CEOInterviews.AIBumble Founder Whitney Wolfe Herd: Billionaire, Burnout & Redefining Success

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Narrator0:01

Welcome to the Bostics, starring Lauren Bostik and Michael Bostik. Together, they are the Bostics.

L

Lauren Bostik0:15

Okay, let's get the lay of the land. We were talking off air about you as a mother. I feel like you're asked so many business questions all the time, and we'll get to that. Three kids. What is life really like for you behind the scenes with three kids? Forget about the business for a second. And as a wife, probably what it's like for you, I would imagine.

W

Whitney Herd0:32

So, I have three kids, two boys, and it's a hybrid of like a wrestling match at my house all day long. I literally have never met anything in my life with more energy than two brothers. It's unbelievable. And now I have a new baby girl, so that has brought like so much harmony and peace. But my babies are everything. Like, they are my number one. I'm obsessed with them. I love being a mom. I just I mean, I'm sure it's the same way you feel. It's just like they the best.

L

Lauren Bostik1:06

It's the best.

M

Michael Bostik1:07

It is the absolute best. But we're not at the stage because we went girl, boy, boy, and our youngest is only seven. So we haven't like our middle is a ton of energy, but we haven't experienced the two brother energy yet. It's coming.

L

Lauren Bostik1:18

Everyone that has two boys is buckle up.

W

Whitney Herd1:22

What kind of little girl were you when you were growing up?

L

Lauren Bostik1:25

Calm and creative. I would like sit on the ground and draw all day long, like very calm.

W

Whitney Herd1:30

You weren't set up to be entrepreneurial.

L

Lauren Bostik1:35

Well, I don't know about that because I do think every entrepreneur is inherently imaginative or creative. I mean, that's kind of the foundation of being an entrepreneur. You're a dreamer, right? And all I wanted to do was kind of build these little imaginary worlds and draw them or bring them to life through art. And so I do feel like I had an entrepreneurial kind of capacity. I was always obsessed with creating things. I don't know if it was meant to be in business or not, but I loved to make things and build things and create things.

W

Whitney Herd2:13

With your own kids now, are you like leaning into that for them?

L

Lauren Bostik2:18

Kind of actually. So it's funny. My son was begging me for a job because he wanted to save $200. I'm very anti-technology for kids. Super scared of it. It terrifies me. But he wanted this kid-friendly thing—it basically only calls mom and dad and 911. Anyway, he wanted to make $200. So I've been trying to show him what money is and how it works and how hard it is to earn money. He was begging for a job, and so over the summer we got him this little fake job as a beach lifeguard helper when we were on a trip, and they paid him in coconuts. He was like, 'This isn't money. What am I going to do with this? I can't do anything.' I was like, 'Well, let's turn the coconuts into a business.' So we painted the coconuts and called it Crazy for Coconuts. He put a sign out and had the coconuts for sale for like $6, but if he wanted a custom coconut, it could be $12. Friends and family were saying, 'Okay, I want a coconut with this on it.' He would go and design it, and he started to learn how do you make money. So I'm trying to teach him. He's only six, but I'm trying to instill this imaginative, if you want it, make it, build it, solve it mindset.

W

Whitney Herd3:40

Yeah. And well, like also from as an entrepreneur, you kind of are able to look at things that others may not see the opportunity in. To your point with the coconuts, there's an opportunity here if you're clever enough.

M

Michael Bostik3:50

Exactly. That's exactly right. And I wanted him to take that away. It's like, someone gave me a coconut, which is such a good metaphor in life. You know, you feel like you're handed coconuts all day long. Like, ugh, I don't want this coconut. Whatever that might be in life. I love to turn straw into gold. That is my favorite thing to do—hand it to me, it might look like nothing, but I love to find the opportunity in things. And I feel like that's honestly probably how I've built my career, is just seeing the light and looking for the cracks of opportunity in moments that didn't present themselves that way.

W

Whitney Herd4:29

When was the first moment you remember doing something like that where you were like there was a light bulb and you said, 'Ah, I can turn something into gold'?

L

Lauren Bostik4:35

In college I started a business. I just wanted to find a way to kind of create change but also build or do something. I was part of the sorority, which it's so funny—when I was in the sorority I felt like they hated me because I was a bad sorority person. The parking tickets, the absences—I never went to chapter. I'm pretty sure they threatened to denounce me from the sorority, Kappa. Now I think they like me. My picture's still on the wall somewhere. I've been reclaimed, so that's good. But I started this silly little company in college—bamboo tote bags. They were made out of bamboo fibers, something environmentally friendly, and I put art on it. I was selling them around campus to try to raise money for the animals in the BP oil spill. Who knows how or why I arrived there as an 18, 19-year-old, but that was one moment of me just trying to hustle. Then I learned how to do the little Facebook ads and I went from there.

W

Whitney Herd5:48

You're really a creative strategist.

L

Lauren Bostik5:51

Maybe. I think I'm just really hyperfunctioning and have to put my energy into things at all times.

W

Whitney Herd6:02

You seem like—I feel like I relate to you ever since I listened to you on what's the podcast about the founders?

M

Michael Bostik6:11

How I Built This.

W

Whitney Herd6:12

How I Built This. I feel like I relate to you because it seems like you bring an intensity to your work. I feel like I'm very intense at work, but how do you channel that when you're at home? Is there an intense schedule? Are you intense about being present? Is it in your calendar or are you more lax?

L

Lauren Bostik6:28

So first of all, I'm trying to be more like you. I saw your AI calendar that you built.

W

Whitney Herd6:33

I try. Listen, that's after 10 years of trial and error. I've always been like that.

L

Lauren Bostik6:39

Well, it's amazing. Oh, and by the way, I order all the stuff that you—I have like a shift wave chair sitting in my room. I don't even know how to set it up.

W

Whitney Herd6:46

Oh my god. But I'm going to text you the best one.

L

Lauren Bostik6:48

Is it good?

W

Whitney Herd6:48

It's so good.

L

Lauren Bostik6:49

Okay. It vibrates you.

W

Whitney Herd6:51

Okay. So, I need to—

L

Lauren Bostik6:52

It's supposed to be good for your nervous system and your HRV.

W

Whitney Herd6:54

You will love it. I heard you on that podcast. I've heard you on other podcasts. You will love it because it changes your state.

L

Lauren Bostik7:03

Great. I need that. We need that.

W

Whitney Herd7:06

Yes, I'm very intense at work. But here's how I would describe myself. I was the student who either got an A or got a D. If I'm uninterested in something, it's just not going to happen. I cannot fake it. I cannot halfway something. I'm either 100% in or I'm just completely out. If I love it, if I'm passionate, if I care about it, you're going to get the sun, the moon, the stars, and the sky. I will go 100 million percent at something. But if I'm not into it, I'm not going to give it even an ounce of energy. I think I've found a career that I genuinely love. I love connecting people. I love helping people find love. I love bringing people together. It's genuinely my passion. Even outside of Bumble, I love to bring my friends together or be like, 'You need to meet this person.' I like to connect people. And so because I care, I'm going to do a great job at it. This is how I am with my house. Designing a home—I am technically OCD. I've been diagnosed with OCD. So I'm very particular—devil's in the details.

Tell me about that. What's the OCD? Is it like making sure the labels are out? What do we have?

L

Lauren Bostik8:34

So I'm OCD about a few things. One, I'm completely neurotic and weird about SHOES IN A HOUSE.

W

Whitney Herd8:41

Is that OCD?

L

Lauren Bostik8:42

Well, no, but I'll take it to a different level. I'll hold a grudge if someone comes into my house with shoes on.

W

Whitney Herd8:48

I can't even have a conversation with someone if they had their shoes on in my house. I like will start—

L

Lauren Bostik8:57

So, what do you do when you say shoes off?

W

Whitney Herd8:59

Oh, no. There are no shoes in our house.

L

Lauren Bostik9:00

No shoes.

W

Whitney Herd9:01

No, you can't wear shoes inside—

L

Lauren Bostik9:02

With your fecal matter shoes. Exactly. You stepped on a heroin needle outside and then you want to walk in the house and then the baby's crawling on the floor when I was skipping around in heroin needles. I forgot about that. Yeah.

