Former Executive Vice President & Chief Product Officer, PayPal
How to stop being angry at life | John Kim | Unstoppable #110
Can you imagine being in therapy with a man riding a bike and that calls himself “The Angry Therapist”?
After going through a divorce and experiencing a ‘rebirth’ John Kim started his coaching movement, calling himself “The Angry Therapist”. He built a devoted following who loved his authenticity and transparency by sharing his story, something that therapists are not allowed to do. John became known as an “unconventional therapist” as he started to see his clients at the gym, a coffee shop, or even hikes.
In this episode of Unstoppable, we talk about how to manage anger, the importance of...
About John Kim
John Kim, former Executive Vice President and Chief Product Officer at PayPal and now CEO of the recruiting marketplace Paraform, appeared in a June 2026 interview discussing the impact of AI on hiring. Kim argued that AI has worsened hiring noise, with good engineers now receiving 1,000 recruiting messages per week and companies receiving 100,000 applications per role, making human recruiters more valuable rather than less. He described recruiting as "the most consequential matchmaking problem," stating that "humanity's progress and innovation is made by people" and that matching the right person to the right problem is critical. Kim also shared advice for workers in the AI era, suggesting that individuals should think deeply about what AI is good at and what humans are good at, then "go deep" on the latter. He stated that technical skills like writing TypeScript are "no longer valuable" and "free," and that roles in sales and product sense are seeing increased value. Kim recounted his company's early struggles, noting that startups only "die when founders give up or you run out of money," and described a late-night brainstorming session where he and his co-founder jokingly considered "combining TikTok and DoorDash" to solve hiring challenges.
Transcript (116 segments)
✨ AI-enhanced transcript with speaker attribution
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John Kim0:01
It's like when you taste healthy love, what you were attracted to now repels you. Vulnerable, kinder, more compassionate, more understanding, curious instead of judgmental, all of that stuff. I think that makes us three-dimensional and more human. If you allow what's happening to harden you, you're going to have a fist and you're going to punch walls and you're going to be who I was 10 years ago, which is angry and unhappy and think that the world is not fair. I think this stuff should be taught in high school instead of geometry and things that we never use, right? If we were taught what a boundary looks like and how to do it and why it's important and to start setting those, there would be more self-esteem in this world.
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Narrator0:45
This episode is brought to you by Nilet and Skilet, the world's leading fast-growth program for businesses. If you have ever wanted to grow your business faster than what you can right now, if you need to make more revenue, if you need more leads, if you need more clients, if you need to know how to plan your business in a strategic way in order to hit big goals, if you need to learn how to scale your business and grow your team and your business so that you have more freedom, then this program is for you. Imagine 3 days immersed with me where we cover all aspects of business, but we do it from an immersive but also an execution standpoint. We execute every step of the way. And we are looking at five key areas: your psychology, your marketing, your sales, your leadership, and your planning, and how we integrate these five key areas to grow your business and your brand quickly. So if you'd like to find out more information, curtisray.com.
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Kerwin Rae1:31
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my absolute pleasure to welcome to Unstoppable today, known as the Angry Therapist, John Kim. Great to have you here, mate. I love your voice, man. Your voice is very — the energy behind your voice is explosive but calm. I love it. I love it. Thank you.
J
John Kim1:50
Thank you. Thank you, brother. Thank you for having me.
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Kerwin Rae1:52
No, it's good to have you here. I almost expect you to go, 'Thank you! It's good to be here!'
J
John Kim1:56
Sorry I didn't blow your eardrums out there.
K
Kerwin Rae1:58
Mate, I've
J
John Kim1:59
No, but that was that was 10 years ago, maybe.
K
Kerwin Rae2:01
Yeah, right. Okay, so there was an angry man in there at some point.
J
John Kim2:05
Yeah, for sure.
K
Kerwin Rae2:05
Oh, that's amazing. And I'm keen to find out more about this journey. Um, I got to say, when my producers put you across my desk, I was interested, but what's interesting is I'd already heard about you. I already stumbled upon you in a couple of articles. So yeah, this is a little bit serendipitous for me, but I am curious. And I ask all my guests this question. Well, I've only started asking in the last couple of months. You know, you clearly do a lot. You've had a big life, you've done a range of different things, but when you're in a dinner party, a group of six or eight people and no one knows who you are, and somebody asks that question, everybody drops silent, 'So, what do you do, John?' How do you answer that question?
