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Lisa Cook
Governor, Federal Reserve Board of Governors

Governor Cook moderates the “Emerging Innovation, AI and Financial Inclusion” panel, July 14, 2026

🎥 Jul 14, 2026 📺 Federal Reserve ⏱ 60m 👁 493 views
At the Next-Gen Financial Inclusion conference: https://www.federalreserve.gov/confer... The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United States. It performs five general functions to promote the effective operation of the U.S. economy and, more generally, the public interest. The Federal Reserve conducts the nation’s monetary policy to promote maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates in the U.S. economy; promotes the stability of the financial system and seeks to minimize and contain systemic risks through active monitoring and engagement in the...
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About Lisa Cook

Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook has focused recent public appearances on the intersection of artificial intelligence, financial inclusion, and small business economics. At a July 2026 panel on "Emerging Innovation, AI and Financial Inclusion," Cook stated that financial inclusion "connects directly to our dual mandate" and described AI as "central to my work at the Fed." She noted that the speed of AI adoption is "remarkable," citing a small business credit survey finding that nearly half of small employer firms reported using AI and 71% saw increased productivity. Cook also said she began holding roundtables with stakeholders in 2022, before ChatGPT appeared, because stakeholders "weren't talking to one another." In May 2026 remarks at the SIEPR Spring Policy Forum, Cook said inflation was "clearly moving in the wrong direction," estimating the PCE price index rose 3.8% over the 12 months ending in April, "well above our 2% target." She stated that she saw "elevated risks to both sides of our mandate" and believed "the right course of action is to hold rates steady," while adding she was "prepared to raise rates if the expected disinflation does not appear in a timely manner." Cook also warned that "AI-related job loss could precede job gains" and that the economy "could be approaching the most significant reorganization of work in generations." At the June 2026 State of Small Business Symposium, Cook highlighted that 99.9% of U.S. businesses have fewer than 500 employees and have accounted for 61% of net new job creation since 1995, emphasizing that achieving the dual mandate "will create the conditions where small businesses and all Americans can thrive."

Source: AI-verified profile updated from Lisa Cook's recent appearances. Browse all interviews →

Transcript (73 segments)
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Lisa Cook0:00
Good afternoon. Thank you, Governor Bar and Tim for your insights. A panel turns to one of the most consequential forces reshaping the economic landscape, artificial intelligence. We will explore AI's promise and risks for financial inclusion as this technology spreads through our financial system. As a Fed governor, I care deeply about financial inclusion because it connects directly to our dual mandate. When people have access to affordable credit, saving tools, and sound financial advice, they can participate more fully in the economy. The topic of AI and financial inclusion is central to my work at the Fed. as an FOMC member setting monetary policy, as chair of the financial stability committee, and as a member of the committee on consumer and community affairs. The speed of AI adoption is remarkable. In our most recent small business credit survey, nearly half of small employer firms reported using AI and 71% saw increased productivity. But we are still in the earliest stages of understanding how AI will reshape financial services. I am optimistic about AI's potential to demystify sophisticated financial tools. Around here at the Fed, I've been told I am too optimistic, but I'll take that. Historically, personalized financial advice and wealth management were available mainly to those who could afford them. AI can make high-quality financial guidance accessible to everyone regardless of income or wealth. But I have been asking hard questions about AI for several years before coming to the board. And we need to continue to ask hard questions. What happens when AI tools fail? Who is accountable? How do we ensure AI does not perpetuate existing biases in lending? How do we protect consumers data? Are the benefits reaching communities who need them the most? Every general-purpose technology from the steam engine to the internet has brought opportunities and disruptions. My research on innovation has shown that when access to new technologies is equitable and appropriate, guards exist, society benefits broadly. Today, we'll cover how consumers use AI for financial advice, how institutions deploy these tools, and which risks we need to mitigate. I'm eager to hear from our panelists about the remarkable possibilities and real challenges. First, allow me to introduce them. Starting to my immediate left, we have Sanjay Subermanian who leads PWC's technology alliance with Anthropic and the firm's global AI analyst relations practice. With over 25 years of experience, he helps large organizations put emerging technology to work. Sanjay will ground us in practical real-world applications of AI in business and banking today. Laura Blatner is head of impact at the bike shop at MIT. Now, you know, when I saw this, I got so excited because I used to live in Cambridge. When I was at Harvard, I had a bicycle and all those bike shops were closing. So, I thought finally one is opening. [laughter] Okay. And apparently this bike shop in Cambridge is elusive because this one is the bike shop at MIT and applied AI lab. still have to keep looking for them and advises he advises philanthropic funders on evaluation standards for AI products serving low-income Americans. Formerly a professor of finance at Stanford GSB, Laura brings the academic rigor we need to understand AI's deeper implications for financial inclusion. And then we have Sarah Willis Air. Sarah is executive vice president at Saverlife, a nonprofit financial technology company. Saverlife has developed an AI powered navigator tool to democratize personalized financial guidance. Sarah will help us understand how AI can serve consumers who need better financial tools the most. Thanks to each of you for being here today. Laura, let me start with you. So the bike shop research lab pairs behavioral science with AI research which is unusual. Why does behavioral science add when we think about AI and financial inclusion? What does it add?
