Welcome to the Bostics, starring Lauren Bostik and Michael Bostik. Together, they are the Bostics.
Okay, let's get the lay of the land. We were talking off air about you as a mother. I feel like you're asked so many business questions all the time, and we'll get to that. Three kids. What is life really like for you behind the scenes with three kids? Forget about the business for a second. And as a wife, probably what it's like for you, I would imagine.
So, I have three kids, two boys, and it's a hybrid of like a wrestling match at my house all day long. I literally have never met anything in my life with more energy than two brothers. It's unbelievable. And now I have a new baby girl, so that has brought like so much harmony and peace. But my babies are everything. Like, they are my number one. I'm obsessed with them. I love being a mom. I just I mean, I'm sure it's the same way you feel. It's just like they the best.
It is the absolute best. But we're not at the stage because we went girl, boy, boy, and our youngest is only seven. So we haven't like our middle is a ton of energy, but we haven't experienced the two brother energy yet. It's coming.
Everyone that has two boys is buckle up.
What kind of little girl were you when you were growing up?
Calm and creative. I would like sit on the ground and draw all day long, like very calm.
You weren't set up to be entrepreneurial.
Well, I don't know about that because I do think every entrepreneur is inherently imaginative or creative. I mean, that's kind of the foundation of being an entrepreneur. You're a dreamer, right? And all I wanted to do was kind of build these little imaginary worlds and draw them or bring them to life through art. And so I do feel like I had an entrepreneurial kind of capacity. I was always obsessed with creating things. I don't know if it was meant to be in business or not, but I loved to make things and build things and create things.
With your own kids now, are you like leaning into that for them?
Kind of actually. So it's funny. My son was begging me for a job because he wanted to save $200. I'm very anti-technology for kids. Super scared of it. It terrifies me. But he wanted this kid-friendly thing—it basically only calls mom and dad and 911. Anyway, he wanted to make $200. So I've been trying to show him what money is and how it works and how hard it is to earn money. He was begging for a job, and so over the summer we got him this little fake job as a beach lifeguard helper when we were on a trip, and they paid him in coconuts. He was like, 'This isn't money. What am I going to do with this? I can't do anything.' I was like, 'Well, let's turn the coconuts into a business.' So we painted the coconuts and called it Crazy for Coconuts. He put a sign out and had the coconuts for sale for like $6, but if he wanted a custom coconut, it could be $12. Friends and family were saying, 'Okay, I want a coconut with this on it.' He would go and design it, and he started to learn how do you make money. So I'm trying to teach him. He's only six, but I'm trying to instill this imaginative, if you want it, make it, build it, solve it mindset.
Yeah. And well, like also from as an entrepreneur, you kind of are able to look at things that others may not see the opportunity in. To your point with the coconuts, there's an opportunity here if you're clever enough.
Exactly. That's exactly right. And I wanted him to take that away. It's like, someone gave me a coconut, which is such a good metaphor in life. You know, you feel like you're handed coconuts all day long. Like, ugh, I don't want this coconut. Whatever that might be in life. I love to turn straw into gold. That is my favorite thing to do—hand it to me, it might look like nothing, but I love to find the opportunity in things. And I feel like that's honestly probably how I've built my career, is just seeing the light and looking for the cracks of opportunity in moments that didn't present themselves that way.
When was the first moment you remember doing something like that where you were like there was a light bulb and you said, 'Ah, I can turn something into gold'?
In college I started a business. I just wanted to find a way to kind of create change but also build or do something. I was part of the sorority, which it's so funny—when I was in the sorority I felt like they hated me because I was a bad sorority person. The parking tickets, the absences—I never went to chapter. I'm pretty sure they threatened to denounce me from the sorority, Kappa. Now I think they like me. My picture's still on the wall somewhere. I've been reclaimed, so that's good. But I started this silly little company in college—bamboo tote bags. They were made out of bamboo fibers, something environmentally friendly, and I put art on it. I was selling them around campus to try to raise money for the animals in the BP oil spill. Who knows how or why I arrived there as an 18, 19-year-old, but that was one moment of me just trying to hustle. Then I learned how to do the little Facebook ads and I went from there.
You're really a creative strategist.