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John Kim2:47
I used to just say, you know, I'm a therapist. Um, and it's interesting when you say you're a therapist, people either get really quiet or they want a session right there, you know? It's like when you say you're a police officer, they either go one way or the other. So now I don't know what I call myself. I guess an author, you know? But I'm still a therapist, you know? So I don't mind just saying I'm a therapist or an author.
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Kerwin Rae3:12
Well, you're actually a legit — you're a licensed marriage and family therapist.
J
John Kim3:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm legit.
K
Kerwin Rae3:17
But you're not just someone who's like putting fake credentials on the wall. And you're doing really good stuff. But what I'm curious to know, mate, is where did it all begin? Because you haven't always been a therapist.
J
John Kim3:25
No, no. Um, it started with a broken heart. It started 10 years ago when I went through a divorce and a rebirth. Um, I was before that I was a screenwriter.
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Kerwin Rae3:38
No kidding. I'm going to assume you're being a screenwriter, you clearly live in California, you're in LA.
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John Kim3:45
Yeah, been here for my entire life. Um, LA, all over LA.
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Kerwin Rae3:49
Yeah, right. Let me guess, right now West Hollywood. Am I right?
J
John Kim3:53
No, close. Um, Pasadena Glendale area, but you know, everything's 30 minutes away in LA.
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Kerwin Rae3:59
Yeah, fair. And how is it in LA at the moment? What's the temperature like? In terms of Corona, everything else that's going on?
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John Kim4:08
Yeah, the temperature's gorgeous as always. Um, yeah, but it's weird because not a lot of people are out. Things are closed, of course. I don't know how it is over there. Um, but the air quality's amazing and there's no traffic.
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Kerwin Rae4:23
Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, so. And so, you were a screenwriter. And so, everybody goes to LA to be a screenwriter, but then how do you transition from being a screenwriter or an actor or you know, it's that hard. But how do you transition from screenwriter to family, you know, angry therapist?
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John Kim4:39
Um, grinding a lot and realizing that writing screenplays wasn't making you happy, it wasn't fulfilling. Um, and then at the same time going through a marriage that was falling apart. So it was a combination of all of that stuff. Um, I pursued screenwriting for about 9 years, went to film school, was really passionate about it. And somewhere along the journey, I lost my sense of self. And I think I was doing it for the wrong reasons, chasing shiny things.
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Kerwin Rae5:12
Yeah, right. It seems to me there's a possibility that that skill might be able to come back and serve you at some point in the future. I can actually see a movie title, The Angry Therapist.
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John Kim5:21
Yeah, it's weird the way the universe works. There, I mean, because of my book I just became a viral fact, there's been some possible production or movie stuff like that. Um, but I'm a different person now and it's not what I'm meant to do. Um, so I try to detach from that.
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Kerwin Rae5:38
It was about 9, 10 years ago you went through the relationship breakdown?
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John Kim5:41
Yep, around 9 or 10 years ago.
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Kerwin Rae5:44
Yeah, wow, it's been a decade. Yeah, wow. And so, was that the epitome of the dark night for the soul for you? Is that what brought you to therapy? Is it the breakdown that brought you to therapy?
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John Kim5:53
I was already in therapy trying to work on myself to fix my marriage. Um, but I don't think I was really doing the work, right? I was in it because I was afraid and I wanted to do my piece in fixing something. Um, and then once I got divorced and started all over with nothing, no friends, no money, no career, then I started to do it for myself. Like for the first time in my life actually get on a path of working on me.
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Kerwin Rae6:23
You weren't trying to work on yourself to please someone else. You weren't trying to work on yourself to save a marriage. All of a sudden you started to work on yourself for you. Holy, I didn't even realize that I had actually done that exact same thing until you said that. I spent a period of my time when I was married doing exactly the same thing. That's so interesting. And so, did you reach a pretty dark place yourself personally before you came out?
