Hello and welcome to Esprit d'Entreprise, the program of major interviews on Figaro TV. A program that gives the floor to business leaders. Hello, Olivia.
Today, we are pleased to welcome Alexandre Bompard. Hello. You are the CEO of Carrefour, one of the French leaders in retail. 100 billion euros in revenue. All consumers know you, and for good reason, you are present throughout France, everywhere in the territory with more than 6,000 points of sale and in all formats. You are in convenience stores, you have supermarkets, you have hypermarkets. Alexandre Bompard, you have just been reappointed for 3 years at the head of Carrefour. You have set your objectives: artificial intelligence, the redefinition of the product offering, refocusing on a few countries, and of course, we'll talk about it, the battle on prices. So we will of course discuss your strategy for Carrefour and how you have led its transformation. It's been almost 10 years now, but we see that we are in a very special moment for consumption. So we will talk about how the retail sector is adapting to this environment, to the new habits of your customers since COVID. Should this involve a new consolidation of the sector? But first, we'll discuss current events because we see that we are living in a world that is not quite right at the moment, especially with the war in Iran that has started. Despite that, we see that consumption figures are fairly good, at least in France in April. What real impact has this complicated geopolitical environment had on your customers?
Food consumption, as you said, is holding up. It's not good, but it's holding up. On one hand, there is the rise in fuel prices which impacts household purchasing power, which very strongly impacts household purchasing power and therefore gradually changes their habits. But food consumption is holding up, especially because prices are fairly stable, around 1%. So today, we have consumption volumes that are holding up, with French people who are of course worried. They experienced the hyperinflation episode, they had barely gotten out of it with price stability returning, when suddenly the rise in fuel prices hits them. So there is concern, but food consumption, we must remain very cautious, is holding up.
Does that mean they have learned to live with uncertainty as well?
Yeah, I think basically you're right, the French, I was about to say a bit like companies, are getting used to crises. They had COVID, which seems very far away but was yesterday. They obviously had the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, they have the Middle East crisis, they have political uncertainty, fiscal uncertainty, and so we have French people who are basically getting used to, hmm, this slightly anxiety-inducing climate. You never really get used to it, but they have a stronger capacity for resilience, exactly like companies, by the way. That doesn't mean they don't change their habits, but whereas before just one of these elements would have completely disrupted the French in their behavior, today we see a form of resistance, which can also seem like a form of fatigue. These are the phenomena we see in consumption. But including in food consumption, because in fact, consumption is something on which you don't really make trade-offs in the end.
Ah, well, when you do your grocery shopping every day, you are constantly making trade-offs. And in what way? Well, you make trade-offs on the products you buy. Let's take an example: you are part of the third of French people who are struggling with purchasing power. Really struggling, that is, those who can't make ends meet at the end of the month. What do they do? They give up a certain number of products: fresh products, meat, fish. When they take proteins, they take eggs rather than red meat. They give up organic. The trade-offs in consumption in terms of quality, volume, and even brand are permanent. On the contrary, we are faced with customers who, because they are constrained and because they have a multitude of choices as well, are constantly making trade-offs and gradually changing their consumption. We saw this a lot during the hyperinflation period, where we saw extraordinarily profound changes in consumption trends that had been very established in recent years. We're not there yet, but on the other hand, on fuels, yes. There, it's the phenomenon of soaring fuel prices.
You have been summoned or invited several times by the government to discuss prices and margins. Do you make more money on fuel?
Fortunately, through this dialogue and the various commissions and reports, we have managed to make the situation perfectly understood. On fuel, the situation is very simple. I buy today in the morning based on a price. When the tanks empty, in 2 days, I will fill my tanks and I will add roughly 1 centime to the purchase price. So that's your margin? That's my margin. And it never moves. Roughly, I make between 1 and 1.5 centimes per liter. Why? Because in fact, I make no money on fuel. It's a loss leader. There is competition with everyone: with other retailers, with Total, with others. So in fact, it's a loss leader. I make no margin on it. The report commissioned by the government showed that. And so we are, I was going to say like the French, in this very constrained exercise. It's a loss leader for us, only a loss leader.
You have no interest in raising prices excessively. You are received regularly on this topic. Do you make commitments to maintain this margin level with the public authorities?
No, in fact, I refuse to make commitments constantly before the government, this commission. The commitment I make is to guard my customers. We are still in a market economy in this country. When you are in a market economy, it means I have competition. I went to my parents and like everyone, I filled up. What did I notice? I passed five gas stations. Competition was there. I look, it's fierce. That's what the French do. So the reality is that my only commitment, which is worth much more than any putative commitment I would make before some commission, is to be competitive. Because my interest is that the Carrefour customer thinks that the Carrefour station is competitive. It's a brand that plays the game, that is on their side. So in fact, whether it's me or my competitors, no one makes a margin on gasoline.
