Cappellini is a multicultural company in terms of products and in terms also of use of material, very classic materials or using contemporary technologies.
Is there a specific time where you say that, oh, you know, this was a risk that I took, but it turned out amazing?
It's always sometimes very difficult to say that product will be successful or not in the market. Sometimes also when you work a lot on innovation, it takes time to enter in the market. But I always say, okay, we are not doing a fresh pasta that after 3 weeks is dead. You know, I don't want to push my kids to follow myself. Giovanni is a very good photographer and sometimes he works also with me, but I want to give to my kids their own freedom. We live in a country where we have so many different nationalities and it's like you get everything at one and the same place.
Hi Valeria, hi Shad, how are you? I'm good, how are you? Good, good. It's a busy week as always. Oh, this week has been very, very interesting. Yeah, it's a fun week.
Yeah, and nevertheless, it's going to be a very interesting interview because in our chair today we have, I want to say the legends, absolutely, very legendary. When I think of masters, I think of the Bauhaus, I think of St Architecture, and of today's era, I would definitely put this gentleman within that faculty, 100% agree with you.
Yeah, we have Mr. Giulio Cappellini with us, and starting off, thank you so much for taking your time.
Definitely, my pleasure. Thanks a lot to invite me. And you know, I'm not a legend, I'm still alive. I'm not that, so I think that I have a lot of passion for my job, that is true.
Can you think you cannot be a legend if you're still alive? Yeah, you're a living legend, you're a living legend. No, but you and the house of Cappellini, I would say, is definitely something that I yearn for. For us, it's the father or the pioneers of what we call the modern design, you know, so definitely starting from your father to you and to the continuous of the legacy, no?
Yes, that's true, because you know, I was graduated as an architect at the Polytechnic of Milano. At that time, early 80s, I was thinking just to be an architect. I started to work just to win a few mon, and at the time small family business. And one evening I decided to go at with the Cappellini company. And you know, at the time Italian design was really already very famous worldwide, but I'm very curious and so I start to travel in Europe, in North America and Asia to see what is going on in other countries. And so I had the possibility to meet fantastic people, on one side big well-known architects and designers, or on the other side completely unknown young students or designers. And so I start to build the Cappellini collection, and I'm very happy because really a lot, a lot of well-known designers today they really start their career with Cappellini, like Jasper Morrison, Marc Newson, the Bouroullec brothers, Tom Dixon, many, many of them. In fact, I always say that in my next life I will do the agent for those designers.
You would be a great agent, win a lot of money. You can still be the agent, and that's it.
And I think that, you know, yes, I'm very curious, I have a lot of passion for my job, and I think that there is always something new to do in design. It's not true that everything have been done. And I think that really, and also the evolution of design from the 80s till now is really incredible. And so I think that really is a fantastic job, you know.
In one of your interviews you said that you were born into furniture. Were you thinking from the very beginning of your life that this is where you're going to end up? This is what you're going to end up doing: architecture, design, scouting of talents?
But you know, I really think that the thing that I like more, sometimes also I design some products, I always say that I'm a Sunday afternoon designer, but the thing that I like more is to design companies. Because I think that maybe people they can copy a product is more and more difficult to copy a design concept. So I strongly believe in global projects. I like to work in teams. I like really always to discuss with other people coming from different countries with a different history, with a different culture. I think that today this is the modern, the contemporary way to do drawing, to do design, and this really very, very different from the 80s. Because in the 80s, okay, designer make a sketch and after the company, the team of the company they decide how to proceed. And so now really, I think that the designer has to follow the project from the beginning, from the first idea till the end, and it's a very interesting evolution.
Many people see you as a scout or a talent scout. You know, you are in my opinion, you know, when you bring all of these amazing talents together and you try to make them create something for Cappellini or make magic. Do you see yourself as a scout? You mentioned something about in my next life you would want to be an agent for all of them, so many hats.
