CEOInterviews.AIWATCH | Les Wexner, Fmr. Jeffrey Epstein Financier Testifies Before Congress

I

Interviewer1:18:04

I'm sure he did, but they weren't apartment buildings or post office. Could have been. Yeah. I'm, uh, do you remember?

L

Les Wexner1:18:16

No, I don't remember.

I

Interviewer1:18:18

Is it that you don't recall at all or that as far as you recall that statement is just not accurate?

L

Les Wexner1:18:25

Well, there's two parts of it. In reading this one, um, not accurate, and I fired Bob Morowski for bad behavior.

I

Interviewer1:18:34

But as to the substantive part, is it that you recall whether or not Epstein would present you with these types of investments?

L

Les Wexner1:18:41

I do not recall.

I

Interviewer1:18:42

Okay.

L

Les Wexner1:18:42

And the quote is from somebody that I fired.

I

Interviewer1:18:46

Okay. In addition to the family office role that you described, I'd like to ask about whether Epstein provided other services to you. We know that he provided some later clients with tax planning services. Did he ever do anything like that for you?

L

Les Wexner1:19:08

Must have. I have no specific recollection. I mean, somebody, my attorney, tax attorneys, I'm kind of a model about who did what.

I

Interviewer1:19:17

And so, is it fair to say again that you just don't recall either way?

L

Les Wexner1:19:22

Yeah, I don't recall at all.

I

Interviewer1:19:23

Okay. Separately from that, Mr. Epstein was a trustee for various trusts and charities of yours. I'd like to touch on both of those roles, starting with trusts. And so I will introduce minority exhibit B. That article is from ABC News and it's titled "Billionaire Businessman Leslie Wexner Refuses to Reveal Full Scope of Jeffrey Alleged Multi Theft," dated January 23rd, 20.

L

Les Wexner1:20:21

Oh, I'm looking at the date in the upper right. You're right. Under the byline is January 23rd. There you go.

I

Interviewer1:20:29

It's got two dates. I don't know which is correct.

L

Les Wexner1:20:31

All right.

I

Interviewer1:20:33

On page three of this article, and I'll let you take a moment, in the middle of that page, the article says that they identified nearly a dozen trusts connected to you.

L

Les Wexner1:20:48

Sure. It starts in the paragraph, Vuler and Boyd, the middle of the page.

I

Interviewer1:20:53

Okay.

L

Les Wexner1:20:54

Who are those?

I

Interviewer1:20:55

I think they're associated with ABC's investigative reporting team.

L

Les Wexner1:20:59

Thank you.

I

Interviewer1:20:59

And it tells us that they found nearly a dozen trusts with names like health and science interests, arts interests, and community interests connected to Wexner that listed Epstein as trustee and received large gifts of stock in Wexner's company. So I'll stop there. Do you have a recollection of the trusts that are described here?

L

Les Wexner1:21:22

None.

I

Interviewer1:21:23

None. And so do you have any recollection of Mr. Epstein's role with those trusts?

L

Les Wexner1:21:30

And okay.

I

Interviewer1:21:32

We will come back to that, but I'd like to touch for a moment on Epstein's role with the Wexner Foundation. And for that, I will introduce minority exhibit C. This document is titled "An Independent Review of Jeffrey Epstein's Involvement and Interactions with the Wexner Foundation" and the document is dated February 24th, 2020. I'm not going to ask you to read through this. It's a long document. I will point you to a specific part of it. But first, we understand this to be an independent review that was undertaken by a law firm at the request of the Wexner Foundation in the wake of Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019. Is that also your understanding?

L

Les Wexner1:22:41

I never knew of it. And I'm looking at this. I'm laughing because the address is 65 East Street and that was the address of my dad's first store when I was 13.

I

Interviewer1:22:52

Okay. Well, so is the report unfamiliar to you?

L

Les Wexner1:22:56

Yes. Completely.

I

Interviewer1:22:58

And I think page four of the report says that you were interviewed by the law firm for this report. Do you have any recollection of that?

L

Les Wexner1:23:07

Nope.

I

Interviewer1:23:09

None. Do you have any reason to doubt the report that you were in fact interviewed for the report?

L

Les Wexner1:23:19

No. I don't remember it, so I can't doubt it.

I

Interviewer1:23:24

Page nine of the report simply tells us that Epstein was elected as a trustee of the Wexner Foundation in 1992 and that he remained a trustee until September 2007.

L

Les Wexner1:23:45

Epstein would not have been the only trustee of the Wexner Foundation. Correct.

C

Counsel1:23:50

Objection as to hearsay as to the document. The question is fine. Can you repeat it?

I

Interviewer1:23:55

Sure. Did the Wexner Foundation have more than one trustee?

L

Les Wexner1:24:03

I'm sure it did. And I think there was a legal requirement to have three. I don't know that, I just think that.

I

Interviewer1:24:12

All right. On the next page, page 10, under header number two, there's a header that reads, "Epstein played no role in the operation of the foundation's fellowships or other programs." And the first sentence afterward says, "Based upon our review of foundation records and interviews with foundation leaders, we concluded that although a trustee, Epstein played no role in the management or administration of the foundation's operations for programs." Now on that topic, I'd like to introduce one more single page exhibit for you.

C

Counsel1:24:57

I'm just going to object to the statement as both a statement and your sake. But go ahead.

I

Interviewer1:25:02

I think as the majority general counsel noted, the objections have no legal grounding in this forum.

C

Counsel1:25:08

I'm making it for the record. It is a deposition. So, I'm making an objection. That's all.

I

Interviewer1:25:27

So, this is a single page.

L

Les Wexner1:25:29

Single page.

I

Interviewer1:25:29

And I'll give you a moment to look it over.

L

Les Wexner1:25:33

This is D.

I

Interviewer1:25:34

That's D. I'll describe it briefly. Give him a chance to read it. Thank you.

L

Les Wexner1:26:05

I think I just read it. I'd never seen this before, but go ahead.

I

Interviewer1:26:10

Great. It's an email chain from 2006 between, starting with Peg Uglund who we understand was the financial controller for your family office, a person named Darren who we understand to be Mr. Epstein's lawyer Darren Indk, and Jeffrey Epstein. And the chain appears to relate to a foundation grant and the question is whether the funds should come from the Wexner Foundation or some other related entity. Epstein appears to make the decision that if the recipient is a US charity, then the funds should come from the Wexner Foundation. There are, I'll just represent to you, there are other emails with similar themes. This email chain seems to clearly show Mr. Epstein acting as a final decision maker with respect to the disbursement of Wexner Foundation funds. And that obviously does not square with findings in the independent report. So having been interviewed for the report, my question is whether you had any understanding of Mr. Epstein playing this kind of role for the foundation.

L

Les Wexner1:27:15

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I

Interviewer1:27:18

No problem.

L

Les Wexner1:27:19

Are you asking me did Jeffrey decide that money should be given to Daven or do I write a personal check and a foundation check?

I

Interviewer1:27:34

It seems in this example, Mr. Epstein was deciding whether or not funds for this entity should or should not come from the Wexner Foundation.

C

Counsel1:27:43

Or from someplace else, not whether the donation should be made itself. I think that's the distinction he's trying to draw.

L

Les Wexner1:27:50

I have no recollection of where it came from. I regularly helped Aba Eban after he retired from government and I probably would have started with writing a personal check and then I would speculate how it was paid. I don't remember writing the check. But Eban was a very good friend and he had no money. He worked for the government of Israel and social security was his income was nothing. He was like living in public housing and my sense was that it wasn't fair. So I took care of him privately and his wife Susie until they both died.

I

Interviewer1:28:40

Did you have any knowledge that Mr. Epstein was acting as a final decision maker for whether or not to spend foundation funds?

L

Les Wexner1:28:48

Not at all. He would never have done that.

I

Interviewer1:28:50

He does appear to have done it here.

L

Les Wexner1:28:52

As a decision maker? No, absolutely not. I wouldn't have, didn't know it. Wouldn't have thought it.

I

Interviewer1:29:00

So this role would have occurred without your knowledge.

C

Counsel1:29:05

Objection.

L

Les Wexner1:29:12

It happened without my knowledge, but I did give money to my friend Aba Eban and his wife Susie.

I

Interviewer1:29:20

Okay. Thank you.

M

Moderator1:29:26

I think we've had an additional member of Congress join us. If that individual could identify themselves, please.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:29:33

Congressman Steve Lynch of the 8th Congressional District of Massachusetts.

M

Moderator1:29:43

Hello.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:29:47

I'd like to spend a little bit of time on the development of New Albany and I know my colleagues also touched on that topic. Could you just briefly describe for us your role in the development of New Albany? I know it was substantial. So, a brief overview.

L

Les Wexner1:30:06

It started out with me thinking I wanted to have a house in the country and it began with thinking I would buy an old barn and restore it and that'd be kind of a cool thing. As I worked through the project, my personal project, I asked my friend Jack Kesler, who was a professional in the real estate business and a developer, what land cost and what he thought of the idea. Then I got to thinking, do I really want to build a barn? And then I thought I would build a house. I kept telling Jack about what I was thinking. I bought like a 30 acre farm which is about a mile from here, which I thought was a good location. Over time I kept thinking about it and decided that wasn't a good location, this was a good location. In the conversations with Jack, he kept saying that these are good ideas, you're not overpaying for land, because this was something entirely new to me. One day I said, "Jack, if it's such a good idea, why don't you want to live here?" And he said, "I would, but my wife wouldn't move." Then one day he called up and said, "She thinks it's a good idea and we're going to sell our house and we'll build one near yours," which is the house that's a half mile away. I said, "If we're going to live here, do you think any of our friends might want to live out near us or acquaintances of his?" And he said, "Yeah, I think a lot of people would like that, the idea of having more land around and it's not that far from the airport, stuff like that." That's how the idea began. Then the next idea was how do you do it? Jack, as the only professional I knew in the real estate business other than shopping center developers, relied on his judgment about prices we were paying and acquisitions because I had a full-time job and I didn't know anything about this. Then I got to thinking one day, how do you plan it? I thought there's a lot of smart people at Harvard. So I made a cold call to the school of architecture, talked to the dean. I said, "I have this idea. You don't know me. Could you recommend some architects?" And he said, "I don't recommend architects to strangers and projects I don't know about." We talked a while more and he said, "If you'll buy a day of my time, if you're really serious, I'll come out and look at it because I don't know whether you're really serious about doing this." Then he gave me a list of architects and I didn't know any of them.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:32:54

You want me to keep going?

L

Les Wexner1:32:54

No, I think I've got it. It kind of just grew by topsy.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:33:01

I appreciate it. You also touched on this earlier, but what was the role of the New Albany Company in the development of the town of New Albany?

L

Les Wexner1:33:13

Well, it was just the name of the community. So, we called it the company because we were developing New Albany. If we had developed it in Pipsy, it'd be called the Pikipsy Company.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:33:24

What was, as far as you recall, Mr. Epstein's role in the development of New Albany?

L

Les Wexner1:33:31

None.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:33:33

What was his role with the New Albany Company?

L

Les Wexner1:33:41

As a fiduciary, reading my financial advisor to understand what was going on financially. You know, I thought I knew what was going on in our businesses, but we always had a CFO. So, I'd rely on the CFO to do what the CFO does because I did the marketing and the planning. But every business had a CFO, every business had overview. And I had a lot of complexity that I didn't realize at the time in my life. So it was either, you know, somebody had to do this.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:34:17

And there's paper. I don't want to throw paper at you if I don't have to. But I'll represent to you that yourself and Mr. Epstein were at least at one point co-presidents of the New Albany Company. And I'm happy to show that if that would be helpful. But I guess my question would be what would his role have been as co-president of the New Albany Company?

