Whitney Wolfe Herd talks Bumble’s reset and the future of dating on The Axios Show | Full Interview

It's interesting. I'm just so in love with Bumble. I don't see Bumble as a job. I really don't. I don't wake up in the morning and say, 'Oh, I've got to go to work.' It's funny, I have three children, but I do see Bumble as almost a form of a child to me in some degree because I built this from sheer passion and grit, and it's just been this labor of love and resilience for so long. So I don't have a time horizon for how long I'll do something. But I'm always the type of person that says, 'I'll show up when needed.' And if I'm the best person for the role, I'll be here as long as it needs me.

Yes. So I think every company has to grow, evolve, and change, or companies die. That is life. And if you look at every great company, no company just stays flat or stagnant. If you look at Apple, there's new products, new releases, new launches. You're not using the iPhone that you had seven years ago. Bumble's product is still the product you had seven years ago. We have been operating on legacy tech infrastructure. And we are now overhauling that, building a modernized system so that we can deliver the product that members today both need, deserve, but also want. Behavior has changed. When I started this company, it was very novel and revolutionary to be using your phone to date. A young woman just out of college would have never imagined online dating when I was starting this company. It was revolutionary. Now, the revolutionary component of Bumble has worn off. People are feeling exhausted. They're feeling fatigued. They feel like the swipe has degraded their love lives.

We are evolving into our next chapter. And we are synonymous with being the product where we put women in control. Our first move as a company was really having women go first and make that first move. And what we're saying internally is it's time for that next move. And that next move is not merely a better profile. It's not merely a better UI, UX, or simply a better recommendation engine, which by the way, we're doing all of those. The algorithm is the key to everything, making sure you see who you want to see, connect with who you want to connect with. But it's time for a new interaction model. It's time for the next Bumble. And so to answer the question, we are going to be saying goodbye to the swipe and hello to something that I believe is revolutionary for the category, and I'm very excited about it.

In select markets in Q4, the swipe will be gone.

So not all paid customers are created equal. I think this is something that is very lost on the investment community, frankly. They look at numbers as an overall volume. But what they fail to realize is culling the system and forcing quality over quantity means that there are some low quality payers that we have intentionally said goodbye to. What people fail to realize is a portion of the payer drop was low quality spam-like behavior. Why would we want a payer in the system that is degrading the experience, particularly for women? So we would much rather take a short-term hit on total payer numbers to really do the job that we set out to do as a very multi-stage process, which we're now entering phase two of. The first phase was cull system of low quality, low intent behavior, enforce better authenticity and better checkpoints to create a higher quality member base. We are member obsessed. The number one member complaint when I stepped back in as CEO was that women said they felt like the people they were seeing were not who they actually were. They felt like the quality of behavior was low. They felt like they were experiencing low quality. So we said, 'Okay, let's overset, let's reset and overhaul the supply.' Step two is really overhauling the UX, the backend, which we're almost done with, and the interaction model in the profile and the way in which we interact with these higher quality members. And so that's the way I think about payers. The other interesting thing about payers and what I think a lot of the investment community fails to realize as well is people will go to the ends of the world for love. If you actually look at how much people are willing to pay to go out on high quality dates through, whether that's real life matchmakers, or coaches, or people to help them show up better, it is a lot higher than the subscription costs that we have. And we haven't even entered into this phase of a re-imagination of our revenue potential. So I fundamentally believe when you have all of the pieces in place, a higher quality member base, check, a new interaction model, a modernized profile, a next-gen recommendation engine, a modern tech stack, and all of those components to come together with a more premium subscription offering, this is poised for the turnaround that I came back for.

So we are always exploring what's best for the shareholders. I obviously cannot comment on what the structural future of the company would or would not be. But what I will say is I think the benefit that I have garnered over the last few years of being a public company CEO is I'm tough as nails now. You really can't hurt me. So my stock drops 40%, it goes up 40%, I keep showing up with the same level of passion, purpose, focus. You cannot rock me. And I think that this has been truly a masterclass in just learning how to stay focused on the long term, because you get pulled all over the place being a public company CEO. Whether this is forever or not, we'll see what's best for the company at the right time. And in the meantime, we just keep delivering good product and working hard behind the scenes.