But I have to say that, okay, I travel a lot and I'm in many design contest committees, and so I have the possibility to meet a lot of people from all over the world. And there is not one way that I follow to choose a designer. Sometimes maybe I speak and I think that the person is really very interesting. Sometimes I see a prototype and I say, wow, I cannot live without that product, I want to have it tomorrow morning. Sometimes maybe I see some sketches. But for me, again, the first impression is really very important. I have to say that really, so I don't follow one way to choose designers. In fact, when you think to the designers that cooperate with Cappellini, they are very, very different. From the minimal approach of Jasper Morrison to the more organic of Marc Newson or Bouroullec brothers, from maybe the more the core approach of Patricia Urquiola to the minimal of Piero Lissoni. For me, the most important thing is really to tell them, okay, to give to them their own freedom, to respect their own DNA, and I tell them, okay, try to do something that can fit into the Cappellini catalog, thinking that Cappellini is a multicultural company. It's a multicultural company in terms of products and in terms also of use of material, very classic materials or using contemporary technologies. And my role as an art director is to try to create a sort of fil rouge that connect all those different approaches to design. And I think that this is fantastic because, you know, doing our job, we don't need to tell too many words to explain a product, because if you spend more than 30 words to explain a project, it's because we are not 100% convinced of what we are doing. So we can show what we think just doing things, people they can like or they cannot like, but at the end we can express ourselves doing objects. And today really to do design is a 360-degree project, from a table, a chair, to a glass, to a bottle, to a building, to a car, to a computer, and so design is everywhere and in everything.
In this sense, we're a little bit going back to the times of Charles and Ray Eames, you know, where this time designers can actually do a little bit of everything, right? A little bit of automotive design, a little bit of accessories design, furniture design, which is also an amazing thing.
Yes, yes, because also normally when they ask me which are the new trends, I think that the trend today is the freedom of the end consumer to mix different products designed by different designers, produced by different companies in different parts of the world and in different periods. Now, you spoke before about the house, for example, the house 50, 60 years ago they understood this freedom of mixing: maybe a beautiful contemporary chair designed by Piero Lissoni with some carpets coming from Morocco or some candles coming from India. That means really freedom. In the past, people they want to live in the same house like their friends or to work in the same office like their friends. Now they want to live in houses that reflect their own identity, and this is the big change. And so being a designer, we have to try to create something that can fit in many different architectural situations.
That's very true. Have you ever heard about Mr. Cappellini's story of Tom Dixon and how he met him? No, and I'm sure our listeners would like to hear that as well. I would like to, do you mind telling us about? I love that story.
Yeah, you know, yes, a very good friend of mine, unfortunately she is no more with us, Franca Sozzani was the director of Vogue Italia, and she told me, you know, Giulio, I was in London and they met this strange guy that they think that can be an interesting designer for Cappellini. So I told to her, okay, next time that I go to London I want to go to see him. And so I wrote to Tom and I say, I want to see you. And so I arrive in this very, very dark space with people working, and at that time he was playing guitar in a rock band. Yeah, he was a musician, like a DJ, yeah. And he want to do design, but he was doing really very hard pieces, no, metal chairs on which you cannot sit. And so, but speaking with him I told, okay, Tom, you want to look so hard, but at the end you are very gentle, very kind, so I will send you a ticket and come to Italy that we can spend some time together. And he told me, no, there were about 10 workers, do you want a coffee? I told him, okay, yes, that only one cup for people, it was nice. I'm still alive, so it was okay. And so Tommy came to Italy and he spent two weeks working with our artisans, and it was a fantastic experience because he was so kind with them. And so in fact, also now after many years, some of those asking me, but when that tall strange man from England will be back here in Italy to work with us? And anyway, you know, he is a very good friend, because I really think that if there is the right feeling between myself, my team, and the designer, we can arrive to do a very good product. If there is not the right feeling, it's not possible. Sometimes I had the possibility also to work with some people, but there was not the right feeling. It's a marriage, it's a marriage between two.
Definitely, yeah. I also want to ask, what does it take to play such an important role, how does it feel to play such an important role in someone's life? Because this is what you did actually, and then from that moment on Tom Dixon just, his career skyrocketed. It's amazing.
Yeah, but you know, it was step by step. This means it was something that happened and that's it. When I start to work with all those international designers at the time completely unknown, it was just for passion, it was just to try to create something new, but there wasn't really a plan. No, everything happened. And it's interesting, and also in that time, you know, maybe it was more easy to do that. Today is more difficult. And so, also if today, really, at that time, the interesting areas was Europe, North America, and so now Middle East, Far East, and so are very interesting and uncontaminated areas for design. So I think that there is a lot to do, yeah, there's a lot to discover.