W

Whitney Herd9:14

No, but seriously, it's—

L

Lauren Bostik9:16

It's on the asphalt.

W

Whitney Herd9:17

It's a no.

M

Michael Bostik9:17

Well, listen. We don't live in LA anymore. We're not seeing LA. I'm just kidding, guys. Actually, I'm not. It's true.

W

Whitney Herd9:23

So, I'm super OCD about that, but I could also obsess over the lining of something if it's off. I fixate on things. But then that also has a downside. There's a positive because if I set my mind to it, I will do it. If I say I will get this done and I will build this thing and I will make it work, I will make it work. But the problem is if I get in a negative loop, it really carries you off. I'm super hypochondriac. So if I get on a loop about a health thing, I cannot get off the loop. That's been a problem for me.

L

Lauren Bostik10:01

So you ruminate on it.

W

Whitney Herd10:03

Yes.

L

Lauren Bostik10:03

So if you think that you have some kind of ailment even if you don't, it's almost like you get stuck in such a way that you can't stop thinking about it and it drives you insane.

W

Whitney Herd10:15

Yep. It used to, and then I started meditating.

L

Lauren Bostik10:18

TM?

W

Whitney Herd10:19

Okay. Did you do training for that or you just—

L

Lauren Bostik10:21

Bob Roth.

W

Whitney Herd10:22

Okay.

L

Lauren Bostik10:22

Oh, I got to look him up. Changed my life.

W

Whitney Herd10:25

You don't know Bob Roth?

L

Lauren Bostik10:26

No. Should he come on the show?

W

Whitney Herd10:27

I know who he is.

L

Lauren Bostik10:28

Immediately. Okay. Bob is spectacular. He is—you know, I was that type of person. I don't know how y'all are, but I was convinced that meditation was just not for me. I was like, 'Oh, no. I'm too high functioning for that. I can't meditate.' And he came and did this 4-day session with me. It took a couple times. The first I was like, 'What? Okay, I got to go, all the lists.' And then the second day it was transcendent. And it is a game-changer for me.

W

Whitney Herd11:03

Meditation has been huge. Spirituality—not religious, and no knocking on religion. Be whatever you want to be in this world, but believing in like higher power, coincidence. You know who you need to have on is Laura Lynn Jackson.

L

Lauren Bostik11:18

Who's that?

W

Whitney Herd11:18

Oh my god. Okay, I'll introduce you to Zusa.

L

Lauren Bostik11:21

Give me Zusa.

W

Whitney Herd11:22

The facialist. We'll trade all these things. But Laura Lynn Jackson changed my life. She wrote the book Signs. Have you read the book Signs?

L

Lauren Bostik11:28

I just bought that.

W

Whitney Herd11:30

Okay, read the book.

L

Lauren Bostik11:31

Okay, we're ready.

W

Whitney Herd11:33

I'm going to set you up with her. You need to do a session with her. It's going to change your life.

L

Lauren Bostik11:39

Okay. Can't wait. That's a sign.

W

Whitney Herd11:41

Yep. That's a sign. Having a spiritual connection and meditating have been my two like godsends.

M

Michael Bostik11:49

I think—as you're talking, I wonder if you relate to this. I don't not think meditation is wrong. I know it could be, and I know other things as well. But what happens is I'm like, 'Okay, I got to accomplish a few things to get through a few things and then I will focus on that at some point.' I know I need to do it but I sometimes don't put it at the forefront and make it a priority. I kind of just grit the teeth and go through it.

W

Whitney Herd12:24

Okay. If I were you, I would call Bob Roth.

L

Lauren Bostik12:27

Okay, give me his number.

W

Whitney Herd12:28

I will.

M

Michael Bostik12:29

Carson, put this down for me.

W

Whitney Herd12:30

So, I got him into cranial sacral, which is my favorite thing.

L

Lauren Bostik12:32

That's great.

W

Whitney Herd12:34

I feel like you've done cranial sacral.

L

Lauren Bostik12:38

Okay, so I love it.

W

Whitney Herd12:40

The cranial sacral doctor, Dr. Maria in Austin. She's amazing. Told him that he's blocked.

M

Michael Bostik12:47

He can't get in to the dungeon.

L

Lauren Bostik12:50

Well, I think that—

W

Whitney Herd12:52

What's blocking you?

M

Michael Bostik12:53

Um—

W

Whitney Herd12:54

Oh, she's going to interview you. Yeah, let's get to the root of this.

M

Michael Bostik12:57

Well, I think—listen, I think how you become what you become in life, what you're driven by—what drives you is not always what serves you in the long run, right? And so, you know, I think a lot of people that are maybe type A or driven personalities or people that want to accomplish—there's probably some skeletons in the closet. That's like what the driving force is. You probably know better than most. And I think I did a good job of pushing a lot of things down for a long time and probably still do. And so when she says blocked, I think she's just like I'm not as open to others. So what I mean by there's probably some things I need to work through is like I'm aware that there's things I need to get out, but I just haven't done it yet.

L

Lauren Bostik13:43

You haven't done it. And you're like, 'I'm too busy. I'll do this later.'

M

Michael Bostik13:46

Yeah. And the problem is I know at some point. But what I do is I go, go and then I crash and burn.

L

Lauren Bostik13:52

And we were talking off air—you now got to a place which we should talk about. You take breaks.

M

Michael Bostik13:56

I am very much a go, go, go till the wheels fall off and then crash and then recover.

W

Whitney Herd14:02

What did burnout look like specifically? Eat, feel—give us the whole shebang of what the burnout for you looked like? Was it a day? Was it a year?

M

Michael Bostik14:15

You know, I think my lowest point was the IPO, which is funny because to the outside world, we IPOed at a $16 billion valuation or something ridiculous. I was 31. They had shut the whole street down to turn the office—

L

Lauren Bostik14:36

The first woman—the youngest woman to take a company public, all this.

M

Michael Bostik14:40

All yeah. But so what? That was my realization—on paper, I'm all over the internet. I'm the youngest this, I'm the that, I'm now a self-made billionaire on paper. These are the things that you think for a decade are going to make you feel something worthy or enough or accepted or validated. And I think this was this mountain I was climbing for so long. When I got there, after the IPO I just broke down and sobbed. I felt so—I just felt empty. And I had my beautiful baby with me, my firstborn, Bobby, my husband was there. I had it all but I was empty.

L

Lauren Bostik15:43

And I think I was empty for a couple reasons. The first reason was I had burnt myself to the ground. I was waking up at 3:00 in the morning to breastfeed my child and then going back to sleep a little bit, watching them monitor all night, and then getting on these pre-IPO leadup calls. It took almost a year to prep for all of this. I just had this baby and right when I come out of having the baby, we had closed our Blackstone deal and then shortly thereafter we started prepping to go public. It was like a marathon while entering into new motherhood. I just zapped myself. I depleted myself of everything. It was the worst time of my life. I didn't even know which way was up or down. I think I had postpartum depression, which I didn't know what that was. And I felt guilty for having it because I was like, 'I have childcare and my baby's healthy.' There's all these feelings of you don't deserve or you're not allowed to feel these ways because you have it so much better than others. There's this narrative of I don't have permission to feel this way and so much pressure put on myself. The IPO on paper to the world was my wealthiest, most fruitful, most successful moment, and I was just completely empty inside. It was just dark.

W

Whitney Herd17:14

So what did you do to rejuvenate yourself? What are the steps that you took? Because maybe someone's listening right now and they feel the same way. They feel empty. What did you do?

M

Michael Bostik17:24

So the first thing I realized was success is not external. It's just not. It's internal. No amount of external validation will do it. It doesn't matter. There's this narrative like, 'Well when I get to the next level I'll feel it or maybe that next level.' But what happened to me was I got to the top of the mountain—where else was there to go?

L

Lauren Bostik17:51

Right.

M

Michael Bostik17:52

Astronaut syndrome. I was just like, where? Yeah, where am I going to go from here? And the answer was clear. The only place to go from there was in. Stop going out. Stop seeking this outside. And that was what started my whole quest into meditation and connecting with a spiritual force and having a deeper understanding of the why of everything and kind of decoupling ego from soul, which I think is really an interesting exercise—if your ego lives on this shoulder and your soul lives on that shoulder, every single thing you do every day, it's like which side of the road is it—are we doing this for our ego or are we doing this for our soul, which is our higher good. And the funny thing is these things usually don't like each other. What's good for your soul is often times not good for your ego and vice versa.