So I think if you look at the way monetization has been working at Bumble historically, we've almost monetized in the capacity of saying, 'Hey, this freemium experience is maybe not great. Pay us and you'll get a better experience.' So the future of the monetization model in this new interaction and relaunch is let's give everyone something great. Let's just make the free experience great. But you're going to want more of a good thing. Instead of paying for less of a bad thing, let's actually find interesting modalities to allow you to opt into more premium offerings to get more of a good thing. And that's the way we're approaching this.

So it's very hard to talk about this without telling you what this new product is. And due to the competitive nature, and we're not ready to launch it, it's still in testing, I can't give you all the details. What I will say is that right now, one of the major pain points that we hear from members is that the free experience is not great. They feel like in order to get any value from our product, they're almost ushered into needing to pay. And what we're realizing is not all cohorts are interested in paying. Some are looking to experience something great before they pay. There's different engagement mechanisms with different audiences. So the way we're really approaching this is building experiences that are so good and letting you have a bit of it for free. But just like you're seeing with the AI models, you cannot just go build on Claude Code all day long for free. You can try it, and then when you want more, you have to upgrade. So that will basically be the way we think about this: how do we give you something good, it's working, you're happy with it. But to access it further, deeper, more intentionally, there are going to be more premium offerings. Also, if you want a more curated experience, if you want a more high-touch experience, Bee, for example, is our AI assistant, our AI dating assistant. So what you will see starting in Q4 and through 2027, Bee will start to come to life as a premium offering. And the willingness we've already seen through testing has been extremely encouraging and illuminating. People are willing to spend a deep amount of time talking to our AI assistant... People want to be known. People want the product to know who they are and what they're seeking, because they're here for an outcome. They're not on Bumble just to passively engage. They're on Bumble to find an outcome, which is a relationship, which is a connection.

Right.

Yes, so I would say we have a very different mission, very different strategy than Hinge. I certainly don't want to keep a member trapped in a dating loop online just to be able to make some money. That is not my intention. That's not who I am as a CEO. My purest intention is to help people find love and connection. How does that manifest into the actual member dynamic with us, and how does that convert to their lifetime experience with our products? I believe that we can do both. We can help you meet a special someone, in which case you don't need Bumble for that. But we are going to, also starting at the end of the year and early into next year, be introducing more dynamic ways for a social life, to engage socially through Bumble. IRL products. How do we help you meet groups of people? How do we help you come together to do the things you love to do in the real world? So I actually envision Bumble being this social life enabler. And this is one of the things that is missing the most in our modern lives. We have an app for this and an app for that. What my hope and dream is, is that Bumble as a brand, as a company, becomes the way that we as humans rely on building a social graph in the real world. Not just hoarding friends online. How do you use Bumble to find a friend to get out and do something? If you met the love of your life on Bumble, you can still use BFF to find a book club, to find a group of girlfriends to go to Pilates with. This should be the anchor to your entire social in real life graph.

Yes. That is not due to lack of ability. That is an intentional strategy. We have really focused, and this has always been our philosophy, focus on building the base, focus on delivering an experience that people enjoy, and then you can find ways to monetize through a more robust or more enjoyable component of that product. And so we are going to start exploring monetization for BFF in '27. And that will look different than it does dating, because frankly, the way people come together socially and platonically is inherently different than the way they will pay for romance.

Yes. You should expect that. So we will start to roll out group dating hopefully at the tail end of the year, but definitely Q1 '27. Group dating will not look like the app that we had in college. What was that? Or post-college, Grouper. It won't be like that. This will be a more dynamic, modern way to essentially get out on group meetups and to meet as groups, but for romantic purposes.