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Laura Blatner5:10
Thanks Lisa. Excited to be part of the panel today. So, I like to say I keep a running list of AI products that you should not build. And at the lab, at the bike shop, we work with a lot of organizations helping them test and prototype AI tools. And when these products fail, it has usually very little to do with the technology, but everything to do with how we designed the product. Because ultimately what we're trying to do is we want to change behavior, right? We want to help people make better financial decisions, better education decisions, better health decisions. But it turns out changing behavior is really, really hard. So let me just give you one example of that from an organization we're currently working with. So this is a financial counseling organization that helps low-income workers. And when you look at the calls these counselors have with their clients, what strikes you is that, you know, maybe 20 minutes out of a 30-minute call is being spent on intake. You know, tell me about your spending. Why are you spending that much on a hairdresser? Like, tell me about your income. And so, the first thought you might have, well, that seems pretty inefficient. Can we just outsource that to an AI bot? can we just have you talk to an AI and then the financial counselor, you know, gets the perfect summary and already knows what's going on when they pick up the phone and talk to you. But let's flip that. So imagine you are the person talking to the counselor and this organization you've never heard of is asking you to talk to this AI bot that's asking you very intimate questions about your financial life. Why should you trust that thing? why should you spend your valuable scarce time on interacting with this AI tool? And so we quickly realized that that's not the way to go. In fact, the organization already has an intake flow that almost nobody uses when they first come into this counseling conversation. So what we're building instead is a tool that helps with intake once the counselor and the client are live on a call. So once the counselor had a chance to actually establish that trust, show the client what they can get out of the session, then it becomes very natural for a client to say, "Okay, yes, I want to give you my bank statements, my credit card statements. I want to tell you about my financial life." And at that point, we plug in the AI to help us crunch the numbers, digest in real time what the client is providing, and then flagging those places where the client and the coach can really dig in and figure out what's going on. And so what this and many examples we have seen at the bike shop have in common is that if we want to truly change behavior, we need to figure out what stands between a person and a better decision. And if that's not, you know, like a pure information problem, but something about an underlying fear or worry or some emotional barrier, then actually building a standalone AI tool is probably just going to be an expensive build that nobody uses. And just to tell you why we're called the bike shop is because we believe that the way we should be leveraging AI is actually by augmenting what a human can do. So, for example, augmenting what one of those financial counselors can do when they have a conversation with the client.
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Lisa Cook8:43
That was really smart, Laura, because when I saw a bike shop, I got this warm, cuddly feeling. So, thank you all for being thoughtful about that. Sarah, what are you learning about how low and moderate income households are actually using AI for financial decisionmaking? Are there any surprises in the types of questions they're asking?
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Sarah Willis Air9:06
There are many surprises, Governor Cook. And by the way, we not only share your optimism in the potential here, but we're also seeing it real time. So, for those of you that don't know Saver Life, which I find are not that many recently, we've historically focused on building savings and financial security across a really wide range of low to moderate income consumers. We're across all 50 states. We're digital 800,000 members to date. So, pretty large swath. And when we started to think about where AI can benefit our members, the number one challenge that we saw our members facing in addition to all of the things that you economists and researchers know well like affordability and cost of living and inequality was the complexity of financial decisionmaking. The constant nature of decisions, whether it's consequential like where to go to school, how much student debt to take out, or it could seem really minor because life threw you a curveball and you don't know how to pay for your father's funeral expenses, right? And so these decisions don't come with a user manual. And even if one could exist, people aren't going to be able to have the time [laughter] and the fortune to review that manual. And so when we deployed this we call it a navigator, this tool across our membership, we saw a number of really surprising things. So Laura, you touched on trust. This is interesting and Tim mentioned that consumers are more likely to trust potentially AI based on the provider it's coming from. Saver Life, a nonprofit. We've been around a long time. We have a really deep relationship with our members. So, when we launched the MVP of this tool, not a single member, again noting they were a highly engaged subset of our membership, opted out of the personalization that we were offering. So, we asked them, would you like us to pull in your transaction data? Would you like us to pull in your goals that you've given us during onboarding? would you like us to analyze how you've used our app in the past? What type of articles you've read? What type of actions you've taken? And no one opted out. So that was really interesting. Secondly, we noticed that people were coming back repeatedly not just for the one-off kind of question and that the questions that they were asking the AI navigator were not, you know, basic financial literacy questions that are, you know, something you can Google or you can ask your parents about. They were, hey, I'm in this situation. Maybe it's debt. Maybe I'd like to buy my first home and I want to know what to do next. I don't want 10 different recommendations that I could do. I want the AI to do the heavy lifting for me and give me that one next step. And so that's what we've tried to build with this navigator is to really streamline the complexity, give them the one next best step. And interestingly enough, that is yielding significant results in terms of likelihood to act. So for those that received an AI generated recommendation, they're 10 times more likely to take up that recommendation. In this test case, it was referral to a credit counselor like a Green Path or an MMI type entity. And I know, you know, this is the crux of the matter when you're talking about matters of stigma and shame, which debt brings a lot of that. People are usually likely to kind of put their head in the sand as opposed to take action. So that's been really fascinating to see the uptake. And then our core outcomes that we've always been seeing with our kind of one-size-fits-all model now with AI are accelerated. So, people are saving more $200 median increase in savings prior three months without using the AI navigator. And they're depositing about half of them are depositing over $500. And so again, the famous $400 Fed rallying cry of the sector, we're seeing people overcome that barrier through some really personalized, actionable, and empathetic support.
