all my clients, and just walked out. I was like, 'You won't tell me what to do.' I rented a chair and then my career kind of progressed from there. I was my own boss finally. I could choose when I worked. Then I moved to London. Here I am today, seven years later, full of gratitude and blessings that I am where I am today because I'm a second-rate session stylist that would never amount to anything.

It was funny because when I found out he'd said that, it never upset me. It was definitely fire beneath my wings. In that salon, he used to play Fashion TV. On the TV came a show, it was a Chanel show in Edinburgh. I remember looking at the hair, and Sam McKnight had done the hair. He was spectacular. The hair, he made them all look like Queen Elizabeth. In that salon, I saw that show, and I then went on to be on Sam's team for five years. It was five years of a blessed time. I was so fortunate. It was the best working time of my career, being on Sam's team. Again, that was in the salon where he said I'm a second-rate session stylist and I would never amount to anything. But I recently added him on Facebook. He added me recently and I accepted. My friend who knows the story said, 'I can't believe you accepted him.' I was like, 'Why not?' Every time I post a picture of a cover I've done or something amazing I've done, let him see what a second-rate session stylist that won't amount to anything can do.

Yeah, and I think forgiveness as well. Life isn't this, you don't go from there to there, it's this. Especially when you live a life of a freelancer like I do, and especially the year that we've had as a freelancer, you haven't got a wage coming in. I don't think any freelancer would sit in front of you, Stuart, and say, 'Yes, my life has been like this.' It doesn't work like that. You have to hustle, you have to work, and you have to stay positive. I use gratitude a lot, and forgiveness, like you said, is a beautiful thing. I don't care that he said that. I'm actually grateful he said it. If anything, I'm glad that he's going to say... Sorry about this, I don't normally sound as sexy as this, I've got man flu. Don't just see the hanky come out.

Yeah, but as well, I think it's how you've used the time. I remember the first lockdown, I didn't know what I was going to do because I'd been traveling the world and I was so exhausted from travel. Then the lockdown happened and I was like, 'What am I going to do?' A friend of mine was like, 'Why don't you start a TikTok?' I was like, 'No, TikTok's for kids.' She persisted in bugging me to do it, so I ended up doing it. One of my videos got 3.6 million views. I was like, '3.6 million people wanted to watch me do a messy bun?' But they did. I used that time, I worked on my social media, making TikToks. I used to do videos on home hair masks, how to make hair masks from ingredients in your kitchen. It was how you used the time. I've spoken to so many people during my Instagram series. One guy has turned his shop into a coffee hatch so he can still sell coffee, Joe Jones. Another lady, an amazing lady who works in PR, she owns Beauty Banks, which gives... I know, yeah, of course, you know Joe. She did Helping Hands, which was giving toiletries to frontline workers. All these people did amazing things with that time. One of the great things is it gave us time to reflect. It's okay, it's not been great, but new year's time when we've all moved on, we're going to look back and think.

I know, I get my family telling me off when I swear. So I'd rather not have the hassle from them. I do swear far too much and every now and then I'll rein myself in. But yeah, the upbringing. I totally agree with you that your PJP, the whole principle of it was getting to the point where everything was feeling negative. It's crucial for someone like you to come up, go, 'Right, hang on a minute, we've got a lot of positives here.' That's it. Going back to something you said to me, you said, 'In all the amazing work you do yourself, there's always hope.' It's so true. There's always a way out, there's always a solution. When you have a negative mindset, it's so much harder to navigate your way through. Don't get me wrong, there's some days, especially this last lockdown, I think so many people have struggled with it because we had a taste of freedom and life getting back to normal and then it was kind of snatched away from us. But when you keep a positive mindset and you do gratitude and you do all these different things to exercise getting yourself out of bed, if you can just get yourself out of bed and go for a walk, that is going to clear your head and do wonders for you. But yeah, so I always think that there is always a way through and positivity is key. It is. The only thing is, I think, be wary of false positivity. I don't trust these people who are 100% 'I'm always positive' because I think we are natural pressure cookers that need to let off steam. Sometimes it's allowing yourself to have those times, but don't dwell in them, don't let it last. There's nothing wrong with not being okay. It is fine to not be okay. It is fine to have a day where you want to feel like crap and stay in your pajamas on the sofa watching Friends, and that's fine. But as long as that isn't prolonging and you're not digging yourself in deeper. There is always light at the end of the tunnel. We're coming to the end now because we've got just over three weeks until hairdressers are all released and we can get back to what we love. So there's always light at the end of the tunnel. With the PJP that I've done, that was the whole message. What has Josh Wood been doing in lockdown? What is Neil Moody and all these other people doing?