We see you as a risk-taker, you like to take risks when you approach or when you design or direct. Is there a specific time where you say that, oh, you know, this was a risk that I took, but it turned out amazing?
But you know, when you do a new project, it's always sometimes very difficult to say that product will be successful or not in the market, no? Sometimes also when you work a lot on innovation, it takes time to enter in the market. But I always say, okay, we are not doing a fresh pasta that after 3 weeks is dead. You know, for example, when I start with Morrison, the interesting thing of all the projects of Morrison, they are not bestsellers but long-sellers. And sometimes at the beginning maybe we sell very, very few pieces, like when I start with the Sinking Feeling chair, maybe the first two years we sold three chairs, one to myself and two to my friends. Now he's a top seller of Cappellini. So for sure, today, I think that for a company to be contemporary, it means really to work always in innovation. And you know, you cannot work on innovation if you don't take risks, and if you're not, as Matisse was saying, just a little bit crazy, because otherwise, you know, you cannot really be innovative if you're not crazy. Otherwise, for sure, sometimes maybe you have good results, sometimes less good results. And so, but I think that time will take care of Cappellini, will not take my risk.
Definitely, absolutely, I think you need to be a risk-taker. So you said earlier that you're a Sunday designer, it's a really, really cool way of describing yourself. What is the difference in your opinion of creating an object or creating such a good and successful company?
But you know, I think that, because sometimes, art directors in many companies they want to take care of all the design process, no? I'm very open and I think that, you know, I have to try to do what I'm sure that I can do in a proper way, know? And for sure, I always say I do very, very square things because I'm not able to design round things, you know, you have Tom Dixon for that. I think that for sure, I cannot think that I can do and or I can design everything for everyone. So on one side, I think it's very important to think in a more global way, and also on the other side, you have to be very generous. You know, if there is someone better than me in doing that project, why not? I have to use him or her, absolutely. And also for me, the most important thing is always to look to the new generation. And also today, worldwide, there is a very interesting new generation of designers, and you can find good people everywhere in the world. Sometimes I don't agree when people they say, oh, that area is not interesting for design. Maybe 90% of the people are not interesting, but 10% are interesting, no? And so I think that really you can find good ideas everywhere in the world. Because I think that really the market today doesn't need of new products, there are hundreds of very good products in the market. The market needs of new ideas, new concepts.
Absolutely. What do you mean by new concept?
New concept is that today we have to think in a more global way, we have to think in a more global landscape, for sure, landscape for residential, for hospitality, for office. And so for sure in those landscapes you have products, but you have not just to think to the single product, you have to think in a more global way. Just because also the attitude to the space from people after also the pandemic is changing a lot.
Absolutely. So when we think about offices, we speak about fluidity, and also, you know, when you think to your home with a lot of virtual meetings, you know, your home is your theater. At the beginning of this virtual communication, we had just white wall on the back, now you have your bookshelf, your paintings, you have your view. And so, so it's really the approach between ourselves and the ambiance where we live or where we work is completely different. That's why I think it's very important to look to this change.
Think how the image of offices changed in the last 10 years. Before, offices were really very square, very black and white. Now they are more soft, natural materials, vibrant colors, more flexibility. And so that landscape completely changed, and this is important.
Yeah, I think we're evolving. I mean, now a lot of people working from home or semi, and of course office spaces as well where people can share. And I think that's why also we go towards more of an office space that is more personalized. You tapped into it a little bit before, but personalized space within our house or within our office is so important. Yes, when you were saying before, before we were looking into what my friends is having, but now it's more of a personalized matter of what I resonate with.
You tapped also in a little bit with traveling a lot and up-and-coming and non-contaminated countries. Which countries do you see is an up-and-coming or what do you see in the next decade?