L

Les Wexner1:34:41

I think I don't remember it, but if he did it, it was just I don't know that I was the president, chairman of the board and then the CEO of the company, but I really just thought my job was to be the president. So the titles wouldn't have meant anything to me.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:35:02

It is right. I think what you tell me that the purpose of the New Albany Company was to assist in the development of New Albany. Is that right?

L

Les Wexner1:35:10

It was more than that. New Albany was just a farm village and I bought land here and developed it. Built the schools, built the fire station, built the police station, did all the community public facilities, platted streets. I can remember doing all the drawings. So I was the master developer of New Albany as a community.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:35:38

Did the New Albany Company have any purpose other than to assist in the development of New Albany?

L

Les Wexner1:35:44

No.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:35:45

Okay. Mr. Epstein was at one point president of the New Albany Company.

C

Counsel1:35:51

Objection. I think you said he was co-president.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:35:53

That's correct. Co-president. But as just so I understand it, your testimony is that Mr. Epstein played no role in the development of New Albany.

L

Les Wexner1:36:04

Absolutely no role.

C

Congressman Steve Lynch1:36:06

Okay.

I

Interviewer1:36:12

Like to talk about the limited company. Was Mr. Epstein ever employed by the limited company or any of its affiliated entities?

L

Les Wexner1:36:22

Never.

I

Interviewer1:36:23

Did Mr. Epstein ever have an informal role with the limited company or any of its affiliated entities?

L

Les Wexner1:36:30

Ever.

I

Interviewer1:36:31

Did he ever provide any services or advice to the company regardless of compensation?

L

Les Wexner1:36:37

Not that I recall.

I

Interviewer1:36:41

The Vanity Fair article we looked at earlier. I'll just relay the anecdote. You're welcome to look at it if you want to, but it retells a story that in 1996, the limited was preparing to spin off Abercrombie and Fitch on the New York Stock Exchange and Epstein reportedly flew to Columbus and told your executives that he would decide the share price. Do you have any recollection of that occurring?

L

Les Wexner1:37:08

Neil, nothing. Never.

I

Interviewer1:37:11

And the article says that Tom Hopkins, who I think was the vice chair of the limited at the time, told you at that point that Epstein was a con man. Do you have any recollection of that occurring?

L

Les Wexner1:37:22

No.

I

Interviewer1:37:23

Okay. I'll note there's been a lot of reporting that Mr. Epstein held himself out as affiliated with Victoria's Secret. We will come back to that topic a little bit later. Were there any instances at all that you can recall in which Epstein got involved in the limited business affairs?

L

Les Wexner1:37:43

No.

I

Interviewer1:37:48

In terms of Mr. Epstein's compensation, how was he compensated for his work for you?

L

Les Wexner1:37:59

I don't specifically recall, but I would guess fairly. I should be more clear.

I

Interviewer1:38:04

Was he compensated with salary or would it have been investment based or securities or fee based? Do you recall what was the way in which you would compensate him?

L

Les Wexner1:38:16

I don't recall.

I

Interviewer1:38:21

We discussed earlier I think that the breadth of his theft from you has been estimated by your councils to be in the hundreds of millions. Do you recall approximately what Mr. Epstein's total compensation would have been in his time with you?

L

Les Wexner1:38:39

I'm sure I would have known them, but I don't recall.

I

Interviewer1:38:51

I'd like to talk about Mr. Epstein's misappropriation or theft of your assets. And so I will introduce as exhibit E. So this is an excerpt from a memo that the Department of Justice wrote in December of 2019 and DOJ was assessing the extent to which people around Epstein might have been liable for their conduct.

L

Les Wexner1:39:38

Okay.

I

Interviewer1:39:38

The memo is long. I will represent I have given you only the excerpt that relates to you. There's nothing else in this document that relates to you directly. The section that I've given you on the second and third pages of the document that's 65 and 66 at the bottom. This is a summary of a proffer that your lawyer or lawyers gave to DOJ in July of 2019 with respect to Epstein's theft from you. In the second half of the second paragraph, I'll read it out loud. Your attorneys explained that over his years handling Wexner's finances, Epstein stole or otherwise misappropriated several hundred million dollars from Wexner. That misconduct together with the fees that Epstein paid himself for his services to Wexner appears to account for virtually all of Epstein's wealth. So, several hundred million is a large but not precise figure. To the best of your knowledge, how much exactly did Epstein steal?

L

Les Wexner1:40:55

I don't know. I don't think I'll ever know.

I

Interviewer1:41:00

One of I'd like to try to understand a little bit better how Epstein was able to steal or misappropriate that many funds. One way reportedly is that the trusts that we described earlier, which I know you said you have no recollection of, I just want to be thorough. The trusts that he was trustee of would receive gifts of limited stock and he would then sell that stock on the New York Stock Exchange and then use a portion of those proceeds for his own personal purposes. Do you have any knowledge or recollection of what I just described?

L

Les Wexner1:41:35

I'm effing surprised. I'm shocked. I didn't know this.

I

Interviewer1:41:44

Is it that you have not previously heard what I just described?

L

Les Wexner1:41:48

I never heard of it. Never saw this document.

I

Interviewer1:41:51

And it was publicly reported, I think, by ABC several years ago, but never on your radar.

L

Les Wexner1:41:58

Never.

I

Interviewer1:41:59

Okay. The report indicates that it was more than or around $1.3 billion of stock that Epstein moved around that way. Not that he kept all of that money for himself, but the total amount of stock sales was over a billion dollars. You have no knowledge or awareness of that.

L

Les Wexner1:42:20

I don't know the amounts. The only trust that I'm aware of is my wife set up trusts for our kids. Wherever she set them up in the amounts, I have no idea what's in them then or now.

I

Interviewer1:42:36

And then separately, it's been reported that around $20 million of stock and cash were contributed by two of your charitable foundations to one of Epstein's charities. Do you have any knowledge or awareness of that?

L

Les Wexner1:42:50

Effing shocked. I'm appalled. I never heard that.

I

Interviewer1:42:59

Did you know that?

L

Les Wexner1:43:03

No.

I

Interviewer1:43:07

Thank you, Mr. We have some additional questions and we have some questions from some of the members here. I'll start. I want to just go back to something. Earlier in the deposition, you said that you were never aware of Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell sexually abusing minors or adult women. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner1:43:29

I know Jeffrey was accused by an adult woman of abusing her. And that's the only thing that I knew until the hit the fan.

I

Interviewer1:43:43

So prior to it becoming public knowledge, you were never aware.

L

Les Wexner1:43:48

Absolutely not.

I

Interviewer1:43:50

Were you ever

C

Counsel1:43:51

Wait till he finishes asking the question.

I

Interviewer1:43:53

Sorry.

C

Counsel1:43:53

The court reporters will get mad at you if you don't.

I

Interviewer1:43:55

Okay. So, I think you said you were not. Were you ever aware of Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell sexually abusing men or boys?

L

Les Wexner1:44:05

No.

I

Interviewer1:44:06

Okay. How about trafficking men or boys?

L

Les Wexner1:44:11

No.

I

Interviewer1:44:13

Prior to it becoming public knowledge, were you ever aware of Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell arranging for a prominent person to have sex with another person?

L

Les Wexner1:44:22

Never.

I

Interviewer1:44:23

Okay.

C

Congresswoman1:44:25

Can I ask you, Mr. Wexner, were you ever with Jeffrey Epstein in the presence of women or men in bathing suits or underwear?

L

Les Wexner1:44:41

No. Never in the presence of women or men in bathing suits or anywhere with Mr. Epstein?

C

Congresswoman1:44:48

No.

You think he was at the fashion show? If he was at the fashion show, he'd seen women in underwear. But you're saying that if he was at a fashion show with you through the fashion business, it may have been the case. But could it have been the case that you were with Mr. Epstein prior to the fashion show in another space?

L

Les Wexner1:45:13

No, absolutely not.

C

Congresswoman1:45:15

So, did any women or men ever model clothes for you in the presence of Mr. Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:45:23

No.

C

Congresswoman1:45:23

So, not at a fashion show and not in a private home or residence.

L

Les Wexner1:45:29

As you know, being in the audience of the fashion show would have been the only possible time.

C

Congresswoman1:45:39

Are you aware of any individual that has given either a public statement or any information of anyone that has actually said that they believe you were with Mr. Epstein in the presence of women or men modeling clothes or underwear?

L

Les Wexner1:46:02

I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure I understand the question.

C

Congresswoman1:46:05

I'll move on. Did you yourself ever have a sexual encounter with any individual that was introduced to you by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?

L

Les Wexner1:46:19

No.

C

Congresswoman1:46:21

Did you personally have a sexual relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:46:26

No.

C

Congresswoman1:46:30

Are you aware that others have claimed that you had a sexual relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:46:38

No.

C

Congresswoman1:46:44

Did you ever suspect relationships with other men?

L

Les Wexner1:46:48

No.

C

Congresswoman1:46:51

But since it being public knowledge, you are now aware that Jeffrey had inappropriate sexual relationships with other women. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner1:47:02

Yes. What I know from the press, the stories. Yes.

C

Congresswoman1:47:06

Okay. Thank you.

I

Interviewer1:47:09

Thank you. I'd like to ask you about Epstein's properties and your visits to them. Of course, Epstein's New York and New Albany houses were originally yours. We discussed earlier and you also had a house in Palm Beach. Is that correct?

C

Counsel1:47:24

Objection. I think he testified that the house in New Albany was Mr. Kesler's.

I

Interviewer1:47:29

Okay.

C

Counsel1:47:33

I'm just trying to clarify.

I

Interviewer1:47:34

No, thank you. And the house in Palm Beach, was there a house that you had in Palm Beach?

L

Les Wexner1:47:40

I did have a house in Palm Beach.

I

Interviewer1:47:44

Okay. Did you ever visit Epstein's Palm Beach house?

L

Les Wexner1:47:54

He bought a house in Palm Beach and he wanted me to see it. I think he wanted me and Abigail to see it and we flew down on like a Sunday morning with friends of ours from Columbus. Looked at the house, congratulations, got back on the plane and came home. It was a pretty modest house.

I

Interviewer1:48:21

Did you ever witness Donald Trump at the house?

L

Les Wexner1:48:28

No.

I

Interviewer1:48:29

Do you recall any other prominent figures at the Palm Beach house?

L

Les Wexner1:48:32

No, just Jeffrey and my friends.

I

Interviewer1:48:38

Who were the other friends?

L

Les Wexner1:48:39

Jane, Steve Tuckerman, Dr. Stephen Tuckerman and his wife Judith. I'm sure they'll be delighted about that.

I

Interviewer1:48:51

No, they won't be.

L

Les Wexner1:48:53

Yes.

I

Interviewer1:48:54

Can you tell us about those visits?

L

Les Wexner1:48:56

Yes. Jeffrey invited us to see it and we were on a boat and we went to the island with our kids. So Abigail, myself, and I can't remember how many kids we had. Two or three or four, but at least two. Walked around for a while. Left. Probably an hour visit.

I

Interviewer1:49:21

Okay. An hour. So on that trip, do you recall seeing any prominent figures on the island?

L

Les Wexner1:49:28

No. It was a pretty crummy island.

I

Interviewer1:49:30

Okay. Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico or his house in Paris?

L

Les Wexner1:49:36

Just want to break those up for clarity.

I

Interviewer1:49:39

Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico?

L

Les Wexner1:49:41

It was the same kind of thing. He wanted Abigail and I to see his ranch. We flew down there and drove around for an hour or two, got back on the plane and came home. And I don't think he had a house.

I

Interviewer1:49:56

So you would fly just to go visit for one hour?

L

Les Wexner1:50:00

Yeah, I would fly to Europe for one hour on business trips. As crazy as it is, getting in the plane going places for me was like going to the mailbox. And he didn't have a house on the ranch and I never knew he had a house in Paris.

I

Interviewer1:50:20

And on the ranch in New Mexico that you spent an hour at, were there any prominent figures or anyone that you recall else being there?