Yeah, definitely. I think what a difference it made when they announced the 12th of April. I mean, it was like the world being lifted off your shoulders by them announcing that, because then people can get back to work. And hairdressers have had it harder because they won't chop the back like they have with all the other businesses. So these people that own salons are having to find money to pay their rent and everything else. So for them knowing they can get back to work and get making money again, it's a blessing.

Exactly. And for me, nothing makes me happier than work because I love what I do. It's never a chore for me to go to work. I never get to the end of the week and think, you know, like when you speak to some people and they're like, 'Oh, I'm so glad it's Friday.' I never get that Friday feeling, and I never want it either. If I didn't love what I did, I would go and find something else that I love and do that instead.

You're not messing about there, right? No, there were so many times. I remember leaving one salon and I got escorted off the premises, which was quite funny. So me moving salons that much, it goes to show that I was always meant to kind of do what I do now, because with being a freelance hair stylist, you're never in the same place, you're always moving around. I travel a lot. And when I was in school, the only thing I ever really wanted to do was travel. It was funny because my sister read my old school report the other day, and in the school report I'd written, 'I either want to be an air steward or a TV presenter like Noel Edmonds.' I mean, I could have picked someone a bit better looking like Phillip Schofield or something. Oh, I picked Noel Edmonds. My dream job was to be Noel Edmonds.

And it makes you appreciate what you do. It makes you not take anything for granted, especially when you're in salons and you've got a 12-client day. But I think everyone's going to go back to work with a new vigor and a new zest for life. Everyone's going to want to get creating and doing crazy things, and seeing the people that you build such relationships with your clients. It's been a real shift over the last few years. I remember when you just worked in a salon, there was no freelance at all. I worked in a salon for five years and then I went freelance, and it wasn't really done much then. But it's really gone, the industry has sort of fractured out now. It's almost half and half now of people. But there was also what you said about support, a lot of people fell through the cracks. The people that were self-employed and not getting the help from the government, which has been really difficult for them. I know a group of my volunteers in Bedfordshire have had a real problem with their local council. And that's been the struggle, isn't it? Some people with their home salons and things, they don't pay rates, so they've not been able to claim anything. And I think it's like what I said earlier, it doesn't matter how successful you are or how much money you've got in the bank, this lockdown has been hard for everyone. It's filtered right through to the assistants in the salon, people that have been made redundant, salons that have had to close. But I do think there's going to be a boom. When we get back to work in April, there's going to be a boom. This work is going to boom in all areas of hairdressing.

Yeah. And what you said earlier about you always had your clients and they were so loyal and they would follow you from one to one, that's quite a unique thing that we have, the relationship we have with our clients in our industry, as opposed to sort of like the butchers. You don't feel guilty if you go and buy sausages somewhere else. But I think what we do is way more than a haircut or a blow dryer. Obviously my life is very different from 10 years ago when I was in salons. But whether that person in my chair is an A-list celebrity or a little old lady down the road, they're still people. Every person is, there's no difference between them, that's the way I look at it. When people say, 'Oh, do you get nervous when you do blah blah blah,' and I'm like, no, they're just people. I think in my whole career I've met two people, and both times I didn't actually do their hair, but I was kind of starstruck. I was like, oh my gosh. And that was Kylie Minogue and Joanna Lumley.

Yeah, I didn't do either of their hair, but I was literally lost for words when I met both of them. But apart from that, they weren't sat in my chair, and I feel like if they were sat in my chair, I probably wouldn't have been as nervous.

Yeah, because I think you do build a relationship, and especially when you are doing celebrities, because you do have to get... it's about trust, because you're in that person's space. And to famous people, the most important thing is privacy. And you know, it's a place of honor really that you're in their sacred space, and you do keep everything that happens to you out of respect for that person. Well, I do, out of respect for that person. It's a unique thing to do, but it's no different I think to when you're in a salon and you do build these relationships with people. And I know I did. I got invited to clients' weddings. I think that's the one thing I love most about hairdressing is people. If you took people out of the equation and I was just doing hair on doll's heads all day, I'd hate that.

Exactly. Like 40-something years now, I still love what I do. How lucky is that?

But it's the same way I fell in love with it, watching ladies leave the salon that had their hair done and looking glamorous and happy. And I still love making women look glamorous, and I still love the happiness that it brings.

