Pro a proti: Reklama pivovaru Bernard

What means are appropriate to use in advertising, and which have already crossed the line? These questions were raised again by an advertising campaign from the Humpolec brewery, which used images of so-called pinup girls. Pinups were very popular in the 1950s, when serial images of girls promoted certain goods and society perceived them as sex symbols. Organizations calling attention to sexism in advertising, the Shadow Council for Advertising, and other initiatives sent an open letter to co-owner Stanislav Bernard, urging him to take down the controversial billboards — which he refuses to do. From the microphone, greetings from Veronika Sedláčková, for and against.

Good day. And our guests are: co-owner and co-founder of the brewery in Humpolec, Stanislav Bernard — good day — and Petra Havlíková from the non-profit organization Shadow Council for Advertising, also a member of the Nesehnutí movement. Good day. Please, both of you, keep your answers brief if possible. First, you, Mr. Bernard — are you considering taking down the controversial billboards we're talking about, the pinup girls?

You're not considering it? You haven't considered that it might benefit culture or something?

The same question to Petra Havlíková: would it be appropriate for the billboards to disappear?

Well, of course we would appreciate it if they were removed. However, we would also appreciate if a further edition were developed in which things moved forward so that women wouldn't be disparaged. So it's not absolutely necessary that these particular ones be removed, but it's possible to work toward some future direction. I think taking down the billboards is actually a very difficult step, and I understand the position that Mr. Bernard doesn't want to do it.

Mr. Bernard, given that Mrs. Havlíková says completely removing them would be too radical a step — are you perhaps considering a further edition? We know the edition has gradually evolved. Now we have the so-called feminist edition, where there is a girl's body but it's your face promoting Bernard beer.

Here it's appropriate to say why the Shadow Council for Advertising asks Stanislav Bernard to reconsider his advertising campaign. Yes, exactly — as you just formulated it, it's a much deeper problem. That's what we're saying too. We want to talk about the broader social context. It's not about the individual advertisement, but about the meanings behind it.

Mrs. Havlíková, what is behind this specific advertisement, in your view, that makes it necessary to correct it in some way?

What we object to is advertising in which women are treated as objects — shown only as things, as something to be used. You can see this because the women aren't active beer drinkers; they're just drawn figures, shrunk down — if they were proportional, the beer and the woman would be the same size. They're also depicted in a sexualized way, and for some of them, their skin color is highlighted. These are all social problems: discrimination based on gender, discrimination based on race — things we think society should handle very carefully. Even in symbolic representation, society should be aware of what consequences certain images can have.

So, Mr. Bernard, we hear objections regarding sexism, racism — discrimination based on gender and skin color — which, according to Mrs. Havlíková, your campaign may support in society. So I ask again: have you considered correcting it in this direction, given what we've been discussing?

And in your view, there's nothing of what we've been discussing? What's your opinion?

You don't know yet? Mr. Bernard, I'll stay with this. You say it's certainly true that the world has people of different skin colors and it's not good to focus on just one. But if a dark beer specialty called 'Black 12' is paired with a bare woman, doesn't that seem over the line?

Mrs. Havlíková, when Mr. Bernard says it depends on one's outlook on life — that with a playful view one doesn't take things so seriously and doesn't see a problem — is your problem that you take yourself too seriously as a woman? I'm asking because it was said here that it depends on how one looks at the world.

Certainly, seriously — on the level of human dignity or questions of discrimination, these are serious questions for me, and I take them seriously. However, I think it's quite clear from the activities of Nesehnutí that we often make fun of ourselves. A colleague and I wrote a parodic article and had ourselves photographed naked with a sign saying 'I'm an ugly feminist.' So we try to reflect on how to function in society, sometimes even with sarcasm. I wouldn't say we lack perspective.

For listeners who haven't heard — please, you can continue.

But returning to the question of race — I think the connection where all dark beer specials feature women with dark skin, and the label says 'semi-dark' or 'black,' that's precisely the reduction of a person to an object based on skin color. That's how racism works: you take a person and highlight the only thing — their skin color. We also had another ad in the Sexist Piglet competition where there was a stylized image of a naked Black man with a drink, labeled 'sweet, naked, and black' — again, a reduction where the important thing about the person is their skin color. We are of course in favor of diversity in advertising, which is why we also defended the case when a flyer depicted a Black man and it caused an outcry — we were on the side that this is completely normal.

So Stanislav Bernard wants to respond.

Why is a woman whose beauty you highlight placed next to beer to promote a beer specialty?

Well, I'm asking why yes, because you commissioned the ad.

You're listening to 'For and Against,' this time with brewery owner Stanislav Bernard and member of the Shadow Council for Advertising, Petra Havlíková. Two guests, two different views. Premiere every weekday morning after 9:30 on Czech Radio Plus. To perhaps explain basic terms so we all understand each other — what is sexism, in your view, Mrs. Havlíková? What's the definition?

I've already indicated it. It's a foreign word, but the Czech equivalent is discrimination based on gender. When it comes to sexism in advertising, it's a broader field — it manifests in the use of stereotypes against men and women, in their belittling. But one of the most frequent manifestations is using the female or male body as an object that has nothing to do with the product being offered. It's a complex issue that must always be understood contextually, and even a small contextual change can fundamentally alter the meaning of an entire advertisement.

