Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Chairman, Spotify Technology
"We were really working in our underwear" - Spotify founder Daniel Ek (Eng sub) | Skavlan
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About Daniel Ek
Daniel Ek has discussed his early interest in technology and music, noting that he received a guitar at age four and a Vic 20 computer at age five, later finding a C64 computer more engaging. He described working with his co-founder in their underwear in a hot apartment while developing Spotify, and said he is glad record executives did not see those early days. Ek stated that the driving force behind starting Spotify was not money but a desire to change the world so people could make more good music, and he said selling the company is out of the question. Reflecting on the music industry, Ek said that people misunderstand Napster, arguing that it led to people listening to more music from a greater diversity of artists. He recounted meeting record executives and convincing them to license music by arguing that "you beat piracy by having a better product, not by trying to shut them down." Ek acknowledged skepticism from content companies about disruption and said he aimed to create a service that works better
Transcript (59 segments)
✨ AI-enhanced transcript with speaker attribution
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Interviewer0:01
It’s not often one sees you in Stockholm.
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Daniel Ek0:03
No, it doesn't exactly happen every day. And especially not to be here in Sweden and speak to a Nordic audience.
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Interviewer0:14
You spend a lot of time in the U.S. and are working there a lot right now. Do you have to be a bit more of a "preacher" in the U.S.? I’m thinking about Steve Jobs and Facebook, Zuckerberg, and all those people.
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Daniel Ek0:28
It doesn't come naturally to me. I started out as a programmer. I used to sit down in a basement or a dark room and code on the computer. For me, that might not be the most natural thing to do.
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Interviewer0:41
We'll hear a little more about that, but first I just have to go back to the beginning of Spotify. For those who don't know, Spotify is a technological innovation that allows you to legally share music online. And you were convinced of this as a 24-year old. Why did you think this was a brilliant idea when you were 24?
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Daniel Ek1:07
I thought that this was what people actually did. In '98 and '99, a music program called Napster came along, and it changed my life. All of a sudden, I discovered a bunch of artists through other people. Many of them were old classics, like Led Zeppelin or the Beatles. Whatever it may have been. So I thought there had to be a better way to do this, and it had to be possible to make it easier. That’s why we have problems with pirate copying—simply because the solutions that were available weren't good enough.
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Interviewer1:41
But when it comes to convincing the record labels and the record company executives, who viewed this as piracy that people downloaded music illegally. Right. What kind of world did you step into?
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Daniel Ek1:59
I remember the first time I met one of these executives and then I noticed in the background an iPad. And this was before the iPad was released. So this was one of the very first iPads, before anyone had even seen an iPad. That he had managed to get hold of. Yes, that he had managed to get hold of. So I asked him something like this: "What is that?" "It was just something I got." He hadn't even tried it. And a little while later, someone comes in with a piece of paper and asks... He said to himself: "What does this fax say?" "No, but that's your email address." Oh, I see. So he actually had an email printed out, and he says, "Fax it back to this person." So he's never even tried a computer.
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Interviewer2:46
So this was the industry you came into to challenge?
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Daniel Ek2:49
Yeah, that's when I realized it might not be enough to just work on this for a month or two to get this done. That it would take a little longer. And it took two years. Fortunately, there are also many people at the record companies who, of course, look to the future and use computers.
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Interviewer3:08
But it's maybe not surprising if we see this from the point of the former executives who may have been there from the very beginning of pop. I guess it’s not really that surprising that they... I mean, you came over and basically just said that what you really meant was that you wanted to have all their music and give it away for free. It’s a 24-year-old who comes out of a basement in Sweden. A computer nerd. Can you see it from their point of view? It's simply a robbery.
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Daniel Ek3:41
Yeah, they were a little skeptical at first, let's put it that way. But I think that what we managed to do anyway, and a lot of it was really just that we believed in our idea, and we kept working to improve it. We kept up this stubborn determination to come in every week and to keep scheduling meetings with them and just listen to their arguments and come up with some new arguments ourselves. Ultimately, I think a lot of it came down to the fact that they got to try out the product. We developed the product while negotiating with the record labels and then we gave it to them. And finally, they discovered that this is amazing. This has to exist. And that’s when we found a solution.
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Interviewer4:22
And today, it has something like 15 million songs.
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Daniel Ek4:27
We have 15 million songs, for sure.
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Interviewer4:30
That's amazing. It's a large online library, which means that someone at least should be able to make money from music again.
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Daniel Ek4:43
Every time someone plays a song, we pay the artist and the record labels in the end.
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Interviewer4:50
You know, this guy, Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple, he started out in a garage. You started in a basement. Can you describe a little bit what it was like in that basement?
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Daniel Ek5:01
Yeah, this is going to sound awful... But we can try. This was in my apartment in Rågsved, a suburb of Stockholm. I had all my computers and servers at home in my apartment. In that case, you could say that if you have that, it usually gets pretty hot. So it was 30 degrees inside. Usually, when I did the laundry, I could hang the clothes right away in the closet and they were dry because it was so hot.
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Interviewer5:37
So that's where you sat working in just your underwear?
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Daniel Ek5:41
Yeah, the thing is, my co-founder and I were literally working in our underwear. So it probably wasn't far from that. I suppose I should be glad that those record executives didn't see those days. Instead, they met us when we had dressed up a little bit, at least.