Well, I mean, it's that thing, isn't it? That you do remember the one that... but you learn your greatest lessons from the ones that aren't happy, because you never make... well, I mean, I don't, I never make the same mistakes twice. And even at this stage in my career, you still don't get it right every time, you know, we're human, we make mistakes. And I think one of the greatest lessons I ever learned when I started being a session hairstylist was that one of the people I first started assisting years ago said to me, 'Never be afraid to start again.' And that was such great advice, and I've never forgot it. Because when you are doing a hair up and it's not going right, take it down and start again. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't matter. And I remember being in salons and I used to, I never used to put hair up, I never used to like doing it. And the stress and the pressure in a salon when you've got 45 minutes to put someone's hair up. But if I could go back in time and say to myself, you know, it's not hard, don't, because once you stress, it makes the whole thing worse. So just take it down, have a breather, and start again. And then you're probably going to create something amazing.

I couldn't braid. I think 10 years ago I couldn't braid, and I'd always be like, ah, I'd pass it on to someone else in the salon. And then it's the one thing I'm actually really good at, braiding. And I practiced and I practiced. During the first lockdown, I'd get my doll's head out and I was doing cornrows every day just so I could get better at the things I'm not great at. Because I don't think any hairdresser could sit in front of you and say, 'I'm brilliant at everything,' because no one's brilliant at everything. There's so many different areas of hairdressing, whether you specialize in textured hair, colored hair, all these different areas. So it's like there's always room to improve and there's always room to get new skills. And you really want to make sure that anyone walks through that door, you can do their hair. And that's why I learned about textured hair, curly hair, fine hair, thick hair, braids. And especially when you do what I do, because you never really know who's going to be sat in your chair. Back when I was doing fashion weeks, it would be crazy. Sam would just kind of be like, 'Oh, grab whoever,' and you'd have to grab who you'd say and do their hair. And I never wanted to say, 'Sam, I can't do textured hair.' I would just crack on and do it to my best ability. And when I first started doing shows, I made sure I assisted the people that were doing the hair types I didn't understand. So when I got in a position where I was going to be heading up models for Sam, I would be able to do it, whatever it was. And there were so many types. Fashion week is a boiling pot of pressure, and no one feels the pressure more than the guy at the top, which was Sam. I was on his team for five years, and you wanted to make that journey for Sam as seamless as possible to ease the pressure from him. So if he yelled at you, 'Paul, can you grab that girl,' I wanted to grab that girl and do it and not say, 'Sam, I can't do that hair type.' So I made sure that I could do whoever was sat in my chair.

Oh, I mean, like I said, the five years I had doing shows, I traveled the world, and it was probably the best working career of my life. Because I worked in 18 salons in 18 years, but when I got on Sam's team, I stayed there for five years because I was just so happy. And I was blessed that I got to meet some amazing people and work with... Sam's team is the nicest team you could ever get on. They're lovely, and they encourage you and they want you to grow as an artist as well. And I did. In that team, I was able to flourish and grow and learn. It was the best five years of my life in that team. The people on the team, you spent so much time with them. There were seven of us, and we would be together sometimes in studios for 18 hours just together. And on top of that, we would be traveling, and on top of that, we would all be knackered, and on top of that, we would have a call time at 4:00 a.m. when we got to bed at 2:00. But you become like family, and you look out for each other. If someone is tired and struggling, then you jump in and you help them. It was truly, that time I had doing fashion weeks and being with Sam, it was the best time in my life.

Exactly. You can only go so far on the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, which I've managed to do for 40-odd years now.

We were chatting about It's a Sin.

Yeah, I thought it was great. I loved it. I thought it was very well made. Like I said, I feel like I wanted more episodes at the end of it, but that was probably because I just didn't want it to finish. But I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, because what took me with that particularly was, as I said before, anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, they're doing a good thing. Because I also think that's true in life. You almost have to feel uncomfortable to move. If you're too comfortable, you just go like this. But when you feel uncomfortable, especially in a career sense, it kind of scares you a little, then it's a great thing.

But I think it's ignorance. I think a lot of it's ignorance and you're not educating yourself. And I think that's the great thing about these shows now, is that they do educate people. People can watch and learn about transsexuals and they can learn about AIDS and HIV and all these different things.

Yeah. Well, to be honest, I can't thank you enough for having me on, PJP.

Stu, I just want to say thank you for having me on, firstly. But secondly, I can't wait to come down and do some haircuts for homeless with you. So I want to come down and spread a bit of joy and meet some people and see what you really do. So thank you for having me on, and good luck with everything that you do.