Why is it wrong to use a woman for beer specials, when Mr. Bernard says he's appreciating a woman's beauty?

I would have two levels of argument. One is about the impact on society or on women. I'm not saying a single advertisement alone is responsible for the increase in eating disorders — that's definitely not the case. It can only contribute to a toxic cultural environment. Research shows that in modern Western society — I think it was an American study — up to 93% of women hate their bodies because the images they see differ from their own appearance. We would want the world to be a happy, beautiful place where people like each other and want to show their bodies. Also, the World Health Organization's research indicates that one of the most common causes of suicide among young women and girls is pressure on their appearance. I'm not saying advertising alone is responsible, and certainly not Mr. Bernard's advertising. It fits into the broader context of how we perceive stereotypes and the status of men and women in society.

Mr. Bernard, even though, as Mrs. Havlíková says, a single ad certainly doesn't create problems in women's heads — when you commission an advertisement, do you also consider how it will affect the public sphere?

Sorry — when you say 'we,' who are you talking about?

OK, I just wanted to clarify.

And then there are reactions from women who are angry. For example, the owner of a creative agency, Michaela Thomson, who participated in your campaign by providing the illustrator of those pinup girls — she writes that she distances herself from it because she doesn't want the female body associated with beer, sold or offered as a product. Did you talk to her about it?

Let's move on to the fact that there are indeed more women who feel their dignity has been damaged, at least according to public reactions I've found in open sources. Do you acknowledge that this advertising campaign might offend someone?

I just wanted to say that it's good we've met here in the studio, because I can represent someone it bothers. I wouldn't say the ad offends or angers me — those aren't words I'd use. I just wanted to take this opportunity for us to talk about it. Regarding the iDNES poll — I understand that society has different opinions on this ad and on sexism in advertising. While 4% may not seem high, based on older research, people with non-heterosexual orientation make up about 4% of society. Does that mean society shouldn't take any account of them? That's not how we feel. And when it's a different topic, suddenly that percentage is seen as negligible. I don't consider the iDNES poll entirely representative either — it's an opinion-based medium — but that's what occurred to me. From the opposite perspective, isn't there the exact opposite problem? That 4% of people are — forgive me, I'll use the word — 'violating' 96% of the remaining population who have no problem with it and actually welcome it? There were so many reactions saying 'I haven't been this amused in a long time' and 'the best ad I've ever seen.' And frankly, I'll say it out loud.

So you did it on purpose? Partly to provoke?

Someone might call it a discussion. Mrs. Havlíková, aren't you trying to regulate too much?

Not really. I just want to say that it's very important to me that the organizations I represent — and I want to vouch for them — don't appear too harsh toward you. We certainly wouldn't want to be harsh, because respect for other opinions is part of our worldview. So if you felt that any criticism was unfair, please contact us and let us know. It must come directly from us. Before you cite it, I'd like to remind listeners who they're listening to — Petra Havlíková from the Shadow Council for Advertising and brewery owner Stanislav Bernard. When you want to know more, Czech Radio Plus.

Mr. Bernard, did you have a specific reaction at hand that you find too excessive from the Shadow Council or the Nesehnutí movement? You yourself just said you wanted to provoke.

So you'd like people to approach you with respect? We would appreciate it — how many of you are there?

It doesn't matter. And we equally desire that people approach us with respect. May I say a vulgar word? No? Well then, I just wanted to illustrate what kind of reactions we receive, which severely undermines the discussion. You're right. And we certainly don't endorse vulgar comments — they don't please us either. But those are reactions to your actions. Do you also see these reactions as excessive?

Probably yes.

Mr. Bernard, going back to the beginning: when you say you're appreciating a woman's beauty by placing a female body next to a beer specialty — are you promoting the view of a woman as a sex symbol? Is that what's important to you?

And is it about how you see women and how you want to promote them in the public sphere? Is it your personal view, or is it simply an effort to sell beer?

Mrs. Havlíková, can't some women feel offended by the campaign because they feel they have the right to be seen exactly as Mr. Bernard just described?

We certainly don't want women to not be perceived as beautiful, or not be perceived as sex symbols, or not feel sexy. On the contrary, we support all women feeling like sex symbols and doing with their sexuality what they want. But if I could finish — I didn't get to make my second argument about why we shouldn't use simplified depictions of women as objects in advertising: it's because it doesn't work. Just two days ago, an article was published about a MET study examining the portrayal of women as objects in advertising. They found it has a neutral to negative effect. In Super Bowl ads, which take place in a strongly masculine environment, objectifying ads were 9% less effective. So it's also shown from an economic perspective that there's a so-called vampire effect — people remember the ad and look at the beautiful body, but they don't remember the product or don't buy it.

Co-owner of Bernard Brewery, Stanislav Bernard, and member of the Shadow Council for Advertising and the Nesehnutí initiative, Petra Havlíková, were guests on 'For and Against.' Thank you both. Goodbye. Thank you for your attention. This is Veronika Sedláčková.