Founder, Brewer of Dogfish Head & Director, BOSTON BEER INC -CL A
Ep. 337 Sam Calagione of Dogfish Head
Today the gang welcomes back Sam Calagione, founder of Dogfish Head, on their big music summer plans, new products, and more.
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Beer Business Daily / Wine & Spirits Daily publisher Harry Schuhmacher joins his editors and bev-alc industry guests once a week as they grok the beer and beverage business issues of the day. Like and subscribe; it's free...
About Samuel Calagione
Sam Calagione, founder of Dogfish Head and director at Boston Beer Company, appeared on two podcasts in May and June 2026. On the May 26 episode of an unnamed podcast, Calagione discussed Dogfish Head's history, noting that he wrote Delaware's brewing and distilling statutes to be favorable to small producers, which allowed the company to produce multiple beverage types under one roof. He described the company's merger with Boston Beer in 2019 as a "great marriage" driven by complementary portfolios and shared culture. Calagione also stated that the first page of Dogfish Head's business plan included a quote from Emerson about "exploration of goodness" and committed the brewery to using culinary ingredients in most of its beers. On the June 14 episode of BeerNet Radio, Calagione discussed current industry trends. He said Dogfish Head is testing a new whiskey product through its existing beer wholesalers in coastal states from Connecticut to Northern Virginia. Calagione observed that smaller breweries relying on THC-infused beverage revenue may face challenges if that market declines, and he noted a trend of "smart and humble craft on craft M&A" among breweries with excess dark capacity. He also commented on consumer behavior, stating that higher gas prices are affecting sales in convenience stores and that the price disparity between on-premise and off-premise beer is "exacerbated." Calagione reiterated Dogfish Head's founding philosophy of "original beer, original food, original music."
Transcript (142 segments)
✨ AI-enhanced transcript with speaker attribution
U
Unknown0:00
You know, we can do this without Jordan if we really have to. [laughter] Yes, we can. If we really have to. If we really have to. Let me just put it that way. No, it was good. It was good.
Hey guys. Hello.
What was Harry saying to make you laugh this morning, Jen?
Oh, you know, I just pretend to laugh at him. You know, I'm just patronizing him.
Called the boss laugh. [laughter]
No, I was... Jordan's been out all week. Jordan hadn't taken a vacation in like eight years and so he finally took a vacation. So I've had to work and Jyn's had to work harder and so [music] it's just been uh but you know it worked out all right. It's fun.
Yeah. Yeah. Just now that you said that of course like all hell's going to break loose.
I know. You know, five deals.
Two more days, Jordan. Two more days. [music] I know.
But yeah, it's uh and surprisingly no corrections this week cuz normally when I'm writing there's just a multitude of corrections [music] this day after day after day. Yeah. So,
Hey, that's content in itself. All the corrections you have to make.
It kind [laughter] of is.
Yeah. If we need to fill up a slow Friday. Oh, we got corrections all week to put in there. How you doing, Sam?
S
Sam1:09
Good. It's good to see you guys faces.
U
Unknown1:11
Good to see you, too. Are you a basketball fan? May I ask?
S
Sam1:15
That was an epic game last night. [laughter] I lived in New York City. I'm sure it was not the outcome you people wanted.
U
Unknown1:21
Nope.
S
Sam1:22
It was a good game. I will give you that. It was an exciting game, but boy, what a disappointment. But you know, whatever.
U
Unknown1:29
What did we? They didn't score or they weren't up until the last what, two or three minutes.
S
Sam1:34
The Knicks.
U
Unknown1:35
Yeah. And if I had to like steelman this, I'd be like I think the refs started being fair in the second half for the first time in a game and a half. Like it was kind of the foot was on the pedal for the Spurs, I think. You know.
S
Sam1:48
Yeah.
U
Unknown1:49
That's the Yeah. Yeah. Adam Silver on the red phone to the referee association. Hey, man.
S
Sam1:56
Got to go game five.
U
Unknown1:58
Yeah.