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John Kim6:45
Yeah, um, absolutely. I hit my version of rock bottom and it was in all areas of my life. So, my career wasn't working out. Um, I spent most of my days 14 hours a day at a coffee shop trying to write the million-dollar screenplay. And so, by doing that I had no self-care. I had no joy in my life, I had no friends, I had no money. Um, and then the divorce was the straw that broke the camel's back that made me realize I need to change my life. I need to be someone different or I'm just going to stay miserable, you know?
K
Kerwin Rae7:21
And so, rebuilding your life whilst going through therapy for yourself, what does that look like? Like because you've got no money, you've got no job, you've got no relationship. How did you start rebuilding?
J
John Kim7:31
Um, I well, at this point I was in therapy school becoming a therapist.
K
Kerwin Rae7:36
You'd already gone into therapy school at this point.
J
John Kim7:40
Yeah, at this point I wasn't licensed, but it's a long road. I was in grad school at 35. Um, I was doing something I never thought I would do, which is go back to school. I'm a C student, I hate school. Um, but I love psychology. And the universe threw me into nonprofit. And I was making like 35 grand a year, had great benefits, but it wasn't what I imagined a therapist to be. I wanted to be like Dr. Drew, have a fancy office with silver balls and walk in with a latte. But in nonprofit, I worked with addicts. And I realized that we live in a fatherless nation. That dad's not home either emotionally or physically. And so working with addicts and teenagers, I grew a fire in my belly to go on this journey of what it looks like to be a man. All of these hard questions. And although I was helping them, I felt like they were helping me. I just didn't know it at the time.
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Kerwin Rae8:42
It's so interesting because I find the same construct whenever I'm doing an intervention or a coaching session. I often find myself reflecting, projecting in some respect, and hearing my own story and coaching myself. Do you remember the moment when you were in therapy for yourself where you decided that that was going to be your life from a commercial perspective?
J
John Kim9:05
Yeah, uh, I was talking to my own therapist and he said, 'If you can't write screenplays, if you can't make movies, what do you want to do with your life?' And I was like, 'Man, I want to do what you're doing. If I can't move people by the masses, I want to do it one at a time. I've always loved psychology.' And he said, 'Well, then do it.' And I said, 'No, I don't want to go back to school, I hate school.' And he said, 'You just need a master's. It's a couple of years.' So I did that. What he didn't tell me is you need 3,000 hours to become licensed, which ended up taking me 6 years.
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Kerwin Rae9:40
Wow. Yeah, yeah. That was a long journey, man.
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John Kim9:42
Yeah.
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Kerwin Rae9:42
And that's a part of your journey in the not-for-profit sector, I'm assuming, because that's where you started to get your 3,000 hours. Correct?
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John Kim9:48
Yep. And it was like that Rocky song came on and I was the basement guy doing pull-ups. I found CrossFit, got some tattoos, got a motorcycle, and I went on my version of Eat Pray Love. Finding myself through barbells and donuts and two wheels instead of going on exotic adventures which I couldn't afford.
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Kerwin Rae10:13
Yeah. But I'm going to assume the gift of being thrown into a not-for-profit early in your career is it would have given you a disproportionate level of experience that most therapists would wait decades to receive because you're probably dealing with the worst of the worst.
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John Kim10:34
Yes. The trenches. The absolute trenches.
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Kerwin Rae10:38
And so was that quite confronting because you've gone from this expectation of being a therapist in a certain context to working with addicts and people who've been abused? Was that a shock?
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John Kim10:59
100%. I had a lot of resistance. I was waving my master's thinking I was better than them, and I didn't sign up to work in nonprofit, wear a uniform, and work with teenagers. I felt like a school counselor. Um, and it was really humbling. But once I was able to let go of my ego and my definitions of what a therapist looked like, it was almost a spiritual experience that changed my life. The bonds I created with those kids changed me forever.
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Kerwin Rae11:32
And you made a quote which I wrote down. You said you realized that we're living in a fatherless nation. What do you mean by that?