L

Les Wexner1:50:27

No, as I recall it was just Abigail, myself and I think he'd rented a trailer. So it wasn't a house and that's all I know.

I

Interviewer1:50:38

Okay. And so to clarify, you didn't know he had a house in Paris or you did not ever go to the house in Paris?

L

Les Wexner1:50:43

I didn't know he had a house in Paris and therefore didn't go to the house in Paris.

I

Interviewer1:50:49

Okay. During any of your visits to any of these properties, did you ever see any girls or women that looked unusually young?

L

Les Wexner1:51:02

No.

I

Interviewer1:51:03

Did you ever hear rumors of any girls or women who looked unusually young visiting Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:51:10

No, never did.

I

Interviewer1:51:12

During any visits to Epstein's property, did you ever see photographs or other images of women or minors?

L

Les Wexner1:51:18

Not that I recall.

I

Interviewer1:51:21

Did you ever become aware of Epstein transporting women or minors using assets that you owned, whether that's a plane that you owned or a yacht that you owned?

L

Les Wexner1:51:30

Absolutely not. No.

I

Interviewer1:51:32

And did you ever hear of any rumors related to Epstein's personal life or his sexual activities?

L

Les Wexner1:51:41

No.

I

Interviewer1:51:41

Rumors that you may have heard in the grapevine.

L

Les Wexner1:51:50

That's kind of ambiguous. I'll answer you. I think you're asking an ambiguous question. I would go to the center of public leadership and David would say, "Jeffrey was up here. Your friend Jeffrey was up here and he was visiting Henry Rosovsky who was the dean of Harvard College or he was visiting Larry Summers and he always has an admin with him or a girl." He says he never travels by himself. And I think that's what I'm referring to. I don't think I'd get through a day without hearing a rumor about somebody. So, I imagine something you were close to, you probably heard.

I

Interviewer1:52:41

No, but it was more like he was traveling with his admin or his secretaries or his lady lawyer or his lady accountant. That's what I would hear. But I never heard rumors about Jeffrey traveling around with a girlfriend or something.

Yes. Thank you. I actually want to start in a little bit of a different place really quickly. Dr. Mark Landon, are you familiar with him?

L

Les Wexner1:53:27

Who?

I

Interviewer1:53:27

Dr. Mark Landon.

L

Les Wexner1:53:29

Yes.

I

Interviewer1:53:29

Okay. He was paid by Epstein on your behalf to consult on biomed investments. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner1:53:39

I just heard about that. I didn't know that till maybe last few days.

I

Interviewer1:53:46

Okay. So, with you knowing Dr. Mark Landon, are you aware as to whether or not Dr. Landon ever was paid to render medical services to any of the alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:54:03

No.

I

Interviewer1:54:05

What is your relationship with Dr. Landon?

L

Les Wexner1:54:12

Abigail had a complicated pregnancy and their general obstetrician I believe referred her to Martin Landon and he is an obstetrician and that's how I met him and he delivered our children.

I

Interviewer1:54:30

Okay.

L

Les Wexner1:54:30

And so my relationship with him is my wife's doctor.

I

Interviewer1:54:35

Did you ever introduce him to Jeffrey Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:54:39

No.

I

Interviewer1:54:44

All right. Did you ever spend time with Epstein and Donald Trump together?

L

Les Wexner1:54:50

Yes. I want to answer this question accurately. I would go to some of the Victoria's Secret fashion shows. It was very important to the brand. At some of the fashion shows, Jack was there and Trump was there and I remember because Trump would always introduce himself to me and I always thought it was kind of odd that he was at the fashion show because he had nothing to do with fashion. So the coincidence of them being together at an event, it could have been that, but I have no specific recollection. They never had a social drink or a cup of coffee together that would put them together.

I

Interviewer1:55:48

So just to clarify, because I want to make sure we're clear on the record, you're saying that you can recall instances potentially where Epstein and Trump were together and you were in their presence or just a random scenario where Epstein may be there and Trump may be there separately and then you would be?

L

Les Wexner1:56:05

It would be at random. That would be accurate if it happened, but I have no specific recollection.

I

Interviewer1:56:11

Okay. Were you introduced to Donald Trump by Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?

L

Les Wexner1:56:26

Nope.

I

Interviewer1:56:28

Has Donald Trump ever discussed Jeffrey Epstein with you?

L

Les Wexner1:56:35

Nope.

I

Interviewer1:56:38

Did Jeffrey Epstein ever discuss Donald Trump with you?

L

Les Wexner1:56:48

I would describe it. He would name drop. So he would say things like I know President Clinton or I know the Pope or I know God or I know you. It was that kind of name dropping but never, I can't remember a specific place, but Jeffrey dropped a lot of names.

I

Interviewer1:57:09

Okay. So to clarify, you believe he specifically dropped Donald Trump's name?

L

Les Wexner1:57:17

No, I'm saying it could have, but I don't remember.

I

Interviewer1:57:20

Okay. Did Epstein ever share information with you about Donald Trump's sexual activities?

L

Les Wexner1:57:28

No.

I

Interviewer1:57:30

Do you have a relationship with Donald Trump?

L

Les Wexner1:57:33

No.

I

Interviewer1:57:34

But you've met him before.

L

Les Wexner1:57:40

He would introduce himself to me at the fashion show a couple of times, but I wouldn't say hello, how are you? Like you say met, like we knew each other. We don't know each other. I'd be shocked if he remembered me.

I

Interviewer1:57:58

Okay. And I know that you specifically mentioned the island that you had been to, Epstein's island. Do you recall seeing any of those persons that Jeffrey Epstein would name drop while you were on his island?

L

Les Wexner1:58:14

No, nobody was there but Abigail, myself, Jeffrey, maybe a maintenance person cutting grass or something. I specifically recall. I know for sure I was there, Abigail was there, Jeffrey was there, and there wasn't anything abnormal about the appearance of the home on the island.

I

Interviewer1:58:39

And the reason that I asked, just to give you clarification of what I mean by abnormal, we've heard reports of people being thrown off when they walked into his home in New York because there was a massage table that was just sitting randomly in the middle of a room. Did you see anything like that when you visited any property that belonged to Jeffrey Epstein?

L

Les Wexner1:59:08

First to clarify, when we visited the island, there was like a pueblo building, maybe a one room and a bathroom or something, it was pretty crummy. And the island was crummy. There were no trees, there was no sand, there was no beach. It was just a kind of a peculiar thing. It was an island, but it was like a pile of rocks. I was kind of shocked that anybody would buy it for any purpose. As far as seeing things, I never was in the house. I never at his house in New York. The house in Florida, we were there after he bought it as I mentioned with a couple. So never saw a massage table or anything.

C

Congresswoman1:59:59

Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. Wexner, for your ability to answer a lot of questions. I think when you meet the survivors, it becomes incredibly personal, especially to women on this committee. So I appreciate it. But I'd like to introduce exhibit F. The article is titled "Jeffrey Epstein made regular payments to Ohio State head of gynecology, records show" which is from a local affiliate. It's dated February 10, 2026.

L

Les Wexner2:00:38

I know they're passing it out.

C

Congresswoman2:00:40

In the article, it explains that recent Department of Justice files indicate that in early 2000, Epstein was making quarterly payments to Dr. Michael Landon who is an OBGYN and the chair of the OBGYN department at Ohio State University. And you said that your wife received services from Dr. Landon, so you know him.

L

Les Wexner2:01:05

Yes.

C

Congresswoman2:01:05

Okay. Dr. Landon said the payments were consulting services he provided for New York Strategy Group which was some kind of firm associated with Epstein. Do you know why he was getting paid accordingly by Epstein?

L

Les Wexner2:01:19

Not a clue.

C

Congresswoman2:01:21

Do you know if there were gynecology services being offered to Epstein for victims or women?

L

Les Wexner2:01:28

No idea.

C

Congresswoman2:01:28

Because you're very associated with Ohio State University, right?

L

Les Wexner2:01:33

Yes.

C

Congresswoman2:01:34

You were the board chair. Okay. Were you aware that Jeffrey Epstein was paying him quarterly payments?

L

Les Wexner2:01:39

No.

C

Congresswoman2:01:40

You weren't?

L

Les Wexner2:01:40

No.

C

Congresswoman2:01:42

Okay. So, the article suggests that Epstein would bill you and your wife for at least one of these payments in 2005. Quote, "As we have in prior years," that's evidenced within the Department of Justice. Mr. Wexner, were you aware of these $25,000 quarterly payments coming from your accounts in 2005 and earlier?

L

Les Wexner2:02:04

Not till this moment.

C

Congresswoman2:02:06

You know, Mr. Wexner, I'm watching this all unfold and I just want you to know it's incredibly hard for people to understand. You don't know this. Maybe you don't know specific details. Maybe you don't know the dollar amounts, but Epstein was able to be empowered and enabled to hurt more people with your money. You understand that?

L

Les Wexner2:02:30

Oh, yeah. He's a crook.

C

Congresswoman2:02:32

I know. But you don't know the purpose of the payment and the money's coming from your accounts, it's your money, and you don't know why he's paying a doctor at Ohio State University.

L

Les Wexner2:02:44

Sadly, I don't.

C

Congresswoman2:02:45

Did you introduce him to Dr. Landon?

L

Les Wexner2:02:47

No.

C

Congresswoman2:02:48

How did he meet Dr. Landon?

L

Les Wexner2:02:50

I wouldn't know that he met him.

C

Congresswoman2:02:51

Because your wife received services from Dr. Michael Landon.

L

Les Wexner2:02:56

Yes. And so did my daughter.

C

Congresswoman2:02:58

Okay. Was it a routine practice for the New York Strategy Group's expenses to be paid by your accounts?

L

Les Wexner2:03:05

I never heard of it.

C

Congresswoman2:03:06

It's weird because it's your money going in to pay for this consulting services of another company.

L

Les Wexner2:03:14

It's weird to me, too.

C

Congresswoman2:03:15

So, we've never talked to you about these payments?

L

Les Wexner2:03:18

Never.

C

Congresswoman2:03:22

Something else that comes up because one of the claims that you're saying and you're not close friends and everything, you know, some of us have access to the redacted emails, some of us already, I think majority of us have gone down there. There is constant claims from survivors. Again, they're redacted from some of the communication directly with Maxwell or directly with other women that were helping that scene. And your name comes up synonymously sometimes with Epstein. Did you know that?

L

Les Wexner2:03:51

Well, I know it now.

C

Congresswoman2:03:52

Well, they also said that you were lovers. And I know it's nothing to be ashamed of. I just want you to know.

L

Les Wexner2:03:59

It's so great.

C

Congresswoman2:04:00

No, no, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

L

Les Wexner2:04:02

But it would explain, I think, the closeness that everyone consistently says. No one ever says you're not close. Is that like everyone says that you had a close relationship, that you and Epstein were close friends? Did you know that?

C

Counsel2:04:17

Objection.

C

Congresswoman2:04:21

I think Mr. Wexner, could you provide us with the name of every registered legal entity? And this is important because if you don't know now, then give us the information. Help us find the people that hurt the girls with your money. I'm asking and urging you to please. You started your business with your aunt Ida's money. You don't want your legacy to be not just Epstein. But doctor, what is the guy who also the, well, it doesn't matter. You were chair of Ohio State University. You were the board chair at the time that he hurt other women athletes on campus. This is to say to you, it's not only one person that hurt women, but now two that are affiliated with you directly. And I just want to urge you that if you don't know the answers to this, follow up with our committee. Give us the information so we can find out who hurt the women and who benefited from it. So could you provide us with the name of every registered legal entity of which you were the beneficial owner between the start of your relationship with Mr. Epstein and his death?

L

Les Wexner2:05:27

I would provide you with everything and anything I could.

C

Congresswoman2:05:36

Name where they were registered and registration and who are active at those entities.

L

Les Wexner2:05:41

Okay. Requesting in writing and directed to me.

C

Congresswoman2:05:43

And we will take it and respond.