L

Lauren Bostik18:50

What were you doing for your ego and what are you doing now for your soul?

M

Michael Bostik18:54

So now I don't do anything for my ego.

L

Lauren Bostik18:56

Nothing? Nope?

M

Michael Bostik18:57

What do you—what do you—

W

Whitney Herd18:59

That's not true. Like I do beauty stuff I guess for my ego. I'm trying to get my hair healthy and there's all the beauty.

L

Lauren Bostik19:08

But I feel like that's a personal confidence thing.

W

Whitney Herd19:10

Yeah, it is. And I don't think it's an ego thing in the sense that I'm doing it for others. I think it's more of like it fills my cup. It makes me feel better about myself. I don't really do anything out of ego. I say no to a lot of stuff now. Like I don't want to fit in. Don't invite me to the party. Just honestly, don't even invite me. I don't even want to go.

L

Lauren Bostik19:29

Same.

M

Michael Bostik19:30

What is that called? It's not JOMO, it's not FOMO. It's just IDWG.

L

Lauren Bostik19:39

Oh, I don't want to go. IDWG.

M

Michael Bostik19:42

No, but you know, here's what I think is so interesting. And you know this, especially with the work that you've done—there's a lot of men and women that'll look at your accomplishments and they dream of having that kind of success and those kind of resources. And what's interesting talking to people like you and others that have been on the show that kind of reach the top of the mountain is I think if you're not solid here to begin with before you get there, no amount of external validation or money or resources or abundance is ever going to solve that.

W

Whitney Herd20:15

No chance.

M

Michael Bostik20:16

And what I've noticed personally in our own lives—it's never the end that gives you the satisfaction. It's always the in between in the build. And then what's actually funny is by the time you get to the end, it's a little bit disappointing because you think you build it up and you think it's going to feel a certain way and then it doesn't.

L

Lauren Bostik20:34

And you're like, well, now what?

M

Michael Bostik20:35

Yeah. No, definitely. And to take it a step further—remember my journey is not just like, 'Oh, here we go to the top and stay at the top.' Look at what's happened since then.

L

Lauren Bostik20:48

Yep.

M

Michael Bostik20:48

Our stock is down 96%. For no reason. Who knows what people trade stock on. But if you think that that's also not a wild feeling—you get to the top of the mountain, then you fall off of the mountain. It's crazy. But here's the cool part. Because when I got to the top, I had this epiphany—'Oh, wait a second. This was never the quest. This was never the journey. The real destination is inner peace and inner validation.' So let's go on that journey and then it makes you a better person in the endeavors that you take in the world because you are operating out of a place of stillness and self-assurance and you're not erratic and you're able to see things clearly. So when our stock tumbled down to nowhere—which by the way, the company is still performing very well. This is a business that makes almost a billion dollars a year. This is a real company. We make a lot of profit. We're a very profitable business, but the stock is just riding. The stock market has just basically written us off as if we're dead. That's a very strange feeling—to just be written off after being the darling of the stock market. These are very polarizing feelings. But here's the magic—because I had spent so much time going inward, healing, self-reflecting, forgiving, and connecting to this inner place of peace and spirituality, I'm not impacted by it. I was more upset internally when I was at the top than I am at the perceived bottom.

L

Lauren Bostik22:56

Mhm.

M

Michael Bostik22:57

Because if you were to just look at me from an outsider's lens right now with where things are measuring us—I have a different measuring stick. That's the biggest differentiator. I've switched out my measuring stick. And I think that is one of the most powerful unlocks for any human being is ask yourself, what is my measuring stick measuring?

W

Whitney Herd23:17

As you've grown, why do you think you cared about some of those external validations so much prior to doing the work on yourself?

M

Michael Bostik23:25

Seeking love. I think that's what we're all doing as human beings. We are all on this quest to be loved, to be wanted, to be validated, to be needed. And we all have our own wounds. Like we were just saying, each and every one of us has some inner wound of feeling unloved or not worthy of love. And it's so funny that I'm in this business of love—here I was out in the world helping all of these people find love. And really, the person I needed to help find love was myself. But it was love of myself, because I have an amazing husband who you guys would actually really love. He's incredible. He's a cowboy in the rodeo in Aspen all summer every summer.

L

Lauren Bostik24:16

Oh, we went to the rodeo.

M

Michael Bostik24:16

Oh, you did? You probably saw him. He's performing in it. Oh, he's in the rodeo. And my son goes out with him on a pony and they ride out in the rodeo. It's too cute.

L

Lauren Bostik24:28

Enough talking about him. I don't like when women come on here and talk about really masculine guys. That makes me look—

W

Whitney Herd24:32

That's hot. The rodeo.

L

Lauren Bostik24:34

Enough about that. It's a different thing.

W

Whitney Herd24:36

That's hot.

M

Michael Bostik24:36

I'm a podcaster.

W

Whitney Herd24:38

You know what? Podcasting is also a rodeo. It's a version of a rodeo.

M

Michael Bostik24:41

I wanted to switch gears with you a little bit. I would feel remiss to not ask you. You've talked about burnout. We were discussing before the show started. There's a lot of miscommunication, misinformation around what it actually takes to build something like you've built. There's this idea of balance. And Scott Galloway was recently on the show and he said, 'Listen, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at once.'

W

Whitney Herd25:07

Amen.

M

Michael Bostik25:08

And I think someone like Kim Kardashian got a lot of crap by saying, 'You have to work your ass off.' But I took issue with her getting crap because—

W

Whitney Herd25:16

It's the truth.

M

Michael Bostik25:18

She told the truth. She told the truth and people got upset about it and we went through this weird period of time where everyone was like, 'Tell me everything I want to hear as long as it makes me feel good, but don't tell me how it really is.' For someone who's actually built a billion-dollar, beyond billion-dollar company—what did your life look like as you were doing that and what sacrifices did you actually have to make?

W

Whitney Herd25:39

It is all in, all day, all night. There is no mode. There is no off switch. You are on or you are off. And that's the truth. Now, there's a caveat. I think in the era of AI where you have these new tools, we can talk about that in a second, but if we look backwards, for anybody that thinks that I just showed up and put on a yellow suit and said download Bumble and it turned into a billion-dollar company—sorry, that didn't happen.

L

Lauren Bostik26:15

Like, what did each of your days look like?

W

Whitney Herd26:19

Okay. So, I was 25 years old when I started Bumble. Just 25 actually. I probably worked—I would work all day. I would obsess all day. I would be so focused that I actually lost touch with most of my friends. I had a terrible relationship with anyone that was further than five feet from me because I was so focused. I luckily was with my husband who's now my husband through all of it. So he was my rock and he was a really steady person. But listen, I sacrificed everything. My physical health, my mental health, my relationships, my quality of life. I worked all day every day and I never stopped ever. I was probably in fight or flight for—I was 25 when I started it. 2019, we—I had my first child. We sold to Blackstone. We took it public 2021. You know what I would say—this went right until I had my first child and then I was forced.

M

Michael Bostik27:33

I mean, as you know, it jolting.

L

Lauren Bostik27:36

It catapults you into a whole new 24/7 world.

W

Whitney Herd27:41

And then, I hope you can talk about this because I sure feel it. You feel guilty.

M

Michael Bostik27:47

Mhm.

W

Whitney Herd27:48

At work.

M

Michael Bostik27:48

Oh, yeah.

W

Whitney Herd27:49

But then you feel guilty at home because you feel like you should be working. It's a real mind—

M

Michael Bostik27:56

It is a real, real, real, real thing.

L

Lauren Bostik28:00

Yeah. And what also people don't talk about is—maybe some people are listening—but why would you make all those sacrifices? There's a lot of people that are now relying on you performing. Your team members, the people that work for you, your investors, your partners—you can't just be like, 'Hey, I'm just turning off,' because people's livelihoods are now dependent on your performance.

W

Whitney Herd28:19

But then you also don't want to be on your phone in front of your kids. I mean, this is how I feel.

M

Michael Bostik28:22

I mean, welcome to my world. This is like such a conundrum.

W

Whitney Herd28:25

It's hard. I'm like hiding in the bathroom.

