Mr. Jindal, thank you very much for joining us here on the CNBC TV18 25th anniversary. It's great to have you. And what we are discussing tonight, ladies and gentlemen, is whether we are at a breakout moment as far as India's manufacturing sector is concerned. So straight up, Mr. Jindal, we had Uday Kotak here this morning saying that India needs to up its game as far as competition is concerned. We can no longer be protectionist on trade. We need to be far more liberal. How do you respond?
So just coming before coming here, I heard this comment and I said Uday is not in manufacturing, so he can comment freely. If he was in manufacturing, then he would say this. So I was saying, you know, we are not yet the factory of the world. Let's first become the factory of the world and then we should open up our doors for competition. Let there be no... Nothing. I mean, the United States, even after let's say 100 years or 150 years of developed nation status, even today they have tariffs. Europe is putting tariffs, right? And we are saying we should open up? Then we will kill our manufacturing here. We are not a great manufacturing country in any case today. Our GDP manufacturing GDP is only 17% of our GDP, right? And we must get to 25-30%, what China is. But if you open up and we become liberal, then we will kill our industry.
So you talked about tariffs. Donald Trump says tariff is the favorite word that he has in the dictionary, and he has promised that he is going to go full throttle as far as tariffs are concerned. What is that going to mean? We don't know the quantum. We don't know what finally will happen. But given the threat and what he's done in his previous term, what will it mean?
What Donald Trump is, in my opinion, he is very clear. He is very clear-headed guy, whether right or wrong, but he has a clarity of thought. And he says that for me, America is first. I want to build America. I don't care about the world. For me, America is the world. And therefore, I want my industry to grow. I want America to grow, American industry to produce goods. It's not that Chinese should supply to me and then I will consume. I don't want to become only a consuming country. I want to produce and consume. So therefore, I want to put tariffs. Yes, tariffs do make you, let's say, a lethargic. Let's say it becomes, you become more uncompetitive to an extent. So therefore, you have to gradually bring down the tariff to become comparatively... start running the race.
So let me throw that argument back to you. You said you have to allow the kid to grow up. So where are we? Haven't we adult yet as far as Indian manufacturing?
Not at all. Not at all. It's a teenager? Pre-teen. Pre-teen. Yeah, we are just kind of four or five years old, really. Yeah, absolutely. In manufacturing, yeah. Because, because you see China, if you open up the records and see China in 1990, what kind of protectionist China was? In 2000, what were their protection levels? And what they are today? Today they are open up because they became the factory of the world. I wanted to export steel in 98-99 to China. Was not permitted to do that because China had tariffs. They removed the tariff. But now today, we have zero tariff on steel. Chinese steel, which is surplus, they are near 60% of their capacity surplus capacity. So it comes via Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia to India at 0% duty.
So you are saying there is a case for higher tariffs to be imposed?
I am not saying higher tariffs, but there has to be, the government must have a very clear view of what they want. The heavy industries to come up in this country. Because steel industry, for example, I am just taking steel as an example because I belong to steel industry. If you don't want the heavy industries to come in India, you want to rely on Chinese steel industry to build Indian ecosystem, Indian SMEs and MSMEs, I have no problem. I can go somewhere else and invest. I don't have to invest here. But I love this country. I would love to invest here. I have grown here. I have earned my bucks here, right? So I would love to invest here. But this thought that MSME and SME is more important than the heavy industry, if the heavy industry doesn't do, MSME, SME doesn't... So you have to...
You're sounding pretty sanguine about growth as well as the future.
Not really. I mean, yeah, but this fact is you have to, because steel industry needs huge investment, right? So for making huge investment, you have to make profits. If you can't make profit, then you can, my shareholders will not give me money to invest, right? So then I can't build more industry. Today, for example, India needs 20 million tons of steel every year. China needed, let's say, in year 2000. We need it today. So 20 million means 20 billion dollars of investment every year. I don't think if any other industry requires that kind of investment. We are willing to do that as an industry. But there are only, in every country, there are only four or five players which invest in any industry, right? So a 20 billion dollars among four or five players is a huge investment, yeah, which we are doing. But if we don't make money, we can't invest. Okay.
So let's talk about you said that you know, if things, if the conditions are not right, you will go elsewhere and invest. I mean, in a matter of speaking, I'm not saying that you're going to do that, but I am talking about for instance, your own international plan, your own international expansion in markets like the US for instance. Are we going to see more of that being built out?
Personally, no. As I said, I love India. I love to expand in this country. And this is my karma bhoomi. So I would do here. But I want the right policy. I want the country must really think about how to develop the heavy industry.
So what you want? What is the number one to three thing you want from the government?
