CEOInterviews.AI44 frågor till Avanzas nya vd Gustaf Unger

H

Host0:00

It's always fun to have distinguished guests in the studio, but it's a little extra fun when it's our own new CEO who joins us. So a warm welcome, we say, to Gustaf Unger. Thank you very much. How does it feel to be here?

G

Gustaf Unger0:11

No, it feels professional. Lots of cameras, lots of microphones, and it feels professional.

H

Host0:17

Yes, fun. We've worked hard on that. When we had Sven Hagström as a guest a few weeks ago, he told us about a morning routine he has to stay up to date with the market. Do you have any such morning routine?

G

Gustaf Unger0:31

Well, I have a wife who wakes up hungry, so our morning routine is we get up quite early and then it's down to the kitchen to make breakfast.

H

Host0:40

That sounds cozy. Reading the newspapers? So a proper breakfast. Absolutely, it's important for me. But you've been working here for just over a month. How does it really feel?

G

Gustaf Unger0:50

Yes, I'm a bit of a stock and securities nerd, so I think I've landed in the right place. 660 colleagues who are passionate about saving and investing, and almost two million customers to try to make their financial lives a little better. I think it's super fun. And it feels good with the tasks, and you've gotten into it. But I might be in that dangerous phase where I think I know more than I actually do, because I've still only been here a short time.

H

Host1:22

Yes, that's true. It's only been a month. You've gone through an interim report, among other things. How did that feel?

G

Gustaf Unger1:33

Well, it was a bit exciting because I had only worked four days that quarter, so it's a bit harder to speak with passion about those numbers because I hadn't been part of producing much myself. So it will be even more fun next time, I understand.

H

Host1:48

I thought we'd get to know you with some quick short questions. The first one: Are you a morning or evening/night person?

G

Gustaf Unger1:58

Yes, I'm a boring morning person. And do you prefer listening to podcasts or reading a book? I should say podcast since I'm sitting here with you, but I'm probably more of a book person. And is it a regular book or audiobook? No, it's actually regular old-school paper books. Is it sun or ski vacation? The most important thing is that there is activity, so preferably a sun vacation with water sports. And are you a calling or texting person? No, I call. I prefer to call. Growth or profitability? Oh, you need both, and you know that, but I'm quite optimistic and looking to the future, and growth is a bit more forward-looking, so I'll say growth.

H

Host2:48

Good answer. Yes, very good answer. I was afraid you would say profitable growth and such, but we wouldn't have bought that. You have to choose. Yes, but you can still say that both are actually the recipe for success. So that would have been okay too. But it's fun with growth, and we are profitable. But we're going to talk a bit more about who you are, Gustaf, because I know many listeners are curious about you, not only because you are the CEO of Avanza, but also because you are actually a listed company CEO now. But we'll start with you as a person. How would you describe yourself?

G

Gustaf Unger3:27

I am 51 years old, three children, a wife, and live out in Nacka. Inquisitive, I would say. Passionate about learning new things. A bit nerdy. Happy, positive, optimistic. And quite stable. It's hard to get me off balance, I think. That's a good quality.

H

Host3:56

Mm. Have you succeeded so that you get balance, or should one say that if you do, then you've done something wrong?

G

Gustaf Unger4:00

Well, with two... Now I only have one teenager, but I had another earlier who has grown past that phase, so I've been tested. Absolutely, it's possible to get me off balance, but I think I'm typically quite calm and stable.

H

Host4:16

Mm. You've touched on what you like to do in your free time, going to the sun, preferably water sports. Elaborate on that because we want to hear about your hobbies.

G

Gustaf Unger4:27

Yes, I think it's fun with a bit of adrenaline when I'm free, and it's fun with water. So I like windsurfing, and I've gotten both sons to join me in different places. They've become very good. And kitesurfing is fun too. Paddled a bit of kayak yesterday. But frozen water is also fun, with ice skating and skiing, preferably with the family when I can get everyone together. That's a bonus.

H

Host4:56

Mm. How long does it take to become decent? Does it require those 10,000 hours before it works? Because it feels like it's quite difficult.

G

Gustaf Unger5:05

Yes, I think so. That's probably why I think other sports take over, at least from windsurfing, because I started when I was 14 and built my own board with my little brother and have been practicing ever since. So it unfortunately takes a bit of time, but the payoff is big when you get out and play in big waves.

H

Host5:25

I was just about to ask you, how did you get into windsurfing? It's not very common, especially not in the Stockholm area. It's more of a west coast sport.