Yes. That's where AI comes in. This is where Bee will be such a catalyst to help the folks that are like, 'Listen, I'm a great person, but I have no idea how to have a profile.' I mean, if you made me build a dating profile right now, I would not know where to begin, right? So that is such an opportunity, both from a revenue opportunity, but also just helping people show up better. That's table stakes here. We just want everybody to show up as the best version of themselves. Low-hanging fruit. How do we help people get better photos? How do we encourage people, 'Hey, listen, you're great. That photo is not doing any favors for you.' So that is-

No, no, no. Absolutely not. Everything is about authenticity. So things we will not do, which I think is important for people to hear in the era of AI, we will not let you falsify who you are with AI. You cannot have falsified photos with AI. You cannot use AI to message people. We will not be leaning into AI as a replacement to human connection. Our goal is to leverage AI to make love and connection more human. So how do we actually keep the components of humanity that are great, but help people get there easier? Because you made a great point. It's like some of the best people have no idea how to show up. That's where AI can help be a catalyst to them learning how to do it, or making a few small tweaks that they didn't even realize were pertinent or relevant to how they could get some better outcomes.

We showed our new product to a group of what I would consider the target demo, young Gen Z women. Unanimously, every single woman said, 'This is it. I will use this. This I will use.' And so we have been in the trenches with Gen Z, talking to them, hearing them, understanding what they don't like about Bumble, what they don't like about our competitors, what they don't like about dating in general. And we have put ourselves through this hybrid of a psychology and sociology experiment. We've gone so deep with what people want. And I would say my superpower is really understanding consumer behavior and seeing around the corner and being able to kind of pick up on that with women making the first move. That was precisely what made Bumble, Bumble. I believe we're on to the next horizon of that, and we have picked up on the thing that has been missing. It's so simple, but it's so powerful. And that will be the next product.

You know, it's so hard to give you the answer without kind of giving you the answer. And we wanna be delicate with how we roll this out towards the end of the year. We will not force one gender over another to do something first, but we will be basically bottling the essence of what was always meant to be women making the first move. A confident experience, a safe experience, a dynamic experience, to get you offline, in person, on great dates and meetups. The essence of that has been redesigned but very much intact, and now this is the next move. And that will be the core of how this new interaction model works.

So I think there's a misconception that we're trying to shrink and stay hyper-premium. That's certainly not the goal. We had to shrink to grow. That's always been the plan. Shrink, make a higher quality system, put the different checkpoints at the door, make sure that people are coming in of age essentially, right? That's the equivalent of being at a bar. Like, show up with your shirt and your shoes. Set those standards. And really make sure that we've reset that. Once we do that, it's all systems go. We are going for scale. I'm not playing small. I am definitely not trying to have a small, curated, high-premium member base only. I want every single person, literally every single, meaning not in a relationship, person, but it's a play on words, because I do also want every single person on Earth to be able to have Bumble in their pocket. And so scale is the name of the game. But in order to scale, again, we had to tighten the protocols. And that was a labor of love. It was tedious. It's been hard for investors to watch. But I've got a long-term horizon and a long-term strategy, and I think it's just one of those things where you've gotta take a deep breath and watch this play out because we do know what we're doing.

Probably not. I don't think that these apps that are just for vegans or just for a certain religion really have longevity, frankly. I mean, I hope they do well. I don't wish anyone to fail. But, you know, why do you need to go to a grocery store for just oranges when we can give you oranges, right? You don't need to do that. You can have a lot of things in the market and you can just choose to go there for that. And so I think that's really what we're focused on is how do we make sure the experience delivers what you want?

Yeah, so the other thing I would say is people are so funny. They think they know exactly what they want, but if you actually watch the behavior, the behavior of... This is a fascinating problem. People will filter, saying, I want this and I want that, I want this, I want that. You give them that, they don't want that person. They want somebody totally different. And so what's fascinating is people think they're seeking one thing, however, there are some non-negotiables. And this is what we've learned in our research with Arthur Brooks. If religion is a deal breaker for you, that matters. If marriage is important to you, that matters. If being a city person or living in the countryside, somewhere more rural, that matters. If you want children or don't, these are things that actually are make or break it. But these are more value-oriented, and we can deliver that to you through your preferences. You don't need to go and get on a stand-alone app for that. So that's really the benefit of scale, because we have so many people, and now with this precise next-gen recommendation layer, when we get to know you better and we know that these are the things that matter to you, our recommendation engine can just deliver you those people without you having to go seek it on an app for this or an app for that.

