Brian Grazer in conversation with Ted Sarandos at Live Talks Los Angeles

When we first talked about doing this, I was an immediate yes. Brian will attest to that, because we're friends, but also because I'm a huge admirer of not just your work that we got to see in that reel, but also everything that's making that all work. We're both curious people. That's the common thread. I think I met Brian as a subject of your curiosity, because it's a great thing that you reach out to people you just find interesting, read about somewhere, and say, 'I want to meet those people,' and they usually will come. Yes, like I did. Yeah, I mean, it takes a while and takes some effort. In order to think about you and try to be capable of having a good conversation, I research you, read a little bit, and I get a sense of some context so at least I'm asking good questions and something can come to life. That first meeting actually ties right back to this book, because it's about those kind of meetings, and I'm doing it face to face. I'm sure you get flooded with emails from people who want to meet you and have coffee with you and ask you a question. They know I do this discipline, so conversely I should do that. Meet everybody? Well, people usually... what I do in that quest is, if somebody says, 'I want to get together with you the way you reach out to other people, will you meet me?' I used to say yes, but not really mean it. No, that's not right. Let me be really honest. I feel like you have to capture somebody's interest. Just to say, 'Hey, I want to meet you,' doesn't qualify. I think just the way when somebody says... I could be going too far, you should stop. No, please, no. I like when someone says, 'I just trust my instincts.' Well, are they informed instincts? They're informed instincts. Well then that's one thing, but just going, 'Hey, I trust my instincts,' that feels a little bit like a hat to me. So you have no reason to trust their instincts yet. Yeah, exactly. So let's go over to the book. Quick, why this book, why now? This is your New York Times bestseller. You're interested in people. We've been people. Our barrage of what you had to say. Why on this, why this topic, and why now?

I didn't even think about it. It was originally called 'Eye Contact: The Art of Human Connection,' and then... so it basically lives in the space of the title itself, but it's currently called 'Face to Face: The Art of Human Connection.' But it happened in sort of this flashpoint moment that created this epiphany for me. It was only two years ago. We had a new person that was working at our house. Her name was Mary, and I didn't ever really know Mary. She had only been there a couple of months, and I'm running around. So Mary says to my wife, 'I really like Brian.' And my wife says, 'Well, do you know him very well?' And she said, 'Well, I don't know him very well, but every time he talks to me, he looks me straight in the eyes, and it makes me feel like a human being.' And I just thought about the power of that, the simplicity and power of it. And I thought, wow, by looking at somebody right in the eyes with a sincere, interested way, you're immediately validating that person as being a human being, and then you can relate to that person, and conversely you to them. And I started to think it was like this crazy set of cinematic things where I thought, well, every one of those conversations that people granted me, these thousands of people over the 35 years, nothing would have really happened. I wouldn't have gained any insight. They wouldn't have given me their heart or allowed me to access their heart, and mine theirs, unless the bridge of eye contact existed as a starting point. So I thought, wow, that's just like the Wi-Fi of human connection is actually looking at somebody to start. And then I just realized how important it is. The only way you can move people is through their heart, and the only way you can reach their heart is if you're connecting with them. So it's this sort of vicious cycle, this kind of simple equation. I pulled a quote in the book. It sounds like something Oprah must have read before, maybe not. It's: 'When we look someone in the eyes, really look at them, we are telling them, I see you. We're recognizing their humanity, and in turn we have the chance to recognize ours.' And that's such a beautiful summation of something that we often take for granted, because in a time when we all feel like we have a million relationships, a million contacts, friendships, and people online, it's easier than ever to get to people, but harder than ever to have that human connection.

It is. I mean, that's sort of the cultural center of the book for sure. I mean, look, we live, as you know, because of technology and the power of technology, we have these smartphones and smart tablets, and we have so much social media, and we're able to connect with people digitally, but we're living in the loneliest generation of all, and it keeps us sending into becoming a more lonely, disenfranchised world that we're living in, across every age. Particularly Millennials, they've done polls that they admit that at least 25% of all Millennials actually say that they are paralyzed by loneliness. And of course in London, they have a Minister of Loneliness. Yeah, so serious. The Brits do.