And it's important because Mr. Wexner, so you know, the women, the survivors told us to follow the money consistently.

The other question and this will be my last. You claimed that you have been a victim and defrauded by Epstein. Correct.

L

Les Wexner2:06:04

Correct.

C

Congresswoman2:06:04

Then why didn't you file charges, go after him? He used money to hurt girls and probably young men. Why didn't you do anything to recoup your name, which has been synonymous with Epstein? Do you know your name comes up in the emails among victims who never met you, but your name was used consistently?

L

Les Wexner2:06:30

I'm not sure I understand what the question is.

C

Congresswoman2:06:33

The question is, why didn't you file any charges against Epstein if you conjured $200 million that we know of? Why didn't you go after him?

L

Les Wexner2:06:40

Well, at the time I didn't know.

C

Congresswoman2:06:44

And when you found out, why didn't you go after him?

L

Les Wexner2:06:53

You had...

C

Congresswoman2:06:54

My dad is probably laughing.

L

Les Wexner2:06:56

One of the things my dad told me is that you don't get in a pissing contest with an elephant. And running a public company for a long time, I'm not good at public relations or financial public relations. So I would answer questions to analysts. I'd call people up and I'd tell them the truth. And I learned in the course of my business career, whether it was my chief of staff, the company lawyer, personal lawyers, what should I do? And the advice is let us handle it. Don't you want to get ahead of this. So I'm happy that today is happening because I want to help and I would do everything I can to nail that son of a bitch. And I can't tell you how much I value my own ethics, my own moral compass, that it has a true north. And what I think happened now knowing about all the cons is that Jeffrey would tell somebody that they were me or this was somebody else. Like I don't recognize you, but you're a congresswoman, I think, because...

C

Congresswoman2:08:17

Yeah, I never met you, but you're all over the emails.

L

Les Wexner2:08:19

Yeah, but I presume you're a congresswoman. I presume you're not a man in women's clothing, but I don't know what I didn't know. And I understand this is, you know, now we can do something about it.

C

Congresswoman2:08:34

Oh, yeah.

So, Wexner claims you claimed that you cut ties with Epstein in 2007, right? Okay. But she emailed Epstein, quote, "Abigail told me the response. All I can say is I feel sorry. You violated your own number one rule. Always be careful." End quote. That was an email in 2008, Mr. Wexner.

L

Les Wexner2:08:59

I know. I'm letting you know that the public knows.

C

Congresswoman2:09:01

Probably. I was giving him the finger.

Okay, that's it. Thank you.

I

Interviewer2:09:08

So, just real quick briefly, did the FBI or Department of Justice ever directly speak to you about Epstein or Maxwell?

L

Les Wexner2:09:16

Has the FBI or DOJ ever directly contacted you or spoken to you about my knowledge?

I

Interviewer2:09:21

Never.

L

Les Wexner2:09:22

Never.

I

Interviewer2:09:23

And then finally, would you consider Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein friends or friendly? Would you classify them that way in the information that you have?

L

Les Wexner2:09:36

I think it's really two questions. Would I think they were friends? No. Jeffrey Epstein held him out as a friend.

I

Interviewer2:09:47

Great. Thank you. We can go off the record.

M

Moderator2:09:56

We'll get back on the record.

I

Interviewer2:09:58

What's that?

M

Moderator2:09:59

That is a microphone. Mr. Wexner, it is 1:17 in the afternoon. Our minority colleagues touched on a lot of different subject areas and I just want to go back through and parse out some things. First though, I want to enter as exhibit five the letter from Leslie.

I

Interviewer2:10:46

This document is titled "Letter from Les Wexner General News Directed to the Wexner Foundation Community." I will stipulate to you there's no date on here. The date it was posted on the website was August 8th, 2019. Do you have any reason to dispute that? In this letter that you wrote in August of 2019, you mentioned that Mr. Epstein had various well-known respected individuals as financial clients and in his inner circle. My question to you is could you elaborate a little bit to who some of those financial clients were that you were aware of?

L

Les Wexner2:11:27

Well, it says he represented that he had that. He wouldn't know if he did or not.

I

Interviewer2:11:34

Were you aware of any of Mr. Epstein's other clients?

L

Les Wexner2:11:41

Let me think. Well, specifically I talked to Ellie D. Rothschild and so I mentioned that earlier. So he represented their whole family. There have been a whole bunch of people, many most of whom I never would have met but I knew LA. I never met people, but there were people that called me that either insinuated or said they knew Jeffrey through a financial relationship. And so I mean they could have been actors but at the time, a guy calls me up. I'll give you an example just because I want you to understand this because it's so confusing to me. He would say like I'm providing financial advice to the founders of Google. I'm providing financial advice to Jeff Bezos. I'm providing financial advice for the chief technologist at Google. And I wow, I'm in good company because these are really smart guys with a lot of money. And you have to put yourself in the mindset. If my attorney said he was qualified to argue in front of the Supreme Court, I'd believe him. I didn't say to call the Supreme Court and say tell me is he really an attorney or did he do this. And I get a phone call from someone like a guy named Marwal, he was the who said he was the chief technology of Google. You know, Jeffrey has been helping me, he's my financial advisor. I told Jeffrey I was building a boat, he told me to call you. I never built a boat because I hadn't, but if I wanted to build a boat I would go to Feadship because reputationally they're the best boat builder. Then, you know, it was and that's the part that is so embarrassing is what economy was. And if you, I don't know, you believe your priest or your minister or your rabbi is what they are, you believe them. And people would, it was mostly phone calls of people would say or if you'd bump into somebody, yeah, Jeffrey's my advisor or Jeffrey's talked to me about stuff or Jeffrey helped me with financial things. I can't remember specifically, but as I look back at it, it was part of the con. So, I never met Marwal.

I

Interviewer2:14:37

I have one second because I think it will move this thing along a little faster.

C

Counsel2:14:42

Tell.

I

Interviewer2:14:43

Stop.

C

Counsel2:14:44

Okay.

I

Interviewer2:14:45

Just answer the question.

Mr. Wexner, you mentioned some of these phone calls from other individuals posting about their ties with Mr. Epstein. Do you have a recollection of when most of these would have occurred, these phone calls?

L

Les Wexner2:15:03

Pretty regularly, but I specifically can't remember any of them.

I

Interviewer2:15:08

Understood. In majority exhibit three, your statement from this morning, your written statement from this morning, you mentioned on the second page, I believe it is, second paragraph, approximately middle of the paragraph, that you consulted Ace Greenberg and Jimmy Kaine of Bear Stearns, Epstein's former employer. Did I read that correctly?

L

Les Wexner2:15:42

Correct.

I

Interviewer2:15:43

What did you reach out to Mr. Greenberg and Mr. Kaine about at Bear Stearns with regard to Mr. Epstein?

L

Les Wexner2:15:50

Checking references.

I

Interviewer2:15:53

And as far as checking those references, did anything come up surprising to you about Mr. Epstein's background?

L

Les Wexner2:16:01

All positive.

I

Interviewer2:16:03

And you also mentioned, let me take a step back. Bear Stearns has mentioned and previously reported that Mr. Epstein didn't have a degree or some of the proper qualifications for his job there. Did you have any reason to doubt the qualifications of Mr. Epstein when it related to being your financial adviser?

L

Les Wexner2:16:31

I don't recall ever questioning that. I didn't remember asking the question.

I

Interviewer2:16:39

And so going off of that, other than making some phone calls to some individuals, did you ever formally check into Mr. Epstein's past?

L

Les Wexner2:16:50

Not beyond talking to the people I mentioned.

I

Interviewer2:16:58

Understood. You also state, going, sorry to jump back and forth, the letter from last exhibit 5, that same paragraph, the third one in the middle there, the last sentence after the comma says, "I believed I could trust him." What about him being Mr. Epstein did you think you could trust him?

L

Les Wexner2:17:29

Well, I put him in a position of trust. He was a fiduciary that was to act in my interest and I trusted that he could do that.

I

Interviewer2:17:46

And your trust in him came before he actually handled any of your finances. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner2:17:53

Correct. Initially he was like a friend of a friend who I perceived of as being skilled to review Harold's work.

I

Interviewer2:18:02

Understood. Moving along a little bit. You may have touched on this with our minority colleagues. What was the rough portfolio that Mr. Epstein was handling for you?

L

Les Wexner2:18:17

Probably all my personal finance houses, equipment, cars, just inventorying of stuff. All the financial things that someone would handle outside of their business. I have someone do because it was so much stuff.

I

Interviewer2:18:42

And your previous financial adviser before Mr. Epstein, did that individual have power of attorney?

L

Les Wexner2:18:53

I don't specifically remember it, but I think he did.

I

Interviewer2:18:58

And Mr. Epstein did have power of attorney over your financial matters.

L

Les Wexner2:19:02

Yeah, as did Dennis.

I

Interviewer2:19:04

And why did this become your practice to give them power of attorney?

L

Les Wexner2:19:13

I was so busy traveling so much. The papers had to be signed, tax returns filed, people had to act on my behalf, so many things to sign that I needed to have somebody to do that.

I

Interviewer2:19:30

Understood. How involved were you with Mr. Epstein's determinations over your finances? Did you have any involvement?

L

Les Wexner2:19:44

What determinations mean?

I

Interviewer2:19:45

More of like, did you have any oversight of what Mr. Epstein was doing as your financial adviser?

L

Les Wexner2:19:53

Well, I'm sure he did at the time. Yeah.

I

Interviewer2:19:56

And did he bring every decision to you, some decisions to you? What did that look like?

L

Les Wexner2:20:02

I don't know. I mean, I was running a 20 division business, had community responsibilities. So, if you ask me what the president of the university brought to me or what the head of the foundation, I can't remember, but I was involved in everything except just a lot of stuff.

I

Interviewer2:20:25

So, is it a fair characterization of your testimony that Mr. Epstein had pretty wide latitude over your financial affairs?

L

Les Wexner2:20:40

Yes, that's fair. Pretty wide.

I

Interviewer2:20:46

And Mr. Epstein had access to your personal bank accounts. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner2:20:50

I don't recall.

I

Interviewer2:20:52

Do you recall if he had access to any of your business bank accounts?

L

Les Wexner2:20:55

I'm sure he wouldn't.

I

Interviewer2:20:59

Did Mr. Epstein ever ask you to lend him money for any reason?

L

Les Wexner2:21:03

No.

I

Interviewer2:21:05

Did Mr. Epstein ever make any attempt to blackmail you for any reason?

L

Les Wexner2:21:09

No.

I

Interviewer2:21:17

Did Mr. Epstein's control over your personal finances extend to any decisions that affected the rest of your family members?

L

Les Wexner2:21:36

That's just like, I want to say no, but I know that he was involved with the Children's Trust because I learned that today or what he did that I didn't know that would have been personal. I don't know what I don't know. But to my knowledge, he wouldn't have in a civilian way been involved.

I

Interviewer2:21:57

And just to clarify your testimony earlier about setting up trusts for your children, was Mr. Epstein who helped set up the trusts for your children?

L

Les Wexner2:22:12

I don't recall.

I

Interviewer2:22:15

Did Mr. Epstein handle any other financial decisions in regard to your children?

L

Les Wexner2:22:21

Not that I'm aware of.

I

Interviewer2:22:27

And I'm sorry, going to switch gears a little bit here about your foundation. Why ultimately did Mr. Epstein become a trustee of your foundation?

L

Les Wexner2:22:40

Just convenience for signing documents, financial oversight, not for the foundation, nothing that would be the operation of the foundation, its purpose or review of people. It was just part of the complexity of my personal life.

I

Interviewer2:23:05

And forgive my ignorance, you have usually board members of foundations and separately trustee members. Is that an accurate statement?

L

Les Wexner2:23:21

I wish I think we just had trustees.

I

Interviewer2:23:25

Okay.

