This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where I search for the human side of success. I talk with leaders of today and tomorrow about their motivations, careers, and private lives. Why? Because more should be discussed in the financial sector.
Leaders in Finance is made possible by Inter Valley, FG Lawyers, and Biscuit.
This week, Ali Niknam. Ali, A-I and Niknam, N-I-K-N-A-M. He is the founder and CEO of bunq. Welcome, Ali.
Thank you. Great to be here.
I'd like to first tell something about you and your companies, because it's an incredibly impressive story in my opinion. bunq was founded in 2012 as a mobile-first bank with the tagline 'Bank of the Free'. The bank prides itself on transparency, freedom of choice, and advanced technology. bunq, spelled with a Q, a small Q and a small B, for symmetry, received a banking license from De Nederlandsche Bank in 2015, the first fully new bank in about 35 years. Ali was born in 1981 in Canada to Iranian parents. After a short stop in Iran, he came to live in Gouda at age 7 where he attended grammar school. At 9, he started programming and at 16 he started his first company building and selling computers. From 2000 to 2007, Ali did his bachelor's in technical computer science at Delft University of Technology. Meanwhile, he founded domain registration and web hosting company TransIP in 2003, and data center group in 2007. To give you an idea of the numbers of Ali's companies, I want to share some about TransIP and bunq. TransIP merged in the summer of 2019 with a Belgian peer to Team.blue, with an estimated valuation of 1 billion dollars and more than 1 million customers. Team.blue then made a large acquisition, bringing the customer count to about 2 million and the valuation even higher. Data on bunq isn't all public, but in 2018 there was more than 200 million in entrusted assets on the balance sheet. Recurring income was already over 3 million euros. And it's estimated that in 2018, it's a rough estimate, there were already more than 30,000 customers. So that's probably significantly more today. Ali is 38 and lives and works in Amsterdam. I read two books by Ali in preparation. One, 'Ondernemers hebben nooit geluk' from 2012, is by him. And another book, more about Ali and bunq, called 'Breken met banken' from 2016. I enjoyed them very much. It gave me the feeling I know Ali quite well, but I want to emphasize, as I do with every podcast, that we didn't know each other until about 10 minutes ago. I've been looking forward to this conversation. So let's start quickly, and I want to learn a lot more about Ali later, but first I'd like to ask some questions about bunq, if that's okay. Let's start. What are the three biggest differences, if you had to choose three, between bunq and a more traditional bank?
Well, first of all, thank you for all the flattering words. I can imagine you're always found to be charming, and thanks for the good preparation. I always feel charmed when people read my own book, because I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into it. So you've already got me. Thank you. Regarding the three things that truly distinguish bunq from a traditional bank, there's really only one. We wake up and go to bed with the idea of how we can make our users' lives easier. That's it. Whether we do that through an app, which we chose because that's the way to do it in 2020, or through other means, doesn't matter. I think that laser focus on user-friendliness is what sets us apart.
Recently, I couldn't avoid it because I saw it everywhere, the Green Card was launched. What is that exactly?
Yes, well that's something really nice. It's a beautiful metal card, it shines, it's just beautiful. With which, for every 100 euros you spend, we plant a tree. And we did that because we care about this world like everyone else, and we wanted to combine a great product with doing something good for the world. So we came up with the Green Card.
Is there anything to say about the profile of bunq customers? Is there an average bunq customer or not?
No. You might think they are all young, hip people, and they are that too. But it's not just that, because our product is so diverse it can mean something for everyone. For entrepreneurs, we save a lot of time. We have many innovations that help entrepreneurs focus on their business instead of administrative hassles. For expats, we make it easy to open a bank account at all. At traditional banks, it's very difficult if you don't live here yet. For people who appreciate something beautiful and want to do good for the world, we have the Green Card. For people going on holiday who don't want to be ripped off on the exchange rate, we have the Travel Card. For people who want the absolute best experience in their finances, we have bunq Premium. And it's more than just a bank account. You can budget easily, get insight into your spending, share your bank account with multiple people, create sub-accounts. So there's something for everyone.
I think it's fair to say that the culture and the technology are very different at bunq. Looking at those two, how important are they relative to each other? Are they equally important, or what makes them truly different?
Well, we actually started with the idea of serving our users. How can we make their lives easier? And from there we structured everything. As you can see around us, it's not a typical banking environment. And I think we are a tech company. Tech companies are very user-focused. Tech companies are expensive, service-oriented, which is why we have many tech people here. And everything is built to be able to make life easier for that user. And yes, we have the latest technology, and we are ahead globally, which I'm very proud of. And yes, we have many innovations that make life easier. Some of these innovations, as is now known, have been copied, many have not. But that is secondary. What you also saw at the most recent bunq Update 13 is that we have a very close, almost intimate relationship with our users, so we understand very well what their wants and needs are, so we can make products people truly love. That makes it very dynamic, and means that at a product launch we have a sold-out room with hundreds of people enthusiastic about a bank. You don't have that anywhere else in the world.
