The invasion of Ukraine by Russia was a reality check for all of us, especially for us Europeans. And the fundamental premise that you cannot change international borders by force. This was one of the lessons of World War II. If this happens, you need to defend yourself and you need to support the country that's defending itself. This is Today's Battlegrounds.
On this episode of Today's Battlegrounds, our focus is on Greece, known formerly as the Hellenic Republic. Our guest is Kyriakos Mitsotakis, Prime Minister of Greece and leader of the center-right New Democracy Party. Prime Minister Mitsotakis earned degrees from Harvard and Stanford and worked in the private sector before entering public service in 2004 as a member of the Greek Parliament. Since taking office in 2019, he has overseen Greece's recovery from the sovereign debt crisis and guided reforms that restored economic growth and investor confidence.
Modern Greece is heir to a political and intellectual tradition that has shaped the world since antiquity. From the democratic experiment in Athens to Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War and beyond, great contributions remain foundational to modern political and strategic thought. After centuries under Roman, Byzantine, and Ottoman rule, Greece won independence in 1832 and rebuilt a modern state on those ancient foundations.
Greece's strategic relevance continues into the modern era. After the Second World War, the country became one of the first arenas of the Cold War, and in 1947, the Truman Doctrine formalized a US partnership against communist expansion. With American support, the Greek government prevailed in a civil war in which nearly 158,000 Greeks lost their lives. The partnership extended through Greece's NATO accession in 1952 and has endured for nearly eight decades.
In the decades that followed, Greek democracy faced two major tests and rebuilt itself each time. In 1967, a military coup imposed a junta that ruled until 1974. Greeks ended the junta, founded the Third Hellenic Republic, and bound their country more closely to Europe through European Community membership in 1981 and adoption of the euro in 2001. Then in 2010, the sovereign debt crisis triggered the second reckoning as the Greek people endured nearly a decade of recession, austerity, and political turmoil.
Greece has staged a remarkable economic recovery while expanding its influence in the Mediterranean region and beyond. The naval base at Souda Bay on Crete supports NATO operations across the Mediterranean. Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the port of Alexandroupoli has become one of NATO's most important transit points for military equipment moving to Eastern Europe. Greece is building energy infrastructure to connect the Eastern Mediterranean and the Balkans to the rest of Europe, reducing the region's reliance on Russian energy. Greece's election to the UN Security Council for the 2025-2026 term marks its growing diplomatic weight in maritime security and regional affairs.
We welcome Prime Minister Mitsotakis to discuss Greece's economic resurgence, the country's expanding role in international security, and the future of US-Greek cooperation. Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis, welcome to Today's Battlegrounds. Thank you for making time for me and our international audience. It's great to be with you.
Well, thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to this discussion.
I'd like to begin, logically, I guess, in Greece and really the striking story of your prime ministership. I mean, since you've been there, you're almost seven years now, and you have organized a fantastic recovery in the economy. In a recent interview in Bloomberg, you talked about how Greece is producing a sustainable surplus. You're growing the economy, outpacing the rest of the Eurozone, and it's been a fantastic turnaround. Could you share with our viewers the biggest lessons you've learned over the course of this transformation effort and what advice you might have for other leaders facing situations like you were with a debt crisis? It's been a fantastic turnaround. Congratulations, and we're anxious to hear how you did it.
Well, first of all, thank you so much for your kind words. It certainly was a fascinating and rather bumpy journey, as you pointed out. I've been in power now for seven years, and when the Greek people first placed their trust in us back in 2019, we inherited a situation where the reputation of the country was still to a great extent tarnished by the big financial crisis. I should remind your viewers that Greece during the second decade of the 21st century suffered the biggest decline in GDP in the history of any OECD country. Essentially, the country went bankrupt. We went through three stabilization programs, and our society paid a very heavy price. Back in 2015, we almost crashed out of the Eurozone. So my first mandate when I came into power was to return Greece to a sustainable growth path while at the same time stabilizing our public finances and ensuring that Greece would never again be faced with a situation of significant macroeconomic imbalances. And indeed, if you look at our public finances now, seven years since we made our first commitment, it has been a very interesting story of fiscal discipline combined with very healthy growth. If you look at our debt-to-GDP ratio, it has declined at the fastest pace in the history of any OECD country. By the end of 2026, we probably will no longer be the most indebted country in the Eurozone. And for a country that has been plagued with high debt for many decades, I consider this probably to be my most important legacy: not to inherit to the next generation an unsustainable degree of debt. Of course, you can only reduce your debt as a percentage of GDP if you produce primary surpluses and if you grow the economy significantly. And we've been able to do both. We've created close to 600,000 new jobs over the past seven years. We brought down unemployment from 18% to 8%. When we first came into power, investment as a percentage of GDP was at 11% when the European average was at 21%. We're now anywhere between 17% and 18%. So this has been an investment growth that is bringing in both foreign investment but also mobilizing domestic investment. Of course, there's still a lot of work to be done. My main goal is true convergence with Europe when it comes to disposable income and GDP per capita. So we know that we need to continue to grow the economy at a much faster pace than the rest of the Eurozone for the foreseeable future. But I think we've laid the foundations because unless you have fiscal discipline, eventually macroeconomic imbalances are going to come back and bite you. And for me, restoring the credibility of the markets, ensuring that the capital markets place their trust in Greece knowing that you have a competent government that is not going to succumb to populist temptations to return to a policy of unsustainable handouts, I think is very important and probably a good lesson for other governments which are currently struggling with their own debt and deficit problems. There are quite a few countries in Europe now that are under supervision by the European Commission because they cannot bring their deficit under control. Thank God Greece is no longer one of them.