G

Gustaf Unger5:35

But I sailed a lot, I still sail, but I sailed a lot when I was little. And then there was a Swedish windsurfer, Anders Bringdal, who was top three in the world, whom I looked up to, and I tried to build a board that he had designed. So I think Anders did a lot for windsurfing in Sweden, both on the east coast and...

H

Host6:00

But the common theme seems to be water, whether it's warm water or frozen water. Exactly.

Mm. Should you ask the next question? It feels like you... Yes, but you're longing for it, Filip.

F

Filip6:14

Yes, but I'm curious about your savings. We had a previous CEO, Rikard Josefsson, who was an incredible advocate of monthly savings. And that might not be the most adrenaline-pumping, but it has often been shown to be the best over time. So we wonder, how do you save yourself?

G

Gustaf Unger6:35

Yes, I believe it's hard to find the right timing, so I believe in investing over time, and I do that. I also believe in finding a portfolio that is balanced. So I invest a lot, save a lot. I don't monthly save, but I try to, as soon as I've built up a buffer, move it over to long-term savings.

H

Host7:01

Is the focus stocks or funds?

G

Gustaf Unger7:04

Or when I was younger, it was only stocks and bonds, and then it became derivatives, and then when I got a job where I had insider information and so on, it became very messy to trade stocks with all the rules around personal account dealings, so then it became more or only fund shells just to avoid making mistakes there. That's something you can recognize a bit.

H

Host7:31

But would you say that it's mainly listed? It's not that you have anything unlisted that you invest in, like private or so?

G

Gustaf Unger7:42

Quite limited. I think it's important to have time to do your due diligence even when it's public, but I don't really have that time. So 95% public investments and maybe 5% that are private.

H

Host8:00

We'll talk a bit about career and leadership. You have a background in banking and finance, including from SEB and Nordea. How did you end up in this industry from the beginning?

G

Gustaf Unger8:12

I bought my first stock when I was six years old. I won on a one-armed bandit when I was on a ferry with my grandfather, and I won a bunch of Finnish marks back then. You can tell how old I am. It was so long before they got the euro. And he said, if you stop playing now, I'll take your money and buy a stock for you in the company that owns this boat, because we were on a ferry. So I did, and that started my interest. And then I bought my first bond when I was 11, an Electrolux zero-coupon bond. I think it yielded 13-14%. That was quite special. Yes, I thought, oh, you can have such good returns, and at that time I thought the probability of getting that money back was high. And then I started trading derivatives as a teenager. It was easier to buy more complicated products back then. So this interest in financial products and finance has been there for a very long time.

H

Host9:10

But this must have been sometime before the 2000s. How did you trade derivatives back then?

G

Gustaf Unger9:23

You went into the local bank branch that you felt you belonged to. It was very exciting. You had to read the newspaper very carefully because there was no real-time information available to private individuals. I suddenly feel very old now because I have a hard time even imagining how that worked, and we are grateful for Avanza because it's a bit smoother nowadays.

H

Host10:14

But did you decide then that you were going into finance and work there?

G

Gustaf Unger10:18

No, I don't think I had decided that then. I was just very interested. I was going to become a sailing pro. We tried to get to the Olympics, me and two happy companions, but we didn't make it to the Olympics, so then it became studies instead.

H

Host10:38

And what did you study?

G

Gustaf Unger10:39

Well, I didn't know what, but I was interested in technology, so I chose to study engineering in Stockholm. And then I was interested in the stock market and finance, so I also studied economics at another university in Stockholm. And my first job was at Investor, where I worked with risk, measuring risk, quantifying risk, risk measures. They had a fairly large prop trading desk then. And then I took a break from working and also did a PhD in financial mathematics, so that has been a recurring theme with this interest in finance, securities, risk, return. But then I went into consulting for McKinsey for a number of years, but then I worked mostly with banking and insurance. But then it became a Swedish bank eventually, SEB in 2006.

H

Host11:32

And you've done both SEB and Nordea. In what rounds? So you were at SEB for many years and then Nordea, or was it a bit different?

G

Gustaf Unger11:42

It became 11 years at SEB and then four years at Nordea.

H

Host11:48

What kind of roles did you have there?

G

Gustaf Unger11:51

At SEB, I worked with private banking, asset management, fund products, and with everything that happens after you place an order for a security: settlement, corporate actions, clearing, collateral when it comes to derivatives, and also investment banking, M&A, and ECM, helping to raise capital or when companies are bought and sold. And at Nordea, I worked with savings actually the whole time. So that has been my red thread so far.