Wow. No. Well, my daughter is here. She would say I cannot be alone. But now, because actually in truth, I'm really the happiest time of my life right now. Great wife, and these kids that are really materializing in the way that they're feeling fulfilled themselves, and I get to make these more stories instead of less, and documenting in all these different forms. I can be alone because I'm really happy. I'm really happy and I'm at peace, so I can be alone. Was it not always the case? It was never. I had this guy, of course, when I did these curiosity conversations. I've done the curiosity conversation for over 35 years. For 10 years, 8 years, I had someone that I called my cultural attaché, and he was the one that sort of helped make these meetings happen. I'd say, 'This is the subject of anthropology. I want to learn about flow state,' whatever. They said, 'Great job.' This was a great, amazing job. Why did he quit? But I would make him sleep over. I'd say, 'You have to sleep over.' And sometimes, I know this could be dicey. He's a guy. I would have him sleep like if we're at the Cannes Film Festival, and he couldn't get a lot of rooms, it'd be a cot right there. Thrilled, by the way. That's a true story. Actually, because I produced 'The Da Vinci Code,' which did really, really well, but had horrific reviews, particularly in France. So I was just like I was in a state of trauma. I mean, we had a press junket. I did one of the 35 interviews, and I'm so insulted. I said, 'I can't do anymore.' I go, 'Run. I can't do any more because you have 35 more in all these bungalows.' I go get the right anyway. So normally, being alone was not my favorite thing. Finally, at this point in my life, I can do it. So there's a nice bit in the book as well about the whole notion of working on connections and working on relationships. Is this important to your being as health or anything else?

Our partnership is the longest in Hollywood history. It literally started in 1980. That's a really long time.

Yeah, I do have friends. Yeah, I mean, friends for a long time. Like dude Bob, who you're gonna interview here, you and yeah, a long time. And also you've been quite disciplined about spending time together. Yes, having a meal and getting together on a regular basis. And yeah, I think it matters. Super healthy, honest, real friendships. I even instituted a while ago with seven guys, which I think you knew about.

Well, you're not gonna have eight. Oh, eight? Yes.

But what, by the way, because I was interested in that fact about you and your high school. What's the common thread? How does it stay together? I mean, what's the common thread you guys share?

How does that play?

Yeah, well, that actually speaks to two points. One is that by having human connection, you realize that we sort of all... I always realize that once you're meeting somebody in another country, or by going anywhere, or meeting people that have disciplines that are way different than yours or occupations, you demystify the language or the culture that they're in, but you realize that you have a lot in common just as a species. You care about human respect, you care about love. There's certain things that you absolutely care about that we all access. People want to be safe, they don't want to be afraid of things, they want to have enough money so that they can provide. I think we all want the same things, we just have very different ideas how to get there. But at the end of the day, when you boil it down, if you start from the place of someone you like and respect, then all the other stuff doesn't seem as toxic.

Yes, exactly. So they were referring to in the book, which I'm sure you guys will be reading tonight. I'm always in favor of a joke. So anyway, as a kid, I was acutely dyslexic, so I couldn't answer any questions because they all required reading. I couldn't read a word. And so when the teacher looked in your direction, I would look away, I would go to the bathroom, I would talk to... I'd even get in trouble. I would do the entire spectrum of things that were diversionary so that I could avoid the worst shame of all, which is to be called upon and asked to go to the board and be completely incapable of performing, and then people would talk behind your back. That's not a good thing. So I became very resourceful. And then when I was able to gradually read, which again was the threshold around the fifth grade, once I could start to read, I really looked at people, and I found that I could learn so much by feeling somebody's energy, by reading their body language or physiognomy, because then you know whether things are working or not, or they're holding your interest. There's just so much information that you get when you actually look at somebody and you're in that moment with people. And that is the thing that's pretty scarce right now that I think is going to be... if you want to be very cynical, the acceleration of technology is going to cause so many things that only the elite might really have the privilege of feeling, like joy and all that, because everything else can be manufactured in some way. So anyway, I did that. And then by meeting with people, once I could read and talk to people, then I thought, wow, I could use them. They are like human tech. They're used to have these relationships, and I could learn so much more, and then I can create this sort of curiosity system. And I did that right after college. I asked myself a rhetorical question the day I graduated from USC. I said, 'Did I learn anything?' And I don't think I did. I must have learned something. And I thought, well, I guess I learned to cope with larger populations of people, because college is bigger than high school. I must have learned from one teacher, Professor Dave, Dr. Milton Walpa. It was a very popular class. I gave classes of about 250 people, and it was an abnormal psychology class. I was in the field of psychology. And I thought maybe I should try to meet him. I never got to meet him because no one really got to meet him in a class that size. So I made it a journey to meet Milton Walpa, and it was very difficult. So I eventually just waited outside his summer school class and said, 'I'm the guy that has been calling and sending you letters.' And he said, 'Well, you already graduated though. What do you want with me?' I said, 'Well, we have a quick cup of coffee.' And then I turned that coffee into an hour-long conversation, and I realized that I learned almost as much in that one hour than I did in the entire class. That's not to mitigate the class itself, it's just that in these really intense, focused conversations, you really do forget time and place, and you're really in the moment with somebody, and it becomes something kind of special. People do share their valuable insights. They do get to a place where they become unprotected, and they tell you things that really matter, or this single moment that was a threshold moment in their career. And conversely, if you're a good communicator, you share that. So you always want to share those gifts with other people. And I still to this day do a few things. I still, when I go to a dinner party or even a social event, I bring three... I put it in my notes on my phone, three subjects, at least three subjects. They could be anecdotes just to start a conversation if there's nothing to say, just to be interesting. And I think that I'm constantly burning myself with information in the hopes of creating a better curation system to tell stories, to gather insights that could be a fresh perspective on a subject that people think has been traveled before. Or even like 'The Restless Developer,' which was a favorite show of yours, yes, which Ted championed and eventually got it and did what Amanda life. Yeah, you did. You resuscitated it, and everybody appreciates you so deeply for it. But I mean, people didn't really want to do that show, but I said, 'Don't you root for family to be together?' And they go, 'These people are such big hooks, they're so unusual.' I said, 'But still, I pitched the theme.' Because when you fail at the story part with the network, then you say, 'Okay, let's pitch a theme. Don't you run for love or family?' So all those things sort of feed me.

