At bunq we want top athletes. We want the Champions League.
I'm Eva de Mol and I'm fascinated by entrepreneurship, technology, and innovation. In my weekly podcast I speak with people who deal with entrepreneurship and innovation every day. Deal with It.
In this episode of Deal with It I speak with Ali Niknam. Perhaps the most striking and successful entrepreneur in the Netherlands. I'm sitting here with Ali Niknam, CEO of bunq. Who doesn't know him? Ali, first of all, how are you?
Well, I'm always sensitive to atmosphere, but especially to the weather.
I see. I was about to say I already took that as a compliment.
Yes, well, I looked... No, but it's been wonderful weather in the Netherlands, and that's always nice.
Lots of gray. Yes, I don't know. I don't need much to feel good.
Yes, what do you want from me?
No, no, that's a very good start. In this podcast series I talk to many entrepreneurs, but I think there are few who are as pure an entrepreneur as you. You started at 16. When I say that, do you immediately feel very old, or is that manageable?
No, I always feel very old.
Yes, I know. But I thought maybe today would be less.
But what makes a 16-year-old think, 'I'm going to start a business now'? Can you tell me something about that?
Boredom. No, a few things. I've always been very curious. And now I'm characterized as an entrepreneur or a banker or a programmer. But actually, my grandmother told me I was always curious—I started unscrewing wired phones at age two. I'm just curious how things work. So that's one part of what defines me. Another part is that I really enjoy building things.
And if you combine those two when you're 16 and you're bored—because everything goes terribly slowly—then Jaap, my high school friend, and I started a company.
Yes. And then directly the question: we'll fast forward to now. But actually those traits you mentioned—that define you—aren't they very challenging now that you're in this position as CEO of a huge company?
That's a very good question, and the answer is yes, because I like building. Running things—I can do it, but it's less challenging.
Yes, but that's actually very logical.
Yes, that could be. Yes, that's true.
And you started your company. It was immediately super successful.
No, not the one at 16. That one didn't die quietly, but it wasn't very successful. You also have fail-your-experiences. Plenty.
But then at 21 you start something new and that is very successful. Looking back, what three elements were typical of the success you had then?
I think one of the things is that I'm really a product person. So I care a lot about the product: how it looks, how it feels, how it works. And that makes it easier for me to have a product that I'm enthusiastic about.
And that company you're talking about is called TransIP. Yes, it's now part of a large company, Team Blue. TransIP was at the forefront of the generalization of the internet.
But when you say that, it's pretty bizarre that you started that at 21. For people who don't know TransIP, it was super innovative. Not only coming up with it, but also rolling it out well, becoming very successful, and becoming a billionaire from it. That's really special.
Yeah, when you say it like that, yes. But from my perspective, it's not that way. You don't become older... Speaking of getting older, I looked in the mirror recently. Ali is 42, right?
43. Screw my life. But for your feeling, you don't get older, right? You're always yourself.
Yes, I'm often surprised when I see a photo. I think, wow, I'm really old. So I had that. Someone took a picture of the back of my head and lots of gray white hair. That was a moment I thought, oh yes.
But you didn't dye it, because I see it now too.
No. I am who I am. Anyway, from my perception, every day is just one and I just do my thing. And at that moment I became aware of how much time has passed in recent years.
That same thing applies to building the company. I started it because I found the industry interesting, because I had an idea, because I thought many things could be better, because it could mean a lot to our customers. And I just dove in and kept going. I think that's a thing about entrepreneurship that I've been highlighting recently. I was recently honored to be a guest at a setting in Rotterdam involving the university. I have the idea that when I started, entrepreneurship wasn't sexy or fashionable. So you did it because you had a real conviction—you really wanted to build a product or change the world. The motivation was intrinsic and authentic. Now it's become more exciting. When I started, I had no illusion that it would be difficult and a lot of work and hassle. But now people start with a romanticized Hollywood image: 'We'll eat pizza, drink beer, get in the right taxi, and suddenly have a great company.' That's not how it works.
Yes. And I also see that. This morning I read about someone who is now an entrepreneur. Everyone suddenly becomes an entrepreneur; it's become cool. While ultimately it's often hard work—always hard work.
But okay. If you go back to... I understand that when you tell it, it's like the end.
But I just got up every day and thought, 'Oh, I'm going to build a control panel.' Because it's weird that people don't have control over their online world—domain names, web hosting, servers, whatever. I thought it was crazy that you needed other people for that. So we built an enormous control panel, an enormous admin panel. And that is still world-renowned after all these years.
And one thing led to another, and now it's the second or third largest in the world, I think.
Yes. That's really insane. When you think back, could you say that was a dream of yours? Or where you are now, is it like the dreams of 16-year-old Ali have come true, or is there always something new?