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Lisa Cook14:01
That's fascinating. You work directly with Sanjay, we're returning to you. You work directly with the teams building today's frontier AI. What can these systems now reliably do with someone's money and where does the hype still outrun reality when it comes to financial inclusion in particular?
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Sanjay Subermanian14:23
It's a great question. I think you know I was thinking of the comment that Tim had made and Governor Bar talked about in terms of people have the need to feel competent. They want to feel they're more knowledgeable at the end. And so I was, you know, when I think about myself, I spent the weekend, I was helping my dad with his finances. And I was able to build something to teach him, not only to understand him as a person, the questions he had to deal with, but also help him understand why, you know, where those sources were coming from so he could independently research and validate it. and then to understand what his options were and what the impacts of those were because my goal was to help him feel confident and competent and not undermine him and suddenly become the father to the son right in that moment. So how do I do that in a thoughtful way but then at the same time I'm thinking about and so one of the greatest things that you've seen today is the ability to teach and to coach but I'm able to do that because of my life experiences and what I'm able to do. So, how does someone who doesn't have that experience know the questions to ask, know that what they're getting back is valid? And I think that's where I think there is increasing focus from a lot of the technology companies to make that more transparent, to help educate and to make the ability to teach and help people understand something that is much more democratized. I'm seeing that with a lot of the frontier companies that I'm working with that are trying to help people understand how to minimize that digital divide that we're seeing. Right? There is a lot to do in that space. Right? Those that aren't doing a good job don't focus on that. They focus on the marketing. They focus on what looks good. They focus on what works in a demo. But it doesn't work for that edge case. it doesn't work that 10th time or that 20th time and they don't follow the answers. Right? So, I just think that was so well put. You know, people want to feel competent. They want to feel in control. And then once you have that, we've got these devices on, you know, we all have our devices. We have the technological access. We don't have the knowledge to know how to use it in the most thoughtful way. Once we do that, that's going to unlock a lot of inclusion.
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Lisa Cook16:47
So, it's interesting. I hear all of you, all three of you saying some version of information is power and you can empower people not by telling them what to do but by giving them the options and letting them use what is uniquely human and that's the decision making capacity. That's what I'm here and that can be empowering. That's great to hear. So I'd like to ask a question to the entire panel. So I'd like all of your views for this next question. The perspective of the work that you're doing is fascinating. How have you seen AI benefit consumers in the context of financial services? You want to start?
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Sanjay Subermanian17:41
We talked about education. I think also and you're living this in a day-to-day basis is that the old financial system was not built for the edge cases. It was built. It was a great analogy that I heard the other day. It was sort of this imagine a world in which you have you know every person goes through multiple choice questions. As long as you could answer A, B, C or D, you could fit into that system. But if you didn't, you couldn't fit into that system, right? And so now with the alternative data that was talked about and looking at alternative ways of measuring a person, the generative AI is built and LLMs are built to understand the messy, the complicated and piece together something unique about the context of someone's life and what they need and then to make recommendations as a result of that. Suddenly there's a price point that allows that to happen in a thoughtful way. So that's why you're seeing a lot more products that are there. So, I think the economics that we're seeing, it's not just about access. It's also just allowing markets to open up and people to be touched in a different way that they weren't before.
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Lisa Cook18:55
And you're seeing that right in the work that you're doing.
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Sanjay Subermanian18:58
Yeah, absolutely. I think to take it even further, the onus now is back on the provider, so to speak, where it always should have been, frankly. Less so okay we're going to help educate consumers to navigate this entirely somewhat unnecessarily complex system that we've built up as Governor Bar said designed around usually more affluent customers and so now I think in order to remain competitive and also think about lifetime value of a customer and kind of increasingly what consumers are going to expect from financial service providers will be to design around lower income use cases and in a way that the kind of augmentation of AI to assist with their kind of confidence guide them to the right direction combined with kind of products and services that truly meet their needs is going to be more of the winning fit and institutions themselves. Saver Life were quite small but we can see when people have negative balance events right and unfortunately it's on the rise. Take a large bank any number of the top three they can see this data on the back end. Obviously, we've had the machine learning capabilities all along, but what would it look like if we proactively talk to our customers, right? Say like, okay, it looks like you've recently had loss of income, right? How can we help? I know some of the they're not fintechs, neo banks, not banks, but tech companies, I won't name names are doing this, right? And I think that is the big opportunity here is like providers have access to this data if only the business case and incentives can be organized around what is ultimately best for the consumer. But unfortunately I think that's actually the hill that we still face.