Maybe. I think I'm just really hyperfunctioning and have to put my energy into things at all times.
You seem like—I feel like I relate to you ever since I listened to you on what's the podcast about the founders?
How I Built This. I feel like I relate to you because it seems like you bring an intensity to your work. I feel like I'm very intense at work, but how do you channel that when you're at home? Is there an intense schedule? Are you intense about being present? Is it in your calendar or are you more lax?
So first of all, I'm trying to be more like you. I saw your AI calendar that you built.
I try. Listen, that's after 10 years of trial and error. I've always been like that.
Well, it's amazing. Oh, and by the way, I order all the stuff that you—I have like a shift wave chair sitting in my room. I don't even know how to set it up.
Oh my god. But I'm going to text you the best one.
It's supposed to be good for your nervous system and your HRV.
You will love it. I heard you on that podcast. I've heard you on other podcasts. You will love it because it changes your state.
Great. I need that. We need that.
Yes, I'm very intense at work. But here's how I would describe myself. I was the student who either got an A or got a D. If I'm uninterested in something, it's just not going to happen. I cannot fake it. I cannot halfway something. I'm either 100% in or I'm just completely out. If I love it, if I'm passionate, if I care about it, you're going to get the sun, the moon, the stars, and the sky. I will go 100 million percent at something. But if I'm not into it, I'm not going to give it even an ounce of energy. I think I've found a career that I genuinely love. I love connecting people. I love helping people find love. I love bringing people together. It's genuinely my passion. Even outside of Bumble, I love to bring my friends together or be like, 'You need to meet this person.' I like to connect people. And so because I care, I'm going to do a great job at it. This is how I am with my house. Designing a home—I am technically OCD. I've been diagnosed with OCD. So I'm very particular—devil's in the details.
Tell me about that. What's the OCD? Is it like making sure the labels are out? What do we have?
So I'm OCD about a few things. One, I'm completely neurotic and weird about SHOES IN A HOUSE.
Well, no, but I'll take it to a different level. I'll hold a grudge if someone comes into my house with shoes on.
I can't even have a conversation with someone if they had their shoes on in my house. I like will start—
So, what do you do when you say shoes off?
Oh, no. There are no shoes in our house.
No, you can't wear shoes inside—
With your fecal matter shoes. Exactly. You stepped on a heroin needle outside and then you want to walk in the house and then the baby's crawling on the floor when I was skipping around in heroin needles. I forgot about that. Yeah.
Well, listen. We don't live in LA anymore. We're not seeing LA. I'm just kidding, guys. Actually, I'm not. It's true.
So, I'm super OCD about that, but I could also obsess over the lining of something if it's off. I fixate on things. But then that also has a downside. There's a positive because if I set my mind to it, I will do it. If I say I will get this done and I will build this thing and I will make it work, I will make it work. But the problem is if I get in a negative loop, it really carries you off. I'm super hypochondriac. So if I get on a loop about a health thing, I cannot get off the loop. That's been a problem for me.
So if you think that you have some kind of ailment even if you don't, it's almost like you get stuck in such a way that you can't stop thinking about it and it drives you insane.
Yep. It used to, and then I started meditating.
Okay. Did you do training for that or you just—
Oh, I got to look him up. Changed my life.
No. Should he come on the show?
Immediately. Okay. Bob is spectacular. He is—you know, I was that type of person. I don't know how y'all are, but I was convinced that meditation was just not for me. I was like, 'Oh, no. I'm too high functioning for that. I can't meditate.' And he came and did this 4-day session with me. It took a couple times. The first I was like, 'What? Okay, I got to go, all the lists.' And then the second day it was transcendent. And it is a game-changer for me.
Meditation has been huge. Spirituality—not religious, and no knocking on religion. Be whatever you want to be in this world, but believing in like higher power, coincidence. You know who you need to have on is Laura Lynn Jackson.
Oh my god. Okay, I'll introduce you to Zusa.
The facialist. We'll trade all these things. But Laura Lynn Jackson changed my life. She wrote the book Signs. Have you read the book Signs?
I'm going to set you up with her. You need to do a session with her. It's going to change your life.
Okay. Can't wait. That's a sign.