Well, that applies to the United States, as you know, Prime Minister, Japan, others. I think what you've done is restored hope among many citizens that this can be done. I also admire what you've done to take on the issues of government reform, and to fight against clientelism, corruption. You uncovered some fraudulent EU subsidies and other activities that were a drag on growth and productivity and diverting resources. Could you talk about how you took on that problem of corruption and clientelism and self-dealing?
First of all, I would say the two are to a certain extent connected. If you continue to sustain clientelistic practices, the chances are that you will spend more than you actually have to because essentially you are buying off votes using unsustainable handouts. And I've never believed that this is the right way to do policy. So what we've done is completely reform the software of the government, establish a much stronger center of government at the office of the prime minister, make sure there is proper accountability when it comes to managing the affairs of the government and the coordination with all different ministries, setting very clear annual targets, having very clear reporting systems. All this may not sound like rocket science, but I can tell you that in the business of government, it is not always obvious that you can run a government using these fundamental principles. At the same time, we went all in when it came to the digital transformation of the state. We were a digital laggard. Today we celebrated six years since we implemented our www.gov.gr initiative. What is that? It's essentially the central portal for all government affairs. It has been a smashing success. It has allowed us to cut bureaucracy, to allow people to interact with the state from their mobile phones. It has been truly transformative, not only because we respect people, we don't want them to wait in queues, we don't want them to waste time dealing with bureaucracy, but also because we managed to save a lot of money and uncover various points of corruption which are always hidden in complex bureaucratic processes. I remember during COVID, visiting the States, you had these handwritten vaccination proof of vaccinations, and in Greece everything was done digitally. We have a digital ID. If you want to book an appointment with any physician in Greece, you can do it through your MyHealth app. You just log in and do it. It does help that we are not a federal state. We're a country of 10 million. So being able to run these initiatives from the government center is actually doable. You mentioned the question of agricultural subsidies. We've had perennial problems in terms of making sure that the right farmers receive the right amount of EU money. And it took us a lot of time to actually reform the system. For the first time, I'm confident that we are moving in this direction. It's very complex. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of farmers that have to declare their own plots of land. You have to register the true number of animals and goats that exist on all Greek mountains. And no one really bothered to look at the problem from a purely managerial point of view. But we did. Every transition is painful. In every reform, there are people who are going to be unhappy because they have been used to doing business in a certain way. But this has never been my mantra. Government is about change. It's about driving an ambitious change agenda. And every big change is going to make some people unhappy. For example, one of the big successes of our second term has been going after tax evasion. Everyone would tell you that this cannot be done. We had a perennial tax evasion problem. It's actually pretty common for many other southern European countries. You go to a tavern, you probably won't be issued a receipt. I'm giving the most simple example. Well, this is no longer the case. We used a combination of sophisticated AI analytics, a lot of digital payment systems. So we've tackled tax evasion. This is fair because whoever evades taxes is free riding at the expense of those who are paying their taxes, but it also brought in a lot of money into the public budget. So it helped us with our primary surpluses. And at a time when we're faced with a big affordability crisis, being able to use some of this surplus to target those who are in greater need is almost a luxury. Most European governments are forced to cut their budgets. Now, I at least have some money at my disposal. So it's a question of how I will distribute it in the most efficient way, always respecting social fairness. So we're in a good position, and we've proven that administrative reform and tackling what I call the deep state is something that can be done. Of course, there's still lots of battles to be fought. But I think the overall culture and attitude of Greek citizens towards the state has changed. I think there's a greater respect by the state towards citizens because in the past, it was almost a given that you had to succumb to bureaucracy. You had to play by its own rules. I think we turned the tables. I said, "No, we're going to look at the citizens' problems, and if I can make the citizens' interaction with the state simpler, I should go out of my way to do it because that's the way I respect taxpayers' money, because at the end of the day, they're paying for the government."