I know. And I did know that our family was very... I was very not a great student also. Chaos at home, parents always fighting and bickering. It was always chaotic. And my grandmother seemed to be the only person on the planet who understood me or knew or was interested in what I was interested in. And I found great confidence in my relationship with my grandmother. Which is similar to the same thing.

Yeah, that's not good. Yeah, I had the same problem, incidentally. I mean, I wrote a couple drafts of 'Splash,' but I really wouldn't let people see it because it was good. I just wanted to create evidence so someone didn't steal it. But I too wasn't a great writer. But I would read myself and I would say, 'Well, if I didn't write this, I would stop reading right here.'

Did you tell him the truth?

Well, thank you. I mean, I do think it's one of those things for me. I'm as surprised as they are that I'm doing what I'm doing some of the time. You definitely relate to everyone I'm talking to down the chain, so it's nice. I was gonna read a list, and I am okay, but it's really remarkable this body of work. The true numbers, over four billion dollars at the box office. Your movies all come back more than that. I think it's like 14... 13 and a half billion. But billions. What did that? Damn the internet. Oh, Dean billion dollars. But I want to talk about a couple of things, if you don't mind. Some games. I think everyone wants to hear about these. First, I'm gonna indulge myself because you made 'Bowfinger.' Wow. Okay. And I wanted to talk about 'Bowfinger' for a second, just because these are two of the most talented people on the planet, Steve Martin and Eddie Murphy. I think these are their best performances, both of their best performances in that movie. Wow. What for you? Tell me about how that came together. What made you excited about seeing them together?

Okay, I'm glad you really asked this question. No one ever asks this question. So about 'Bowfinger.' Steve Martin and I became friends after doing the movie 'Parenthood' together. And then one day, he declared we'd be friends. He said, 'We're going to be friends.' I go, 'Okay, how do we do that?' He says, 'We're going to talk almost every day.' So I said okay. So we did. But he even talked like three minutes. He'd talk and then go, 'I gotta go.' I go, 'Wow, okay.' We had lunch one day, and I said, 'Steve, in this friendship that we have, we have to talk more than three minutes on the phone. I don't want to have a time limit, because friends are open-ended.' This is really true. So that was a breakthrough for us. And then one day, he said, 'I wrote a script. I don't know if you'd like it or not. Just read it as a friend.' So I go okay. I don't even know what a 'Bowfinger' is. But it was a French restaurant in Paris. So anyway, I read it, and I think it's hilarious. It's so funny. And he said, 'Well, who plays who?' He goes, 'Well, I'm gonna play the hustler guy. That's who I'm gonna be. And then the role is written for either Keanu Reeves or Johnny Depp. It's an action star.' I swear to God. I go, 'Oh, okay.' And I'd already had some success with Eddie Murphy, and I love Eddie Murphy. And I said, 'Well, what do you think of Eddie Murphy?' And he goes, 'Love him. He's great, brilliant.' And so I said, 'What if we gave it to him just to read?' He goes, 'Sure, why not?' So I give it to Eddie Murphy, and he likes Steve Martin and thinks he's talented. And he said, 'I like it. I'd be into it.' And I go, 'Fantastic.' So I call up Steve. I go, 'Eddie Murphy read it, and he really likes it, and he really wants to play Kit Ramsey, the leading role.' I go, 'Amazing.' And then Eddie goes, 'But I really want to do the other guy, the goofy brother. That guy.' I go, 'I'll tell Steve.' So I say to Steve, 'Forget Keanu Reeves, all that went away. Now it's Eddie Murphy.' And then Steve goes, 'Yeah, let him play that role. That's perfect.' Then what happened is I loved it so much that I was going to guarantee with my own personal money, because at the time, Universal didn't feel it the way I felt it. And I was deeply passionate. In some ways, thank God I didn't use my money. But it broke even. It did better than that. It wasn't a giant hit, but it was a success, I guess. And I know we all loved it, and that really matters. And the story itself of Eddie playing this character that was written for somebody else, it shows how the aperture can widen. To the degree that you love talking to people, both of those guys, I know. So we're getting them together on the same project. Oh, yeah. It was great. And Eddie Murphy can be, when he plays the big characters, he's so charismatic and so big. But when he played the other guy, Jiff, the goofy brother with the ears, he's a brilliant artist. He drained out all of his charisma and energy. I remember being on the set, standing at the Apple Pan, and I'm standing next to him, not paying attention, talking, and I'm realizing it's just the brother. But he had no... he is capable of changing the physics of what it feels like to be around him, which was kind of remarkable.