All right. Well, let's get this party started. Jen, let's do it.
All right. All right. All right. So, I'd like to officially welcome to Beeret Radio, Sam Caligion. Dogfish Head co-founder. DFH is hitting on all cylinders, coming off of, I believe, four consecutive quarters of growth. Just celebrated the company's 30th anniversary, and are at the precipice of their big shark attack focus month within the Boston portfolio. So, we've got Sam here to tell us. He's a frequent recurring guest here on Beernet Radio. So, welcome back, Sam.
S
Samuel Calagione2:28
It's good to be back with you guys. I was bullshit when Amy Puller won that podcast award. I thought you two deserved it. [laughter]
U
Unknown2:36
Thank you, Sam. It's good to hear someone else here say it.
I guess we're not.
Did say that, too?
But anyway, so we saw you at u obviously at our own summit in January. You debuted Citrus Daydream with us and we were up there bsing with you and that was great. And you rolled out the idea of social fitness, right? Which was great. And it seemed like we were finally getting on the right track here with the bevel industry. Q1 trends were pretty good. And then you know this all this gas all the gas and the inflation and everything. So how have you guys generally broadstrokes done year to date? Have you seen the same sort of inflection that a lot of other people have?
S
Samuel Calagione3:13
Yeah, I mean we had a strong Q1. Both our beer sales, Dogfish beer sales were up low single digits and our Dogfish can cocktail sales were up high double digit. We can circle back on that a little later when we talk about spirits-based RTD and Sun Cruiser and other plays that we kind of have in that segment. But we've, as you know, the whole Northeast had a pretty shitty Memorial Day weekend, horrific weather. So, it kind of put a bump on the brakes a little bit post Q1. And we felt that a little bit here between the Mid-Atlantic coastal area and New England. But I'm proud to say that orders are coming in strong for July 4th weekend. And we only get that as a part of a portfolio company, Dogfish gets two focus months. And you're right, we used to call the summer July focus month Shark Attack, but as a brewery with a music problem and with us coming off of the April music month, we said, 'Let's just make all of our messaging about music and let's challenge ourselves to get creative on marketing programs that can create pull an awareness for the displays we plan to go out and get with our distributors in July that are also around the theme of music, whether it's on premise programs or off.'
U
Unknown4:30
Cool. And so you had that touchtones deal in April with that focus month. And so did you guys see a bump from your from your April like music month especially with in the on premise?
S
Samuel Calagione4:43
Yeah, we did. And you know the velocity on our Grateful Dead juicy pale draft continues to be amazing. Like pods haven't gone up because we did such a good job launching it last year that we lost some pods and gained some but overall I think pods are pretty static but what's up huge is that our velocity per point of distribution per draft is up in the 20s something percent and you mentioned that touch tunes that's an example and back to social fitness like us working hard to try and get young beer drinkers or just drinkers out on premise to drink beer here. And so with Touchtunes, we identified 9,000 music-centric venues and on premise accounts and then worked with the Grateful Dead to curate [snorts] stuff for Touchtunes content where we can where it's legal buy folks the opportunity to be their own DJ for their pals at a big old table and hopefully argue about music instead of politics.
U
Unknown5:43
That's that's a So I was in Chicago last week in a dive bar and the way I find dive bars is I just pull up my touch tunes app and it shows which because if a bar doesn't have touch tunes, I'm not interested because I like to I like to have walk-in music when I walk in and I can have it playing, you know, 'Girl, You'll Be a Woman Soon' by Neil Diamond or, you know, something appropriate and or 'Creep' Radiohead.
S
Samuel Calagione6:09
Sexy and Sexy and 17 [laughter] by Cats.
U
Unknown6:14
Yeah.
S
Samuel Calagione6:15
But no, it is Touch Tunes bars are typically the funnest bars is my point.
U
Unknown6:19
Yeah. Wow. We should have you as our influencer, Harry, for our touch tunes support. You got Jen. You got Jen now influencing for my pal Bill over at Athletic. I need you. [laughter] I need you, buddy, for touch.