H

Host12:29

But it's really true that you have experience from banks and such. But what experiences from your career do you think you bring with you that are most relevant for what you will do at Avanza now, leading Avanza?

G

Gustaf Unger12:44

Mm, it becomes an aggregate of everything, I think. But a good understanding of the products we offer today, an understanding of the products available on the market, how it works from purchase to actually owning the product, understanding of the different scales: occupational pension, capital insurance, ISK, funds. But also absolutely a burning interest in saving and investing.

H

Host13:16

And your leadership then? Who is the leader, and what kind of leadership do you think will characterize Avanza from now on?

G

Gustaf Unger13:25

I am quite Swedish, so I find it a bit difficult to review myself. But I believe a lot in learning. In an organization where employees learn a bit faster than competitors, over time you will become much better, and then you have a much better customer offering, and then the shareholders become much happier. So I put a lot of focus on learning. I will learn and help others learn, rather than focusing on right and wrong. You make mistakes sometimes, then it's about learning from them. So I like to delegate, I like to give feedback, I like to receive feedback. I try to be unpretentious. It's completely okay to say that I am wrong. If you are right and I am wrong, we do it your way.

H

Host14:14

Yes, but is it difficult to create that unpretentiousness when you are the boss? Because even though I am also new to Avanza now, I experience that it is very flat here, and you have also described it that way. But there is still a hierarchy when you are the CEO. It's something else.

G

Gustaf Unger14:32

I think it's much easier to be unpretentious when you are a bit older or more senior. You stand more firmly on the ground. I know what I know, I know what I don't know. I think it was harder when I was younger in my career, when I was more junior, that you wanted to feel that you knew everything and you wanted to give the impression that you knew everything and you wanted to have answers to everything. But I think it's quite easy now, hopefully even easier in a year into this job.

H

Host15:02

Now you say that you have been shaped by experience and age. But would you say that there is any particular event or challenge that has shaped you into the leader you are today? Have you experienced something special that has laid the foundation for who you are today?

G

Gustaf Unger15:24

Well, career question. I have had some role models that I have tried to learn from and still try to learn from. If I take a specific event, I worked very hard early in my career at McKinsey in Switzerland. I worked long hours, late nights, nights. And it was a language, a dialect. I was good at German, but Swiss German is hard to follow the irony and the fun. And I remember I had a senior project manager who sat and smoked a pipe all the time in this little team room. The feeling was that you shouldn't have fun here. It's not possible to combine being professional and having fun. And I thought that was very difficult because if you invest a lot of time, you have to have fun, and you do a much better job when you have fun. So I have really tried to ensure that I have fun at work, and when I have been a manager, I have tried to make sure others feel it's fun, because it's so much easier to do a good job if it's fun at work. So that might be the most important event that has shaped me.

H

Host16:45

And how do you experience that? Both doing a good job and having fun, trying to find a combination sounds great. There is also talk, from an HBS perspective, especially with a focus on the social aspect, that you should also be able to perform at work but also have a life outside, work-life balance as it's called. How do you see that? Is it impossible to make a career and be present outside as well?

G

Gustaf Unger17:13

If you ask my wife, she will say that I was not present enough for quite a long time. And I don't know if I would recommend my children to take the same path as I did at the beginning of my career, if I'm honest, because it costs a lot. There is a wise person older than me who said, think about it, Gustav, the career is a marathon, not a sprint. And you should have a family that works with you, and you should have friends who want you as a friend over time. And keep that in mind. And I maybe didn't have that enough in my first 10-15 years. But that also makes me very aware of how important it is for the people around me and how important it is how I act when I am a manager.

H

Host18:08

Does that influence you a lot now when you are putting together your team? Because when you come in as a new CEO, you have the opportunity to shape your team. Is it important for you that there is a good balance in the culture between work and private life, and having fun and performing? How do you see that when you form your team now?

G

Gustaf Unger18:29

I haven't really reflected that individuals in the team affect work-life balance. But the fun factor, I think, is super important. A successful team, whether in sports or at work, you need to function well together. And going back to my lesson from early in my career, if you also have fun at the same time, it becomes so much easier to perform. So that aspect I definitely have with me.