American Gangster. I'm just gonna... okay, that's my field. Atlanta, but no. I know that these stories have particular meaning, because it hears this. Yeah, it was out of the curiosity of a conversation. You were not trying to make the movie 'American Gangster.' I wasn't trying to make the movie 'American Gangster.' I didn't know there was such a thing as 'American Gangster' that existed. But I heard about this guy, a writer journalist, Nicholas Pileggi, who had written 'Goodfellas.' But more of it... what makes Pileggi was he was a writer of... he had every mafia secret in his head, every single one. He wrote about the mob beginning early, like in the 1930s. He was writing about the mob and about how America came to be what it was, and just sort of the laws and power dynamics of America. He feels came from the turn of the century and organized crime, how Italians organized crime because all of a sudden there was Prohibition, the mob could get liquor, sell liquor, everybody could wear nice clothes, eat good food, everybody mingling together. That becomes the birth of the power of the turn-of-the-century gangsters. So I think, 'I want to meet this guy.' He's like a walking, living archive of contemporary American crime, particularly the whole Mafia thing. So I had no movie, nothing. I just wanted to meet him. So he takes me to Rao's restaurant. Rao's is the gangster restaurant. So we go to the gangster restaurant, and we really connect. I was transfixed to him. It was a fantastic conversation. At the end of it, I go, 'Maybe we do something or get together someday again.' But I had no idea what to do with him. He was so much more mature than I am. And then it was many years later, had to be like seven or eight years later. He calls me up and goes, 'I think I got something for us.' It was literally well over five years later. He goes, 'There's an article written in New York magazine about Frank Lucas.' Frank Lucas was the story of 'American Gangster,' of course. He says, 'Read this little story and see what you think.' I read this story, and I go, 'I love it. It's fantastic.' He goes, 'Well, listen, I think it's a movie.' I was excited. I never knew until I could finally go to prison to meet Frank Lucas in prison. He's the character that Denzel Washington played, who became one of the biggest drug dealers in America, actually of opium, heroin rather. And he says, 'When I went and saw Frank, I knew him when I saw him face to face.' So crazy. He did say that face to face. I knew it was a real story. And he said, 'If you want to do it, I bet I can get Frank to come to LA.' So I get Frank Lucas and Nicholas Pileggi to come. Frank Lucas, first of all, he's never flown on an airplane in like 20 years. And then I get him first class. That was a great thing. Put him up in the Whitney Houston suite at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And it's like, 'This is amazing.' So that became a triangle, the three of us. And then from that, I created this group of people that believed in it. I got Steve Zaillian, who won an Oscar for 'Schindler's List.' It took forever to keep getting him. It took three years to get him to write. I'd better be careful, but really start. And then from that point, I talked to Denzel Washington, and I talked to Benicio del Toro. And then I created a film, and then I get it going. And then they canceled it, actually, like a break before we went into production. So they were taking a $33 million loss ten years ago, which would be like a $50 million loss with no movie, because they were just scared of it and the director. So the movie shuts down. And again, it was the face-to-face connection we all had together. It was like a group of people. And Denzel, I said, 'Would you stay with me? I'll get this going, and I will improve the hand. I'll make it better so the studio will want to make it.' And there was no empirical data that would ever support that, because the studio said to me, 'We're taking like a $33 million loss. Don't ever say the word 'American' or 'Gangster' and never put them together.' So I just thought, 'I'm so impregnated by this idea, it's impossible for me to escape it.' And so all these guys stuck with me even though it was a dead movie. It was really kind of an amorphous thing. The script was not ready. And I eventually got Ridley Scott, who I kind of really wanted from the beginning. And then all of a sudden, I convinced Russell Crowe to play the Benicio del Toro role because Benicio wasn't available and was doing other things, and Russell was more suitable for the role. But there was really no role, but he believed and trusted me because we just finished 'A Beautiful Mind.' So basically, the point of the story is it's a Hollywood story, but it's a story that exists because of human connection. If you can actually engage people and really engage them in a mission, you can evangelize that mission. And that's, I think, if you guys are in this business, or really if you're trying to raise your B round or whatever you're trying to do, you have to engage people in your idea, the mission. And I've been able to do that.