Well, I haven't really had many dreams about grandeur. For me it's more that curiosity and the energy to build something. A few months ago, I had the luck to meet someone I quickly came to respect very much. An older man in America—name doesn't matter. With age comes wisdom, so I really appreciate that. He said, 'Look Ali, I've seen more people like you. For you, it's about solving the puzzle. Once you've figured out how something works and demonstrated it, you're done with it.' So that also touched on what's next for bunq and for me. So my answer to your question is: I just enjoy making things. That's it.
But that also means you get bored.
Yes, and otherwise I get bored.
That's a nice hook to where you are now at bunq and what your plans are. Do you say, 'I've been puzzled out here'?
Well, fortunately at bunq, because it's my third big company and I know this about myself, I've set it up so that for day-to-day operations I'm not really needed anymore. Thank God—thank you guys if you're listening. We have very good people who do a lot of things, so I can focus more on new product development, new services, or international expansion. And I find that fascinating. And another part is that every day is new—so much happens. As long as I don't have to do the same trick too often, I find it interesting and fun.
Then the next thought was: when are you satisfied? Because there's a new puzzle every day.
No, it was a bit of a rhetorical question because I've known you longer. But it must also be tiring sometimes.
Well, what tires me is not the running—it's being held back. That is much heavier.
Yes, or from people who try to stop you.
Yes, unnecessarily. And I find it interesting because bunq is also a political environment. People have opinions, it's become political, we are under regulators, and everyone has a view. I find it hard to see that some people, with the best intentions, try to move the country forward, but there are also many who are only there for themselves. That is so far from me.
I think it's also a bit of Dutch culture—jealousy or begrudging. We are not a country where successful people are celebrated.
No, that's about entrepreneurship. But I'm now specifically talking about bunq and what we are doing for our users to give them control over their money, freedom of choice. And by doing that, we are kicking against an existing garden. TransIP was much less dangerous because it was a new market that didn't exist yet.
But don't you think some people genuinely don't want to understand what you're doing because they think from their old system?
Not want, can't. That can be. I know those people. Actually, my mother called me yesterday and said, 'I finally switched to bunq—much more interest per week.' Well, I'm going to keep going. Step by step.
Yes, per week too. So that's a few things: it's more and it's per week and somewhere else. Then she told her friends. That was pretty funny. But I understand your concern, but I can't even understand that because it's something that affects you and your company so much. But I think it's a good hook to entrepreneurship and investment climate in the Netherlands and its future. We see an exodus of entrepreneurs—small and large—who say they're leaving because of regulation, culture, or opposition. You said in an interview that staying in the Netherlands is crazy if you think about it rationally. Can you elaborate?
I can certainly elaborate. I remember that interview. I compared Amsterdam with New York, and I listed a few points—I'm always substantive and factual. I said, 'If you hear this, you'd be crazy to stay here.' Even if you look rationally. So give some context: it was the conclusion of a comparison. My intention was not to complain—there's enough of that—but to point out: if we see these points, what are we going to do about it?
I think a number of those points are specific to the Netherlands but also Europe-wide. Our home market is quite small. The world stage is essentially populated by English-speaking Americans, Brits, and two big regions: India and China. Europe is in between and has had a good run, partly at the expense of other regions because after WWII we got cheap loans and didn't have to pay for our own security or drug development for decades. But that's okay. Now we're feeling the pressure to think: 'Okay, the Netherlands has 18 million people. How do you take on America with 350 million?' If you look at the total population of Europe, it's about the same or larger than the US. Yet it's not used today. Why? 27 or 28 countries, 28 languages. Is that inherently very difficult to do something about? No, it's very easy to do something about, because the difficult part we've already done.
The region is what your solution is?
It's actually not difficult because almost everyone in Europe speaks English now. So first, everyone learns English as a second language from primary school. That's one. We all speak the same language—I'm still surprised, sorry, this podcast is in Dutch. Second, one legal system throughout Europe. Third, one fiscal system. If you have those three things, you've got it.
But you say it very easily. The solution is easy on paper, but the implementation is not, because all those people making decisions have egos and think their own legal system is more important. So theoretically it's beautiful, but it won't be solved in the next five years.
I don't know about that.
Ultimately, those people are there by the grace of our desire that they be there. I think we as the population they serve should say, 'Guys, enough. We don't want to waste billions extra per year unnecessarily because of fragmentation. We don't want all our talent to go abroad—not just entrepreneurs, but also top athletes, basketball players, musicians, all in the US.
But I think many people don't see that as a problem. Ali, we see this as a challenge, but most people still find it complicated when they read something in English online. So there's a gap between what you say and what they experience, and I think it will take a long time to get there.
I don't think so. The youth already speak fluent English. Almost everyone. I understand it's difficult and we have to put our shoulders to the wheel. It won't happen by itself, but the alternative—not doing it—leads to further decline.
Can you run for prime minister? No, man, I have enough political exposure with bunq.