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Lisa Cook21:17
How about you Laura?
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Laura Blatner21:23
So I think where I am most excited about the impact of AI is bringing the expertise that currently lives in the heads of very few people to a lot more people. So Sarah mentioned MMI and let me give you another example of something we're working on. So MMI provides these debt management plans, right? Help people pay back some of their unsecured debt by lowering payments. And one of the challenges they see that a lot of folks who should be eligible and who we think would benefit from this don't actually make it through and sign up. And so what we noticed working with them is that there's a few debt counselors who are somehow amazing at addressing these fears, working with a client, you know, talking about why the influencer on TikTok didn't get it right. and they really managed to convert people and have them sign up to these plans who the people then successfully complete. And so we wanted to know can we learn what these outstanding counselors are doing and can we help every other counselor adopt these very same techniques. So, we were able to find in the large corpus of calls that this that MMI has already recorded, find instances of specific behavior that really seems to work, a specific phrasing of how to address a client's fear, a specific way of connecting to them about their past history. And then right now we're building a tool that takes those insights and uses AI to find opportunities in conversations to apply these kinds of tricks and tips and surfaces that through an application to every other counselor in the organization. So I think that's a great example of taking something that is in the heads of a few people and making that knowledge and that skill available to a lot more people to successfully apply.
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Lisa Cook23:20
So, it's empirically based. Really is empirically based. So that is connected to my next question for you, Laura. It's easy to build an AI model that gives financial advice. It's hard to know whether the advice is good. How do you close that gap? Is this the way you close that gap by depending on empirical evidence?
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Laura Blatner23:44
Absolutely. So I live in San Francisco and all our highway billboards have been taken over by various AI companies, but there's one near the Bay Bridge I actually like and I'll rephrase it for the purpose of the answer, which is without evals, your AI financial advisor is just expensive advice trained on Reddit. So the work at the lab we're doing right now is helping organizations build these applied AI evaluations or in the billboard lingo we call them evolves and evals are very different from two other things I see a lot of people spending effort on. one just these benchmarks, right? You may have seen these leaderboards. Think of these as standardized tests about, you know, can our LLM answer basic financial literacy questions correctly? And then the other one is sort of the kind of impact evaluation where one group has the AI, one group doesn't. Does the person with the AI tool do better 12 months later? Both of these are very useful, but neither of them really helps you close that gap, you know, build that better AI product. And so let me give you just an example of what this applied eval thing would look like if let's say we were building that AI financial advisor. So the first thing it needs to do, it needs to actually talk to you and learn about you and learn about your financial life. So the first metric or the first eval I might want to build is say how good is it at doing that. So, I might create a couple hundred use cases or user cases from the actual users I'm trying to serve and say, okay, how well does the AI do when talking to that person at actually getting all of the relevant information? And how many questions does it take to get there? Right? If my AI is going to ask you 150 questions, I've already lost you. So, those might be my first couple emails. How well does the tool do at actually asking you questions efficiently? And then once the tool has all that information, I'm going to ask how well does it do to Sarah's point about reasoning about that information, right? Like what's the actual thing you should be doing? Not just 10 recommendations, like a single recommendation. So I might be building again a separate set of test cases that are deliberately made to be quite difficult. So maybe I have one case where increasing your 401k contribution limit is absolutely the right idea and then a similar looking case where the person looks like they should be increasing that 401k contribution but actually they just mentioned that their car is likely going to need major repairs and you can see that they don't have the cash flow to pay for that. So likely they would be running up credit card debt if they were to now increase their 401k contribution. So that would be a case where you would not want the AI to recommend increasing that contribution. So again, you would construct very real cases like that and you would ask, can the AI successfully reason relative to what an experienced human financial adviser would do, can the AI match that recommendation? And so you would build a whole stack of metrics that we would call evolves that allow you to actually query your product repeatedly and figure out how well is it doing on all of these various capabilities you wanted to have and that allows you to both test and improve your product iteratively.
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Lisa Cook27:17
So that's really interesting. So what about reliability? So you have these AI models that are interactive and they're learning and they're giving advice, but one of the issues is doing that consistently. So how do you make sure that these tools are reliable using the framework that you just articulated?
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Laura Blatner27:49
Again, I would say it's an iterative process, right? So think of it as you become more trusting of your product, you see it interact with more and more users. You can start slowly pulling back the guardrails. Think of it like we test new drugs, right? When we first develop a new drug, we have no idea how this thing is going to do when given to real people. So we give it to a very small number of people and we very closely monitor what happens. And as we start becoming more confident that this thing isn't having any bad side effects, we start to slowly increase the number of people that we're willing to test it with. And so I think something similar is what we would recommend. You know, start with a very small controlled experimental setting where you can really check almost every case. Then as you start becoming more confident that it's relatively reliable, you can start automating some of these monitors. I just talked about these applied evolves and you can have humans maybe look at some targeted cases that you're particularly worried about and if you're still seeing good reliable performance you can increase the user pool and even pull back further the monitors you have to rely on. So again think of it as we learn by doing because fundamentally we have no clue about the reliability properties of these models. So the only hope we have is try and build as many empirical evaluation tests that we can run live on the product and then be very disciplined about growing our user base and how we monitor and test the ongoing performance of the tool.
