Prime Minister, New Zealand
PM Christopher Luxon: No change to nuclear free postion | Ryan Bridge TODAY
"Could have expressed himself better" PM on Penk's comments around NZ's anti-nuclear stance. Video / Ryan Bridge TODAY
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About Christopher Luxon
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has been focused on managing New Zealand's response to the Middle East fuel crisis, which he described as a volatile and unpredictable situation. He has provided regular updates on fuel stock levels, stating that New Zealand has sufficient supply and remains at phase one of the national fuel response plan. Luxon also outlined the government's framework for providing "timely, targeted, temporary support" for the most vulnerable, while acknowledging the government cannot alleviate pressure for everyone. He has emphasized the need to avoid the "mistakes of COVID" by not using a "cash bazooka" that would lead to long-term pain. Luxon has also highlighted the signing of a free trade agreement with India, calling it a "once-in-a-generation deal" that will lead to more jobs and higher incomes. In his Budget Day speech, he criticized the Labour opposition for advocating to "spend more, tax more, borrow more," and defended his government's record of finding $50 billion in savings and forecasting a surplus a year earlier than previously forecast. On foreign policy, Luxon reaffirmed New Zealand's one-China policy and its nuclear-free position, while noting that backbench MPs have long been free to accept invitations to travel to Taiwan. He also discussed the need to double defense spending, citing 30 years of underinvestment and a shift to a more strategically competitive global environment.
Transcript (27 segments)
✨ AI-enhanced transcript with speaker attribution
H
Host0:00
Did our defense minister Chris Pink speak out of turn when he told a major news outlet in Singapore that a conversation on New Zealand's anti-nuclear stance would be helpful? His boss, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon, was quick to respond, saying New Zealand's nuclear-free status has not and will not change. The prime minister joins us in the studio this morning. Good morning to you.
C
Christopher Luxon0:20
Morning. Good to see you.
H
Host0:22
Good to see you, too. Thanks for being here.
C
Christopher Luxon0:23
Good to be with you.
H
Host0:24
Did he speak out of turn? If he's saying a conversation is needed, but you're saying, well, we're not changing it, so what's the point of having a conversation?
C
Christopher Luxon0:31
Look, I think he could have expressed himself better on that point. But actually, if you look at his full quote, what he was saying is, right at the top, there won't be a change to our nuclear free position, and there won't be, because it's been a long-standing position of New Zealand. It's embraced across the whole of the political spectrum. It's something that I think we're very proud about as Kiwis, and it's a matter of principle for us. So, it definitely won't be changing, and definitely won't be changing while I'm prime minister.
H
Host0:55
Chris Hipkins said that Chris Pink simply said out loud what you guys have been saying behind closed doors. Is there any truth to that?
C
Christopher Luxon1:01
No. Absolute rubbish. This is something I personally believe in very, very strongly, and it won't be changing, as I've said before. So I get Chris Hipkins may want to play politics with a misspeak, but actually, at the end of the day, there is no change to our position at all.
H
Host1:13
So he did misspeak.
C
Christopher Luxon1:14
Well, I just think he didn't characterize it as well as he could have. But at the end of the day, he understands that it's not for changing. He said that very clearly in his remarks up front. Yes, Australia is getting nuclear submarines in the 2040s, 2050s, and the 2060s, but the reality is that the Australians and our partners understand our position well, and I make that very clear at every opportunity where I can. When I first became prime minister, I was in Australia, and in a press conference that was raised with me, and people understand our position well, our partners get it.
H
Host1:46
Is there any point pursuing this line of let's have a conversation, or you're saying he misspoke, let's put it to one side. Not happening.
C
Christopher Luxon1:57
No, it's just not happening. I can't be any clearer that there's no change to our nuclear free position. It's something that all parties across the political spectrum have embraced over many years now. It's something I feel strongly about, and it won't be changing while I'm prime minister.
H
Host2:14
So we don't need to read anything into the fact that the Australians are going to be getting nuclear-powered submarines. They are our only formal ally. If we don't let them into our waters, can they effectively be an ally?
C
Christopher Luxon2:24
We will have conversations with them, like we have had already, along the way about our nuclear free position, and they understand that. Yes, they would be getting nuclear subs, and yes, we'll be articulating yet again our nuclear free position. They will have to accept that.
H
Host2:41
Are we freeloaders in the defense?