By sort of accessing things that really matter to me or my authentic self and getting others to care, I'm sure everyone else could do. And the common thread is great stories, great intent, and then great packages of people. Yeah, not always obvious people and not always easy people, right? And you've navigated those waters with folks who had reputations for being difficult to work with, or things like that. Eight Mile was not an easy walk in the park, right? Together we could work with Eminem in his first film. Yeah, and he was really great in the movie. But I had a curiosity meeting with him and I somehow couldn't capture his interest at all. After 20 minutes he just goes, 'I'm out.' He didn't say one word other than 'I'm out,' got to the door, I'm out. So I sort of begged him, I go, 'You can animate, can't you?' Like I just didn't know what to say. So 'animate' is not an important word, it's just the word I said. And he looked at me kind of mad at me, matter that he was even leaving. But for some reason he came back. I guess he saw my desperation or desire or something. And he basically was able to tell me, I asked him like, 'How'd you grow up and what's you know?' And he basically explained how he grew up and what was going on, which really became the architecture of the movie Eight Mile. And that was the hardest part of all. Yeah, and it was a great chance of winning an Oscar, the only rapper to ever win an Oscar. But also you were at the beginning of that movie, it wasn't like we were cashing in on the undercurrent craze. This is something you really... Yeah, I wasn't... What gives you the courage to do something like that? Meaning the studio probably wasn't any more happy about that, wasn't going in... No, they wouldn't be happy about that. Well, that came about because I met Old Dirty Bastard about 10 years before that. So 25 years ago, I made this guy Old Dirty Bastard. It all came from just meeting one person, ODB. So I was in a taxicab traveling from downtown to midtown, and Howard Stern was talking to a guy, and the guy goes, 'Don't you dare call me that, my name is Old Dirty Bastard.' You know, like he was angry with him because he didn't call him Old Dirty Bastard, which to me I thought was an insult. And so I think, 'I gotta meet this guy that insists on being called ODB, Old Dirty Bastard. I have to meet him.' Yeah, I found a way to meet him. I'm supposed to meet him in his studio, but I don't even know if there was a studio. He said I met him on a sidewalk, and that was true. And then I just thought, 'Wow, this guy's so interesting.' And it sort of turned me on to the whole idea of the Wu-Tang Clan, and then which is now an incredible series. You know, I love that you saw it. You like it? The scripted series on the legacy of... Really think of this band of felons, you know, and how they became successful and unified. And actually, this distinguished really turned me on about the Wu-Tang. You know, the show or the Wu-Tang Clan itself as a band is that they integrated an Eastern thought that they were able to import from these martial arts films, these corny films. But then the RZA wrote a book called The Tao of Wu. So when I met ODB, that got me sort of in that culture. And then a couple things happened. One was the editor of the New York Times said to me, because I was with the editor of the New York Times, and he said, 'What are you doing?' I said, 'Well, I just met this guy named Old Dirty Bastard.' 'What's that?' So I tell him what an Old Dirty Bastard is. I said something about that it's an important part of our culture now, East Coast hip hop. And he said, 'I think it's a fad that's gonna trend away, and it's an inferior subculture.' And I said, 'I think it's the culture itself.' And he deferred, didn't think so. So we disagreed on that. And I thought, 'Well, I'm gonna try to prove him wrong through some sort of weird cinematic equation,' which became later the Eight Mile movie. And then the RZA, I put him in as an actor in American Gangster. That's when I got the De Niro. And then I thought maybe I should do the Wu-Tang Clan as a series, and that became that. That's a whole book anyway, bunches and endless of... Sort of a vile in the category of upcoming. We could talk about when we're working on together. Oh yeah, let's do that. He'll grow energy. You want to say it? Well, I've been talking so much they can't hear you. You broke first of all. You wrote a book. Well done. Hillbilly Elegy. And I'd love it if you want to... By the way, I'm not a professional interviewer, so if there is a time thing, the end point, just somebody yell from the back that it's time to... You're usually being interviewed, so yeah.