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John Kim11:40
Um, so over the 5 years I was there, I probably helped close to a thousand kids, and meeting all their parents and realizing that dad's not there, either emotionally gone or physically gone. So I saw the byproduct of that: boys either trying to be me or fight me, and girls standing too close, no boundaries. They lacked this emotional milk that they didn't get, and that's why they were addicts, always coping or numbing to fill a void. And then I got the fire to think about what it looks like to be a man, and I was a total boy at that point. So I went on my little man journey as a 35-year-old boy.
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Kerwin Rae12:23
35-year-old angry boy. We're going to get to the angry part in a moment, but what does that journey look like when you start to realize, 'Well, I'm 35 years of age, but I'm still a kid inside. How do you become a man at 35?'
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John Kim12:39
Oh god. I think it's different for everyone. I think it starts with really looking inward: who am I, what is my worth, what is my passion. It's this idea of living inside out instead of outside in. And I think I lived most of my life, especially growing up in Hollywood where there's a lot of shiny things, living outside in, exchanging my truth for membership, trying to be someone I'm not. And then nonprofit stripped me of that and threw me into the trenches, and I started to humanize myself and ask hard questions like who I am and where I want to go.
K
Kerwin Rae13:22
Was there any reparenting involved in that? Like reparenting the younger version of yourself?
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John Kim13:29
Yeah. Um, it was a lot of being alone and connecting to parts of myself that I've locked away.
K
Kerwin Rae13:37
Totally. Had you identified elements of codependence that were keeping you in a loop that you realized you needed some isolation, some solitude to work it out on your own?
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John Kim13:46
Yeah. Um, I think in my marriage I was very codependent, very sticky, a lot of dysfunction. My dad's an alcoholic, so I've got the addictive gene. I was angry, reactive, all of that. And the divorce cut me at my knees and made me finally start looking at that, where it's coming from, how it's affecting my relationships, and what I can do to change.
K
Kerwin Rae14:11
And when did the angry moniker come in? Cuz you seem such a calm, chill dude, like you just stepped out of a meditation center.
J
John Kim14:19
No, it's cuz I'm 47 now.
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Kerwin Rae14:21
I could say the same thing.
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John Kim14:23
Man, I think I was angry because I was unhappy. I was angry because life wasn't going as I planned. And when I went through this rebirth, I had a lot of time on my hands, and Tumblr was kind of big at the time, so I created a blog and called it The Angry Therapist because I thought it was funny that a therapist is angry. But what I was saying without knowing it is that I'm human. So I started to post about my feelings, very transparent and vulnerable. And then I think people thought it was interesting that there was this Korean guy on motorcycles with tattoos talking about his feelings. And that started everything for me.
K
Kerwin Rae15:08
And did you notice that you kind of attracted a certain type of market or demographic that resonated with the message you were putting out there?
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John Kim15:18
Yeah, so I started to write about love, going through a breakup, looking at the black box. And I documented CrossFit stuff, working out, self-care. And it ended up attracting a lot of women between 30 and 50. I think I represented a guy who was working on himself or talking about love and being vulnerable, and maybe that was lacking in their life. Fast forward to now, I'm 47, been on this journey for 12 years. I've published 'I Used to Be as Miserable as F***' and sold another book 'Single on Purpose' for 2021.
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Kerwin Rae16:36
So the screenwriting skills have come in very handy, I'm going to assume.
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John Kim16:44
Yeah, I'm realizing how the universe plants seeds and a boomerang comes back in ways you never thought. I still channel my writing, but now self-improvement books.
K
Kerwin Rae17:00
Do you still do one-on-one work?
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John Kim17:05
Not a lot, but once in a while. I'm using social media, videos to throw a wider net. People say my therapy is unconventional. I couldn't afford an office, so I met people at coffee shops, called myself a coach. I used webcam when that was new. I met people at a lake, the gym. I showed up as myself on my Harley with jeans and a T-shirt, and people liked it. I think the new generation is more interested in who you are than the letters after your name.
K
Kerwin Rae18:25
Wow, what an authentic way to present. And what a way to disrupt.
J
John Kim18:32
I didn't do it on purpose.