No, I worked at ABN AMRO from 2007. Back then, people were quite curious but also found it exciting what those challenger banks would do that were emerging, especially in other countries. Do you think the banks were and are still afraid of parties like yours?
Well, what I notice is that companies that have seen their best days, with all due respect, often go into a kind of anxiety reaction, turning inward, trying to defend their territory in all sorts of ways. While I think ABN AMRO doesn't need to be afraid of anything if it understands its added value for its customers. And when that's less clear or when it's questioned, then I can imagine that people become afraid.
I wanted to draw an analogy with TransIP, the company you founded incredibly successfully. As we said in the introduction, it now involves huge numbers. If you draw that analogy with bunq, would you at some point see bunq merging with other challenger banks to create an even bigger player in Europe?
Anything is possible. For me, the starting point is the users. At TransIP, it was very logical that we eventually merged. We had fantastic technology there, and we were the market leader in the Netherlands with the best products, the most user-friendly, and a large, loyal customer base. But outside the Netherlands, we had difficulty gaining a foothold. So it was most logical to allow people outside the Netherlands to experience the wonderful products of TransIP by merging. So we did that. But for me, it's not a goal in itself. My starting point is always: how do we reach those users where we can really make a difference?
Clear. Then moving on to you as a person. We'll meander our way back to bunq. Your upbringing, your fascinating description of what it means to be an entrepreneur, I found that very interesting to read. Was that entrepreneurial spirit already in your environment growing up?
That's a very nice question, but I have to think back, which isn't my strongest suit. I always prefer to think forward. I don't know, because I've always been very curious and creative. That combination made me an entrepreneur. But, as I also describe in my book, if I had been a bit more skilled with a paintbrush, I could have become a painter. So I don't know how much my environment contributed to that. But the diversity in my background, being born in Canada, living in Iran, coming to live in the Netherlands, experiencing three different cultures, that broadened my view of the world. And it allowed me to experience firsthand that on this planet, we all actually want the same thing. That this planet is populated by people who not only want the best for themselves but also for each other. And that the differences we are unfortunately confronted with regularly in the current times are in reality much smaller than we are led to believe. So from that worldview, I look at many things, and combined with my creativity, I often see how things can be better and different. That's been the red thread in my life. In high school, I thought I knew everything better, I was a bit of a know-it-all. Not all teachers liked that. But it enabled me to start my own business. And then my university studies, I also did entirely my own way. I wasn't there very often, to be honest. And so I see how the world can become even more beautiful, better, friendlier, more together. And I try to bring that to life in all my companies.
Yes, because the initial question came from me reading your book and thinking: nature or nurture regarding that entrepreneurial drive. Reading about you, it seems almost nature to be an entrepreneur. While I often see people I've spoken to on this podcast have been greatly influenced by people they met or even the fact that their parents were entrepreneurs or were in an entrepreneurial environment.
Yes. Nature versus nurture is one of those questions that is often posed as black and white, but like everything in life, we often deal with shades of gray, I think.
Yes, completely agree. Completely agree. I think I won't get into an argument with you if I say you are competitive.
Did you grow up with brothers or sisters?
I have a younger brother. Yes.
Was there always competition there?
Certainly. Yes, he is also very competitive. We both did a lot of sports. My parents also did a lot of sports. And my brother took a slightly different path in life. He graduated cum laude, even summa cum laude in one of the more difficult programs in Leiden. And he also won the silver medal in, I believe, Taido, a martial art for students in the Netherlands. So he is also quite skilled and driven, and he is also busy making the world a better place in his own way. So maybe that's a bit in our nature. On the other hand, I think anyone who has had the privilege of traveling the world at a relatively young age and has experienced how beautiful this world is in its totality, I think that person is always destined to try to contribute to making that world better as a whole.
Beautiful. If I combine everything I've read, one thing kept running through my mind: this is basically an Elon Musk in many ways. I'll explain. I don't know if you see that as a compliment or not. You think big, you work incredibly hard, you are incredibly successful, you have a big fan club, you regularly stand on stage, as you mentioned with the bunq updates, and you are very focused on system change. Internationally oriented, technically skilled, razor-sharp smart, mostly reasonable, maybe some people say not always, I don't know. Always focused on output, as you have written everywhere and I hear: get stuff done. Probably also impatient, I'd guess. All that forward-driven stuff is exactly Elon Musk. Do you recognize that comparison?