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Lisa Cook29:25
If I can I just want to ask one quick question. When you say that you're using behavioral science, are you mainly using behavioral economics or are you reaching out into other fields?
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Laura Blatner29:46
I think we want to bring the insights from whichever field that helps us build better products. Sure. And so I think we have learned a lot from behavioral economics in the last couple decades about how to design successful interventions that we believe we can bring to building AI interventions and AI tools. But if there is a smart insight from another field, I think we should learn and we should be open to any insight that we think is going to move the quality bar for everybody.
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Lisa Cook30:16
Okay. So you hit the daily double. Economists can't be trusted with everything. we're, you know, we can't be trusted all the time [laughter] and we do need to reach deeply into other fields. So you went it was a rhetorical question. [laughter]
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Laura Blatner30:32
I was wondering that.
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Sanjay Subermanian30:34
Say that there is, you know, just feeding off of what Laura painted a very clear and consistent picture in terms of how to think about this. One of the things we're seeing is there's an ability right now like so for example in that farmer
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Laura Blatner30:49
Model to in order to reduce time to value of creating synthetic data and basically looking through and sort of saying where do I start, where are the places where I think I can reduce cost and really focus and get something out there quickly. So similarly, you can create these use cases. You can, and we're seeing this, the ability to create tens of thousands of edge cases and seeing where they would fail, creating automatic evaluators and trying to have different perspectives. You could have like what is a good plan. You could have a tax someone is looking at purely from a tax perspective.
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Sanjay Subermanian31:22
And saying this is good or bad from a tax perspective, purely from a hey I want high growth, someone saying well no wait a second, you want to be a bit more conservative here because you want to make it through those tough moments where you need to replace your car tire.
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Laura Blatner31:34
Right? And so you can run all of those different scenarios and then you can start to focus on I think this is where I want to get things done, right? So it's I think so there's the human in the loop which is key.
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Sanjay Subermanian31:46
There is back testing against existing use cases where you're comfortable with the answers which is key.
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Laura Blatner31:51
But it's also.
Situations change, data change, models change over time and there is drift. So it's very important to continually have also automatic valuation and transparency as you go through this.
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Lisa Cook32:06
You gonna say something?
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Sanjay Subermanian32:08
Yeah, I was going to add well first of all it sounds like Laura as you described the best approach here. I was feeling like okay our engineering team and our product team have done right by this. These are all words I hear all the time. I don't necessarily always understand what eval mean, but thanks for clarifying. We too also came at this from an overly cautious perspective. Even though we're not making lending decisions, which I know tends to be the trickiest area to apply AI, we didn't want.
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Sarah Willis Air32:48
We took it one step beyond do no harm and said we're only allowing the model to pull from really trusted sources at first, right?
It still is only pulling from trusted sources, but we're like slowly ungating it. Because again, it's this tension of if you limit it too much, is it going to be valuable?
If you let it go wild, which nothing wild happening in this building, then again negative things can happen. So one of the things I was going to say is while we're kind of thinking about the use cases around kind of the financial health outcomes that we're all striving to move forward.
The use cases are just like expansive beyond that, right? Whether it's public benefits, it's thinking about where to choose your college degree, which student debt to take out of, how to even prepare yourself mentally before walking into the financing office when you're buying a car.
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Lisa Cook33:54
Oh yeah.
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Sarah Willis Air33:54
For anyone who's done that, that is like.
Scary moment. And so we often think about this concept of like okay how can AI be a bridge to humans as well and so it's enhancing judgment, I like what you said Laura, enhancing judgment not replacing it, right? We don't think we'll do ourselves any favor by replacing human judgment and agency.
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Lisa Cook34:26
Depends on.
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Laura Blatner34:26
Depends the human.
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Lisa Cook34:27
Depends on the women. [laughter]
Exactly.
Yes.
In general. In general. In general.
Um, so that's really interesting because we can certainly think of different tools that could be helpful. I mean the example that you bring up, Carbine has a large literature in economics and basically I've decided to outsource car buying to somebody else like Costco.
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Laura Blatner35:01
Right?
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Lisa Cook35:02
So that's a suggestion that's a recommendation because I'm going to there's a dollar value put on how much I would lose if I were to do it myself. And I know what kind of trouble I would get in if I were bargaining for a car. So outsourcing it is absolutely the best thing. So that's right. It does depend on the human. Absolutely. But the car buying example I think is really instructive. So Sarah, let's turn to you. You emphasize designing AI to support consumers rather than replace their judgment for high stakes financial decisions. Have you approached responsible AI and guards while building the financial navigator?