M

Michael Bostik28:27

Yeah. I feel torn between two worlds most of the time and it's really hard.

W

Whitney Herd28:32

The reason I wanted you—it's so hard. Men though are able to switch it off. I notice when he comes home it's like he's in dad mode and when he goes to work he's in work mode. How do you do that?

M

Michael Bostik28:44

I'll explain—I don't know if it's a man or a woman thing, but I'll just explain how I rationalize it. I grew up with a mom and a dad who both worked. My mother always worked and that was a normal example for me. I actually think it's helped me with women later because I'm used to seeing that version. That's a gift. She was always that. She still is. The way that I rationalize it is, okay, I have to put food on the table and make a living to build resources for the family and this is just what it is. I could not do that and then maybe some of those things are sacrificed, but rationally I'm like this is just what it's like, input output. I miss the kids. I want to be with them more. Obviously I want to spend as much time, but I think I'm able to just kind of—I think a lot of men are able to just say like this is what you're supposed to do.

L

Lauren Bostik29:31

Yeah.

W

Whitney Herd29:32

Gender dynamics are obviously switching.

M

Michael Bostik29:34

Gender dynamics are a big deal though because I think we do carry a lot of—

L

Lauren Bostik29:39

This guilt is insane.

W

Whitney Herd29:42

It's heavy. Listen, until the last, you know, 100 or so years, there was very few women in the workplace compared to there are now. There was definitely much fewer women that were leading organizations and building and being the CEOs and the founders.

L

Lauren Bostik29:59

And so maybe from an evolutionary perspective, men have—the dynamic has been like men go to work, women—

W

Whitney Herd30:05

That's very real.

L

Lauren Bostik30:06

So, you know, maybe we got rid of the guilt generations ago. I don't know.

M

Michael Bostik30:09

Perhaps. I also think there's one distinction. I'm curious if you agree with me or not. And I don't say this in a way that men don't care. That's not what I mean. Men do care. And I adore and cherish my boys, my husband. I think men are—there's nothing negative in this statement. I believe that women are so deeply nurturing and caring and thoughtful inherently that when we care so much at work, we can't just leave it at the door. When we care so much at home, we can't just leave it at home. I just think we are deeply, deeply caring, sensitive. And I don't mean that in a women are sensitive and men are not way. I just think there is this inherent nature to care and to put our everything into what we do. Men do the same. But for me, it's just every mom I know and every father I know—they all love their children equally. There's no distinction. I believe that you two both fundamentally love your children the same. There is something about a mom that just feels this need to be present. And it's like this energetic presence that is different.

W

Whitney Herd31:28

It's just 100% different. We take our kids on walks all the time and sometimes Lauren will start the walk without me and she'll meet me in the neighborhood and I'll go and when I'm not there it's different—when I'm there they behave different. There's an energy that children react—I'm sure you see this with your husband—I don't know how to explain it but I think—

Children recognize that energy.

M

Michael Bostik31:48

Yeah. With how hard you've worked and how intense you've worked and having children. What have you done that has helped you balance that out? And I don't want to even use the word balance because I don't think there's a lot of balance, but what has helped and alleviated?

W

Whitney Herd32:05

I see Bumble as one of my children.

L

Lauren Bostik32:07

That's a good way to look at it.

W

Whitney Herd32:08

And that's really helped me because if I treat Bumble as this obligation or this stress or this thing that I'm sacrificing for my babies, I'm going to hate it and I'm going to stop doing it. And that's not really what I want. I love my job. I love my career. I thrive helping build products that can change people's lives. I just treat Bumble like one of my children. And okay, I'm with this child right now and now I'm with that child. And I just love what Bumble stands for in the world. And I'm also a deeply purpose-driven human. I think what you do in the world changes things. It really impacts people for the better. And so when you can see that there's selflessness also in what you're doing and you're not just plugging away in a way that you hate or you feel unfulfilled, I think it can change the game. And so I always tell my mom friends this. I have an equal amount of working mother friends as I do non. Every mother's working, let's be clear. I have an equal amount of moms with two careers, which is one raising their children and one working doing something else, and ones that just choose to exclusively raise their children, which I think both are excellent choices. But the ones that hate their job, I'm like, you need to stop. Don't sacrifice. Unless you love it, switch it. Do something different. I'm not saying quit and give up on a career, but you need to find a career you love. And I think this is the beauty of having children. It makes you more intentional.

L

Lauren Bostik33:48

I think when you have kids, time starts mattering in a way that it didn't matter before and you stop doing the like, I'll stick it out for another year or I'll see how I feel in two years or I'll get a drink with you even though I don't know you that well.

W

Whitney Herd34:00

Yeah. Or like this does nothing to enhance the world, myself, my family, or my life. I'm going to say no. I always say I have capacity for a certain amount right now and my kids fill a huge bucket of that and my business fills some and my husband, and you have a little bit of capacity left and you have to figure out where you want to deploy that and that's the season that I'm in. And some friends don't understand that and they fall off. They don't understand having three kids under six and I empathize with that but you only have a little bit of capacity left and you have to be strategic with where you allocate that.

L

Lauren Bostik34:39

So true. Emma Greed came on and gave us some good advice and she was basically talking about this and around guilt and the way she describes is like she loves her work and loves what she does and when she talks to her children she says I love that I get to go and she said it changed the way the kids view it because before it was like oh I got to go to work and it's this thing and to your point if you hate it then your kids look at like why are you going to do something you hate. You're choosing something you hate over me, right? But if they're like hey I love it and it's a thing I get to go do and I'm passionate about the kids are like oh great go have fun.

W

Whitney Herd35:06

Emma's incredible, by the way. I mean, she definitely has more hours in the day than I do. I don't know how she does it all. She's amazing. But I agree. And you know, I love that you grew up with a mother that was working. And I think for me, I'm very proud that I can talk to my children about what I do and how I contribute to the world outside of their lives. But, you know, it's like different strokes for different folks. I judge no one. It's just this is where I am now. But remember, I stepped away from CEO. I hired a CEO.

L

Lauren Bostik35:42

I want you to talk about that.

M

Michael Bostik35:43

Before that, I just want to tell you though real quick like if it means something for your boys, I think later in life, they will appreciate what you do. And it'll change their dynamic with strong women. And I'll speak more specifically. A lot of men and I could say this because I'm a man. A lot of men get really threatened by strong women, big personalities and strong viewpoints. Some men get even more threatened by women that may be the breadwinners or make a big living. I think for your boys, they're not going to experience that dynamic and they're gonna be okay, right? Because the reality is a lot of young men are going to enter the workforce and if you even just look at the data, a lot of women are doing better financially and are starting to do more and a lot of guys are struggling with that. I think it's actually part of some of the imbalance in the dating world which you probably know more about.

W

Whitney Herd36:35

Oh, for sure. For sure.

M

Michael Bostik36:36

But for your boys, I think the example will be good and later as they get around more women that are strong, they'll be more comfortable with it.

W

Whitney Herd36:45

No, absolutely. And I'm fortunate that I married someone with that mindset. So, it's actually kind of a crazy story. In college, my mentor was this woman who was my professor. She was the most badass woman I had ever met in my life. I was both scared of her and in awe of her and just enamored by her. And she just took no crap from anyone. She was strong, self-assured, confident, brilliant, amazing. And I had this insane phobia of public speaking. I would never in my life have been able to do this. And one day all of a sudden it turns out that her class is judged on the ability to present in front of the class. That's how you get your grade. So I went and got a doctor's note obviously. And I was like, 'No, I can't. I'm too scared. I have a phobia. I have a clinical reason not to.' She ripped it up and she was like, 'Oh, girlfriend, no. No, you're going to do this. You're going to be fine.' Fast forward. Turns out she's now my mother-in-law.

M

Michael Bostik37:54

No way.

W

Whitney Herd37:54

Yep. So, years later, I meet her son who's been raised by this unbelievable woman. And he invites me to dinner, to a group dinner. I walk in, she's across the table. I look at him, I go, 'Why is Professor Herd here?' He goes, 'Professor, that's my mom.' And she goes, 'Whitney Wolf with the good eyebrows.' And I was like, 'Oh my god, what is happening right now?' So that is the grandmother to my babies.