I'm your man. Because that's what everybody wants is an old bald white guy [laughter] to represent their brands.
Yeah. It's ironic. It'll work. [laughter] Touch.
S
Samuel Calagione6:38
It looks like Harry. You're doing whatever the kids are doing now. Clavicle or whatever these power maxing kids. It looks like you do your podcast now inside of a Scandinavian steam room. Is that right?
U
Unknown6:51
Well, it's good for my skin, I've been told, and it's part of my daily regimen. Yes.
S
Samuel Calagione6:55
Yeah. I can smell the eucalyptus coming through my phone.
U
Unknown6:59
You know what, Sam? That's funny. Nobody's ever made that point before, but you're totally right. Like,
S
Samuel Calagione7:04
It does look like a sauna. Actually, the only people who have said it looks like a sauna were the finished long drink guys.
U
Unknown7:09
Well, there you go.
S
Samuel Calagione7:10
That makes sense. So, do you have a cold plunge apparatus that's below just out of screen?
U
Unknown7:15
I'm a hot tub guy. I like my water hot. So,
S
Samuel Calagione7:19
Yeah, me too. Me too. But, uh, yeah. So, staying on the and I'm really proud to be part of a working group that NBWA BIBA put together and we kind of meet quarterly in Chicago or virtually with leaders from big brewery small just to talk about that social fitness concept and getting people out to drink again. and some really encouraging work and just idea sharing is coming out of that for Dogfish beyond the touch tunes. We're also working with So Far Sound, actually down your neck of the woods. We're doing stuff with them in Austin, Boston, New York City, just sponsoring a bunch of tours of various scale bands. And then I guess another big news for us is we're launching a whiskey with our pals at Rolling Stone magazine. So that's
U
Unknown8:04
Oh, wow.
S
Samuel Calagione8:05
That's the newest news. So, we've been working on that for a whole year and that will launch in celebration of America's 250th. We're launching this whiskey that's built off of 12 tracks kind of the way you build a song. We took 12 different aged whiskeys and pulled and layered them together. Some aged on polyanto wood, some in rum barrels and wine barrels. So it's a beautiful big overproof 90 proof. And we're shipping it out kind of like Metro or New England down to Virginia is where it'll distribute and we're even co-partnering on a festival July 4th weekend on the Hudson called State Side. Dogfish and Sun Cruiser are the sponsors and Noah Kahan's going to be headlining that. It's already sold out. And we'll be doing whiskey and our whiskey cocktails and our beers at that event.
U
Unknown8:59
Cool. And that's full strength whiskey, right? Like
S
Samuel Calagione9:01
Yep. Not a can cocktail. It's 90 proof. But we commissioned this amazing artist, John Langford, who's in a punk band from the UK called the Mecons, which was a first generation punk [snorts] band from Leeds. He's also a great fine artist. And for Chesapeake and Maine, our James Beard nominated cocktail joint. He painted Patti Smith, Elvis, and Miles Davis as nautical seamen, if you will. And we named a whiskey cocktail after each of them, Inspire Beach, that we'll be serving at that festival as well.
U
Unknown9:39
I got to ask a question. And just be honest, Sam. You can be honest here. This is the podcast where your dreams come true.
Is all this music festival activity just an excuse for you and Mariah to be able to have a summer vacation all up and down the Atlantic seaboard all summer long? Is this what this is? Just a way to do that?