Absolutely.

We already have tremendous scale. You know, this is not a startup. We have millions and millions of people relying on us, every day, week, month. So we have the scale. It's just now about taking that scale to the next level. And there's always room for growth, right?

Yeah, so international's one of my top priorities for 2027. The moment our new product is ready, it's game over. I mean, I'm going global. Like, it has been such a difficult position for me. I'm a mover. I like to move. I like movement. I do not like to sit still. I like to make things big and important and amazing, and I like impact. Having this constraint with the backend technology has been one of the more difficult things I've ever had to navigate in business. There's no lack of ideas, there's no lack of amazing team members ready to execute. We had to get the system rebuilt. We are just weeks away from it now. The moment this new product is ready, it is back to the races we go. I mean, I think you've seen what I did in 2015 through the first early years of Bumble. There's no shortage of desire or ability, and we're gonna take this to the next level.

It's funny how these markets do differ. I would say that there seems to be more cultural burnout in America and fatigue than there is in the rest of the world. I'm not entirely sure what to attribute this to. I do think it is the anti-social behavior of social media. Everyone is staring at someone doing something that looks objectively better than what they're doing, when in reality we have no idea what these people are going through behind the screen. And so I think this is a huge focus of mine is just get people out of this dystopian the grass is always greener, staring at other people's lives on their phone and get them into their own life with interesting, relevant people in the real world. And so I think that we are poised to do this. And there's never been a more critical moment.

You know, that's a great question. You have to step away to get perspective in life. You have to. When you are so, when you're looking at something from the inside, it's very different than looking at something from the outside. And I could not be more grateful for the opportunity I had to really take a step out and look at the state of love, connection, as an outsider instead of an insider from the center of Bumble. And the one thing I will tell you that it gave me the most clarity on is, and Arthur Brooks just shared this on stage, we just spoke. The purpose of life and the center of happiness is that we want to love and we want to be loved. And relationships are that. So I feel so fortunate to be in a business that I feel solves a real critical human want, need, and desire.

You know, I think the biggest mistake I've probably made in my entire career is tricking myself into this notion that I need to be like more of like a corporate CEO. I'm not a corporate CEO. I am me, I am a builder. I imagine things, and I will break every wall down to make it happen. I don't need to be in a corporate box. And I think what happened as I came through the ranks, I was so little-girled by so many smart people around me, grownups, whatever you wanna call them in the executive world, that I felt this pressure to become like more like the seasoned executive and less like the dreamer that I am. And I lost my way a little bit. It made me insecure. I started second-guessing myself. And if you listen to some of the greatest founders of all time, they've gone through this. I'm certainly not saying I'm one of those. I'm not compared to them. But you know, there is this founder mode energy, as coined by Brian at Airbnb, who's amazing. You know, you shouldn't lose sight of who you are just to fit in with some next-level of your company. And I have come back as me. I have come back with my energy, not trying to be the person that some executive thought I should be. And I'm unapologetically ready to do this again. And that's been the best thing that has ever happened to me, is to be able to step away and come back truly as myself.

Oh my god, okay, so this is gonna sound maybe silly, but I'm completely obsessed with Ella Langley right now. You know, the country artist. Just saw her in concert. So do you remember that old song she had, I think it was from a couple years ago, and she talks about walking up to the guy at the bar, Riley Green? And she says, 'You look like you love me.' I keep thinking to myself, if I was single on an app right now, I think that is such a genius opener. Like, you look like you love me. It's so cute. It's so funny. Great, I mean, listen, like Ella coined it, but that's the essence of what this is all about. Just be confident, be yourself and, you know, don't take life too seriously.

Thank you for having me.