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Sarah Willis Air35:45
Yeah, I was touching on this a little bit. But for every opportunity there is out there to make economic mobility gains, there's probably 10x opportunities to also see backsliding and to take risks that you're not even aware of. Right now you've been in the conversations which I'm sure you're hearing like sports betting, prediction markets, other things that sound like gambling are extremely prevalent.
And being built in a way that is riding on the existing rails of the financial sector. And so when we've thought about our AI navigator, we don't want to discount someone's idea, right? If they're asking the robot about crypto or sports betting or prediction markets, but what we try to do is redirect. We try and go back to, okay, you told us your goal was to buy a home or whatever they have told us, and try and get them back to a low-risk personalized approach for them. But this is really tricky because you also don't want to like again.
We should balance the consumer protection with the opportunities in AI. The other thing that we're thinking about a lot is over the years there's been this business model kind of creeping in around like take NerdWallet. What perhaps used to be more of just a trusted source of comparisons and information now feels a little bit more like okay, I'm being pushed into these products and they're benefiting financially. And so at Saver Life, we're really careful not to take, even though it's attractive, there's potential revenue to be had, we're really careful not to take on any referral partners where it's going to potentially compromise why we would recommend something to one of our members. And so we're constantly vetting and revetting and rethinking our evaluation frameworks for what is actually going to be helpful for a low to moderate income audience. And so it extends beyond just the AI navigator and kind of who we partner with and how we think about passing them on to other organizations.
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Lisa Cook38:25
So one thing I hear you three saying too was that the iterative process is absolutely fundamental. I mean the testing, certainly I was saying to you all when we had an earlier conversation, the thing that I absolutely hate because I have to interact with these AI tools all the time is the lack of testing and just sort of, and this isn't even for low and moderate income users specifically, but the care that's taken is appreciated. And I'd like to just say I mentioned the name of a car buying service. That was not meant to be product placement. So, you know, we are here at the Fed. So a car, a generic car buying service. So let me clean that up. Okay. So, Sarah, beyond engagement, what early evidence are you seeing that personalized AI guidance may be influencing financial behaviors or outcomes?
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Sarah Willis Air39:27
Yeah, so as I was saying, early results are really promising. We have of our broader member population, we have 50,000 active users on this navigator, so pretty sizable. They're linking their accounts at greater rates. So we enable them to link their bank accounts, savings accounts. Now we're onboarding liability, so we'll have a viewpoint into their debt profiles. And like I said, our bread and butter outcomes that Saver Life has been known for are just accelerating. It's faster. They're saving more. And again, we're not saying keep the savings because it's there for a reason, right? And we're also seeing, like I said, an increased willingness to share their stories with us through our advocacy panels and our surveys. By the way, when we open surveys, we have to shut them down within like 24 hours because people are so eager to share their experiences with us. And then we can act as a megaphone. So high engagement.
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Lisa Cook40:35
We need those survey respondents over at BLS.
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Sarah Willis Air40:39
We incentivize them. So that goes back to the AI navigator, right? Money speaks. So the 40% of the chat engagement that we're seeing ties back to how do I increase my income? So that kind of gives you a sense of the motivation behind jumping in. But I also am not that pessimistic that it's just about money. I think people genuinely feel like if I can share my experiences, maybe it's going to translate to better policy outcomes or different ways products and services being designed. So I think the bottom line for us that we've proven out in these early days is when you design, whether it's a product service or in our case an AI guidance bot, if you design it with people's ambition, their realities where they're at in life, they're much more likely to take action, right? It's not a failed endeavor or a wasted effort. To Laura's comment, like don't build it because it's just not going to do much. So if you build it anchored in the reality and the need, again, this is kind of product 101, but you'd be surprised how often it's not happening. So really promising results. More to come.
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Lisa Cook42:15
Okay.
From Saver Life. Yeah. There's a question that I'd like to ask the three of you. But before I do that, one common question about how your lessons apply to potentially other organizations. But Sanjay, before we run out of time, I'd like to ask you one first. So you sit close to where capital flows, including private equity, are products for underserved communities have always been hard to fund because the economics were thin, or let me be more careful about that. The traditional way these are measured might be thin, right? Is AI really changing which products get built for these customers or just making the old ones cheaper to run?
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Sanjay Subermanian43:08
Um, both. I think there's an efficiency play to that, but then there's also an access play. So the reality is if it costs you on average for every $100 of time and effort to spend on acquiring and maintaining a customer, if you only make $40, you're not going to have that product. So there's a little bit of that. I think the comments that were made earlier about alternative data that can now be analyzed can create a much more complete picture or a different picture of someone who has irregular income, right? Who maybe pays the utility bill on time all the time or has their phone bill all the time, but doesn't have a house, doesn't have all these traditional methods, but now can get access to the right types of financial products. That is something that is more there. I think it also links into this whole concept of trust. You're seeing a lot of these companies trying to go straight to the consumer, to consumers that they wouldn't have tackled before because now they are capable of doing that. And I also think it's not just a cost thing, but everything we've talked about, there is a trust problem in this country in general. People lack trust in institutions, in people, in 101 different things. And if we can, as Laura said, provide information that's sitting in the heads of so many people into the hands of the consumer, if we can provide access and transparency in a way that they can access it without having to pay a lot of money to do so and have confidence, then all of a sudden you're going to see more of this. So am I seeing this happening today in a way that I'd want it to? No. But am I very confident about what I'm seeing, the conversations that I'm having in the rooms of people that are building things and what their objectives are? Yes, I am.