S
Samuel Calagione9:56
Well, you're right that Mariah and I will get VIP tickets. [laughter]
U
Unknown10:05
I follow your Instagram, dude,
S
Samuel Calagione10:07
For the Noah Kahan concert. And we were in Milan three days ago for a Pilsnerfest. I was in Minneapolis yesterday for the National Independent Venues Association, all the entrepreneurs that run music venues across the country and turning them on to the Grateful Dead stuff. So you're right that it's absolute maniacal focus on music, the overlap between music and our brand. I'm also proudly now writing I wrote for Rolling Stone magazine. I'm in the same issue as Obama for their summer issue writing about that moment in 76 when punk rock started, hip hop started. It's pretty cool that all three of those American art forms had kind of the same origin moment. So I wrote about that for Rolling Stone and I'm writing a quarterly column for Cream Magazine, the other OG sort of punk magazine. I got to interview Hall of Famer Joan Jett, Wayne Coyne, my buddy from Flaming Lips. I'm going to interview Questlove who's got a new documentary about Earth, Wind and Fire coming up. So, I'm living my rock and roll dreams.
U
Unknown11:21
You really I'm glad to see everybody says, 'Oh, the beer industry isn't fun anymore.' I'm glad to see somebody's still having fun. You know, Sam Kellod and maybe I are still having fun. We're the last two.
S
Samuel Calagione11:32
Jen is too. Although she drinks more cocktails, I think.
U
Unknown11:34
Yeah. But Jen's a workaholic, too. She has
Yeah, I was going to say Harry's got me locked in the basement. A basement of my own making. It's not a physical basement, you know.
S
Samuel Calagione11:44
It's an emotional basement.
U
Unknown11:46
It's an emotional basement. Flying to Florida next week for some junk.
Yeah. Yes. To address the wholesalers and I don't wing it like you, Harry. I like take it very seriously. So that's like anyway. But I love you Mississippi wholesalers. So Sam, like definitely you guys are doubling down on your musical DNA and that's I mean is part of that because you guys saw so much success with the Juicy Pale that you realize like this is really what consumers want from us or is it not that?
S
Samuel Calagione12:17
I think it's like you find a niche and scratch it. If you look at our holy trinity from day one was original beer, original food, original music. We never wavered from that. We always had national bands play our stage and we did our Analog-A-Go-Go Fest. We've been the official brewery of Record Store Day for 11 years. But we decided, we don't have the scale of spend of other top 20 craft breweries because we are so social media oriented, not traditional marketing oriented. So, we're like, we got to just lean further into what we're good at. And it's storytelling around this intersection and this love of beer, canned cocktails and music. And so we did kind of extend that love into the canned cocktail space. We've had it all along for beer. But with what we're doing now with Rolling Stone magazine for this whiskey and then there'll be an announcement with an epic one of the highest selling fine artists in the world. Currently we'll be announcing something on the can cocktail front with them. So, we're going to keep doing stuff in that arts and music space because it just feels so right for our brand.
U
Unknown13:26
Yeah. Is it So, and to be clear, you can't share that yet. Is that a hint? Okay. Is it the guy who sold the banana on the wall at the MoMA or whatever for millions? Is that guy [laughter]
S
Samuel Calagione13:40
Zensky? What was his name?
U
Unknown13:42
Oh, no. Bangsy. I don't That's not the same guy, but maybe
S
Samuel Calagione13:45
They just revealed BY's. It's neither By nor the banana guy, but [laughter] you're close. I'll say that.
U
Unknown13:53
It's the other one.
So then, okay. So then what are your top three priorities for July focus month then?
S
Samuel Calagione14:01
I would say in partnership with our BBC sales team and our distributors, if I had to name three, it'd be number one, getting 60-minute next to both Grateful Dead beers everywhere off-prem. As you know, we only launched the Citrus Daydream in cans, not in draft because we didn't want to screw with the momentum of the best minute series first quarter that we've had since 2022. So we said, 'Let's only do the second Dead beer in cans so that we can create a billboard off-prem, but only focusing on bringing that in on prem in cans.' We have a really fun program called Michelada Dead because that beer with the black limes, that lager is so good in Michelada. We discovered it at South by Southwest where I saw you in the airport. I tackled him in the airport [laughter] and a bartender down at the Yeti store down there on South Congress came up with this epic mix to make a Michelada out of that Dead beer and we're like, 'Holy shit.' And now we're testing it in markets with a special pint glass that describes the menu. So, we think that's a cool on-prem play for the can because we don't have draft for it. But back to your question, top three, getting those three beers everywhere. Number two, can cocktail displays, especially going after the markets where we have a strong Sun Cruiser momentum and even sinless momentum and really do you know BBC now having a spirits-based RTD that can fill up half of a coal box window shelf across those three brands is something that we see awesome latent opportunity with. On the can cocktail front. June 15th, we're launching our secret stash cooler, which you know how you bring your cooler to a barbecue or a picnic, but this is one that fits 24 beers but has a secret compartment for two slim cans so you can hide your favorite two drinks. [laughter]
U
Unknown16:08
That's funny.