Among your competitors, there is Total. Since Total is both a refiner and a distributor, is that fair competition? Because it caps its prices. I wouldn't say it's disloyal competition, but you said it very well, it has two businesses: it refines and distributes. Which you don't do, you are only a distributor.
I am not a refiner, so in fact, it doesn't sell to me at the same price as it sells to itself. When it sells to me, it takes a margin, that's normal, it's its job as a refiner. When it sells to itself, it takes no margin. And that allows it, as a distributor, to cap its prices, which I cannot do because I obviously bought more expensively. Is that disloyal competition in the legal sense? I don't know. I would dream that Total sells to all of us at the same price. I can only ask it to. It doesn't do it. Today, it sells to itself obviously cheaper than it sells to me. But that's because it has two businesses.
Appeal made to Patrick Pouyanné. You were talking about the multiplicity of reports and injunctions you have at the moment. The Senate has just launched a very virulent attack against retailers, accusing them of twisting the arms of agrifood manufacturers, particularly through European purchasing centers. Do you understand this criticism?
No, I have already expressed myself a bit on this subject. It's really a biased report. It's even sad for what it says about an institution for which I have immense respect, the Senate. It's a report that... No, if it were just biased, that wouldn't even be serious. But they pile up absurdities, falsehoods, even insults. It's the first time in my considerable experience that I read a parliamentary report that insults a profession with terms like threat, blackmail, fear, virilism about methods. You read that. I put myself in the shoes of Carrefour's employees, of which I am one, and the people who work in purchasing, and you say, how can a few parliamentarians sign such a report? So it's insulting, it's inapplicable. I said it, sorry, but it's Venezuela. That is, if you apply part of this report, you end up in a completely administered, completely regulated, completely controlled world with price controls. And above all, the few parliamentarians who sign this report come at a time when the number one concern of the French is purchasing power, and they say they forgot purchasing power. I'll explain: why do I negotiate? At the beginning of the year, manufacturers came to see me. They present a price list of +6%. That was the level: +6. They say +3 or 4, but really +6. I negotiate with the big ones: Procter & Gamble, Unilever, PepsiCo. I end up at +1. That +1 is what you find on the shelves. If I didn't negotiate, which this report would lead to – it asks us not to negotiate – prices would be around 5 or 6% today. So we have parliamentarians who say to themselves, it's 2026, May 22, 'Hey, I have a great idea: I'll re-trigger mass inflation in this country.'
But why do you have such a bad reputation? Not Carrefour, but the retail sector in general has this bad reputation of being ruthless.
I believe there is an extraordinary disconnect, if you'll allow me, between a few parliamentarians or sometimes a bit of the political class who give in to the sirens of the big agrifood multinationals, and the French. Because when you look at the ranking of French people's favorite companies, in the top 20, we are all there. So the French love us. They have perfectly understood what we are for. They have perfectly understood what retail does, its professions, its role. And we have a parliamentary representation, or part of it, that doesn't understand that, and doesn't understand that when it regulates like that or makes recommendations like that, it goes against the interests of the French without defending the agricultural world it claims to defend.
So, you speak of one of the roles of retail, and it's true that one of the foundations of retail is to negotiate, as you said, to be as cheap as possible. But this price war, this lowering of prices, isn't it deadly? We see that a certain number of brands, like Casino, have suffered a lot, even if for perhaps ancillary reasons, but also because of that. So, how far have we not gone in this price war? Is it not the end of a system?
But sorry, it's not under the pretext of purchasing power. Purchasing power is the main concern of the French. Go tell the French, 'We are going to stop the competition on prices, we will let prices rise,' and the French will suffer. So the reality is, of course, I want to provide food quality. Moreover, that's our model: the food transition for all, quality food accessible to all, the development of organic. But the reality is that the French expect us to make price offers that are compatible with their purchasing power. Is it economically viable? But it is perfectly viable economically, of course. Because, as Olivier said, there have been small accidents. There are many players in the sector. We are even world champions, as you point out. There is extraordinarily strong competition among us. You have to be very far from understanding this sector, like the few senators who wrote this report, not to understand the level of competition between me, Leclerc, Intermarché. It's everyday competition. It's an ultra-competitive sector, and in the end, it's the purchasing power of households that is at stake.
Will there be a consolidation of the sector? There have already been movements. You yourself have negotiated with other groups. Do you think we are in a situation where there could be consolidation?