I just want to point out, I think it's relevant for both of us, is that when you have conversations where they're not transactional, where you're not... I like a lot of it. Like when I talked about Nick Pelosi, it wasn't a transactional conversation. It didn't have any ambition to it where there's something was to transact. Yeah, and then that's when these things become kind of magical and gifts. They come alive and they created a constellation of dots in your whole life that you can become animated and become vibrant. And I will tell you, I would guess this because you knew they got the people on Arrested Development. If you were just a Hollywood boss guy and you felt like and you talked communicated with Jason Bateman transactionally, like 'You're doing this,' he might not have even come to you with those. That's... Yeah, I mean, and you wouldn't have been open minded. I mean, the whole thing wouldn't those channels wouldn't have been open from either side. It's true. Yeah, and I think by the way, your partner Ron, yeah, this was the origin of the Arrested Development reboot was literally a casual conversation. Yeah, it was an NBA All-Star weekend when it was here years ago. And I just literally said to Ron, trying to come up with something to talk to him about, how much I loved Arrested Development. 'We should get to... We should talk about putting it back on. I'd do it. I would do it on Netflix in a second.' And then you gave me your number. Yeah, I think you know, I literally had no expectation of anything. The next day there's a call set up, and it's Ron and Mitch, and we had a conversation. And then within three days, we were go. Was it go? Great. Okay, we are gonna open this up though. Okay, and then I was at the book when we went to end out there's... I want you to end by telling me this great story about a fire 13. And I also want to give you everyone here just a second of your insights around pitching, because I think pitching is the art that nobody knows kind of how it works. Yeah, and I did no one teaches it. People are... And I see it every day, and I think I've seen it really horrible and I've seen it unbelievably. And I would love to hear your secrets of pitching. But first, let's go to the open up a little. Alright, real quickly. And live talk sell a just a reminder: questions typically start with a W or an H, and sometimes a D. There is no such thing as a two-part question. And tonight only, dad gets to ask the follow-up questions. That was a recording. Like I don't know, there were rules. Yeah, newcomers here. Brian, I feel that you are a creative producer, and creativity can be a set-to lonely process. And if you think you mean... But that respect, how do you handle that? Being creative in your producing while you have issued or had issues with being alone? Oh, okay. How do I? Well, I guess... Well, first of all, again, I don't feel so lonely, you know. But um, yeah, in the past, you mean how did I... Yeah, um, I just try to stay really active. I try like build in actual mechanics into my life, like actual... You know, it's just like exercising. I do push-ups every day, you know. But life push-ups, I do actual... I make sure that I actually do look at people anyway, hey, like that. I make sure that when I go into an elevator, I'm not on my phone. Sometimes I fail, but I try not to look at my phone when I go. I think this the story, our stories begin when you get out of your car to go to the party. So when people see that you're on your phone, they don't tend to want to talk to you, or they could misinterpret, think you're too busy or whatever it is. So the story starts whether it's a pitch or a party or a lunch, the minute you get out of the car, and then the minute you open the door and they see you, you're really present and you're thoughtful. So I try to build all these little mechanics into my life of doing that. And again, I do these curiosity conversations where I force myself to meet somebody every week that's new. And I did this when I had zero, absolutely zero power and very little identity. And I am... So I make sure to build in these... They're in this book, I have lists of techniques of things that I try to employ.

The seven friends thing started about 20 years ago, before we met. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, could have been 18 years ago, but still anyway. It's getting anyway. Anyway, I just thought that guys that are successful and very ambitious, they become disenfranchised from one another. And there was a bunch of guys that I liked, and someone named Tom Freston we liked. And I'm kind of the guy in the group. It all becomes down to a junior high school paradigm. Are you the guy that gets picked on? Are you the guy that picks on people? Are you the enthusiast? There's everybody is an archetype. And I'm the guy that always says yes. Yeah, let's do it. Like I will, if something scares me, which can be often actually, I will just do the thing that I'm afraid of immediately and just trust that there's not gonna be a horrible consequence. So in that group, I said to Tom Freston, 'If you can think of the places...' First placement was Cuba. We spent six and a half hours with Fidel Castro. That was kind of an interesting moment or event. And then we went to the Amazon. We went to a bunch of places. So we just made a point every year to go one place, these seven guys. That was it. It was a discipline. It was literally again just a discipline of a forcing function. You force yourself, of course.

Thank you. Back here. Yeah, I just wanted to follow up on the forcing function or the discipline that you talked about. Can you tell us a little bit about when there's been periods where maybe you've fallen in a rut or you haven't been able to do it on a weekly basis? What are some of the disciplines or the mechanics that you do to make sure that you've been consistent over such a long period of time? Thank you.

Okay, I want Ted to answer this too, if you wouldn't. I mean, I'd love it if you answered. I like to know this stuff.