L

Lauren Bostik38:25

Oh my god, that gave me chills.

W

Whitney Herd38:26

Yeah, she's like the most powerful, badass, cool...

L

Lauren Bostik38:28

Did you pass the class?

W

Whitney Herd38:32

Yeah, but Michael, so my mother-in-law is a gay woman, and so Michael always teases me that she gave every blonde an A. And I was like, you know what? I deserve...

L

Lauren Bostik38:42

She did say I had good eyebrows.

W

Whitney Herd38:43

She did say I had good eyebrows. So, no, but she said I deserved it. I deserve the A. So, she's amazing. She's maybe the coolest person I've ever met in my life. And to have such a force of nature like that in my life, this person that's now the grandmother to my children, is such a gift. And I had no idea she even had a son. So, it was kind of amazing. But to your point, like he was raised by that. So, he respects me. He respects strong women. The more powerful I become, the more he admires me. And that was never the case I ever saw with men prior. Like any sense of power or any sense of strength was such a threat to them.

M

Michael Bostik39:34

I would go as far to say it's a turnoff.

W

Whitney Herd39:36

Yes. I remember before Michael, I never got approached by anyone. Oh, we both have Michaels, by the way.

M

Michael Bostik39:43

Well, I think what the turnoff is for anyone, this is men and women in any dynamic, is insecurity.

L

Lauren Bostik39:49

We are inherently, anybody is turned off by insecurity.

W

Whitney Herd39:51

Yep. But here's the thing that's funny is yeah, I'm intense and I'm strong and I love to come into my office and lay it down, but at home I'm soft and feminine and a homemaker and I love being a wife and I'm very in my feminine. So I think you can have both. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

L

Lauren Bostik40:11

I could not agree more. I'm the same way.

W

Whitney Herd40:13

I know. I can tell with your vibe, super cozy mommy mode at home.

L

Lauren Bostik40:17

It's gorgeous. Where did I see that?

W

Whitney Herd40:20

You just sold it. Where did I see that though?

L

Lauren Bostik40:23

I've seen it because somebody else bought it and it's on the internet now.

W

Whitney Herd40:27

Is that where I saw it?

L

Lauren Bostik40:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, probably.

W

Whitney Herd40:29

Okay. It's a beautiful house.

L

Lauren Bostik40:30

It was such a special place.

W

Whitney Herd40:31

Is that where you're going through every detail? Are we doing the baseboards and like...

L

Lauren Bostik40:35

Oh, no. Not there. That was a super vintage hacienda from like the 1800s. It was extraordinary, super spiritual. It was a chapter. We just chose, you know, I married a Texan and we needed to choose where to anchor and we chose that was not our base. I love it there. I love my friends there. I met the most yummy amazing humans that will be lifelong people, but it was a chapter. It was a season and I think life, you know, we have these little seasons.

W

Whitney Herd41:08

Is your husband going nuts over there?

L

Lauren Bostik41:09

No, no. He was actually having a lot of fun. He was riding horses all the time. He was having a blast.

What you mentioned your morning routine when you were grinding, which is you're waking up at 3:00 a.m., you're breastfeeding, you're staring at the monitor. What does your morning now look like when you feel anchored, when you're tuning into your soul and not your ego now?

W

Whitney Herd41:35

So, I really, really, really try. I've fallen off the wagon a little bit. When I'm in my best routine, I am waking up at 5:30 saying my morning mantras, prayers, my meditation. I really like to start the day by, and not in a religious capacity, but like dear universe and then I pray for others. The first thing I do is pray for the people I know that are going through something hard. If someone's struggling with health or someone's in it, I wake up and just really say prayers for people to heal. And I just wish well on people. It's the first thing I do in the morning. And it gives this energy to the day that is genuinely rooted in positive intention. And then I pray for the protection of my loved ones. And I give thanks to the universe. Thank you, thank you, thank you for every little thing I have. And so I just say these silent mantras and prayers in my head and try to be still. And if I'm really good, I'll do TM. Bob Roth will be mad at me because I was in such a rhythm where I was doing it twice a day every day and I was on another planet of tapped in. But I have fallen off the wagon. And then I have a brand new baby so I like to get up and go smush her face. She's so delicious. And then the day goes but I'm kind of like you, when I get into my routine I'm obsessed with the sauna, obsessed with the red light.

L

Lauren Bostik43:19

Have you ever tried the immortal bed?

W

Whitney Herd43:21

No. What's that?

L

Lauren Bostik43:21

Is that the one that's got the, is it glass and it sits and it looks like it's going to mash in?

W

Whitney Herd43:26

Yeah, they have it in Aspen. I just go use it at the place. I know what you're talking about. It's got the sound.

L

Lauren Bostik43:32

It's cool. So like I'm doing all these things. I ordered your thing that you promoted, the shift wave thing. Like I'm trying to do all this. I have the power plate. You know that shaky thing. I don't know if that works. Do all the skin stuff.

W

Whitney Herd43:44

You should see me. I'm listening to affirmations on the plate, brushing my teeth, doing posture exercise, looking outside. Lauren is the final boss of the morning routines on Instagram.

L

Lauren Bostik43:59

I think I might be the mob boss. I try, I get 40 things done at once.

W

Whitney Herd44:03

I love that about you. Yeah. My husband always teases because I learned about him through one of my dear friends Sarah Blakely, who if you haven't had her on, you've got...

L

Lauren Bostik44:13

Had her husband on but not her yet. But I'd love to have Sarah on the show.

W

Whitney Herd44:15

Sarah's spectacular.

L

Lauren Bostik44:16

That's another person. Oh my god, there's three people you've recommended.

W

Whitney Herd44:18

She turned me on to Wayne Dyer, who I'm now obsessed with.

L

Lauren Bostik44:22

You and I are on the same...

W

Whitney Herd44:24

Are you doing Wayne Dyer, too?

L

Lauren Bostik44:25

That is so weird.

W

Whitney Herd44:27

It's really... I have a very niche vintage.

L

Lauren Bostik44:32

It's very vintage niche. Woo.

M

Michael Bostik44:34

You know what? You got to be careful because listen, you're a public CEO and that's fine. And this show sometimes they'll come in and say, this show's getting a little woo woo.

W

Whitney Herd44:42

I am woo woo and don't you forget it. You know what? My woo woo made it all happen. That energy is why things move in the direction they move with me.

M

Michael Bostik44:51

His lecture or his book.

W

Whitney Herd44:52

Anything Wayne Dyer, I've listened to it.

L

Lauren Bostik44:55

You and that is so weird.

W

Whitney Herd44:56

Sarah Blakely got me turned on to it. And look what she's built.

L

Lauren Bostik45:00

You know which one I'm listening to right now. If anyone wants to start, want to turn on a little more Wayne Dyer.

W

Whitney Herd45:04

I do every morning. Are you not listening? Love it.

L

Lauren Bostik45:07

Oh, because you hear it. Excuses Be Gone. That's the one I'm on. That's a good one. But the one before was the Power Lecture maybe. He is so good.

W

Whitney Herd45:15

I love him.

M

Michael Bostik45:16

I mean, I don't know anything about him because I think he predates us a little bit, but whatever I do know is just what I've listened to and I think he's amazing.

L

Lauren Bostik45:25

I'm assuming you've listened.

W

Whitney Herd45:27

Yeah. Got super deep on the telepathy tapes.

L

Lauren Bostik45:31

I haven't heard about that. What's that?

W

Whitney Herd45:32

Oh my god.

L

Lauren Bostik45:33

Oh my god.

What is happening here? Okay. Okay. Start them immediately.

W

Whitney Herd45:41

And then you need to have Kai Dickens on your show.

L

Lauren Bostik45:43

Who's that?

W

Whitney Herd45:44

She did the telepathy... Okay, just you and I are going to boooo for an hour. But then the funny thing about me...

L

Lauren Bostik45:50

Yeah, yeah, I'll do it. That's perfect.

W

Whitney Herd45:51

The funny thing though is like I can go all down this rabbit hole. Like you want to go near-death experiences, I've read 100 books on it. But then if you want to talk business, I've read every... I mean I actually was never a big business book reader because...

L

Lauren Bostik46:07

Which ones do you think are worth reading? Because like here's the thing, I think same as you.