And just to clarify, Mr. Epstein, did he receive any compensation for his role on the board of the Wexner Foundation?

L

Les Wexner2:23:42

Not to my knowledge.

I

Interviewer2:23:49

Do you recall who Mr. Epstein replaced on the board or how that board seat became available to him?

L

Les Wexner2:23:57

No.

I

Interviewer2:24:00

Did your mother used to be a member of the foundation board?

L

Les Wexner2:24:05

I think so.

I

Interviewer2:24:06

And was she forced to step down from the board due to circumstances?

L

Les Wexner2:24:16

No. She left her board position willingly.

I

Interviewer2:24:22

Yes.

Can you describe in a little bit more detail the circumstances for why your mother left the board of the foundation?

L

Les Wexner2:24:48

I don't recall. Probably age.

Hello. This is Andrew. I don't think he said this is Andrew Duke or this is Andrew Windsor or whatever he called himself. And I said, "Hello." And he said, "You know, I helped my mother buy her airplane and I know that you buy and sell airplanes, so if I could be of service with you in airplane transactions, I could help." And I said, "No, thank you. We're covered and have a nice day." And hung up and just kind of laughed my ass off that the Duke of York called me about...

I

Interviewer3:43:30

So he cold called you to sell you an airplane or to help you buy an airplane?

L

Les Wexner3:43:35

It was airplane advice because he helped us... Oh, no, no, no. It had nothing to do with anything going on. It was like, "I know that you buy and sell airplanes in your business. I know you buy an airplane personally and I know you buy and sell airplanes and when you do, if you need an advisor, I'm available." It's like, "No, thank you. I'm covered."

I

Interviewer3:43:57

So he offered to advise you on purchasing... Did he? He offered to advise you. I'm just trying to understand why the Prince of York would be calling you about...

L

Les Wexner3:44:09

Yeah, me too. It was like out of the blue. I mean, you could have called me up that day and said you were the Prince of York and you want to advise me on my lunch or something. I was like, "What the hell is this?" If you would have recognized the difference in accents.

I

Interviewer3:44:25

Yeah, maybe. And with respect to those other figures who I mentioned, did you ever see or become aware of any prominent academic figures or this so-called Sultan of Dubai or Howard Lutnick or any other notable person being introduced to young women by either Epstein or Maxwell?

L

Les Wexner3:45:02

Well, I've never met Howard Lutnick. Didn't know his name until he became popular or in the news.

I

Interviewer3:45:11

Yeah, his name's extensively in the back.

L

Les Wexner3:45:15

But I just never heard his name, didn't know him. Some of the people that were on that list, I knew their names and some of them introduced themselves to me.

I

Interviewer3:45:28

But that wasn't his question.

L

Les Wexner3:45:29

I understand... I thought you asked if I knew any other of those prominent individuals. Were you aware that either Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell was facilitating introductions or contact between those individuals and young women?

No. No, absolutely not.

I

Interviewer3:45:54

And you yourself, sir, never had physical contact with any of these young survivors or victims, as they are alternatively called? Okay. I believe that's all I have. Thank you.

Just two more, then we'll give you a break. First, with respect to the birthday note that we looked at earlier for Mr. Epstein's birthday. Just making sure we have your testimony. It's that you signed the note "your friend," but Mr. Epstein was not ever actually your friend from your point of view. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner3:46:37

Correct.

I

Interviewer3:46:39

And you do not have any understanding of why you would sign that card "your friend"?

L

Les Wexner3:46:50

I think I was sending a birthday note to somebody. I say "your friend" or something. I wouldn't just sign my name. It would be like... I don't know. It's not a salutation. It's the end of a letter or something. "Yours truly," "Best," something like that.

I

Interviewer3:47:09

Do you recall ever drawing a pair of women's breasts on any correspondence with any other business associate of yours?

L

Les Wexner3:47:18

No.

I

Interviewer3:47:20

We can go off the record.

We will go on the record. It's 3:12 p.m. Mr. Wexner, I am going to ask you to bear with me for a second. I have a list of names. I will ask you one question that applies to the entirety of the list and you will just answer yes or no. And if you answer yes to one of the names, we will come back to further explore that name. Does that make sense?

L

Les Wexner3:48:00

You think so? Let's try it. See how it works.

I

Interviewer3:48:04

So, the question is, have you ever had a conversation with any of the following people about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes, his criminal investigations, or in regard to sexual activity of any kind?

L

Les Wexner3:48:16

Okay. So, not have you ever had a conversation with them, but have you had a conversation with them about those topics? Do you want to repeat it so that we are solid here?

I

Interviewer3:48:26

Sure. Have you ever had a conversation with any of the following people about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes, his criminal investigations, or in regard to sexual activity of any kind? The first name is Ghislaine Maxwell.

L

Les Wexner3:48:43

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:48:45

Richard Kahn.

L

Les Wexner3:48:47

No.

I

Interviewer3:48:49

Darren Indyke.

L

Les Wexner3:48:50

No.

I

Interviewer3:48:52

Sarah Kellen.

L

Les Wexner3:48:54

No.

I

Interviewer3:48:56

Leslie Groff.

L

Les Wexner3:48:58

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:00

Nadia Marcinkova.

L

Les Wexner3:49:02

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:04

Kathy Rumler.

L

Les Wexner3:49:05

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:08

Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew.

L

Les Wexner3:49:12

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:14

Peter Mandelson, former UK ambassador to the United States.

L

Les Wexner3:49:20

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:22

Steven Hoffenberg.

L

Les Wexner3:49:24

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:27

Jean-Luc Brunel.

L

Les Wexner3:49:29

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:49:32

Jes Staley.

L

Les Wexner3:49:33

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:49:35

Paul Morris.

L

Les Wexner3:49:37

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:49:39

Steven Cutler.

L

Les Wexner3:49:40

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:49:42

Mary Casey.

L

Les Wexner3:49:44

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:49:46

Justin Nelson.

L

Les Wexner3:49:48

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:50

Leon Black.

L

Les Wexner3:49:54

No.

I

Interviewer3:49:57

Glenn Dubin.

L

Les Wexner3:50:03

Kind of put those as question marks because I think I'll tell you the answer later because I want to be completely understood.

I

Interviewer3:50:13

Bill Gates.

L

Les Wexner3:50:17

No.

I

Interviewer3:50:19

Any person elected or appointed to any federal office?

L

Les Wexner3:50:21

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:50:23

Any foreign government officials?

L

Les Wexner3:50:25

Nope.

I

Interviewer3:50:27

So you said you wanted to clarify on Glenn Dubin and Eva Anderson Dubin.

L

Les Wexner3:50:35

Yeah, I know both of them. I met Eva when I thought she and Jeffrey were engaged and going to get married. And I met Glenn at Harvard, I don't know, 10 or maybe 20 years ago, because he was acquainted with someone there and I was at David Gergen's funeral or something like that. And I saw them and I hadn't seen them in 10 or 15 years and they sat alone and said something, "Isn't this a shame? What happened to Jeffrey?" And I said, "Yeah, it's a shame." Something like that. It was that vague. But most of the names that you mentioned, I've never heard before. I don't know those people.

I

Interviewer3:51:33

With Glenn Dubin, you said it was 10 to 20 years ago at Harvard. When you mentioned Eva Anderson Dubin, you said you thought she was engaged to Jeffrey Epstein. Do you know approximately when that was?

L

Les Wexner3:51:51

About the time I got engaged to Abigail. So about '92.

I

Interviewer3:51:54

Okay.

L

Les Wexner3:51:56

But I haven't seen either of them until David Gergen's funeral, maybe a decade. Hadn't talked to, never socialized with him. Can we just clarify something? Because I think you previously testified that when you met Miss Maxwell, it was around the time of your engagement to Abigail, right? Didn't I just say that?

I

Interviewer3:52:14

No, you were talking about Eva Anderson.

L

Les Wexner3:52:19

Oh, I'm sorry. I met Eva about the time I got... How could that be? I must have met Eva when I met Jeffrey and then met Glenn when I got engaged.

I

Interviewer3:52:40

So Eva would have been early to mid '80s.

L

Les Wexner3:52:44

Yeah, whenever it was. And I think I only met her once, with them once.

I

Interviewer3:52:59

So you never, just to clarify one more name on here, you never spoke with Ghislaine Maxwell about Mr. Epstein or his criminal investigations of any kind?

L

Les Wexner3:53:11

Never.

I

Interviewer3:53:20

It had come out a few years ago now that Ohio State University did a review of their donations and they identified a little over $300,000 in donations directly from Mr. Epstein and one of his foundations. They also reported a gift of approximately $2.5 million from the COQ Foundation, which is another entity of Mr. Epstein's. Did you help facilitate any donations from Jeffrey Epstein to Ohio State University?

L

Les Wexner3:53:58

Never.

I

Interviewer3:54:04

Did you personally ask Mr. Epstein to donate to Ohio State University?

L

Les Wexner3:54:07

Never.

I

Interviewer3:54:12

Did you ever speak to any Ohio State University Board of Trustees members regarding Mr. Epstein or his donations to the university?

L

Les Wexner3:54:20

Never.

I

Interviewer3:54:37

We discussed earlier in this deposition around the time frame of 2019 if you had any involvement with law enforcement as they investigated Mr. Epstein for his crimes he was ultimately charged with in New York. Just to clarify, did you speak to any law enforcement agency of any kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein's investigation in New York in 2019?

L

Les Wexner3:55:11

Never. Didn't. Now, I don't remember ever talking to any law enforcement agency.

I

Interviewer3:55:18

Did you ever provide any documentation to any law enforcement agency of any kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein and his investigation in New York in 2019?

L

Les Wexner3:55:28

Not to my knowledge.

I

Interviewer3:55:49

And just to be clear, you never formally interviewed with anyone from the FBI or Department of Justice about Jeffrey Epstein or his criminal investigation in 2019?

L

Les Wexner3:55:59

Never.

I

Interviewer3:56:04

Did Mr. Epstein ever contact you or attempt to contact you after his arrest in 2019?

L

Les Wexner3:56:12

I don't think so. He was dead.

I

Interviewer3:56:15

Well, before he died.

L

Les Wexner3:56:17

No, I mean dead to me.

I

Interviewer3:56:26

Did anyone affiliated with Mr. Epstein ever reach out to you in 2019 regarding his investigation in New York?

L

Les Wexner3:56:33

Never. No.

I

Interviewer3:56:53

How did you first learn of Jeffrey Epstein's death in the MCC in New York City?

L

Les Wexner3:57:04

Probably watching CNN.

I

Interviewer3:57:07

No one directly contacted you about his death?

L

Les Wexner3:57:10

No one ever contacted me about Jeffrey's death.

I

Interviewer3:57:15

Did you ever have any reason to believe that Mr. Epstein's life was in any sort of danger?

L

Les Wexner3:57:22

No.

I

Interviewer3:57:25

You mentioned in what is Majority Exhibit 3, your statement from this morning. On page three, in the second to last paragraph, last sentence: "While others visited Epstein in jail and associated with him after his release, I did not." Are you aware of who did in fact visit Mr. Epstein in jail during that time?

L

Les Wexner3:58:04

David Gergen told me he did after he did.

I

Interviewer3:58:09

And can you remind us who David Gergen is?

L

Les Wexner3:58:13

David Gergen was a professor of practice at the Kennedy School. He was an adviser for presidents of the United States, a TV personality.

I

Interviewer3:58:24

And did Mr. Gergen tell you anything about his visit to Mr. Epstein while he was incarcerated?

L

Les Wexner3:58:34

No, he just told me that he and his wife visited Jeffrey and asked me if I did and I said, "No, I wouldn't visit that son of a bitch." Asked him why he did.

I

Interviewer3:58:56

Did Mr. Gergen inform you as to why he went to visit Mr. Epstein while he was incarcerated?