Yes, but I think that first of all, the most thing when they look to new areas for design is that areas they have to maintain their heritage. This is absolutely important, no? And I think that today the southern part of the world is really very interesting. And speaking about Middle East, Far East, South Africa. And so recently I visited the Biennale in Venice, the art Biennale, and I have to say that, you know, Europe is not living in a good period, and you see that the installation of the European countries they were just a little bit heavy, no? The installation of the countries of the southern part of the world they were so vibrant with a lot of power. And so, so I think that in those areas really where design is growing uncontaminated, design is going. For example, Africa is really very interesting, South Africa, because really there is a new generation of interesting designers and artists. And also Far East, because when we think to China now, we say in China they copy everything, it's not true, because you can find copies also in Italy. In China today you have fantastic photographers, fantastic writers, fantastic artists, and for sure designers. The same in this area. For me, the most important thing is always when I speak with the designers to understand if I'm speaking with the designers living in Dubai or in Stockholm or in Hong Kong, because we have to look to the future, but we have not to kill our history. This is absolutely very important.
And I feel like you know UAE really nailed it in a way that they really focus on their heritage, but at the same time, there is a huge amount of emerging talents, even local talents or regional talents that growing. And you can see with downtown Dubai how much it's been changing, right? It's a huge shift in the past 10 years. Yeah, I wanted to ask you, you've been coming here for a very long time, you know, and you're a great guest, everyone is waiting for you, and you're on so many panel discussions. How do you see Middle East change in the past years and where do you see where are going in terms of, as you said, hospitality, wellness, and all even retail and all these aspects?
But I have to say that really, design here is becoming more and more contemporary, not only in interior, also in architecture, and more and more sophisticated without losing the original and the local DNA. So I think that really the evolution is absolutely very, very strong, because you know, Dubai today is very different of Dubai 10 years ago. And also when I think to Downtown Design, every year the quality of the presentation, the quality of the product is really growing a lot. So I think that today, really, for the contemporary approach, is the right moment in this area. Because also, you know, people they like more and more cultural contamination, people are traveling a lot, the young generation really they are very open to what is new. And so I think that for Dubai and for the area, is a very, very interesting moment.
Yeah, I agree. I also think that the new generation is pumping it, really. That, as I've seen, I've seen a lot of very, very interesting and very talented young generation within downtown. I'm super happy that I also think that because we live in a country where we have so many different nationalities and we're all within, definitely we're all in the one and the same place. We get inspired by each other, you know. You were talking about I've traveled a lot to see all of these different designs, and it's like you get everything at one and the same place here. You can get inspired by someone from there, from another country, from another continent.
You very recently did a very nice job together with Technogym, talking about different countries and talking about different artisans or designers, and created a beautiful collection for their 40th anniversary. Can you because you know I like a lot this sort of cultural contamination. And for me, just speaking about this anniversary of Technogym, the idea to choose 40 different people with a completely different approach to design to give their own interpretation of the Technogym product. And I think that also choosing them in a complete freedom, on one side maybe big well-known architects and designers, on the other side new and completely unknown young people. And the interesting thing is the result, because you see how it's very difficult to see what is designed today, know? Because really I can say that today works everything and the contrary of everything, but you know, in a different way, all those pieces are really beautiful and interesting. And I think that this is again the contemporary vision of design. I was really very happy with that project at Technogym because you have a sort of vision of the world, of what is going on today in the world, in different parts of the world, from Australia to Africa to Europe to North America.
Yeah, collaborations, you know, you've done so many collaborations, it's just endless, you know, the master of collaboration, yeah, you're of talents and collaboration exactly, talents and collaborations. What is it that's coming up interesting in terms of collaborations and what is it that you would like to do or work with someone maybe that is in your next step?
But you know, I think that, okay, as I told you before, maybe we don't need of new products, we need of new ideas on one side. On the other side, I think that speaking about design, we have to work a lot, a lot on communication, no? Maybe sometimes instead to do a new product is better to find a new way to promote an old product. That means, you know, we have to try to show to the people what there is on the back of a real product, so then consumer they can maybe understand the difference between an original design or a copy. And so, so on communication, really there is a lot, a lot to do, because sometimes we people of design we think people they don't understand design. No, but if people, if the public they don't understand design, is because we don't explain to them design in a proper way. So I think that this is mostly in the new countries, this project, this concept of communication is absolutely very important. So this is the things on which I'm working, and on one side for sure communication and to try also to adapt the communication really in the culture of the different markets. This morning I had a meeting with the Finas team, and we are just thinking which is the best way to promote the Cappellini brand here in Dubai.
Yeah, because you cannot use the same, you cannot promote a brand in the same way worldwide. Absolutely, no.