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Lisa Cook45:12
Okay. Good. Good. So the common question that I wanted to ask all of you before I get to the last question is how would you advise other institutions, organizations who would like to augment financial inclusion? What would you tell them about the lessons you've learned from your own endeavors? Why don't we start with you, Laura?
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Laura Blatner45:43
Two things and I think they echo what I've been talking about. So the first one is really ask, is the problem here a technology friction or a technology problem? Because often it is not. Often it is something more rooted in behavioral challenges, it's a trust issue, it is a lack of time. The previous panel mentioned the scarcity problem and AI can sometimes help, but more often than not I think I see a lot of lazy product design where we just sort of say, oh, the AI can solve it, but it doesn't fundamentally solve the scarcity, the attention challenges, the fear people bring to some of the questions especially around financial health. So really engaging with the people you are trying to serve, I think would be the first one. And then the second one is build evals, right? I think we've seen that there is an improvement in product quality when you build that careful evaluation framework. And I think Saver Life is a wonderful example of the benefit you can bring to your users if you do that. And there are a lot of nitty-gritty lessons we learned along the way that I think we are increasingly trying to share out with everyone. To Sanjay's point, an automated grader is great, but if you try to build an AI grader that says, 'Was this AI interview coach doing a good job at giving feedback?' You're probably not going to get a very good AI grade because what does good feedback even mean? But if you build an automated grader that says, 'Okay, great if your AI interview coach gives only a single piece of feedback in response to the question you just answered.' Because more than one piece of feedback most of us can't handle, right? That suddenly becomes a very good automated grader because that's a kind of complexity that an LM can reasonably detect very well in a transcript it's trying to score. So my two lessons are really understand is this a technology friction, and if you have identified a good place for AI to plug in, build evals.
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Lisa Cook47:47
So just one follow-up question then. The use of synthetic data is something that Sanjay was talking about and it's spread very widely. Is that something that you all use in your evals?
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Laura Blatner48:07
We do, but we try to be smart about it. Right. So if I'm trying to build an interview coach and I have a single interview that I recorded between Sanjay and Sarah and I'm asking the AI to create a thousand more conversations like that, I'm probably not going to have very good synthetic data because I just copied the same conversations a thousand times. But if I take really good care and I record very many conversations among the kinds of people I think will be using my tool and I ask the AI to create thousands of copies of that very representative initial pool, then I think we can make a lot of progress that way. Right? So again, I think synthetic data usage is great, but you got to be smart about how you use it and how you construct it.
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Sanjay Subermanian48:51
Right. It goes into whatever you do, you got to have it. You got to be purposeful. You got to have a strategy. It's got to be defensible. I've got to be able to take this, hand it to my technologist, and also be able to hand it to Aurora and say, 'Hey, does this make sense?' And then if they both say yes, great. But if it doesn't, then I'm making stuff up. And that's not helpful.
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Lisa Cook49:12
Yeah. Never helpful.
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Laura Blatner49:14
Never helpful.
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Lisa Cook49:17
Sarah, what about you? What are some lessons for other organizations?
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Sarah Willis Air49:23
Taking it up to even a higher level. When you think about advice, thinking about we all have a stake in financial inclusion. We're all sitting here talking about it all day spending our time together. I think it's don't always assume we know what is driving the problems for folks. We spend lots of our time just trying to listen to our members. We're in conversation directly through our surveys, which they're very responsive, and just kind of mining the data. And often times because we're not going in with a specific hypothesis of what we think, we find that oh, the reason people are having income disruptions is not because of the current economy. Oh, it's because they live in a disaster-prone area and they work outside and they can't work when there's a storm. And so we often find the language we use in these settings isn't translating to the people that we're trying to serve. So we're constantly trying to take it from their framework and then reapply it back to what we're doing. So that would be the big one, as well as just not thinking about financial inclusion as a standalone lever in the economy. I was previously a funder for 10 years in corporate corporations, JPMC and MetLife. And I spent all my days just trying to convince people that financial health and financial inclusion are a means to an end. We need to be partnering with the income side of the house. I was at Jobs for the Future yesterday. Again, the workforce sectors over here, the financial sector over here, housing's over here. Again, you can't maybe boil the ocean, so I understand why we silo these things, but at the end of the day, they're all interconnected. And consumers don't think about approaching their financial health one day and then their housing stability the next day and then their income the third day. It's all everything all at once. So we should be thinking about it that way, too.
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Lisa Cook51:41
Right. Right. Agree. Do you want to?