Yep. That's a sign. Having a spiritual connection and meditating have been my two like godsends.
I think—as you're talking, I wonder if you relate to this. I don't not think meditation is wrong. I know it could be, and I know other things as well. But what happens is I'm like, 'Okay, I got to accomplish a few things to get through a few things and then I will focus on that at some point.' I know I need to do it but I sometimes don't put it at the forefront and make it a priority. I kind of just grit the teeth and go through it.
Okay. If I were you, I would call Bob Roth.
Okay, give me his number.
Carson, put this down for me.
So, I got him into cranial sacral, which is my favorite thing.
I feel like you've done cranial sacral.
The cranial sacral doctor, Dr. Maria in Austin. She's amazing. Told him that he's blocked.
He can't get in to the dungeon.
Oh, she's going to interview you. Yeah, let's get to the root of this.
Well, I think—listen, I think how you become what you become in life, what you're driven by—what drives you is not always what serves you in the long run, right? And so, you know, I think a lot of people that are maybe type A or driven personalities or people that want to accomplish—there's probably some skeletons in the closet. That's like what the driving force is. You probably know better than most. And I think I did a good job of pushing a lot of things down for a long time and probably still do. And so when she says blocked, I think she's just like I'm not as open to others. So what I mean by there's probably some things I need to work through is like I'm aware that there's things I need to get out, but I just haven't done it yet.
You haven't done it. And you're like, 'I'm too busy. I'll do this later.'
Yeah. And the problem is I know at some point. But what I do is I go, go and then I crash and burn.
And we were talking off air—you now got to a place which we should talk about. You take breaks.
I am very much a go, go, go till the wheels fall off and then crash and then recover.
What did burnout look like specifically? Eat, feel—give us the whole shebang of what the burnout for you looked like? Was it a day? Was it a year?
You know, I think my lowest point was the IPO, which is funny because to the outside world, we IPOed at a $16 billion valuation or something ridiculous. I was 31. They had shut the whole street down to turn the office—
The first woman—the youngest woman to take a company public, all this.
All yeah. But so what? That was my realization—on paper, I'm all over the internet. I'm the youngest this, I'm the that, I'm now a self-made billionaire on paper. These are the things that you think for a decade are going to make you feel something worthy or enough or accepted or validated. And I think this was this mountain I was climbing for so long. When I got there, after the IPO I just broke down and sobbed. I felt so—I just felt empty. And I had my beautiful baby with me, my firstborn, Bobby, my husband was there. I had it all but I was empty.
And I think I was empty for a couple reasons. The first reason was I had burnt myself to the ground. I was waking up at 3:00 in the morning to breastfeed my child and then going back to sleep a little bit, watching them monitor all night, and then getting on these pre-IPO leadup calls. It took almost a year to prep for all of this. I just had this baby and right when I come out of having the baby, we had closed our Blackstone deal and then shortly thereafter we started prepping to go public. It was like a marathon while entering into new motherhood. I just zapped myself. I depleted myself of everything. It was the worst time of my life. I didn't even know which way was up or down. I think I had postpartum depression, which I didn't know what that was. And I felt guilty for having it because I was like, 'I have childcare and my baby's healthy.' There's all these feelings of you don't deserve or you're not allowed to feel these ways because you have it so much better than others. There's this narrative of I don't have permission to feel this way and so much pressure put on myself. The IPO on paper to the world was my wealthiest, most fruitful, most successful moment, and I was just completely empty inside. It was just dark.
So what did you do to rejuvenate yourself? What are the steps that you took? Because maybe someone's listening right now and they feel the same way. They feel empty. What did you do?
So the first thing I realized was success is not external. It's just not. It's internal. No amount of external validation will do it. It doesn't matter. There's this narrative like, 'Well when I get to the next level I'll feel it or maybe that next level.' But what happened to me was I got to the top of the mountain—where else was there to go?
Astronaut syndrome. I was just like, where? Yeah, where am I going to go from here? And the answer was clear. The only place to go from there was in. Stop going out. Stop seeking this outside. And that was what started my whole quest into meditation and connecting with a spiritual force and having a deeper understanding of the why of everything and kind of decoupling ego from soul, which I think is really an interesting exercise—if your ego lives on this shoulder and your soul lives on that shoulder, every single thing you do every day, it's like which side of the road is it—are we doing this for our ego or are we doing this for our soul, which is our higher good. And the funny thing is these things usually don't like each other. What's good for your soul is often times not good for your ego and vice versa.