W

Whitney Herd46:12

I kind of stopped reading them. Because they all say the same thing in a different format and I'm also like I don't want to be you as a leader. I don't want to be you. I want to be me.

L

Lauren Bostik46:22

I just need tools to be a better version of me.

M

Michael Bostik46:25

Which do you like?

W

Whitney Herd46:26

Well, I think there's some iconic ones that everyone should read. My mind is blanking right now on my favorite one, but there's a couple basics that everyone should read like Made in America, Sam Walton.

L

Lauren Bostik46:39

Great book.

W

Whitney Herd46:40

Everyone should read that book.

M

Michael Bostik46:41

It's really more of a biography though.

W

Whitney Herd46:42

But in my mind, understanding the human and the way someone moves through the world, that's my version of a business book. Like I have zero interest in reading how to scale your business from A to Z. I'm good. I know how to scale.

M

Michael Bostik47:03

I'm good.

L

Lauren Bostik47:04

We could write all the books together.

W

Whitney Herd47:06

No, but like that. That's just not... I know how to scale.

L

Lauren Bostik47:12

Wait. So you'll go down rabbit holes when it comes to reading.

W

Whitney Herd47:17

Oh, yeah. I'll go down like physics rabbit holes, philosophy rabbit holes, like went full obsessed on philosophy.

L

Lauren Bostik47:24

Are you reading Wayne or are you listening to Wayne?

W

Whitney Herd47:27

Oh, I like to listen to Wayne. I like his voice.

L

Lauren Bostik47:29

Yes. So do I.

M

Michael Bostik47:30

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L

Lauren Bostik52:07

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When you have the success that you've had and the headlines that you get, how are you then after that able to decipher who's coming around you for the right reasons and who's looking for an opportunity?

W

Whitney Herd53:27

I don't hang out with anybody.

L

Lauren Bostik53:30

What about your mom friends?

W

Whitney Herd53:32

Okay. All my best friends I've either known... My dearest friend in the world is my best friend from summer camp when we were 11.

L

Lauren Bostik53:43

Amazing.

W

Whitney Herd53:43

Okay. So, she's my number one. She actually has an incredible jewelry brand. Her name is Jesse Lazowski, Marlo Laz. If you haven't seen her stuff, it's to die for. She's incredible. And then my other best girlfriends are like just true blue mom friends or my best college girlfriends I hang out with. I have like a pack of 10 people that are my ride or dies. And then I just have like wholesome, cozy family friends that like my husband and I are friends with the mom and the dad and we're friends with the kids. Like I kind of keep to myself.

L

Lauren Bostik54:17

Do you think it's harder to make good new friends because of the profile?

W

Whitney Herd54:23

No, I'm super not like that. I don't really care. If someone wants to be friends with me because of Bumble and they're cool and funny, I'm like, God bless. Cool, let's go. Like as long as they're fun, I'm in that stage of life where I'm like if your vibe is hilarious, cool, connected, fun, like use me if you want to.

L

Lauren Bostik54:42

Must listen to Wayne Dyer. Must listen to Wayne Dyer.

W

Whitney Herd54:44

But I'm not, I'm just not like that. I'm like pretty chill. I'm not really guarded. I don't really think I'm anything special if that makes sense. Like I have a lot of friends that have started businesses and they roll with security and they're super important like sunglasses in a lot of places and I'm like I'll just roll through the pharmacy or the grocery store. I'm like no one knows who I am. No one gives a [__]. Like not one person cares about me.

L

Lauren Bostik55:11

Surprises me that people don't come up to you all the time.

W

Whitney Herd55:14

They do but not in like the way you would expect. They come up to me and they're like, 'This is my Bumble baby.'

L

Lauren Bostik55:23

That's cool.

W

Whitney Herd55:23

And I'm like, 'I love you. That is so cool.'

L

Lauren Bostik55:26

You know what I'm hearing throughout this interview is you've really mastered the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment. Because with the art of fulfillment, you get helping people fall in love, which what's better than that? And a Bumble baby. I mean, that's very fulfilling, but you also have the science of achievement with your career. It's so fruitful. You've really got them both. I never thought about it that way, but I think you do too. I do feel that I have that because the podcast to me is fulfillment and my product line is...

W

Whitney Herd55:58

And by the way, you've changed my life with the mouth tape. So, let's just put it out there.

L

Lauren Bostik56:01

Well, yep. No, no. And the thing where we get personally the most excited and fired up is when people will come up and say some area of their life was changed for the better based on something they saw. I'm going to say it's cooler than all that matters. Bumble baby.

W

Whitney Herd56:18

Yeah. You know what? I will tell you the thing that does keep me going because let's just be real like work gets worky. It gets worky sometimes. It's the success stories. It's the people that tell me, I mean you can't even imagine the stories I've heard. It's the stories of people who have come back from grief, met the loves of their lives, have multiple kids, never thought they would ever meet anyone, now they're thriving. Crazy story. Actually, when I had Bobby, my first son, here in Austin, delivered him in Austin, I got super super scary postpartum preeclampsia. Ended up back in the hospital and they were like, you know, touch and go. God knows what's going to happen. It was quite scary. And this nurse came into my room and she kind of felt like an angel, but she was real. I've confirmed. And she told me that, and by the way, if anyone can find this nurse, I want to speak to her. So, if anybody can locate this person, please bring her my way. But she told me that she had to break HIPAA and come talk to me because she heard them talking about me at the nurses station. Bumble girl. I probably sent like cookies or something, you know, like I was always doing something for the nurse station. And she said, 'I had to come talk to you because...' and she grabbed my hand. She goes, 'I was in an abusive marriage for decades and I read about you and I read about Bumble and I read about why you started Bumble and so I got the courage to leave my husband.' And when I got back on my own two feet and felt strength again, I downloaded Bumble and I have never in my life met anyone with his name before. And I had to come talk to you because he's my fiance now and he's the love of my life. And when you go back to the hospital with a motherhood-related illness, they actually take you back to labor and delivery. They don't put you in normal ER or ICU. They take you to labor and delivery and monitor you there. So, I was back in labor and delivery and you remember having your babies, they write mommy's name and baby's name out on the door and she said, 'His name is Bobby Lee and that's my son's name.' Because we named him after my husband's grandfather. So, I was like, 'Okay, if that's not a testament to keep going and just like you just got to keep on going when work gets hard.'

L

Lauren Bostik58:44

That's a sign.

W

Whitney Herd58:44

That's a sign. Read the book Signs.

L

Lauren Bostik58:46

I cannot wait to read that. Is a huge sign.

Speaking of Bumble, I think we'd be remiss. What is going on from your perspective reading the data, running a dating company, what is going on in the dating world? A lot. If you read the headlines, there's a lot of doom and gloom. A lot of people saying they're giving up. Younger people not getting into intimate relationships, a little too swipy swipe. I mentioned on a show that people are concerned about people not having as many babies and that society is going to crumble because we're not procreating. What are you seeing? And what does the data show from your perspective?

W

Whitney Herd59:23

The demand is 100% still there. People want love and connection. That has not left the building. It just has not. I think the way in which they're able to find love and connection is not serving them in a way that it used to. I think the swipe has, and I admit to this, I'm super self-aware and we're reinventing ourselves and we're building new features and functionalities. I think this mass availability of people at all times at the tip of your fingers has burnt people out and it has gone from being what it was meant to be, a dating app, which would insinuate what? Gets you on good dates, right? And then if the date goes well, hopefully that turns into a relationship or something fruitful. Right now, we're calling ourselves the love company because love doesn't have to be marriage and babies, but we want to put more love into the world and we want to bring people together face to face in the real world. And so what we are doing right now is to meet the demand of people wanting to meet. They're desperate to meet. They're doing anything. I mean, they're literally setting up these little clubs in their area and trying to meet people through anything. Like they're willing to go back to church when they're not even religious because they want to meet people. That is the craving of the fabric of society right now. It's like people want to meet people but they don't know how because of a few things. Thing one, social media has completely desensitized everyone and disconnected us. We are living through these alternate realities of what's real. Dating apps probably have played a role in this too because we were meant to be a dating app but it turned into just this swipe swipe app where you were just swiped into the...