Prime Minister, I've often heard you talk about the false promise of populism and how important it is to be pragmatic. I think, as people lose confidence in government, they're prone to these populist messages and false promises. You've turned things around in terms of transparency, accountability, confidence in government. But among the problems you had besides the debt issues and the governance issues, you had the problem of mass migration and still do in many ways, centered on the ongoing war in Libya that's now decades old, and until recently the serial episodes of mass homicide and the Syrian civil war and the refugee crisis that created, the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban. Could you talk about this issue of mass migration, illegal immigration, because that's driving so much of the populism across Europe?
I think you're right to point out that the big surge in right-wing populism in Europe is to a great extent driven by illegal migration, and Europe was not open about the scale of the problem. From the very beginning of my term, I took a very tough but fair approach when it came to migration. To a certain extent, it was also a product of our own experiences. Back in March 2020, we were faced with an organized attempt to weaponize migration and to send tens of thousands of desperate people across our border from Turkey, because that was the way Turkey at the time felt it could pressure the European Union. And we made it very clear that this is not going to happen. So we used all means at our disposal to protect our borders. At the time, Europe was primarily focused on what we call secondary migration: what happens if someone enters the European Union, whether he should be in Greece, what happens if he comes to Germany? And I made it very clear to my European counterparts that unless we look at the external dimension of migration, protecting our borders, making sure that it's not the smugglers who decide who enters the European Union, we will not be able to solve the problem of migration because we will simply be overwhelmed by numbers. So we protected our borders. We built a fence on our land border with Turkey. We supervised our maritime borders much more effectively. We've saved tens of thousands of people at sea. I want to be very clear about that.
No, this is an important dimension of this, right? It's a humanitarian crisis as well.
It is also, but it's also very clear that my coast guard is not a welcoming committee for smugglers. So I will make it difficult for people to come into Greece. And I'm unapologetic about this. And if you're not entitled to asylum, I will send you back. I will do whatever I can to send you back to your country of origin. Europe has changed its approach and has come much closer to this Greek position vis-à-vis migration. We now have a new European legislation. We're focusing on returns. We need to communicate to people who are not entitled to asylum that they should not try to come to Europe because we will do whatever we can to send you back. But of course, for those people who make it into Europe and who are entitled to asylum, we will welcome them. And we've done so for tens of thousands of people. And if they want to choose to make Greece their home, we will welcome them. But this does not mean that we will have an open border policy. At the same time, I think if you're tough on illegal migration, you should also be open about legal migration. So this is the analogy of having a big fence and a big door. I want a big fence for illegal migration, but I want a big door which I control when it comes to legal migration. I mentioned before the figures regarding our employment numbers. We are already faced with employment shortages in the agricultural sector, in basic manufacturing, in services. So why not do bilateral mobility agreements with countries with whom we have a good relationship and bring in these people legally and safely, let them work in Greece, register them, have them pay their social security? It's a win-win proposition. But in order to do that, I need to tackle the problem of illegal migration. So I think we found a decent balance. Yes, we are always faced with challenges. For example, you mentioned Libya. We have a problem in Libya. Now there's a new route that's opening up from eastern Libya to Crete. We're working with our Libyan counterparts. We offer them, for example, to train their Coast Guard. We want to work with these countries. These people should not leave the Libyan shore because they are boarding boats which are completely dangerous and certainly not seaworthy. So we want them not to leave the coast, or if they leave the Libyan coast, I want the Libyan Coast Guard to pick them up and return them to Libya. So we need to work with the countries of transit. We're doing so. I'm still not happy with the results, but we will continue to address this challenge. But if I look at the overall numbers, they are significantly down compared to what they were some years ago.
You mentioned setting the example for the European Union on these changes to the approach to illegal migration. And in another area is in the area of regulation. I'm thinking of the Draghi report on European competitiveness and how Europe does appear to be overregulated in a way that is stifling economic growth and hindering Europe's ability to compete, especially in the area of new technologies associated with artificial intelligence and advanced manufacturing. Could you share with our viewers your assessment of some of the changes the EU needs to make in the area of fostering economic growth and competitiveness?