There are worse people to be compared to. But do you recognize it? Well, I think we all try to contribute something to this world in our own way. And when I look at my brother, who we were just talking about, I also find him very impressive. The reason I say this is that I sometimes notice that people have an idea that you have to be an Elon Musk to contribute something positive. But actually, I think we all have it in us to contribute something. So yes, do I look like Elon Musk, don't I look like Elon Musk, who knows? I think we all do what we can in our own way to make this a more beautiful place.
Yes, well, I hope anyway, but that's my opinion, that in the Netherlands we really appreciate that kind of person. That we are not jealous of them. But we'll come back to that later. I know you've discussed it often, but I'd still like the listeners to hear about it once more. What was it like coming to the Netherlands when you were about seven? You had some quite interesting experiences.
Well, first of all, it was terrible, because I loved my grandparents and uncles so much, and I couldn't see them for a while. So I found that very sad. I found it very cold and chilly. For people who may not know Iranians or Persians well, we are very hospitable, very warm. The door is always open, neighbors often come by. Life takes place on the street because it's a warm climate. I often make the comparison, coincidentally yesterday with a friend. When an Iranian says 'It's time to eat,' they mean 'Stay for dinner.' When you hear it's time to eat here, it actually means it's time to leave. So that coldness and chilliness was a bit of a culture shock. But quite quickly, especially once I was in the right school, I was also captivated by the Dutch culture. That things just work here, are orderly, the lovely blonde girls, the kindness and goodness of the people around me. For instance, teacher Jan who went against some rules and said, 'It doesn't make sense for that boy to go to some half-baked school on the other side of town when we can offer much better education here, and besides, he lives around the corner.' That has always inspired me. And that brings me back to what I said, that if you go around the world, you see cultures differ. Some are more chaotic, some more organized, some warmer, some colder. But you find the good in people everywhere.
You mention teacher Jan a few times. Do you still have contact?
I ran into him once about 15 years ago. He still remembered. It was very strange to see him after all those years. I found it very beautiful, very nice. But not really after that. I don't even know his last name anymore. To me, he was always 'Meester Jan'.
Well, with your internet skills, I think you'll find out who it is very quickly. And maybe someone listening now knows and can tell you the surname. Important people in your life who were decisive. I'm not going to ask who they were, but I am very curious about the role of Dr. van Lieven.
Yes, yes, a great guy. What a wonderful character. What do you want to know about him?
Well, more about what he meant to you?
Well, maybe a bit like Meester Jan, he was also someone who saw what we were doing. Meester Jan was about me, and Dr. van Lieven was about bunq. He came to our first office, not far from here. It was the full-blown crisis period. The office was completely empty. We had no central heating, so it was unheated. We could rent it for a pittance. It was basically anti-squatting. And a prominent figure from Dutch society comes to visit. We had cleaned the space a bit, vacuumed. And he finds himself in an unheated, semi-cleaned room with 15 kids with the biggest ideas. But of course, it made no sense at all. And he decided, because he agreed with what we were trying to achieve, to lend his name to it. And there was nothing in it for him. There was no upside, no bonus. He had nothing to win. The only reason he did it was because he thought it was necessary and good for society. And is it true that at one point he said, something along the lines of 'Persians are good at seducing people, but I'll do this anyway'?
Yes. I'm paraphrasing and I don't remember his exact words, but it was exactly at a table like this, which we bought from a bankruptcy estate, this round table. And he said, 'Persians have been known since antiquity for their seductive arts. I only came by today to satisfy my curiosity.' But, 'I can't do otherwise, I have to participate. This is such a fantastic thing. I'd love to join and help you.' And that's how it went. And suddenly we had a new commissioner.
Beautiful story. We had a guest before, Martijn Roosmuuller, also a successful entrepreneur, who took a sabbatical to study psychology. And when I read about you, I got the idea that you would also find that interesting.
Psychology? Certainly. My brother studied psychology.
Yes, okay. And the reason I ask is because you also seem very engaged with how to motivate people. How exactly do you do that?
How do you motivate people? Well, I'm more focused on what drives people. What drives people? What drives the world? Why are things the way they are? Why are we satisfied with many things but not with others? For instance, I read this morning or yesterday the terrible news that two people were stabbed again in the UK. That's terror. It's very unfortunate. But why do we accept that 10,000 people a day die from diseases or car accidents? Why isn't that news? It's not as if we can't do better. It's not as if we can't reduce those numbers. So many things for me are not just accepted. I always ask: why do we do this? And maybe that's what you mean by also looking at people, what makes someone driven? Why do some people work for 30 or 40 years at something they don't enjoy? Why do people work for a long time at something where they can't add value, and they know it themselves? How do they sustain that for 40 years? I can't bear the thought. I'm done after two days. Sorry, I just can't do it. So I'm just curious, I think.
When you wake up in the morning and start thinking about your work, what motivates you the most?