What were you doing for your ego and what are you doing now for your soul?
So now I don't do anything for my ego.
That's not true. Like I do beauty stuff I guess for my ego. I'm trying to get my hair healthy and there's all the beauty.
But I feel like that's a personal confidence thing.
Yeah, it is. And I don't think it's an ego thing in the sense that I'm doing it for others. I think it's more of like it fills my cup. It makes me feel better about myself. I don't really do anything out of ego. I say no to a lot of stuff now. Like I don't want to fit in. Don't invite me to the party. Just honestly, don't even invite me. I don't even want to go.
What is that called? It's not JOMO, it's not FOMO. It's just IDWG.
Oh, I don't want to go. IDWG.
No, but you know, here's what I think is so interesting. And you know this, especially with the work that you've done—there's a lot of men and women that'll look at your accomplishments and they dream of having that kind of success and those kind of resources. And what's interesting talking to people like you and others that have been on the show that kind of reach the top of the mountain is I think if you're not solid here to begin with before you get there, no amount of external validation or money or resources or abundance is ever going to solve that.
And what I've noticed personally in our own lives—it's never the end that gives you the satisfaction. It's always the in between in the build. And then what's actually funny is by the time you get to the end, it's a little bit disappointing because you think you build it up and you think it's going to feel a certain way and then it doesn't.
And you're like, well, now what?
Yeah. No, definitely. And to take it a step further—remember my journey is not just like, 'Oh, here we go to the top and stay at the top.' Look at what's happened since then.
Our stock is down 96%. For no reason. Who knows what people trade stock on. But if you think that that's also not a wild feeling—you get to the top of the mountain, then you fall off of the mountain. It's crazy. But here's the cool part. Because when I got to the top, I had this epiphany—'Oh, wait a second. This was never the quest. This was never the journey. The real destination is inner peace and inner validation.' So let's go on that journey and then it makes you a better person in the endeavors that you take in the world because you are operating out of a place of stillness and self-assurance and you're not erratic and you're able to see things clearly. So when our stock tumbled down to nowhere—which by the way, the company is still performing very well. This is a business that makes almost a billion dollars a year. This is a real company. We make a lot of profit. We're a very profitable business, but the stock is just riding. The stock market has just basically written us off as if we're dead. That's a very strange feeling—to just be written off after being the darling of the stock market. These are very polarizing feelings. But here's the magic—because I had spent so much time going inward, healing, self-reflecting, forgiving, and connecting to this inner place of peace and spirituality, I'm not impacted by it. I was more upset internally when I was at the top than I am at the perceived bottom.
Because if you were to just look at me from an outsider's lens right now with where things are measuring us—I have a different measuring stick. That's the biggest differentiator. I've switched out my measuring stick. And I think that is one of the most powerful unlocks for any human being is ask yourself, what is my measuring stick measuring?
As you've grown, why do you think you cared about some of those external validations so much prior to doing the work on yourself?
Seeking love. I think that's what we're all doing as human beings. We are all on this quest to be loved, to be wanted, to be validated, to be needed. And we all have our own wounds. Like we were just saying, each and every one of us has some inner wound of feeling unloved or not worthy of love. And it's so funny that I'm in this business of love—here I was out in the world helping all of these people find love. And really, the person I needed to help find love was myself. But it was love of myself, because I have an amazing husband who you guys would actually really love. He's incredible. He's a cowboy in the rodeo in Aspen all summer every summer.
Oh, we went to the rodeo.
Oh, you did? You probably saw him. He's performing in it. Oh, he's in the rodeo. And my son goes out with him on a pony and they ride out in the rodeo. It's too cute.
Enough talking about him. I don't like when women come on here and talk about really masculine guys. That makes me look—
Enough about that. It's a different thing.
You know what? Podcasting is also a rodeo. It's a version of a rodeo.