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Kerwin Rae18:33
No, I can tell you didn't do it on purpose, but I'm speaking to what you've shared. Showing up on a Harley, taking someone into a CrossFit gym, that disarms someone straight away. Do you think therapy could go that way in the future legally?
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John Kim19:31
I hope so. The clinical world needs an update. When I started, you weren't supposed to see anyone out of your state online. Now we have the technology to jump into anyone's living room. Why not use it? I think the stigma of therapy is dissolving, and COVID is forcing online consultations. Group work via Zoom is powerful for therapy.
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Kerwin Rae21:02
Absolutely. There's a lot of stuff happening that's going to change. What have you found more effective, group or individual?
J
John Kim22:40
Group. Group is so powerful. Have you seen 'The Breakfast Club'? It's about kids in detention bonding. Group is like that — different walks of life growing through each other. With technology like Zoom, it's going to be the new way and cheaper.
K
Kerwin Rae23:21
It's interesting because I find far more traction in group environments. What's the one thing the world needs right now?
J
John Kim24:40
Oh man. I think the world needs to either harden us or soften us. When forced to sit still, you can run away from yourself or toward. Running toward yourself means examining what's coming up. Running away means being judgmental, reacting, disconnecting. We need to become vulnerable, kinder, more compassionate, curious instead of judgmental. That makes us three-dimensional and more human. If you harden, you'll be who I was 10 years ago.
K
Kerwin Rae26:17
If you had 5 minutes to give advice to someone in that situation, what would you say?
J
John Kim26:44
I talk about containers — our life space. A lot of us have cracked containers. You can rebuild your life space. Also, we have a pseudo self and a solid self. Most of us listen to the pseudo self. Start listening to your solid self, that quiet whisper. That's what I did — my Hollywood days were pseudo, my solid self after divorce asked 'What is my truth?' Keep listening until that voice grows louder, and live inside out.
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Kerwin Rae28:02
I think relationships are a hot topic. You mentioned pseudo self. I was the ultimate chameleon, but after years of that I lost myself. It helped me understand why my relationships played out the way they did — two pseudos trying to have a relationship without knowing the solid self.
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John Kim29:32
Yeah, cardboard cutouts instead of actual people.
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Kerwin Rae29:35
What was the catalyst that made you start listening to your solid self? I had a coaching session from a friend who called me out, then I witnessed a woman have a heart attack, and I saw a plaque with my birth year. That was a moment.
J
John Kim30:33
Wow.
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Kerwin Rae30:35
I made some big choices. I took 2 years off to do nothing and find out who I was.
J
John Kim30:57
Are you familiar with David Deida? His book 'The Way of the Superior Man' inspired me after my divorce. He talks about the importance of doing nothing to find your genuine purpose. That's what I did.
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Kerwin Rae31:28
Yeah, and this is what's happening with the world now — forced to do nothing. It can trigger awareness and growth. When you start seeing pseudo in others, how do you navigate without judging them?
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John Kim34:34
As you become more authentic, you draw boundaries. But if you go to the extreme of creating your own island, that's pseudo. Solid self is vulnerability and compassion. Instead of judging pseudo in others, try to understand where it's coming from. Be a catalyst, not a judge.
K
Kerwin Rae35:40
Oh, I love this conversation. Now, given your experience with addiction, what advice would you give to someone who recognizes they have an issue but hasn't gotten help?
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John Kim36:22
Usually you have to hit rock bottom. The addict puts the addiction above everything. They have to lose something to say 'I can't do this anymore.' For those on a milder spectrum, actually take action. Reading books isn't enough. You have to change your life, your perspective. There's a difference between being interested and being committed.
K
Kerwin Rae38:16
What are the benefits you've seen of addiction?
J
John Kim38:32
They're charming and charismatic. Obsession can be redirected into positive things like fitness. The gift is that if you get obsessed with something positive, you'll be really good at it. But the flip side is pressure and lack of balance. It's all or nothing.
K
Kerwin Rae39:20
I can relate to that. I want to go back to boundaries. Would you say many relationship issues could be managed with a greater understanding of boundaries?