Well, first of all, I'm happy you mentioned the Draghi report for those of your viewers who don't know exactly what it is. It was an interesting document written by the ex-prime minister which basically highlights what Europe needs to do to become more competitive and points out to the fact that we've been faced with a gradual but quite significant erosion in our competitiveness over the past 20 years. You mentioned overregulation. The truth is that we have too much regulation when it comes to the business environment. This is a big priority for the commission: getting rid of unnecessary regulation. This is a big topic for us and for me. We have what we call the European single market. This is 27 member states. Theoretically, you can do business in all of those without any impediments. In practice, it's not really happening. So let's look at how we can turn this market of almost 500 million customers into a true single market. In the same way that you can do business between California and Nevada, and no one's going to ask you for lots of unnecessary paperwork, the same needs to be true if you want to do business between Greece and Italy or Greece and Estonia. So for example, creating a new legal entity, what we call EU Inc., registering a startup in any European country and being able to operate seamlessly in all of the European countries would be a game changer for our new tech companies. Energy: how can we be competitive in energy? It's a big factor of production, especially when it comes to manufacturing. Europe has a very strong tradition of high-quality manufacturing, but it's been eroded not just by high energy costs, but also by issues of unfair competition. For example, massive imports from China. So all these issues are very much at the forefront of the European agenda. So if you think about Europe, what are our two priorities? The first is competitiveness, the second is defense. These are the two issues we're really focusing on as a European Union, a topic which we will discuss at the next European Council which will take place in a week from now, where we need to take some important decisions not regarding the direction—I think the direction has been agreed—it's really the speed and the sense of urgency that we need to embrace to really move fast in a direction that will make Europe more competitive again. Because, for example, we are big savers in Europe, but we're sending our savings to the US because we don't have what we call a savings and investment union, we don't have capital markets union. If you want to list your company, you're much better off going to NASDAQ rather than to any European stock exchange. These things need to change because it's not just about public money or European money, it's also about mobilizing private capital. And unfortunately, the money right now is not placing too many bets on Europe, and this is something that needs to change.
Prime Minister, everything you're talking about here in terms of the importance of collective defense within Europe and NATO, energy security, growing our economies, countering Chinese economic aggression—you mentioned the overproduction and dumping of Chinese goods in a way that drives European and US and other firms out of business as just one form of economic aggression. This sounds like a positive agenda for the US and Europe. And what kills me these days is how we're at each other in terms of gratuitous insults and tensions which have been exacerbated to a certain extent over the war with Iran. Could you outline what your positive agenda would be for the transatlantic relationship, which you're on the record of saying you're a committed fan of?
Look, I started in the US. I was just back at Harvard for my 30th HBS reunion. I do believe that the transatlantic relationship has set the blueprint for a rules-based world order that not only provided stability and growth potential, but also worked well both for Europe and for the US. So I'm not one of those who discounts the relationship in spite of the current turbulence. I'm a realist, but I do believe that there are win-win propositions. For example, when it comes to trade, there has been a rebalancing as a result of the recent tariffs. But at the end of the day, we need to find more opportunities to trade with each other, but also respect our respective rules. I do want the US tech companies to be active in Europe. But if Europe takes, for example, the protection of children and adolescents when it comes to access to social media seriously, these companies need to respect that this is a priority for us. When it comes to defense, President Trump was right to point out that Europe was essentially a free rider when it came to defense. Not Greece, because little Greece always spent 2% of our GDP on defense because of our special circumstance with Turkey. But we are spending more on defense, and if Europe builds its own strategic autonomy, this is going to be good for NATO. The US shouldn't be threatened by that. And yes, we will also develop our own domestic defense ecosystem. And if we spend more on defense, NATO as a whole is going to be stronger. So I do believe that at the end of the day, there is a profound bond that ties us together. And when we look at the big issues regarding global governance, the big challenges, the benefits and costs of AI—AI at some point cannot be just a wild west of innovation without understanding that this is a technology that will have profound implications, which unfortunately I think the way the US is looking at it. So we'll continue to try to work with the US both as a European but also as a Greek. We have a very strong bilateral partnership with the US which I respect, that goes beyond defense and security. And I also believe that when it comes to issues such as managing China, especially the fact that China now has 30% of the world's manufacturing capacity and has essentially the ability to destroy industries across the globe and certainly in Europe, this is a topic that we need to take very seriously. We cannot just allow our industrial base to be completely annihilated simply because we're in search of always the cheapest product, especially when it comes to unfair trade practices. So there's a lot of thought that needs to go into this. And I'm speaking here as a European who is a free trader. Greece is a shipping nation; we control 25% of the global merchant ships. We live off shipping to a great extent. But free trade does not mean trade without any rules, and certainly establishing some sort of level playing field is important for trade to properly function.
Prime Minister, I see this threat as based on Chinese economic aggression, but this coalescing that we've seen in recent years of what I would call an axis of aggressors, the two revanchist powers on the Eurasian landmass of Russia and China who pulled into the fold other authoritarian regimes. We're talking on the day that Xi Jinping is visiting Pyongyang, and North Korea has 15,000 troops fighting on European soil, and the kind of material support that we've seen China provide Russia in its onslaught against Ukraine, the support that China and Russia provide to Iran in its long-running wars against its Arab neighbors, Israel, and the United States. How do you see this axis of aggressors, and what more could the United States and Europe do together, pulling in others into the effort, to prevent these cascading crises from cascading further? What more can be done to restore peace at this moment?