I wanted to switch gears with you a little bit. I would feel remiss to not ask you. You've talked about burnout. We were discussing before the show started. There's a lot of miscommunication, misinformation around what it actually takes to build something like you've built. There's this idea of balance. And Scott Galloway was recently on the show and he said, 'Listen, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at once.'
And I think someone like Kim Kardashian got a lot of crap by saying, 'You have to work your ass off.' But I took issue with her getting crap because—
She told the truth. She told the truth and people got upset about it and we went through this weird period of time where everyone was like, 'Tell me everything I want to hear as long as it makes me feel good, but don't tell me how it really is.' For someone who's actually built a billion-dollar, beyond billion-dollar company—what did your life look like as you were doing that and what sacrifices did you actually have to make?
It is all in, all day, all night. There is no mode. There is no off switch. You are on or you are off. And that's the truth. Now, there's a caveat. I think in the era of AI where you have these new tools, we can talk about that in a second, but if we look backwards, for anybody that thinks that I just showed up and put on a yellow suit and said download Bumble and it turned into a billion-dollar company—sorry, that didn't happen.
Like, what did each of your days look like?
Okay. So, I was 25 years old when I started Bumble. Just 25 actually. I probably worked—I would work all day. I would obsess all day. I would be so focused that I actually lost touch with most of my friends. I had a terrible relationship with anyone that was further than five feet from me because I was so focused. I luckily was with my husband who's now my husband through all of it. So he was my rock and he was a really steady person. But listen, I sacrificed everything. My physical health, my mental health, my relationships, my quality of life. I worked all day every day and I never stopped ever. I was probably in fight or flight for—I was 25 when I started it. 2019, we—I had my first child. We sold to Blackstone. We took it public 2021. You know what I would say—this went right until I had my first child and then I was forced.
I mean, as you know, it jolting.
It catapults you into a whole new 24/7 world.
And then, I hope you can talk about this because I sure feel it. You feel guilty.
But then you feel guilty at home because you feel like you should be working. It's a real mind—
It is a real, real, real, real thing.
Yeah. And what also people don't talk about is—maybe some people are listening—but why would you make all those sacrifices? There's a lot of people that are now relying on you performing. Your team members, the people that work for you, your investors, your partners—you can't just be like, 'Hey, I'm just turning off,' because people's livelihoods are now dependent on your performance.
But then you also don't want to be on your phone in front of your kids. I mean, this is how I feel.
I mean, welcome to my world. This is like such a conundrum.
It's hard. I'm like hiding in the bathroom.
Yeah. I feel torn between two worlds most of the time and it's really hard.
The reason I wanted you—it's so hard. Men though are able to switch it off. I notice when he comes home it's like he's in dad mode and when he goes to work he's in work mode. How do you do that?
I'll explain—I don't know if it's a man or a woman thing, but I'll just explain how I rationalize it. I grew up with a mom and a dad who both worked. My mother always worked and that was a normal example for me. I actually think it's helped me with women later because I'm used to seeing that version. That's a gift. She was always that. She still is. The way that I rationalize it is, okay, I have to put food on the table and make a living to build resources for the family and this is just what it is. I could not do that and then maybe some of those things are sacrificed, but rationally I'm like this is just what it's like, input output. I miss the kids. I want to be with them more. Obviously I want to spend as much time, but I think I'm able to just kind of—I think a lot of men are able to just say like this is what you're supposed to do.
Gender dynamics are obviously switching.
Gender dynamics are a big deal though because I think we do carry a lot of—
It's heavy. Listen, until the last, you know, 100 or so years, there was very few women in the workplace compared to there are now. There was definitely much fewer women that were leading organizations and building and being the CEOs and the founders.
And so maybe from an evolutionary perspective, men have—the dynamic has been like men go to work, women—
So, you know, maybe we got rid of the guilt generations ago. I don't know.
Perhaps. I also think there's one distinction. I'm curious if you agree with me or not. And I don't say this in a way that men don't care. That's not what I mean. Men do care. And I adore and cherish my boys, my husband. I think men are—there's nothing negative in this statement. I believe that women are so deeply nurturing and caring and thoughtful inherently that when we care so much at work, we can't just leave it at the door. When we care so much at home, we can't just leave it at home. I just think we are deeply, deeply caring, sensitive. And I don't mean that in a women are sensitive and men are not way. I just think there is this inherent nature to care and to put our everything into what we do. Men do the same. But for me, it's just every mom I know and every father I know—they all love their children equally. There's no distinction. I believe that you two both fundamentally love your children the same. There is something about a mom that just feels this need to be present. And it's like this energetic presence that is different.