Abyss, right? Or maybe you got all these matches and they just never went anywhere. These dead-end chats and ghosting and all of this heavy rejection layered with judgment and it just kind of taxed people. And so I see it as my duty, and this is part of why I am back, is I'm a problem solver and I am certainly not going to leave the industry in the state that it's in right now, which is not in a bad place. It's just in a moment where it needs evolution.

L

Lauren Bostik1:01:37

It does. It's not bad. It's not broken. It's not dead. I mean, I think Wall Street and the media are being super overreactive and way more pessimistic than they need to be. Partly, that's kind of the role they play in the world.

W

Whitney Herd1:01:52

So where I think things go from here is I think we're at the most interesting intersection I have personally ever arrived at in my career, which is where AI can just supercharge human connection. So we are absolutely going to transform the way people meet. We are leaning into bringing people together through groups, through events, in the real world. My big vision for Bumble is in five years from now, every single person can meet someone through Bumble, not on Bumble. Maybe that's at a Bumble event, in a group, or through a group date. A girlfriend of mine was telling me last night, she's dating someone right now that she met on Bumble. I asked where they met, and she said she matched with his friend, went on a date with his friend, but clicked with him instead. They're dating now. I believe success in numbers is the next frontier. We're focused on building AI-powered capabilities to make it seamless and efficient to get you offline to a safe meetup as quickly as possible. We just want to bring people together in the real world. And tell me what is more powerful in this era of AI, where we are automating everything, than human connection.

M

Michael Bostik1:03:32

It's funny, like we're doing—and Carson knows this—as a digital company, we produced a lot of digital content, but this year we're doing the first one in May and another one later we haven't announced yet, where we're bringing people offline together because I think it's so important. The company's like, why doesn't your media partner with Bumble?

L

Lauren Bostik1:03:54

Yeah, let's do it together. Yes, you should do something. But to your point, I see what's happening here and I'm like, why? Every time we do these events and I see everyone there at a happy hour talking and connecting, that digital content should be a reinforcement and a tool to help you interact in the real world.

M

Michael Bostik1:04:10

Amen, my friend.

L

Lauren Bostik1:04:11

Right. Not like you shouldn't live in a bubble online. No. And they weren't designed that way.

M

Michael Bostik1:04:16

And it's, you know, I got a lot of—and I'm sure you dealt with this too—when COVID happened, everybody went remote, and slowly but surely I've been enforcing and making people get back in person. People kick and scream about wanting flexibility, but I want people to connect in life with each other. That's why you end up caring about something or people, not staring at a screen. Remember when we were doing those happy hours on Zoom?

L

Lauren Bostik1:04:42

So, one of the most depressing times of my life is sitting there having a whiskey looking at a bunch of screens.

M

Michael Bostik1:04:47

I won't get on video. Everyone gets so mad at me. I get text messages saying get on video Zoom. I won't do it. I'm not going to stare at a screen.

L

Lauren Bostik1:04:54

The Zoom happy hour would be one of the most depressing times in human history. We're all sitting alone in our houses drinking, looking at each other on a screen.

M

Michael Bostik1:05:04

I completely agree. Um, I think it's like reminding people that we're designed for connection and to be around each other. You can use better together. We are better together.

L

Lauren Bostik1:05:15

It's genius though to use AI as the tool that it is to then get the connection, which is the meat of what is needed.

M

Michael Bostik1:05:22

Let's talk about the other reasons you decided to come back. You left, you stepped down as CEO, you brought in another CEO.

L

Lauren Bostik1:05:32

Do you want the real reason?

M

Michael Bostik1:05:34

Were you sitting around?

L

Lauren Bostik1:05:35

You're not going to believe the real reason. It's a little woo woo.

M

Michael Bostik1:05:39

No one knows the show to do it on. Go ahead.

W

Whitney Herd1:05:42

Okay. You want the real reason I came back? I was very happy and did not want to be a CEO again. I was loving life, having a great time. However, I'm an entrepreneur. If someone's a painter, just because they get tired doesn't mean they're never going to paint again. This is who I am. I need to build, solve problems, create, and put things into the world. I swear on my life, I had no intention of going back to Bumble. I love the woman that was our CEO for a year—she's brilliant, remarkable. She decided for her own reasons it was her time to go, no falling out. I thought, okay, maybe I can't do this again, but then about a week before she let me know, I had this crazy download that my purpose on earth was to help people find love. I was trying other ways, but when she decided to move on, I felt the universe was pulling me back. You started this conversation by saying things don't happen to you, they happen for you, and this was clearly happening for me. Before I agreed, I called my psychic medium, Laura Lynn Jackson.

L

Lauren Bostik1:07:59

You got to text me that information. Laura Lynn Jackson.

W

Whitney Herd1:08:03

And it's funny, I have a crazy network of brilliant business people, but before I texted them, I was like, she's my go-to. I called her and said, 'Laura Lynn, here's the deal. What am I meant to do? I'm having fun starting new companies, living life with my husband and kids.' She goes, 'I am getting a message from someone you love who passed.' She said he's telling me to look on the back of your husband's belt. I was like, I got to go, this is getting too weird. But she said, 'I'm being shown a silver belt buckle with a scene on the front.' I'm like, 'Oh, I know what she's talking about'—my husband's Texas rodeo belt buckle. She said, 'Look on the back. If you're going back as CEO or not, you'll know right away.' I forgot about it until it hit me, and I asked my husband Michael where his belt buckle was. He got it, and inscribed on the back was every single word of 'The Man in the Arena' by Theodore Roosevelt.

M

Michael Bostik1:10:25

Bam. My favorite quote. It's cool.

W

Whitney Herd1:10:28

It is how I've measured my career—just be in the arena every day, even if you get marred or muddied. At least you're not in the nosebleeds. I was like, I'm going back. That is so gnarly.

M

Michael Bostik1:10:47

It's so funny because we were prepping for this show, and I said to the team, I guarantee the reason this person goes back is because they are not built to sit on the sidelines and relax. It's just not possible.

L

Lauren Bostik1:11:01

Bingo. You can't build the way you have and be as productive and then one day be unproductive, right? A lot of people's ambition is to take it easy, but for someone like yourself who is a builder and creator, you're not wired to sit like that. That would make you more anxious and stressed, causing unhappiness.

W

Whitney Herd1:11:29

100%. No, like I am meant to change things in the world that I do not like or cause people harm or stress, or make improvements. Like I like to improve things.

L

Lauren Bostik1:11:43

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Every single morning I wake up and give my kids their supplements. One of the supplements we give daily is Beekeeper's Naturals. There's this Propolis Throat Spray—yellow and amazing. They have an adult version that Michael and I use all the time, but also a kids version. I like it for my kids as a daily dose of immunity, proactive for the immune system all year round. It feels soothing on the throat when they're sick and delivers antioxidants like flavonoids that fight free radicals and combat stress. I carry this in my handbag, have it in our supplement drawer, Michael has it in his carry-on. I also recommend their nasal spray—it's non-toxic, non-habit forming, cleanses and soothes the nasal passage. I use it anytime I feel a histamine response or cold coming on. They also have a throat soother and a vitamin C liposomal. Today, Beekeeper's Naturals is giving our listeners an exclusive offer. Go to beekeepersnaturals.com/skinny or enter code skinny to get 20% off your order. That's beekeepersnaturals.com/skinny or code skinny. Products are also available at Target, Whole Foods, Walmart, Amazon, CVS, and Walgreens.

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M

Michael Bostik1:17:33

Before you go, you have to tell me how you manage your time. What gets your time and attention? Why did you come on this show? What is worthy of your time? Because...

L

Lauren Bostik1:17:43

I love you. Not you. Just me.

M

Michael Bostik1:17:46

You, too. No, I love you, too. But okay, I just really vibe with you. Oh my god, I'm very—let me tell you what I like about you so much.

L

Lauren Bostik1:17:56

Here's the thing I love about you so much. Are you guys having a moment? Yeah, we're having a moment. I love that you are multifaceted and unapologetic about it. I find that a lot of women who have found success or are career-oriented have a hard time being vulnerable about other components of their life. Like if they're a strong businesswoman, that's the only side you see—a shell you never see beyond. We're made up of a lot of parts. I love that you are unapologetic about being a nurturing, loving mom, cozy and making a home feel special, but also a total boss at work, with these different sides. I don't know many people like that. I like you—I think you're cool. And I think you're really cool, too. I love your show and the honest, open, vulnerable conversations. That's where I'm at in my life—I just want to be real and open with nothing to hide. I think more authenticity is better for the world.