L

Les Wexner3:59:03

Yeah, surprisingly. He said, "You know, sometimes people that you're acquainted with get into trouble and you should be kind or nice to them." Something that vague, which seemed completely out of character for Gergen.

I

Interviewer3:59:18

What was your response to Mr. Gergen when he posed that to you?

L

Les Wexner3:59:25

I think I said, "I'm surprised at you, David."

I

Interviewer3:59:33

I'm going to switch gears a little bit here. You mentioned that David Gergen was a friend of yours. How do you characterize that Mr. Gergen was a friend? What made him a friend to you?

L

Les Wexner4:00:04

We probably met when he went to the Kennedy School from his job at the White House. So he was like a professor of practice in the Center of Public Leadership and then he became the director of the Center of Public Leadership and that was one of my main interests, public leadership. And we became friends from very different backgrounds. I didn't have much of an education, Yale, Harvard, you know, working in the White House. And we became very close friends. And his wife reminded me after his funeral that we would talk every Sunday. I didn't even realize that we did that. We'd share books, talk about what was going on in the world, and it was very much a part of my life. He was a wonderful person.

I

Interviewer4:01:12

So he was someone you would communicate with frequently.

L

Les Wexner4:01:16

Well, if I was bitching about the government, I'd call David, or we'd be talking about what was going on in the CPL, fundraising for CPL, interviewing professors for CPL, raising money for fellowships. It was pretty much focused on government and public interest things because that's what we had in common. I wasn't... he was a lawyer and I sold apparel.

I

Interviewer4:01:48

Would you say that you talked to Mr. Gergen more frequently than you talked to Mr. Epstein?

L

Les Wexner4:01:55

Oh, yes.

I

Interviewer3:56:04

Of course, prior to you and Mr. Epstein terminating your...

L

Les Wexner4:02:02

Yeah, I talked to him more regularly. I wouldn't have remembered the repetition or the curiosity. Anne Gergen told me after David's death how much he looked forward to our Sunday calls. I don't know, as you get older sometimes you look back and somebody touches your life and you don't realize you're calling him every Sunday because I was just, you know, like you brush your teeth every Sunday. I'd call him or he'd call me.

I

Interviewer4:02:33

Apologies. Going to switch gears quite a bit here. We were discussing earlier that the property that Mr. Epstein had owned that was, believe you characterized as adjacent to your property, formerly Jack Kessler's house. When at any point did people need to use your gates or go through your property to access that house?

L

Les Wexner4:03:08

No. The properties weren't connected. There was kind of a woods between them and fields. There was no driveway. They were separate.

I

Interviewer4:03:21

It would be a struggle to walk between the two on foot.

L

Les Wexner4:03:26

Understood.

I

Interviewer4:03:28

Speaking about your boat design and manufacturer and boat launch has been mentioned a couple times here today. Did Mr. Epstein ever travel with you or board your yacht at any point?

L

Les Wexner4:03:48

Not that I recall.

I

Interviewer4:03:50

Did Miss Maxwell ever travel with you on that boat at any point?

L

Les Wexner4:03:55

Absolutely not.

I

Interviewer4:03:58

Were there any other boat trips that you and Mr. Epstein would have taken together at any point?

L

Les Wexner4:04:05

None. I don't think I ever went anywhere on that boat without my wife and family.

I

Interviewer4:04:16

Understood. Do you use any aliases or nicknames when you communicate with people you're associated with?

L

Les Wexner4:04:26

No, Les. Sometimes LHW, that's it.

I

Interviewer4:04:35

Are you aware of Mr. Epstein having any aliases or nicknames that he would commonly use?

L

Les Wexner4:04:42

No.

I

Interviewer4:04:44

Are you aware of Miss Maxwell having any aliases or nicknames that she would commonly use?

L

Les Wexner4:04:48

No.

I

Interviewer4:04:54

When speaking about your boat, you seemed to be very certain that Miss Maxwell had never taken any type of boat trip with you. Is there a reason why you were more sure about her not attending any boat trips with you?

L

Les Wexner4:05:13

Because it couldn't be... I'm not sure that I know that Jeffrey didn't take any boat trips with me. That's for sure. And so I might not have perfect recall, but I'm positive he never took any boat trips. So I'm positive that she never took any boat trips because I only saw her a couple times in my life.

I

Interviewer4:05:34

Understood. Are you aware of... back up first. Mr. Epstein did a lot of foreign travel. Would you say that's an accurate statement?

L

Les Wexner4:05:55

That's a kind of... I want to answer because I don't want you to be tricking me. I thought he traveled a lot when I thought he traveled a lot. Once I knew he was abroad, I don't believe he traveled at all. He told me he was in Switzerland. He told me he was anywhere in the world and I believed him. That son of a bitch could have been in bed. I didn't know where he was calling from.

I

Interviewer4:06:20

But to the best of your knowledge, he would inform you that he was traveling all over the world.

L

Les Wexner4:06:25

Oh yeah. "Saudi Arabia working for the king. I'm in Switzerland talking to banks and I'm really busy and I'm tired" and he'd hang up. So he would reach out to me erratically and sometimes frequently. And I never believed that he didn't... I didn't suspect. If my wife told me she was in Chicago, I would believe it. If my lawyer said he was in Columbus, I would believe it. If I call Matt up, I don't ask my lawyer from Columbus. I go, "Are you in Columbus or are you in bed or wherever the hell you are?" And I think that was part of Jeffrey's con. And it just grinds the hell out of me that he was so busy, but I don't believe any of it now. I think it was complete and it was part of the con.

I

Interviewer4:07:18

Understood. Is it fair to say that Mr. Epstein would flaunt that he had foreign contacts, whether it be foreign dignitaries or contacts in foreign governments, something to that effect?

L

Les Wexner4:07:40

Do you mean flaunt?

I

Interviewer4:07:41

Flaunt. Yes. Sorry. Long day.

L

Les Wexner4:07:43

It's been a long day.

I

Interviewer4:07:45

Yes.

Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Epstein holding citizenships in any other countries other than the United States of America?

L

Les Wexner4:07:58

No.

I

Interviewer4:07:59

Have you ever seen Mr. Epstein possess any other foreign country's passport?

L

Les Wexner4:08:06

No.

I

Interviewer4:08:12

Or any passport, including an American one.

If Mr. Epstein was talking about connections he had with foreign nations or entities, is there anyone he would most commonly refer to when speaking to you?

L

Les Wexner4:08:44

He over the period of time mentioned a lot of them and somebody would repeat with some periodicity. Some he would mention once, but it's kind of a muddle. But it was a pretty regular flow.

I

Interviewer4:09:03

Was there anyone he mentioned more often than others?

L

Les Wexner4:09:10

More often... maybe several times he mentioned the Queen of England.

I

Interviewer4:09:25

The Queen of England.

L

Les Wexner4:09:26

Yeah. The one that died.

I

Interviewer4:09:34

Did you ever get the impression that Mr. Epstein was trying to get close with people of power, influence, wealth to better shield himself from any type of scrutiny?

L

Les Wexner4:09:57

No. It seemed to me that that was the milieu that he operated in. And so it made sense to me in terms of advice he was giving me that he was dealing with the most sophisticated people and they were his clients.

I

Interviewer4:10:18

And so, based off that response, would it be fair to say that you would believe that could be part of his con, touting all these connections he had all around the world?

L

Les Wexner4:10:37

As I look back at today, I'm positive it was his con. I mean, as positive as I could know. I mean, the founders of Google, the president of the United States, the king of Saudi Arabia, go on and on. It was almost every month, "I'm off to do this with that" or "I'm going here and there." And he was in a trust position. And foolishly, I never questioned it. It was just that it wasn't just that he was bullshitting me. These weren't really his clients.

I

Interviewer4:11:10

And is it your testimony today that if Jeffrey Epstein was enriched by his connection to you, that all of that enrichment was gained through theft, deceit, and or without your knowledge?

L

Les Wexner4:11:35

I'm not sure I understand the question. Do I know where Jeffrey got his money? I know he stole money from us. I believed he had a substantial income from these make-believe clients that afforded him the lifestyle that he had. That made sense to me.

I

Interviewer4:11:58

And you got engaged in 1992. Do I have that correct?

L

Les Wexner4:12:10

September 8th, 1992.

I

Interviewer4:12:12

And you were married then in the following year, 1993.

L

Les Wexner4:12:16

One, two, three. That's how I remember that one.

I

Interviewer4:12:18

And at any point after your engagement and your ultimate marriage, did you ever engage in any extramarital affair or sexual contact with anyone other than your wife?

L

Les Wexner4:12:34

No one. We're really happy you asked that question.

I

Interviewer4:13:36

Is it your testimony here today that Mr. Epstein's wealth came from not only yourself but also this extensive network of clients that were also wealthy or otherwise influential individuals?

L

Les Wexner4:14:04

No question. Absolutely. And you know, sitting here today, with the benefit of hindsight being 20/20, how do you think that the United States Congress could prevent the crimes and, in your words, cons, that Mr. Epstein and by extension Miss Maxwell committed on victims around the world and specifically in the United States?

Well, I would hope that this interview or whatever it is today would help you to understand that he was a crook and a con man. And in hindsight, looking back, he would make Bernie Madoff look like a boy scout. So complete, so diabolical. I mean, just incredible, sinister. If I were giving the government advice, I'd tell the IRS to look into Jeffrey. He couldn't have made all that money and spent all that money, had the lifestyle he did, and be the crook that he was, and pay taxes. So if he would do the things that he did to those women and do the things that he did to me, then anything is possible. I believe that. And so, if Al Capone went to jail for tax evasion, it would be so obvious to me today that now that I know Jeffrey's a crook and the things he did and the people he was associated with, there was a lot of money and he got it from a lot of people. I can't believe that he had time to really work because he was playing so goddamn much and I never knew it. You know, if it's my attorney or your attorney, I don't even know if you're... I would assume your attorney, but if you had one and every time you talked to him and he said, "I'm in the office working on your stuff," I don't think you'd run over there to see whether he was working on your stuff or believe that he wasn't in the office. But the con was so thorough. I mean, I've searched my memory and say why didn't I pick up clues and I think he could trick me all over again if I was in that position of trust with someone like that. Really bad. Unbelievable stuff to me now that I look back. People that he said he knew, I believe he knew them. People that he said he worked for, where he went. But you don't do what he did and just rob one bank. You know, I think bank robbers rob a lot of banks. That's how I look at him.

I

Interviewer4:17:14

Are you aware? Did any other individual come to you at any point and make clear to you that they felt they had been defrauded or otherwise wronged by Mr. Epstein in any way?

L

Les Wexner4:17:33

No. And crazily enough, no one ever called for a reference.

I

Interviewer4:17:38

No one ever called you for a reference.

L

Les Wexner4:17:40

Photo reference. No one. People would call that he said like the chief technologist of Google and then a guy would call up and say he was the chief technologist of Google and I want to build a boat. So somebody says they know the chief technologist, the guy calls up and says hello I'm the chief technologist. I didn't... I mean I could have been talking to an actor in hindsight. And it's just... I don't think I'd ever been conned before. I've seen movies about it. It's like I think if the government really understands that, then a lot of things you'd be able to dig into that aren't... I just... he should be exposed.

I

Interviewer4:18:44

All right. I think that ends it for us right now. We'll go off the record.

We can go back on the record. I've got just a few sort of individual cleanup questions about things we've talked about earlier. I'll just move through them chronologically going all the way back to when you first hired Mr. Epstein. If you could just articulate what you recall about what you thought you were getting from him. You described what he ended up doing for you, but what did you understand yourself to be hiring him for at the time?