I need that.
Yeah.
S
Samuel Calagione16:13
So that's launching. That's something super innovative that we're really proud of. And then third behind can cocktails I would say a really great roll out of the Rolling Stone whiskey because while Dogfish has made foolproof spirits for 25 years, BBC sales does not do a lot of focus on the points of distribution that are based on foolproof spirits. So that's something we're excited to be testing. Yeah, so that's the three.
U
Unknown16:40
Are you testing the whiskey? Is it going to go through beer or wine spirits?
S
Samuel Calagione16:44
Beer, all the same wholesalers that we have for everything else in the BBC portfolio. And really just like I said, like maybe Connecticut or Massachusetts down to Northern Virginia and not really even off of the non-coastal states to start with. So, we'll see where that goes.
U
Unknown17:02
Okay, cool. So, there's you're saying there's a chance
S
Samuel Calagione17:05
That it gets to you someday.
U
Unknown17:06
That it gets to us someday. And then do you guys forgive me I feel like I've asked you this so many times Sam but does Dogfish have jurisdiction over Sun Cruiser in terms of sales and marketing on the ground or not really it's more BBC?
S
Samuel Calagione17:18
No, it's BBC. I mean, we do some of the packages at Milton of that and we're really proud. As you referenced, we consider Milton the Jaguar with ADD. It is the R&D hub not just for Dogfish but our brewery location has a distillery in it. We're allowed to mess with ciders, can cocktails, meat, apple, we can do anything we want to make in our facility. So we are like the small-scale proving ground for any really new BBC not just Dogfish innovation. So Sun Cruiser sinless was born and incubated in Milton. One thing we can't do here is packaging other than slim and 192 and 12 ounce. So for example, Lit with our super unique light bulb packaging, that is one that we developed in-house at BBC but we are working with a third party because it has that unique proprietary package. And before you guys ask, it's too early for us to share Lit trends but we're really excited about the launch of that puppy.
U
Unknown18:32
Yeah, it's supposed to come to Texas. I haven't seen it here yet but we're waiting with baited breath. Bill already has been to the stores looking for it.
S
Samuel Calagione18:42
Yeah. [laughter]
U
Unknown18:43
So,
Oh, I want to try it, too. And I think the packaging is cool. It'll make an impact. Let's put it that way for sure.
Yeah.
So, what else? I mean, I have to ask Sam, what else is coming out of that Milton Jaguar, right? Like, can you share anything because I know you guys have a little incubator model like three wholesalers kind of pilot things that come out of there. Anything ready for prime time?
S
Samuel Calagione19:07
I'd say we've done like sonic archaeology and ready-to-pours at our own properties for well over a decade. But props to brands like On the Rocks and stuff that is a space that we do have an interest in and you'll probably hear of more coming from brand Dogfish not at the 7% ABV can cocktail level or the 90 proof whiskey level but somewhere in the middle in ready-to-pour space. So, more to come on that. That'll be the one tease that I think is on the horizon that I'll get yelled at for sharing here. [laughter] But love you guys. Love you guys. So, I wanted to share that.