It's just 100% different. We take our kids on walks all the time and sometimes Lauren will start the walk without me and she'll meet me in the neighborhood and I'll go and when I'm not there it's different—when I'm there they behave different. There's an energy that children react—I'm sure you see this with your husband—I don't know how to explain it but I think—
Children recognize that energy.
Yeah. With how hard you've worked and how intense you've worked and having children. What have you done that has helped you balance that out? And I don't want to even use the word balance because I don't think there's a lot of balance, but what has helped and alleviated?
I see Bumble as one of my children.
That's a good way to look at it.
And that's really helped me because if I treat Bumble as this obligation or this stress or this thing that I'm sacrificing for my babies, I'm going to hate it and I'm going to stop doing it. And that's not really what I want. I love my job. I love my career. I thrive helping build products that can change people's lives. I just treat Bumble like one of my children. And okay, I'm with this child right now and now I'm with that child. And I just love what Bumble stands for in the world. And I'm also a deeply purpose-driven human. I think what you do in the world changes things. It really impacts people for the better. And so when you can see that there's selflessness also in what you're doing and you're not just plugging away in a way that you hate or you feel unfulfilled, I think it can change the game. And so I always tell my mom friends this. I have an equal amount of working mother friends as I do non. Every mother's working, let's be clear. I have an equal amount of moms with two careers, which is one raising their children and one working doing something else, and ones that just choose to exclusively raise their children, which I think both are excellent choices. But the ones that hate their job, I'm like, you need to stop. Don't sacrifice. Unless you love it, switch it. Do something different. I'm not saying quit and give up on a career, but you need to find a career you love. And I think this is the beauty of having children. It makes you more intentional.
I think when you have kids, time starts mattering in a way that it didn't matter before and you stop doing the like, I'll stick it out for another year or I'll see how I feel in two years or I'll get a drink with you even though I don't know you that well.
Yeah. Or like this does nothing to enhance the world, myself, my family, or my life. I'm going to say no. I always say I have capacity for a certain amount right now and my kids fill a huge bucket of that and my business fills some and my husband, and you have a little bit of capacity left and you have to figure out where you want to deploy that and that's the season that I'm in. And some friends don't understand that and they fall off. They don't understand having three kids under six and I empathize with that but you only have a little bit of capacity left and you have to be strategic with where you allocate that.
So true. Emma Greed came on and gave us some good advice and she was basically talking about this and around guilt and the way she describes is like she loves her work and loves what she does and when she talks to her children she says I love that I get to go and she said it changed the way the kids view it because before it was like oh I got to go to work and it's this thing and to your point if you hate it then your kids look at like why are you going to do something you hate. You're choosing something you hate over me, right? But if they're like hey I love it and it's a thing I get to go do and I'm passionate about the kids are like oh great go have fun.
Emma's incredible, by the way. I mean, she definitely has more hours in the day than I do. I don't know how she does it all. She's amazing. But I agree. And you know, I love that you grew up with a mother that was working. And I think for me, I'm very proud that I can talk to my children about what I do and how I contribute to the world outside of their lives. But, you know, it's like different strokes for different folks. I judge no one. It's just this is where I am now. But remember, I stepped away from CEO. I hired a CEO.
I want you to talk about that.
Before that, I just want to tell you though real quick like if it means something for your boys, I think later in life, they will appreciate what you do. And it'll change their dynamic with strong women. And I'll speak more specifically. A lot of men and I could say this because I'm a man. A lot of men get really threatened by strong women, big personalities and strong viewpoints. Some men get even more threatened by women that may be the breadwinners or make a big living. I think for your boys, they're not going to experience that dynamic and they're gonna be okay, right? Because the reality is a lot of young men are going to enter the workforce and if you even just look at the data, a lot of women are doing better financially and are starting to do more and a lot of guys are struggling with that. I think it's actually part of some of the imbalance in the dating world which you probably know more about.