L

Les Wexner4:19:36

Trying to figure out... When I met Jeffrey, I had somebody managing my personal stuff because there's just a lot of stuff, suddenly complexity in my personal life. And I didn't realize that I had so much complexity until one day it's there. So to me, it was my personal set of stuff. One day it's cold and the next day it's a blizzard. And I realize I've got houses and stuff should be inventoried and buying a car, selling a car, just a lot of stuff. And I hired a Harold just to make sure that I had somebody who had accounting, not financial sense because I wasn't looking to make more money, just someone to kind of manage things. And so today, I guess you'd call it a family office person because I wasn't looking for accounting and I wasn't looking for investment. I was just looking for someone to just make sure that everything was in order and nothing crazy was happening. And I had sensed that Jeffrey or that Harold wasn't doing a good enough job. Just didn't have the bandwidth for the complexity. And mentioned to Bob and Wendy that I just things were a mess or was worried they were a mess. And then coincidentally drove down the street as I mentioned, met him and asked him... I don't know, it was 6 months later or a year later, something talking to Bob and Wendy, they said we should call him. So I called him, said, "You remember when we met? I said I've got a guy running my personal stuff because I want to keep business away from personal. Could you take a look at it? You're smart. You're financially oriented." And he said, "It's not what I do, but you know, you're Wendy's friend. You're Bob's friend. I'll come and take a look." So he started doing that and said, "Harold isn't very competent. There's nothing amiss, just it's not tidied up the way you think you should, the way I think a professional would think things should be tidied in your financial personal life." And I said, "Well, you've looked at this, what do I owe you?" And again, part of the con was, "I don't want to be paid." And so after two years of him sorting it out, cleaning it out, I thought... started to pay him for the work. I don't remember what it was at the time, but in terms of professional fees and whatever, I thought it was fair and that's how it happened. So I think I'm giving you a long answer, but to understand in context, because if I just say yes or no, you won't understand it. And I just really want this whole group to understand it. And I never would have guessed I was being conned. Never ever.

I

Interviewer4:23:02

The deceit was so subtle.

L

Les Wexner4:23:05

Yes. I never...

I

Interviewer4:23:06

Answer the question.

L

Les Wexner4:23:08

Okay.

I

Interviewer4:23:08

I'm sure we all appreciate the stories. We're just trying to answer the questions that they actually wanted to be answered.

L

Les Wexner4:23:16

That's very helpful. Thank you.

I

Interviewer4:23:17

I hope it is. And could I ask you, I think you said in the last hour it was your understanding that Mr. Epstein, while he was working for you, also had other clients. Is that right?

L

Les Wexner4:23:29

Yes.

I

Interviewer4:23:31

So would that mean that his work for you, you understood it to be part-time?

L

Les Wexner4:23:43

I wouldn't describe it that way. You know, I knew it wasn't full-time because he had other clients of substance, real substance.

I

Interviewer4:23:53

As a listener, it sounds like substantial demands that you're describing. You were and of course are one of the wealthiest people in the country. Managing all of your personal affairs, I would think, would typically demand all of somebody's bandwidth. Sounds like that was an issue with the guy before Epstein. How was he able to do that job but also do work for other clients at the same time?

L

Les Wexner4:24:16

Well, like Peg does the work now. I think you could supervise the work, overview it, which isn't the work that I do, and say you could do really thorough work if you were doing it three or four days a month, certainly a week or a day a month just focusing on these things because there were accountants and tax lawyers and other people. And once setting... as an example, I wouldn't have had the idea to inventory furniture or valuables. And it's like, how could you have all silverware in your house and what... I didn't count forks and spoons. And it's like Jeff said, "People could be walking out with forks and spoons." Gee, that's a good idea. We ought to have an inventory. Then there was a... I hired a lady that would be like the house manager who had run the US embassy in Rome and she said, "Yeah, I know how to do this." And I said, "Well, why don't we keep inventories of stuff?" And she said, "Yeah, I could do that." So she did that. That's kind of a puny example, but I wouldn't have had the idea. But then all the things were inventoried. That wasn't work for me or Jeffrey. It was just regularly done.

I

Interviewer4:25:49

Answer questions. Okay.

L

Les Wexner4:25:54

Okay.

I

Interviewer4:25:55

A discreet question on a different topic. We know that at one point you owned a property in Palm Beach. It was a large oceanfront estate. We understand that you sold that estate to a guy named Abe Ghostman or Gossman. And that later, Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein got into a bidding war over that property. Do you have any knowledge of or did you have any involvement in that dispute between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Trump?

L

Les Wexner4:26:24

No.

I

Interviewer4:26:32

I'd like to touch on a few specific allegations that have been made with respect to Mr. Epstein's crimes. Maria Farmer has been discussed several times today. I'll try not to repeat that too much, but there are a few aspects of her story that I did want to touch on with you. Miss Farmer has said that the home we've discussed, you said Mr. Kessler sold it to Mr. Epstein. It's adjacent to your property. Miss Farmer has said that that home at the time was guarded by your security staff and at least one member of your security staff told the Washington Post that that was accurate at least at the time which I think was 1996. Do you have any sense of why this home that at that point was not on your property and wasn't your home would have been guarded by your security staff?

C

Counsel4:27:23

Objection to the hearsay. Answer.

L

Les Wexner4:27:26

No. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not the home was guarded by your security staff either then or now?

Then for sure not. My daughter lives there now with her husband. So I'm sure they pay attention to it, but I don't know for sure because it's part of the family that they pay attention to it. But that's as close as I can get.

I

Interviewer4:27:51

When it was owned by Mr. Kessler and Mr. Epstein, you have no knowledge of whether or not it was guarded by your security staff.

L

Les Wexner4:28:00

I have no knowledge. I would doubt, but it would be frankly impossible. Pardon me. Impossible.

I

Interviewer4:28:06

Does that sound strange at all? It sounds a little strange to us as readers and listeners that a home that is not yours would be affirmatively guarded by your security.

L

Les Wexner4:28:15

Me, too.

I

Interviewer4:28:19

Miss Farmer says that she, in the wake of her assault, reached out to the county sheriff's office and that she was told, quote, "We work for Wexner" and the sheriff's office confirmed that at that time they were contracted to assist with your security detail. Do you have any sense of why that would have been the case?

C

Counsel4:28:37

Same objection to the statement. Answer.

L

Les Wexner4:28:42

No. The closest I could get to that would be sometimes people who work for county security, Columbus police force, we would use part-time police, like at entrances or patrolling, but it wouldn't have been employees of ours. I don't... So it's possible, but I didn't. It's weird. I don't know the sheriff.

I

Interviewer4:29:09

Could you elaborate for a moment on what that part-time role would have been like? A special event? They would be at the entrance.

L

Les Wexner4:29:18

Yeah, it would have been special events. Yeah, that's very accurate.

I

Interviewer4:29:22

Miss Farmer says that that summer when she wanted to leave the home, she had to call the main house, your house, and ask for your wife's permission. Do you have any knowledge about whether that's accurate?

L

Les Wexner4:29:36

I doubt that it's accurate and I have no knowledge.

I

Interviewer4:29:41

And I think you said earlier, but just to make sure, when did you first become aware of Miss Farmer's allegations?

L

Les Wexner4:29:48

In the press.

I

Interviewer4:29:51

Did your security staff or anyone else on your staff ever alert you to any unusual incident or event involving Mr. Epstein at the home that we've been discussing?

L

Les Wexner4:30:05

None.

I

Interviewer4:30:08

Are you aware of any other incidents related to sexual assault or misconduct where somebody on your property or Mr. Epstein's former property adjacent called the sheriff's office for help?

L

Les Wexner4:30:21

Absolutely not. Not a word.

I

Interviewer4:30:29

I'd like to touch on Victoria's Secret and Mr. Epstein presenting himself as a recruiter. Again, I know it's been discussed earlier. I'll try to cover new ground to the extent possible. I think you had testified that you were alerted to that issue once. It's been publicly reported that in 1993, President Cynthia Fedus Fields, who was an executive at Victoria's Secret at the time, was alerted that Epstein was holding himself out as a Victoria's Secret scout and that you were alerted to the problem and said that you would stop it. Does that sound like the time from which you recall being told about the issue?

L

Les Wexner4:31:11

Maybe it doesn't. It could have been. And I was trying to think when she worked in the business and when she left, but yeah, probably right. I don't know for sure.

I

Interviewer4:31:21

What do you specifically recall about when you were alerted to the issue? In other words, who approached you and what did they describe specifically?

L

Les Wexner4:31:40

Something like, "Jeff's trying to pick up women and he says he's a Victoria's Secret talent scout." I said, "That's terrible or nonsense. I'll put a stop to it," something like that. Because I couldn't... it could be possible, I think in my memory, but I didn't believe it. But I know I called him up and said, "Jeffrey, what is going on?" He said, "Do you think I'm stupid?" I said, "I hope not, because if not, you'll be dead." It was a brief, very brief conversation. I remember him being definite about it, that it didn't happen. And it wasn't a long conversation. I was mad.

I

Interviewer4:32:29

So it was a blanket denial from Mr. Epstein.

L

Les Wexner4:32:31

That's very accurate.

I

Interviewer4:32:32

And did you believe or were you convinced by his denial at the time?

L

Les Wexner4:32:38

At the time, yes, I did believe it.

I

Interviewer4:32:41

So is it right that you were no longer upset following that conversation because you believed that he had not in fact held himself out as a scout?

L

Les Wexner4:32:51

That's accurate. Yes, that's how I felt.

I

Interviewer4:32:53

Do you recall whether you had the impression that your executives simply made the story up?

L

Les Wexner4:33:03

I don't recall. Just knowing how I think about things, I probably would have said this is just Jeffrey single, you know, it's a thing to say. A rumor could get started. I got to chase it down because, God forbid, anybody was doing in the business, let alone outside the business, was dating people in the business or dating models or recruiting them or any of the stuff that we now know is true. I would have fired him on the spot.

I

Interviewer4:33:38

In May 1997, a young woman named Alicia Arden says that she was introduced to a man who identified himself as a talent scout for Victoria's Secret. That was Jeffrey Epstein. Mr. Epstein allegedly invited Miss Arden to his hotel room in Santa Monica, California to audition for the catalog. When she arrived, Mr. Epstein grabbed her, tried to undress her, and said he wanted to manhandle her. Miss Arden fled in tears and filed a police report. It's one of the earliest allegations that are known against Mr. Epstein.

L

Les Wexner4:34:10

Yeah.

I

Interviewer4:34:10

Were you alerted to this sexual assault at the time?

C

Counsel4:34:14

Same objection to your statement, but go ahead.

L

Les Wexner4:34:16

Kind of the same answer. I don't know how I knew about it. And you called Jeffrey like, "What the hell's going on, Jeffrey?" And I was like, "Do you think I'm stupid?" Yeah. Like this was a bad girl. You know, I was on a date. She made all this stuff up. You don't think I behave this way, would you? Like I hope not was probably what I said because I couldn't believe that anybody that I knew would behave like that.

I

Interviewer4:34:44

And what you're describing, is that the original single conversation you described earlier or is that a separate conversation with Mr. Epstein about the issue?

L

Les Wexner4:34:56

I'm a little confused. The question about the lady in the hotel in New York was one conversation and the notion or the discussion about Jeffrey's interviewing models I think was a separate one and they didn't happen simultaneously.

I

Interviewer4:35:14

I understand. It sounds like that might have been about four years apart from each other.

L

Les Wexner4:35:17

You could tell me four years or four months. I don't remember.

I

Interviewer4:35:20

So it sounds like at that point there would have been at least two conversations with Mr. Epstein about the broader Victoria's Secret issue. In 2004, a woman named Elizabeth Thai had a similar experience. She was invited to Mr. Epstein's New York home under the impression that he would be able to get her a job as a Victoria's Secret model. Mr. Epstein allegedly undressed and handed her a vibrator. Miss Thai threw the vibrator at his head and ran out of the room. Were you made aware of this allegation at the time?

L

Les Wexner4:35:58

I never heard this story before.

I

Interviewer4:36:02

In 2005, the New York Post ran an article describing a Romanian model who allegedly landed a gig at Wexner's Victoria's Secret brand thanks to Mr. Epstein. Did you have any knowledge about models who actually acquired jobs at Victoria's Secret, directly or indirectly, through Mr. Epstein?