U
Unknown19:47
Thank you. [laughter]
S
Samuel Calagione19:49
And we're testing Wild Leaf, which is our sort of higher-end malt-based tea. And as you guys know, our Twisted Tea trends are challenged. But if you combine the successful trajectory of Sun Cruiser and Twisted Tea, we're kind of even in cases. And it'll be interesting to see, we're just testing Wild Leaf in a few markets, like you said, the three market test, but that could be another kind of elevated space for malt-based teas. But yeah, are you guys having any local vodka teas down in Texas coming to the market? We know we're growing the heck out of Sun Cruiser.
U
Unknown20:25
Not that I've noticed. Have you heard
S
Samuel Calagione20:27
Did Deep Eddy have a seltzer? I mean
U
Unknown20:30
I'm sure they did
S
Samuel Calagione20:31
We have one called Epic West.
U
Unknown20:34
San I don't think it does that well I don't see it very in very anyway nah not really
S
Samuel Calagione20:40
I mean unless Tito's does something we do [laughter]
U
Unknown20:43
Which they won't
S
Samuel Calagione20:45
Until things get real bad and then they will.
U
Unknown20:48
Well, what do you think Sam about you know you mentioned July 4th you guys have something going there but generally what are your predictions for how much July 4th and the World Cup are going to help out beer. You know, we have this survey going. And there's a decent amount of wholesalers, probably because of the way we wrote the options, but there's a decent amount of wholesalers who think World Cup could result in a 1 to 3% lift. There were a couple that even said more than 3%. Now, I feel like that's a pipe dream. It could also be the particular market they're in, but what are your thoughts generally?
S
Samuel Calagione21:22
Yeah, and I was just out with our Kansas City guys who came into our events in Minneapolis. So seeing like a non-first tier scale city what the impact has been for truly displays and tea. I think that one to three lift sounds right if you blend it across the markets that have some World Cup close to them with those that don't. But we do see already the amount of displays we're getting particularly for those two brands is exactly where we'd hoped to be and now we're just hoping the velocity with the awareness will be there. And then we have a really great program that's actually going on in June through July 4th for the 250th for our Sam Adams brand. So that's obviously the most patriotic beer brand in America needs to lean into that moment. And there's obviously a shit ton of CPG brands across all kinds of categories celebrating the 250th, but we think we got a really great plan there. So, we think those three brands will see a really good summer based on 250th and World Cup.
U
Unknown22:26
Here's what I predict. I predict that the not your husband, Jim, but some of the Wall Street analysts will look at just scan data and be like, 'It hasn't helped. It hasn't helped.' But we got to remember that I know every sports bar in San Antonio and Irish bar are gearing up getting more TVs so I expect an on-premise lift too.
S
Samuel Calagione22:46
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that'll probably be harder to state objectively as it's happening but probably in August the dust will settle and we'll see. So, we're super encouraged and we know generally I'm guessing your distributor customers are saying decent Q1 challenging Q2. Is that generally the message you're hearing?
U
Unknown23:12
Yeah. We didn't ask that specific question, but what I also will tell you is versus last year, because we do this survey every year, versus last year, distributors are feeling better about their businesses, which is kind of shocking considering the last month or two, right? But generally they are a little more bullish which is good.
S
Samuel Calagione23:32
Can I blame the weather? I know we're not supposed to do that but the second quarter just had the worst weather. And so that's good news to me that this
U
Unknown23:40
It can't get worse. It can't get worse from a weather standpoint when you talk to your distributors. Do you think some of their being more bullish is about the Beyond Beer and Non-Alc opportunity compared to traditional beer and sort of what of those segments are they talking about?
Yeah, we didn't go that granular into why. I mean, some of the newest innovations, which we use loosely, I guess they use it kind of on a two-year timeframe. Some of the innovations that they're super excited about are exactly like MC Ultra Zero, Sun Cruiser, you know, these are some of the ones. When we asked about [clears throat] what they are focused most on, more said core than last year, more said core beer than last year. But canned cocktails as a focus grew. I think it was like 11% said they were focusing the most on canned cocktails last year and this year it's closer to like 18%. So yeah, I think that's definitely partially driving it, but it sounds like they're doubling down on core too and in the comments a lot of people did say there needs to be more focus. On the other hand, they're also saying we'll take anything that fits on our truck. [laughter]
S
Samuel Calagione24:50
And how does that intersect with the bets people are playing on what's going to happen to hemp-based THC? And I say that because I'm coming out of this live music venue conference in Minneapolis, which is one of the hotbeds of THC. And a lot of those venues, the challenges of on-prem, if it wasn't for THC beverages, they'd be in trouble. So, they're really anxious because those beverages seem to go very well with live music. So, they're very interested to see what's going to happen on a state-by-state level and federally. What do you guys what's the tea leaves telling you guys?