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Sanjay Subermanian51:45
I think in addition to those points, you got to be purposeful. It's one thing to say it, another thing to live it. And to be focused because you can't solve every problem. And financial inclusion is obviously not just about access to information. There are so many other things that go into that. And I also think that for each and every one of us, as Governor Cook said, it should be part of what's expected of us as individuals, as citizens, as workers, as students, that we need to understand, embrace it, understand what strengths and weaknesses are and how you can't teach, you can't help, you can't bring someone into this world using AI unless you live in it yourself. You have to understand it, experience it, and then you can calibrate what makes sense because it's going to make sense to you because you're now finally speaking that same language. So that's what I would add to it.
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Lisa Cook52:43
Thank you. So the final question is this one. Everyone on the stage owns a piece of this: the labs, the funders, the people building products, and the regulators. From your view across the whole ecosystem, what does each of them most need to get right so that AI widens access without leaving people more exposed?
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Sanjay Subermanian53:09
I think the model providers need to ensure rigorous testing and guard rails of what they're building and transparency in terms of the information that they're using and collecting. The folks that are building the capabilities need to do all of the things that this table has talked about, because once they've rolled it out to the consumer, it's one thing to have a great demo, it's another thing for it to work in production. I think from a regulatory environment, I'm not one to tell regulators what to do. It's a complicated technology world. We don't know where the technology is going to be. We're going to have to both watch and let things evolve, but also be relatively independent, know when to jump in. But at the end of the day, I think it's incumbent upon all of us that the technology we have that is here can help the people that need it the most, can also hurt the people in the easiest way. And we've seen that. So we all have a duty as citizens to care and to do what we can to make sure that we're doing what we can.
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Lisa Cook54:28
That seems pivotal to trust. Crucial for trust.
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Sarah Willis Air54:34
Yeah. Since you touched on the point of testing and evaluation and guard rails so nicely, I would go back to the point I was arguing earlier. At the end of the day, it's probably not one individual sector or institution. And having very open dialogue. This is such a fast-moving phenomenon happening to us all. We've never really been in this situation before. And so to be open to partnerships, to not again, when you have the fortune of being in the nonprofit side, you could argue collaboration is built intrinsically, but it's not always the case. We often feel like we're competing for the same funding, so it's not always intrinsically motivated to partner. But I think I've talked with a number of folks in this room about okay, what are the use cases we are all really fired up about and how do we put some structure around this and how do we do it with people in the loop? And I don't mean from a sense of testing. I just mean talking to consumers while we're doing it. I think that's paramount. I can't tell you how many tech conferences I've been at over the years where I'm there for like two hours before a human story comes up around a human. So again, I think we have to bring that back to the forefront in order to get this right.
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Lisa Cook56:19
Great. Laura, what about you?
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Laura Blatner56:24
I think the good news is that a lot of the economic incentives actually point in the right direction. So if you look at things like customer service or legal service, the top AI companies are effectively competing on better evals, right? Because that's what makes their product better, more reliable. But I think we also got to be realistic that the kinds of approaches that Sarah and Sanjay were describing today, they cost money. They will slow you down. They're not always appreciated by the people who are funding you. And so I think we cannot expect that uniformly every organization, every company will be automatically doing the right thing. And so I think similar to how model risk management practices eventually got regulated and codified, I do think there's a role to play here for policy and regulation to ensure that we are setting high standards and that we're enforcing these high standards.
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Lisa Cook57:21
Agreed. Agreed. So I would just like to add one thing as a regulator. One thing that I walked in the door doing at the Fed in 2022, even before ChatGPT appeared, was holding roundtables across the country with all the stakeholders because I noticed that they weren't talking to one another. So to your point about collaboration, you can't understand what people really need, what communities really need, unless you're talking to them and they're talking to each other. So this siloed thing, I've been in an academic career on an academic campus my entire career. I know about silos. People can live in silos. And for this moving so quickly, we really have to understand what everybody's learning as quickly as possible. And I understand that there are proprietary considerations, but I think a lot of those can be surmounted, especially when you're in a forum like this or a forum like we used to put together around the country and that I'm still putting together around the country. So this is community colleges, this is AI firms, this is venture capital folks, this is nonprofits who invest using these alternative data. And I think we don't necessarily have to use alternative data anymore because I think they're not so alternative anymore. So the data that we have access to, we have so many more data series available to us. So I would say as a regulator, we've got to get people talking to one another. That's our public role. The convening power of the Fed is one thing that I try to leverage, and I think other regulators can do the same. And we have to keep a human in the middle, we have to have these guard rails, we have to promote sandboxes. And it sounds like this is what you all are doing. You know, you're trying out a small sample and then you keep iterating to learn more from a larger sample. And from economics, although I just bashed it, that is a good habit to have and to hone. So anyway, I saw the five-minute marker go up just some time ago. So why don't I actually do something that is rarely done in such a forum: let me thank our guests. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you for your insights and thank you so much for your work. We couldn't get this all done without you. Thank you all and thank you all for attending. [applause]