C
Christopher Luxon2:42
No, we're not. And I actually took some offense to those comments because, at the end of the day, we choose our level of defense spending. We have our own independent foreign policy, and it's not a decision for someone else to make. We will make that decision. And we have, and the decision we've made is we've decided to double our level of defense spending. We need to do that because we've had 30 years of chronic underinvestment in the defense estate. Also, our equipment and kit needs radical replacing. We're not in a benign strategic environment living in the Indo Pacific region. We can see the damage that conflict does to prosperity and economies around the world. We don't want that happening in our region. We can be part of alliances, but we have to make a contribution. So, I'm really proud of the fact that we're doubling our defense spending, and we're doing it in a sensible way. We're also building capability and hiring personnel. Obviously we've got a lot of upgrades of technology and equipment to do as well. Those are decisions for New Zealand to make. The fact that we probably got somewhere between Pete Higse and Linda top means we probably got the balance about right.
H
Host3:45
Chris Pink also said that that's a floor, not a ceiling. So is the intention that it will rise over time? Because if you've got two things going on—we've underspent for a long time, but also, as you said, it's not a benign strategic environment—so are we spending enough to solve both of those problems?
C
Christopher Luxon4:02
Well, what we've always said is if our fiscal position improves over the coming years, yes, we're very happy to put even more into it as we could. But the real pacing item actually becomes personnel. You can go buy and build—it takes a while to build new ships, it takes a while to get airplane orders in place—and then you've actually got to have personnel to operate that equipment. That really is the pacing item. So it's not something you just turn on overnight. It takes years to get ships built. If you want to place an order for aircraft today, it can be four or five years before we actually get them.
H
Host4:33
Yeah. Ask anyone at Air New Zealand, right?
C
Christopher Luxon4:35
Well, just because there's so much demand for aircraft, obviously, as everybody is lifting their defense expenditure. The key thing is to make sure you don't get inflation in the defense industry around the world. You actually are getting new and additional capability, not just having everyone crank up the prices and everyone paying more for the same stuff. That's why working together with allies on procurement, as we are doing increasingly with the Australians and even Europe—we're opening up those conversations with Europe—we can get the benefits, even as a small country, of buying things at good prices by joint procurement.
H
Host5:09
Do you think it's just the bluff and bravado of the US that they have to include everyone, including New Zealand, when it's really not going to make a huge difference to them whether we spend 2%, 2.5%, or 3.5% of GDP on our defense budget? They're just trying to say everyone has to do what we tell them to because we're out there protecting the free world.
C
Christopher Luxon5:30
No, I think they've had a genuine point. If you look at the NATO conversation—and I've been at a number of NATO meetings where we've been invited as a member of the IP4 from the Asia Pacific region to participate in those forums—they've genuinely had a legitimate concern: why are we paying a disproportionate amount of the defense when we're supposed to be in this together? When you look at Western Europe as an economy, it's roughly similar size to North America. Why wouldn't they be expected to lift their contribution as well? European leaders would say upfront, in my conversations with them, they have fully acknowledged that they haven't carried their fair share. So I think the Americans have been right to provoke around the world and say we expect people to take their responsibility seriously.
H
Host6:15
Just not us.
C
Christopher Luxon6:16
No. Well, we are. We're doubling our defense expenditure. We've had 30 years where we've had woeful investment in our defense assets. That's not fair to the Kiwis that are serving us and representing us. We know we've got tasks to do in the Pacific when we have extreme weather events and cyclones—it's our Hercules that go into those places. We know we've got challenges around surveillance with transnational organized crime. P8 aircraft are helpful for some of that. There's a whole bunch of new equipment we're going to need to make sure we've got a modern, forward-looking New Zealand Defense Force. So I'm really proud of our investment. We're making a big jump from where we've been. There's more to do, of course, but it's a good start.
H
Host6:55
And hey, the books are tight, right? I just want to briefly talk to you about something that was being pushed through under urgency on Friday, which kind of got lost in the wash of everything in the budget: allowing AI to start making benefit decisions. This has been tried in Australia with robo-debt, and the outcomes were terrible. Are you confident that we are not going to be putting New Zealand beneficiaries in the same position?
C
Christopher Luxon7:21
Yes, I am, because we're well aware of what happened in Australia, and this is not that. The minister has looked at the Australian situation very, very closely. This is something that came out of last year's budget: we actually think there are real tasks. For example, someone doing a 26-week check again, either a medical check and there's no change, or there's no change to their circumstances—that doesn't need a deep people engagement, that just needs to be, if there's no change to the circumstances, let's keep moving forward.
H
Host7:52
So it's only going to be used in simplistic scenarios.