For me and us, how do I do? Well, if you read this book, you'll see it. Yeah, well you will. I mean, it's just like how do you do it? You... I live... Okay, so when you started from a place where you're... You know what shame is. So now you're in this relationship with shame when you're... When I was a kid, so everyone knows what shame is, even if they have a different life than me, you know what it is. So you create systems for shame avoidance, right? And they don't even have to be... They can just be primal things, or they can be real systems like where you're actually looking at it objectively going, 'Wow, I will avoid shame if I do the following things. Oh, I might even succeed if I do these things.' And so you just look at it like that, just map it out. I mean, again, like I was an F student. Everyone can do this. It's funny, I find... And I know you do this a lot, but like I'm fascinated how thoughtful... I mean, I think I'm pretty thoughtful. I think you're pretty thoughtful too. And there are people... I'll tell you, I'm on a secret. Jimmy Kimmel is like one of the most thoughtful people on the planet. Like you wouldn't... Although he will drop something out of thin air that you didn't see coming, a little gift or a little note or a little something that for no reason, better than anyone I've ever seen. I don't know how that... And I'm sure that's something he says, 'I'm gonna...' There must be built into his own regimen to do it, because I always think it's like he always does that thing that I wish I'd have thought to do, and if I had another minute I would have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it being able to force yourself into... Yeah, like you said, it's easy. Nah, this is... I don't mean this to be a gender stereotype thing, I think adult women typically make friends much easier than men do, and manage friendships better than men do. Well, that's been my experience. I don't know. Yeah, that's true. I don't know. I yeah, I don't mean that my experience. And I would say that the idea of having... Because we're not good planners. No, we're good planners. I know that. Yeah, so I just think in a lot of different ways, it's a good thing to ask yourself out loud, look in the mirror. And I do. Joe, yes, I agree with you.

Thank you so much for both of you for being here. I just want to say, because of you and your last book, I actually started hosting my own curiosity dinners every week, and it's changed my life and the life of many of my friends. They're women of color, going to what you're saying as well. So I'd love to know, is there a person now that you wish you could have a dinner with that you just can't have? And can we have you at our next dinner? Yeah, maybe. I mean, send the email. I'm predisposed anyway.

I wish I could do... Meet with... Well, I did go to the Kremlin recently, which would sometimes they... You know, so well. I definitely, definitely would like to... This very big dream like to talk to Pope Francis. I mean, if I could. And I guess if I'm... I try and if I say it enough, it'll probably materialize, or the right lead will happen. It will cause the next right lead to happen. Yeah, I'm just a big believer that you can manifest things that you think about, journal about. That journal, 'cause I'm not read German, but just write it, write it down, think of it the same way you're saying. Yeah, okay, okay.

Hi, my name is Christina, and I had a question. As someone who's a young director and writer, how did you forge that relationship with Ron to have a continuing director/producer relationship throughout all this time?

Well, the Ron thing was at that time it was 1978, and I was producing some movies for TV when I was like 25. One was on the Ten Commandments, using each commandment as an underlying theme in a contemporary moral dilemma. And that, my friend, is a [expletive] exactly a modern movie that shows both sides of 'Thou shalt not kill,' which I'm now gonna do again. So and then was one that was just a high rated show called Zuma Beach, starring Suzanne Somers. There was just kind of the dignified way to say just like American Graffiti at the beach, but it was really just like people with no clothes on. I mean, I know they were bathing suits. Clothes? I said have to be very literal. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Busy. So um, so I yelled out the window. I saw Ron Howard and I said, 'Ron!' I yelled out 'Ron!' and he kind of ran away. He was the star of Happy Days, he was an American icon playing Richie Cunningham. And I thought, 'Oh my god, this is my day. I'll meet him.' And then he kind of quickly eluded me because I mean, I yelled up my windows in the third storey of a building. And then I called his office. 'You know, that guy that yelled at the window?' By the way, I'm a big, big, big believer of making your own phone calls. And cut for me, I still do this today. I honestly have three assistants, but I try... I don't want them to make calls. I want to make all my own calls because I like to talk to the assistants. I like to, 'Hey, it's me Brian.' Or I like being a... Really, and because you know then... Okay, ice this is really true. I do that because I believe first of all there's goodwill in it. It's much more time efficient to call you. I find for me, call myself instead of 'Go get so-and-so on the phone.' Business and you've already started your story, you get somebody rooting for you. I literally two weeks ago, I'm trying to get this movie made that matters to me. And I found these directors that are perfect for this particular thing, the perfect marriage, creative marriage. And the executive that has to approve it is going out of town. I call the assistant. I literally begged the assistant, 'Look, I will only... I'll come in with them for a half hour.' And this is my stage of my career too. Totally fine. I could quit even. I don't know. [Laughter] I'm taking back. But anyway, so I begged the assistant. She finds the half-hour slot. We go in, and everybody... I mean, that executive really liked these guys. But it wouldn't really definitely wouldn't have happened. I could have even lost these guys to something else because they're talented, but they're kind of perfect for this material. And it sort of begins kind of that way for me.

Well, hi Brian. My name is Cherise. Um, over the years as I've seen you, one of the things that I know this is journey here. And I was just wondering, when did you start that style?