U
Unknown25:27
Yeah, [laughter] go ahead.
And I kind of seesaw week to week. I go whoever I talked to last. I'm kind of like Trump. I just repeat whoever [laughter] you know I'm like and you know earlier that month ago I was like oh I'm optimistic they're going to get something through at the federal level or at least kick the can down the road and then these bills have kind of failed or you know so I don't know man it doesn't look good federally at least but I mean
Yeah federally at least but I mean
I mean you could still produce within a state and ship within the state. But that really takes the scale out of it and that's not going to drive investment in the category. So
S
Samuel Calagione26:11
Yeah, it may not completely go away. It's just not going to be a big category. And by the way, I'm the KGB. I ask the questions here.
U
Unknown26:19
Okay, go ahead. Go. [laughter]
S
Samuel Calagione26:20
I'm teasing. You know me, I love to talk. I wish I could I wish everybody just ask me questions. Go ahead.
U
Unknown26:28
Yeah. No. And in the survey, we did ask about you know, if hemp THC goes away, how much of a hit will it be? And almost everyone that said it would affect them said it would just be losing a small but fast growing revenue stream. And it's not material to their businesses, most of them at this point. So yeah,
S
Samuel Calagione26:49
Yeah, compared to certain retail groups like Total Wine who have overindexed, you know, props to them for being early to move on the category, but I wonder when they're celebrating how big of a chunk of their revenue in the store it is, what their look at this is right now.
U
Unknown27:09
Yeah, it seems to be huge for them. I mean, the rows of craft that used to be craft for them are now rows of hemp THC drinks.
S
Samuel Calagione27:20
Yeah. And then let's think about what that means if all hemp goes away, right? You know, I can name breweries within a 100 miles of where I'm sitting in coastal Delaware right now that I think it'll be a real challenge for them to make it if this goes away because you talked about the revenue per SKU is really profitable for them and if that component goes away and they've frankly shifted a lot of their resources some of them away from trying to push on their craft beer brands and to just fill up their dark capacity with their own THC brands or with contract brewed THC brands and now what will happen if that goes away if they were not focused on the frankly less sexy and harder category of craft beer right now. I think there's going to be some smaller breweries and midsize breweries that really invested in equipment and marketing bandwidth that are on THC that are going to have some challenges if it goes away.
U
Unknown28:19
Yeah, that's a great point. Yet another headwind because I did some research earlier this week and it's hard to get real numbers, but the number I keep seeing is that craft is at like 60% capacity utilization across the country.
S
Samuel Calagione28:37
That may not be a totally accurate number, but it kind of sounds about right. And it's hard to make money for everybody when there's that much capacity. I mean, you really need to be at 85 or 90%. So, my point of saying that is to ask you a question. I mean, don't you see like just more M&A and more closures unless something big happens?
I do. And I see some really smart like my buddies at Yards and Two Roads, I see a lot of smart and sort of what I call some smart and humble craft on craft M&A where it's less and less likely that big PE or top 10 global craft players are coming in for a straight craft buy of a brand or a company. But those that are sitting on big fractions of dark capacity are talking to each other and saying, let's combine. I'm great buddies with Tim Adams who owns Oxbow in Maine and in the last two years things have slowed down. Instead of retracting, he went out and bought Rising Tide, another strong local brand. And one's more lager oriented, one's more also put them together kind of like we put together Sam Adams and Dogfish in one beer portfolio. I love seeing ideas like that. And then it keeps the founders engaged and it gives them scale and efficiencies that they a lot of them don't have on their own right now.