L

Les Wexner4:36:26

Laughing. No, but I didn't meet, interview, or pick models. That wasn't what I did and no one in the business did.

I

Interviewer4:36:38

And but just to phrase it clearly, to your knowledge, did Victoria's Secret ever hire or contract with a model at the recommendation of Jeffrey Epstein?

L

Les Wexner4:36:48

No. I can't imagine they did. I wouldn't know if they did, but the way that we handled our marketing, it couldn't have happened. I think I would have known because it just wasn't the practice.

I

Interviewer4:37:06

Could I ask one follow-up question with respect to that second conversation and the young woman named Alicia Arden? I know they were a few years apart, but if you recall, was there any part of you that doubted whether Mr. Epstein had been truthful in his denial with you the first time?

L

Les Wexner4:37:28

At that time, I don't think I connected them. You can't imagine how busy I was. I was engaged. I was married. I'm running 20 businesses. I never made the connection.

I

Interviewer4:37:45

And as far as you recall, those are the only two times that you were alerted to Mr. Epstein holding himself out as affiliated with Victoria's Secret.

L

Les Wexner4:37:54

Those stories. Yeah.

I

Interviewer4:37:57

It's been reported that following Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019, the limited company L Brands retained two different law firms to investigate Epstein's affiliation with the company. We're not aware of those reports ever having been made public. To your knowledge, were those investigations completed?

L

Les Wexner4:38:16

When was it?

I

Interviewer4:38:17

This would be after the arrest. So in 2019 and 2020.

L

Les Wexner4:38:23

I'm not aware that the board investigated Jeffrey.

I

Interviewer4:38:28

And I think the first law firm investigation was for the board, broadly speaking, and then some individual board members engaged a law firm to perform a second investigation. But it sounds like you have no knowledge of either investigation.

L

Les Wexner4:38:43

I found out about two weeks ago from one of our ex-board members that he had hired Croll to investigate Jeffrey and I never knew it.

I

Interviewer4:38:53

Could you elaborate on that just a moment? In other words, a board member described what exactly?

L

Les Wexner4:39:01

This was two weeks ago that he was worried about Jeffrey and he asked Jules Croll to investigate him.

I

Interviewer4:39:14

Is Jules Croll an investigator? White collar criminal?

L

Les Wexner4:39:17

He was a Justice Department, FBI kind of a guy, started his own firm. I think it's the largest international private investigation firm in the world. And so he said, and I said, "So what happened?" And he said, "He didn't think Jeffrey was a good guy." And what else he said? That's all he would say. He said, "Just not a good guy." And he said he asked him for specifics and Jules said, "I don't have any specifics. He's not a good guy," whatever that meant.

I

Interviewer4:39:51

Do you recall approximately what time frame the Croll review was undertaken or how was it described to you?

L

Les Wexner4:40:00

Well, the way it was described to me is the board member asked Jules Croll. He didn't tell me it was a board thing. And so it must have been about 2019 or 2020 because I know when I retired, I know when all those things happened. But I had no knowledge of it and I was quite frankly, it made no difference to me, but I was kind of surprised that somebody on the board would investigate somebody and not tell me, as the founder principal, whatever. They didn't, which is probably a good thing.

I

Interviewer4:40:50

So for the two law firm investigations I described and this separate Croll inquiry, it sounds like you had no awareness of those when they occurred.

L

Les Wexner4:41:00

Nothing.

I

Interviewer4:41:06

I would like to introduce Minority Exhibit J.

L

Les Wexner4:41:30

One more.

I

Interviewer4:41:31

Yeah.

So, as you can see, this is an email from June of 2008, right around the time that Epstein pled guilty to soliciting a minor for prostitution. And you said to him, quote, "Abigail told me the result. All I can say is I feel sorry. You violated your own number one rule. Always be careful." And Epstein replied, "No excuse." So clearly either you knew or Epstein had said to you that his number one rule was to be careful. What in your recollection was he so careful about?

L

Les Wexner4:42:21

About being honest and stealing from me, us, these criminal terrible horrible things that he did. And I don't know what prompted me when I saw this. I think it was just giving him the finger. Something in the news, something. Maybe it was the fact that Abigail told me and I was just cooking on it and I just wanted like, "You sold yourself as a careful honest fiduciary and you completely robbed us, did all these terrible things."

I

Interviewer4:43:06

It sounds like you at least at the time understood that Mr. Epstein would say that his number one rule was to be careful. Is that correct?

L

Les Wexner4:43:16

Correct.

I

Interviewer4:43:17

What do you recall that being in the context of when Mr. Epstein would say that? Why was that his number one rule? I'll phrase it that way.

L

Les Wexner4:43:25

Well, again, he alleged himself to be a fiduciary and I'm always careful about my clients. You know, I don't do risky investments. I'm not looking for cleverness. I was looking for accuracy, conservative. I just run things really smoothly. And Jeffrey would say, "Don't worry. I'm always very careful." And that might have meant to be not abusive to my admin or to be prompt and accurate with tax returns. He's just careful because that's what you would expect. If my personal attorney would have said, "Don't worry, I'm always careful on your account," that would ring comfortably for me.

I

Interviewer4:44:20

And you touched on it, but in terms of how what you can recall about how you felt at the time, the crimes, even the crime that he pled to was not insignificant. It involved a minor. Do you recall? I mean, that would seem not to necessarily be the product of simply not being careful. So do you recall whether you felt anger, shock, or simply how could you have been so careless?

L

Les Wexner4:44:52

I don't remember how I felt. Probably anger that a person in a trust position could be so mistrusted, so crooked, so bad.

I

Interviewer4:45:09

As far as you can recall, when was the last time you spoke with Mr. Epstein?

L

Les Wexner4:45:15

Well, it was probably sometime before I gave him the finger. So it probably was in '07 or '08, sometimes when he got in trouble. In my mind, he died.

I

Interviewer4:45:25

Well, definitely at this point you two were in communication. So that's the middle of 2008.

L

Les Wexner4:45:32

You have someone spoke to him.

I

Interviewer4:45:34

Sure. I'll clarify. Any form of electronic or verbal communication.

L

Les Wexner4:45:39

I wouldn't remember that I did this. What I remember is when I found out how bad his sexual behavior was and he was stealing from us, dead.

I

Interviewer4:45:51

If you recall, I think you had said that he initially framed the investigation to you as involving a massage and an overzealous police chief. At least that was what your counsel represented to the DOJ. Do you recall that?

L

Les Wexner4:46:10

I don't recall it. I think that... I don't know that he told Abigail that and she told me, not what she told... I don't know how I know. I don't know.

I

Interviewer4:46:27

Do you recall when you first became aware of his crimes involving minors?

L

Les Wexner4:46:35

I don't recall.

I

Interviewer4:46:39

There is evidence that Mr. Epstein tried to get in touch with you in 2010 and 2011. We don't know whether that continued later. Do you have any recollection of having any form of contact with him after 2008?

L

Les Wexner4:46:58

Nothing. I'm positive that I had no contact, no communication of any kind. I keep repeating it. From my point of view, he died. I didn't want to even think about it.

I

Interviewer4:47:17

Starting to wrap up. Are there other individuals from Mr. Epstein's orbit at the time that you think we should talk to who might have an understanding of Mr. Epstein's crimes?

L

Les Wexner4:47:44

What I'm thinking is that he referenced several people that I never met. Do I think they might have information? Possibly. But I don't know whether he made it up or he really did it.

I

Interviewer4:48:03

Do you recall some examples of people he would reference?

L

Les Wexner4:48:07

Yeah. He'd say, "I was in Aspen last week." I say, "Oh, what were you doing in Aspen?" And he said, "The family that owns Fidelity in Massachusetts, Johnson. I worked for Abigail Johnson and I was there talking to her about their family situation." But he could have been making it up, but at the time, he works with the Johnson family. They're pretty sophisticated. He would talk about the founders of Google, that they were friends and he'd visit them. He would talk about, "You got to come out to San Francisco. You should meet the Amazon guy." Bezos. And I said, "No, I'm too busy and I'm interested and I don't do what he does." And he said, "But he's really a smart guy. You should meet him." I said, "If I'm ever over in San Francisco, I'll look him up. I'm too busy." The Google guys. And I never met them. I never met Abigail Johnson, but I know the name. That's all I can recall. But there were so many names dropped. I don't know as much interest in celebrities, political celebrities or whatever. He was just like, "I know so and so." I don't want to mislead you and get a woman I don't know in trouble like Abigail Johnson. But up until the fact that I believed that he was a crook, I believed that he knew all these people.

I

Interviewer4:50:17

Do you recall whether he ever described anybody as his closest personal friends? Do you have an understanding of who his close friends would be?

L

Les Wexner4:50:37

No. He would talk about friends that he had. He would tell me how friendly he was with Eva's husband. And I always thought that's kind of funny that you're friends with your ex-fiancée's husband. But it was stuff like that. Did I believe that he knew Clinton? No, I didn't believe it. But sometimes people say they knew people in high places.

I

Interviewer4:51:15

Do you have any reflections as we close this conversation, whether it's on your relationship with Mr. Epstein or the pain and suffering that he and his accomplices inflicted on countless victims and survivors largely with your resources? Any reflections of any kind on the entire topic?

C

Counsel4:51:32

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

L

Les Wexner4:51:37

Well, I believe he had a lot of resources besides mine. I think the only thing I said earlier was that if you really understand, I think in hindsight he had multiple personalities, incredibly smart, which I didn't really see. I mean, you can talk to Nobel laureates about physics and university professors and physicians and all the people that I've read about. I mean, if it was a movie, no one would believe it. But what I read about him and the connections is so... and I think the perspective to understand it would be to understand how intelligent he was as a criminal and all the things that he did. And I have trouble imagining how he could do all that he did. Forget about work in a 48-hour day because it was always so busy with my stuff. And then you find out all these relationships. It's just mind-boggling. And some of it even today I can't believe it's so, but I believe some of this stuff because I read about it. I mean, stuff I read yesterday I said, "I can't believe this." And I think to understand the criminal activities, all this stuff, it's like I hope you guys are really good and, as I said earlier, probably to the dismay of my advisors, to give you an accurate picture of how I am and how he was, how I perceived him. And I mean, diabolical isn't a big enough word. And I think I said early, Bernie Madoff was a boy scout compared to Jeffrey. I mean, if I just believe what I read in the press about people that he contacted, university presidents, Gergen, my friend. I mean, it's just crazy. But he was beyond perfect or good at doing all that he did. It's just... I think the rumor and innuendo that goes around me makes me very mad because I think I'm a very straight arrow and a very responsible person. I don't want to give you a speech on my virtue, but I'm comfortable in my own skin. And I look at it and say it's so preposterous to me what he got away with so long with so many people that I can't imagine how a mind could do that and be robbing banks. It's crazy.

I

Interviewer4:54:55

Thank you. And then one last question. I think your counsel has represented to DOJ that your assets accounted for virtually all of Mr. Epstein's wealth. Sounds like you don't agree with that.

L

Les Wexner4:55:08

I don't know. I wouldn't know it, but I really don't know what his wealth is. But you know, island house, all that lifestyle, buying people's gifts, it would seem to me that having a good sense of how much money he probably stole from us or more than that that we don't even know about yet because it was disguised. I think it's vast. I know if you said to do all the things he did, and I know now he was, if you would, a bank robber. Bank robbers don't rob one bank. That was just there. There's more there. And I can understand why people like myself who were robbed don't want to be mentioned because they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to appear naive or dumb. I mean, when I look in the mirror, I know I see an honest person, but in this I was completely blind.

I

Interviewer4:56:15

Okay, thank you. We can go off record.

WATCH | Les Wexner, Fmr. Jeffrey Epstein Financier Testifies Before Congress

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