M

Michael Bostik1:19:14

I will take that coming from the world's youngest female billionaire.

L

Lauren Bostik1:19:19

Is that the right title? I don't think I am now. There's all sorts of other ones.

M

Michael Bostik1:19:24

I mean, I'll take it. Listen, there's so many other younger women than me.

L

Lauren Bostik1:19:29

When you're not here, we'll list the accolades. But I do have to ask this selfish question I'd ask off-air: Is the calendar crazy? Are you a psycho? Is it color-coded? What's your time? I just want to know. Oh, everyone has a color. And is it like my kids have a color, meetings have a color? Are you someone who's like, get the meeting in seven minutes?

W

Whitney Herd1:19:52

You know what I've started doing? Don't tell anyone. It's fine. Only a few people listening. So, you want the efficiency hack? When I was on maternity leave, I just had my baby a few months ago—by the way, I did a natural birth, which was crazy. That was insane. If I ever have another kid, I'm getting an epidural right when I get to the hospital. One is good. I'm glad I did it. But anyway, when I was on maternity leave, I tried really hard to be present with my children, but I couldn't disappear. I'm the CEO and in the middle of building stuff, so I'd ask people to record videos of meetings and send them to me. Then I'd listen at 2.5x speed. My husband walked into the kitchen one day and was like, 'What is that?' I'm like, 'Oh, I'm hearing an update.' He's like, 'How do you even hear that?' So I've trained myself to listen at maximum speed. I could get through 15 updates—videos 15, 22, 46 minutes long—and I'd plow through them, taking notes. I just make it work.

M

Michael Bostik1:21:21

I will tell you that this interview was worth waiting 10 years for. And I don't know how you do this, Michael, but this should be like the beginning. We're rebranding to the Bostics. This is the conversations I'm excited about having. Will you come back on? And you're right, the only other thing I want to tell y'all that I think is game-changing is I don't know if you've done any of this yet, but I've taught myself how to build stuff on AI. I'm like a vibe coder now.

L

Lauren Bostik1:24:27

What do you mean you've taught yourself how to build?

W

Whitney Herd1:24:29

So, if I have an idea—and this is cool for you to keep in mind—I used to have to sit down with my product team, pitch it, hope they understood, get a designer to mock it up, wireframe it, which took six weeks. Then it'd go through a process where good ideas went to die. Now I just tell my little digital technical friends. I like Claude. I like Claude Code. I've been playing on Perplexity Computer a bit. Have you tried that?

L

Lauren Bostik1:25:03

I've tried Claude. I've not tried Perplexity yet.

M

Michael Bostik1:25:06

Gemini is Claude's—Claude's my bud.

W

Whitney Herd1:25:09

I basically had Claude turn into my technical co-founder in life. Pretend you're my technical co-founder—your job is to bring my visions to life, make them smarter, better, pressure test against investors and minds, build an advisory board, poke holes, bring it back better. Then design it as if Jony Ive and Steve Jobs got together with Hermès designers. I give it absurd prompts.

M

Michael Bostik1:25:56

On ChatGPT? You got to get—I've been telling—we got to get you on Claude. Well, I like ChatGPT. ChatGPT is a little like, 'Everything you're doing is right,' you know.

L

Lauren Bostik1:26:04

I told it not to do that. I went into settings, 'Be mean to me. I am all enough about me. What do you think about me?' Tell me more. It's all messed up.

W

Whitney Herd1:26:18

I'm going to go—I might get into vibe coding. You need to start vibe coding, and we'll show each other our ideas. If you have a concept, I've had a few ideas I want to build, so I'll build mock-ups. I started a thread at Bumble last week called 'Bumble Build Ideas' and asked the whole company to do it. If you have an idea, vibe code it, and maybe we'll build it for real.

M

Michael Bostik1:26:42

People are very concerned about jobs, obviously. What do you think from what you're seeing from a personnel perspective? With tech, is AI going to replace a lot of people?

W

Whitney Herd1:27:00

It will replace people that don't know how to operate, drive, command, and control AI. If you can't be the boss of AI and direct it, build and scale agents, run it like a team of agents, you probably won't be able to run a team at the best companies in a year from now. That's interesting. You have to be able to command AI, and you can practice that. People are scared, but technology always changes and evolves. We were literally plowing fields with horses, and we don't do that anymore. It will 100% displace people who don't evolve with the times. If you're doing something AI can do faster, more efficiently, without cost, you should figure out how to evolve.

M

Michael Bostik1:28:02

Absolutely. Just sit there and be like, 'I hope it doesn't happen.' I think it makes you more creative if you know how to lean into it. To your point, in person is going to be even more important in a more digital world where people crave human connection. You cannot replace human connection. Even if—this is too much information—Lauren's like, 'What happens if the sex robot comes?'

L

Lauren Bostik1:28:26

I don't know if I want to be sitting with a sex robot all the time. Are you going to have sex with a sex robot?

M

Michael Bostik1:28:32

Well, do you consider it cheating?

L

Lauren Bostik1:28:34

Yes. Are you kidding? Do you even have to ask?

M

Michael Bostik1:28:36

Then no.

L

Lauren Bostik1:28:37

Oh my god. If I walk in and you're having sex with a sex robot, I'm out.

M

Michael Bostik1:28:40

Listen, but at one point these robots—but here's what I'm saying. Even if the robot is the most attractive robot ever, at some point deep down you're going to sit there and be like, 'I am hooking up with a robot.' Humans were made for each other. Like, you're going to have to look yourself in the mirror.

L

Lauren Bostik1:29:01

Well, I'm really into grounding, and I don't feel like a fake penis would do it for me. I like to ground with the frequency. No, but you know, we had Gary Vee as a friend, and he was on—people will be, he thinks people will marry AI bots or robots in the future.

W

Whitney Herd1:29:12

I think that the most valuable thing five years from now is human-to-human connection. Agree. Which is why I think I'm in the best business, and I think y'all are in really good business too.

M

Michael Bostik1:29:22

I would agree with that. Bumble is partnering with leading happiness expert, author and professor Arthur Brooks, who has been on the show. We love Arthur.

L

Lauren Bostik1:29:30

That's what I just said. And so how do everyone sign up for Bumble BFF and Bumble? And where can they find you to say hi?

W

Whitney Herd1:29:38

Find me to say hi. Oh, I'm starting a group on Bumble BFF today, actually. That's cute. Yes, you should start one, too. Wait, so what do I do? Okay, so I'll show you how. I'm going to start a group where I chat with any women who want to join, ask me direct questions, get mentored, or anything like that. And I want to learn from them too—tell me everything going on. Arthur Brooks is incredible; he understands connection better than anybody out there.

M

Michael Bostik1:30:10

Be desired, guys.

W

Whitney Herd1:30:11

Yeah. And what I love about him is he just genuinely wants to help people find happiness. According to him, you find happiness by having a connection with yourself, a higher power, and each other. If you can do that, you'll have a fulfilling life.

M

Michael Bostik1:30:32

Agreed. How can people sign up for Bumble?

W

Whitney Herd1:30:34

Everyone that is single, I don't care if you're 18 or 80, you should get on Bumble. We're also rolling out a brand new, overhauled, meticulous redesign this summer. Stay tuned. So many new features are coming. I am going to make this the dating app that women have been waiting for. I am going to fix women's dating problems again and again and again. And then just download BFF. You can find girlfriends in your area, groups to do things—book clubs, makeup, anything under the sun. You don't need to be lonely wherever you are. BFF is there for finding your people platonically, and Bumble is there to find your love.

M

Michael Bostik1:31:18

We need a Whitney book club on Bumble BFF.

L

Lauren Bostik1:31:20

Let's do it. Let's do a woo club. You and I will start one.

M

Michael Bostik1:31:23

I'm in.

L

Lauren Bostik1:31:24

You should come on the stage out here when we do this thing in October.

W

Whitney Herd1:31:26

I'll be there. I'm there.

Bumble Founder Whitney Wolfe Herd: Billionaire, Burnout & Redefining Success

About Whitney Herd