U
Unknown30:07
It'd probably be good if some of this iron got stripped out of the ground, too. Do like the Pearl, make it a mixed-use facility, just so they're not brewing. Lutis made a whole career when he was CEO of Paps, but he would just rip iron out of the ground and ship it to China, sell it, and then raise prices. Anyways, I'm getting on a tangent again. [laughter] So, uh, go ahead, Jen.
We're hearing from a lot of distributors that c-stores, and you can see it, right? C-stores are getting tougher obviously because of macro environment. Are you guys seeing that generally? And what do you see as the bright spot then? Is it the on-prem?
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Samuel Calagione30:44
I would say on the c-store bright spot is I would say yes, we're seeing challenges on Twisted Tea and Truly probably our two biggest c-store oriented brands, but we're seeing some encouraging stuff coming through on Sun Cruiser and Dogfish got our can cocktails into 192s. That's been helpful for that class of trade for us. So I think on those two brands we're pleasantly getting some tailwinds in c-stores but for the bigger two brands especially when you're correlating the 30 foot walk from a gas pump at $5 a gallon to that coal c-store shelf, a lot of people are just feeling that right now. And I think you see that also with big box off-prem and there's a lot of talk about how we're out of balance, how bifurcated the price of a can of beer is on prem versus in a 30 pack from a big box store and that gets exacerbated in a weak economy. So, I think we'll be fighting that through the summer as well. So the bright spots in c-stores are in the minority and the headwinds are more real.
U
Unknown31:56
You know, one of the things that I thought of the other day when we were talking about having you on is it seems like you and Mariah have really found a sweet spot where you got acquired by a larger publicly traded company, but you get the benefits of a publicly traded company, but you've also kind of carved a lane where you and Mariah can do the best work, especially on the East Coast and doing this going back to the roots of beer, which is on premise and tie it to music and it sounds like you're having fun. So, is that a fair assessment?
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Samuel Calagione32:31
Very much so. And I would just extend it to the playground and we're really loving that we get to have fun with the other brands, too. So tomorrow we put my Boston whaler in a trailer and me and nine brewers, five of which from the Sam Adams side and four plus me from Dogfish are going to Maine and we're going to get in a whaler and go to lobster shacks but drink all these different lagers up in Maine and meet with the owners of these little breweries. And we're brewing in my little one barrel brewery up there in Maine a really innovative lager that we think could have legs under the Sam Adams brand. And those are the kind of, to your point Harry, those are the wonderfully luxurious creative projects that I get to work on now. So I'm very thankful to Jim and Mike Crowley who oversees all our sales and Phil our COO because those are the parts of the job Mariah and I used to have to focus on when we were mom and pop that we were not so good at. But the values-led community-building collaborative projects that we were good at now we can spend more of our time at. And I think that not only helps us personally mentally with happiness, but it helps our company too. So, it is a really fun moment.
U
Unknown33:47
Good. I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to see it because everybody's kind of down right now, but I like hearing good news.
S
Samuel Calagione33:54
I do.
U
Unknown33:54
That's right. You heard it here. Good news. Everybody happy.
S
Samuel Calagione33:58
The Good News podcast.
U
Unknown33:59
That's right. [laughter] You guys, not always. Was kind of a downer sometimes.
Not always,
but uh
S
Samuel Calagione34:04
Just today.
U
Unknown34:05
Sam, thank you for spending time with us on Beeret Radio. I hope some of your dreams come true today and I'm sure we'll see you coming on down the road somewhere. Jen will be in Mississippi if you happen to be there.
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Samuel Calagione34:17
They definitely are coming true this afternoon. I plan to have two or three Citrus Daydreams by the time the sun goes down.
U
Unknown34:24
All right.
Nice. Good. All right, guys. All right. Awesome. Catch up with you guys. See you soon. Thank you.