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Interviewer6:00
But you've been accepted into the prestigious school at KTH, the Royal Institute of Technology. But you dropped out?
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Daniel Ek6:13
Yeah, exactly. About 8 weeks, or something like that.
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Interviewer6:18
Why is that?
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Daniel Ek6:21
I kind of felt like I thought KTH was absolutely fantastic because I met so many people who I later recruited to my company. That was great. One of my professors, whom I met in my first class, he now works at Spotify. I think KTH was great.
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Interviewer6:46
But eventually you became such a rich man, that you were able to rise from the basement and into a red Ferrari.
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Daniel Ek6:52
Yeah, that's right. There were a few steps in between.
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Interviewer7:00
Can you tell me a little bit about it? During those Ferrari days, what was your life like?
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Daniel Ek7:05
I grew up in front of a computer. It wasn't exactly the coolest thing a guy could do. It wasn't as if everyone was thinking, "Yeah, but that guy, he's sitting there in front of the computer all the time. He's the one I want." So it was a bit lonely for a while. And then I got a little older and started dating. That’s when I thought, if you have money, then the whole thing with the girls will work itself out. Then you can go to any club. It feels incredibly wrong today, knowing how things are. But what I noticed was that I didn't get any girls—that's how it ended. No, but what I noticed was that those weren't the kind of girls I was looking for.
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Interviewer7:55
Thank you.
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Daniel Ek8:00
It's tragic, but I was 23. And I got pretty depressed because I thought that was it, that was what it was all about in the end. That's why people start playing music. They want the girls. I wasn't very good at that. So I had to settle for something else.
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Interviewer8:19
But then I started thinking about what I wanted to do with my life. At that time you were like 23?
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Daniel Ek8:24
Yes, 23.
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Interviewer8:25
23, a millionaire, and pretty unhappy.
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Daniel Ek8:28
Yes, absolutely.
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Interviewer8:31
And you thinking about what you wanted to do with your life?
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Daniel Ek8:33
Yeah, but what happened was that I sat down and thought about it like this: What really matters to me? What do I enjoy doing? And then it occurred to me that I really loved this sense of creativity. This whole thing about actually doing something, and even if it's just in a small way, to change the world. And then, of course, music and technology have always been around. And then it occurred to me that this whole Napster thing, well, it's actually a fantastic service. But it didn't work for the artists. And that’s when I wanted to do something that works better for users and works for the artist at the same time.
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Interviewer9:10
You wanted to engage in piracy, but you wanted to do it legally.
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Daniel Ek9:14
Exactly. I wanted to do something that was even better.
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Interviewer9:16
You were a pirate yourself, just to be clear. You stole a bunch of music.
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Daniel Ek9:20
Absolutely, tons. "That's all I did," I was about to say.
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Interviewer9:23
You've also had the chance to work with Bono and Neil Young during this process. What is that like, you've been stealing their music for years, and now you're trying to be friends with them somehow. Is that transition a little hard?
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Daniel Ek9:39
No, but here's what I think anyway. Basically, what I want to do is take the music industry back again. And I mean, the thing that makes me happiest right now when I talk to people here at the Nordic record companies, where Spotify is actually an incredibly big portion of all the money that comes in. The thing is, they can now actually sign more artists now than they could before.
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Interviewer10:04
But why do you think artists like Coldplay and Paul McCartney don't want to be part of it?
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Daniel Ek10:09
I think it's because they might not really understand the model. Because this is a completely different model. Even on iTunes, it was the case that you'd sell one copy and suddenly here, as you say, the music is given away, but there’s also quite a bit of them who choose to pay.
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Interviewer10:25
Some bands get upset because you're sharing their music.
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Daniel Ek10:31
Yes, but again, here's what I think. I usually find that when you sit down with the artist afterward and explain how passionate you are about getting people to come back to the music industry and actually make a difference, you win them over.
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Interviewer10:48
There is a lot of speculation about how much your company is worth. And $2 billion is a figure that has been mentioned. What do you think of that number?
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Daniel Ek11:00
That was fun. I don't really think about it.
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Interviewer11:05
What I'm thinking about... Sure, you're thinking about it. You have to think about that.
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Daniel Ek11:11
No, I really don't.
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Interviewer11:15
$2 billion!! Think about it now for a moment. We have time!
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Daniel Ek11:18
Then I have to think for quite some time. I feel like, there are 500 million people all over the world who listen to music online.
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Interviewer11:29
It could get a lot bigger—that's what you're saying.
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Daniel Ek11:30
Yes, it could get much, much bigger.
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Interviewer11:32
But is it really out of the question... Because there has been speculation that both Facebook and Apple are interested parties to buy this. Is it completely out of the question to sell it?
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Daniel Ek11:41
No way. It's out of the question. I really believe in what we're doing, and we just want to keep doing it. And once again, we started Spotify... I had money to begin with. For me, money wasn't the driving force. The driving force was to see if it was possible to change the world so that people could make more good music.
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Interviewer12:00
What happened to the Ferrari?
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Daniel Ek12:02
It's sold. It's gone.
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Interviewer12:06
Daniel Ek, I’m really glad you’re here with us today. Thank you very much. You'll be staying here for a while. Thank you so much for being here.