Okay, so it started about 20 years ago because... What happened is I was making successful movies. I was actually like only did comedies. I produced, you know, wrote some stories and some scripts, but I made only comedy starting like with Night Shift and Splash and Parenthood and all the Nutty Professors and Liar Liar and all this stuff. Anyway, the point is, but I felt like I needed like a hook. But I couldn't do the hook that the other producers that were my peers that were successful... There's like four other guys, they all had beards. I couldn't grow a beard, so I couldn't have a beard. And I don't have a bad temper, so I couldn't throw stuff at people. Those are all taken. Those were taken. I don't know. And it just happened that I was in my swimming pool with my daughter Sage, who's actually here someplace. And I popped my hair up, and my daughter Sage goes, 'Hey, that looks good,' something like that, gave me encouragement on it. And I thought, 'Let's try it.' And so we tried it, and I popped it up. My hair was very high too, like I heard a lot of it. And so I did it. I put a little gel in it. I did it the next day at work. But again, it was really high. And I could tell it was the perfect litmus test to know whether somebody actually hated me or liked me. And it became this kind of like a bell curve. It was like this. So there was one side, there's like about a 15 on the lower side of the 15% side of the bell curve would be some people thought that was cool. Then there was the other side thought, 'What an [expletive] this guy.' That was extreme. But mostly it was just like, 'Why is he doing that?' So and I thought it was really... I thought it was a way that I... First of all, I thought it was kind of interesting, and I was very aware that it was causing some reaction. And I did kind of think like maybe I'll just bring out the truth in people that I'm interacting with more quickly, you know? Because if they really like me, then they'll be okay with something. I don't know. It just felt like sort of a meter for that. And then there was a moment, again I was pretty successful, that the most powerful person in show business said to me, whispered with whispered tones, 'You know, that's not a very good idea, that haircut.' He said, 'I think I would...' He was my agent actually. He said, 'It's not a very good idea. I think you should change your hair style to something slightly more conventional, and otherwise nobody will take you seriously.' I know, wow. That might be true, but then who does he mean won't take me seriously? Because I like to ask these questions of mine. And I thought, what he means is the business guys won't take me seriously. And I thought that isn't really what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to be relatable and friendly to the creative people. Just do it because that's what I want to do. I like the creative people.

Okay, so what makes a good pitch? Well, for me, I can only say for me is because I grew up on having... It's like a bonus feature now. Oh yeah, but this question... We're in overtime. Ask you about use or sell DVDs in now. You're okay. So pitching again is sort of like the story itself. Like for me, this okay, first of all, I create a context and environment by being friends with all the assistants. By usually I want the boss to like me. I want the tends to like me. And I try to create an authentic relationship. If it's inauthentic, do not do this because it works against you. Because I tried that. I went to a big Hollywood party when I was like 25 years old because I thought it would be good for me. But it was inauthentic of me, and I said really stupid things to a couple people. The one guy's name was Donald March, that ran movies for TV for CBS. He would take two weeks to call me back. If I can finally meet Donald March at a party, and me dial margin a party, I'm way out of my element. I say something kind of dumb. He never called me back ever. So you want to... You have to do things have to be authentic, you know. And you have to have something to offer in that connection. So if I was going with this bow, you want everybody to like you, and particularly you want the vote from the top guy. But mostly I want... You want to work with the people that are assigned to do their job. You want to do the people really don't try to skip. There's no skipping the classes and stuff. You can or shortcuts in my opinion. So when you work that whole side, then by the time you get there, you've already know well the botany the person you're pitching to is already predisposed towards because you can get all this Intel. It's pretty much predisposed to this idea. So you're already kind of in the plus column. Then I always make it first. I say, 'How much time? How much time do you have?' And then they'll say, 'Well, we have like twenty minutes or thirty.' Whatever they say, I want to always be fast and out there before they have to go. Always. And I always start with a 'Did you know' question. 'Did you know that...' Then these there's hip-hop battles that happen in the country. And did it... And they go... You have to say something that is that 'Did you know' question about a... For me, but usually about a culture that they... A true culture that would be of interest. But you can make something sound interesting if you enter it from a unique perspective. And that comes from just talking to people, learning and understand. You know, it's just storytelling itself. So you want to have like you want to find the beginner's mind entry point into the subject that doesn't help you. You want to sit... This is how I looked at it when I was a kid. I thought 60 Minutes was my favorite show. So that if I could work... There's this guy Dan Rather was one of the anchors. I thought I could imagine myself the best job in the world would be really the juniors, juniors little nobody working for Dan Rather. And I thought if I worked for Dan Rather, I bet he'd have like three minutes. And in the three minute, he'd go, 'What do you got?' And then I'd say... I'd have to get his interest in the first 30 seconds. Then I thought, how would I do that? And that was always like by saying 'Did you know' kind of questions. And the 'Did you know' usually leads to something that is truthful or a commitment to sit fiction. A commitment is something that would captivate his interest that could sound obtuse, but like that's how I do it. And then I just make it happen. Make it all happen. The trick is to say something and get them to talk back to you. That's what it is. So cookie thing more of a conversation. The conversation because the bosses, which you are one, they don't get to talk much because people are always pitching at them, or they're in big giant meetings, or they're building the... They are always being talked at. And you want to create engagement. Yeah, that's how it's great.