J
John Kim40:04
Yeah, I think this stuff should be taught in high school instead of geometry. If we were taught what a boundary looks like and how to set them, there would be more self-esteem in the world. Boundaries are everything. If you don't know how to set a boundary, you're puncturing your self-esteem. It's about examining your relationship with yourself. The stronger that is, the more naturally boundaries come.
K
Kerwin Rae42:49
That's so interesting. In school we're taught many irrelevant things, but not how to relate to ourselves.
J
John Kim43:05
No one talks about that, especially with men. That's why we chase the scoreboard, finding worth in the external because our relationship with ourselves is neglected.
K
Kerwin Rae43:21
You've brought up men and toxic masculinity. How do you have that conversation about what it means to be a man?
J
John Kim43:48
I don't put my definitions on anyone else. We all need to go on our own journey. The men that don't look inward are angry, dangerous, reactive. That's toxic masculinity. When you decide to look inward, be vulnerable, and want to be a better version of yourself, that's the beginning of creating a new definition of man.
K
Kerwin Rae44:56
How important is a rite of passage from boyhood to manhood?
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John Kim45:11
My divorce was my rite of passage. It's imperative. In other cultures there are ceremonies. We lack that. We become adults on paper but inside we're still boys, posturing. We never mature. The rite of passage men need might be each other — having conversations like this instead of just about sports and money.
K
Kerwin Rae47:58
What have you learned in the first 5 months of being a dad?
J
John Kim48:02
The first 3 months are survival. I'm learning about patience, moments, reshuffling what's important. I don't want to rush; I want to stay present. It's hard.
K
Kerwin Rae48:37
It's been the best development program I've ever signed up for.
J
John Kim48:44
Oh yeah.
K
Kerwin Rae48:47
From a leadership and self-awareness perspective, I started hearing different voices in me as my son grew. It's been insightful.
J
John Kim49:06
Yeah.
K
Kerwin Rae49:06
One aspect is spanking. I remember seeing my son and visualizing doing what was done to me, and I broke down. It gave me compassion for my mom.
J
John Kim50:29
Yeah, being a single parent at that level is tough. It's rewarding to see those loops come up with mindfulness.
K
Kerwin Rae50:48
Right. Let's learn a lesson. I'm excited for you mate. Do you like being a dad?
J
John Kim50:55
I do. I think it's a new chapter. I wouldn't have been ready before 47. I'm a little less angry today, so I'm ready for it.
K
Kerwin Rae51:09
You will be tested. I think being a dad has made me a better person. I guess that's going to make you an even more incredible therapist.
J
John Kim51:21
Oh thank you.
K
Kerwin Rae51:22
John, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'd like to extend an invitation to catch up for a coffee or drink. You're an incredible human being.
J
John Kim51:31
Oh thank you. Chris, what's next from here? I know you've got this book and another one sold.
K
Kerwin Rae51:41
Just more of the same — creating dialogue, trying to live as solid as I can, being present. I don't know, but I'm excited to find out.
J
John Kim52:01
If people want to find out more about you and your book, where can they go?
K
Kerwin Rae52:04
You said that book's wide, it's everywhere. They can find me on Instagram at theangrytherapist. I'm pretty active there.
J
John Kim52:16
Okay, fantastic. Thank you for creating a bridge between business and wellness. I love what you're doing.
K
Kerwin Rae52:30
Mate, thank you. I appreciate you being on here. I think this is not going to be the last time we talk. Ladies and gentlemen, please thank John Kim.
J
John Kim52:44
Yeah, for sure.
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Narrator52:44
This episode was brought to you by Nail and Scale it, the world's leading fast growth program for business.
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Kerwin Rae52:51
There you have it, guys. Thanks for tuning in to Unstoppable with me, your host Kerwin Rae. Please do not forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel where you get to see all of these interviews in the flesh. Share this podcast with your friends and drop me a review on iTunes. I would love to hear what you guys think. And also, your comments help ensure we keep producing killer content just like this. If you'd like to stay up to date with all of my movements, upcoming podcasts, events, and much more, please jump onto the website kerwinrae.com and also check us out on all social media on the handle @kerwinrae. Thanks for joining us.