H

Host18:56

I would actually like to go back a bit to that question about work-life balance and what you sacrifice as a CEO, because many people have the image that CEOs, especially listed company CEOs, are some kind of superhumans who have to sacrifice everything, family and friends. Do you feel that you share that image, that you have had to sacrifice your entire private life? You touched on it, but I want to ask the question straight out.

G

Gustaf Unger19:25

Mm. But it might be a bit too early for me to answer that really, because it becomes very intense when you come in as new because you have to learn everything, and it's new people, new organizations, new products. So my answer now might not be fully representative. Maybe you can save that question until you come back in five years and answer it.

H

Host19:48

Mm. But if you are a bit younger and listening to this, we have many young listeners who want to make a career and think that the McKinsey thing sounds cool, and there is a status factor around many of these high-performing jobs that is hard to avoid, even if there are also clear downsides, that you might have to sacrifice a lot. What are your career tips to someone who wants to be where you are now as a 51-year-old, but maybe just graduated? Which path should they take?

G

Gustaf Unger20:23

Oh, that's a difficult, broad question. But I think, for me, it's much harder to perform and put in hours and heart if I'm not passionate about something. So my advice would probably be: try to do something you are passionate about. And it's not that the job is fun all 52 weeks of the year, but it should be fun most of the time. Otherwise, you might be in the wrong place. It becomes an uphill battle to do a good job if you don't have that drive of 'how fun it will be to go to work and solve this'. So do what you think is fun.

H

Host21:05

That's a great tip, really. And I think we can agree on that. Yes, it should be fun, then it often turns out well. Absolutely. We don't have boring jobs either. No, we really don't. But I think we should change the subject and not grill you about your past career, but more about where we are going, because we are going to talk about Avanza and Avanza's future. Many of our listeners are very interested, not only because Avanza is the world's best company, not biased at all here, but also because we are listed. So my first question is: what is your future vision for Avanza? What do you see us in a year, and what do you see us in ten years? So we talk a bit short-term and long-term.

G

Gustaf Unger21:55

There I have to answer a bit vaguely because to set a vision for a company, you actually need to have a proper understanding of where we stand and where we are going, exactly what our strengths are, what our opportunities are, what our... and I haven't finished that homework. But in a year, Avanza should have impressed our customers and made saving and investing even better, even easier, even cheaper. In ten years, that's a long period. Then we should have revolutionized the market even more broadly than we have done so far. We should absolutely be number one in customer satisfaction. But above all, we should be the organization that everyone wants to recruit from. Because if we get all our colleagues to have a little more fun at work, to grow a little faster than our competitors, we will become much better at delivering good things to our customers and our shareholders. So that vision I have, that this is where people will want to recruit from. They already do, but even more so in the future.

H

Host23:16

But doesn't it become harder to keep colleagues then?

G

Gustaf Unger23:20

Yes, but it's also very easy to attract new ones. And it's great to have ambassadors who move on, because people who are satisfied and grateful for the journey they have had with Avanza will be ambassadors in that case. So I really believe in that. There are also many who, like me, come back. You can be long-term and go out and learn how everything works and then come home again. That works well too.

H

Host23:55

But Avanza has been around for quite a while now and has fought especially against the big banks, which you also have experience from. Is there anything from the big bank era that you feel you should not bring into Avanza?

G

Gustaf Unger24:09

Yes, well, the big banks in Sweden and the Nordics are really big. We're talking 20,000 employees at Nordea, 30,000 employees. The bureaucracy you need to build to steer your organization comes with a huge cost and inefficiency. All large companies have that, and you always have to counteract it. It's very important that Avanza doesn't end up there. We are significantly smaller, 660 employees, but I think it's very important to be vigilant that it doesn't creep in. We have to be more agile, more forward-leaning. We should have as little bureaucracy as possible. We should have good governance of the company. It's important that we are regulated and we want to do things right, but we should not have unnecessary bureaucracy. And is it through delegation, as you mentioned earlier, that is key to succeeding? That is one way. Another is that there is often a tendency to create committees. A group of people to make decisions, and that's good because you can get different perspectives, but on the other hand, shared responsibility is no one's responsibility, a bit. So I believe a lot in saying, no, this is your decision, this is your decision. You also save meeting time for important people. So I think it's scalable that Avanza could grow and become very large. Let's play with the thought that we would become that big.

H

Host25:40

Like the major banks, mm. Do you think it still works to keep it as efficient, or will the bureaucracy, like a letter in the mail is a terrible reference now that letters haven't been delivered for a long time, but like an SMS then? Yes, um, do you think so?

G

Gustaf Unger25:55

Yes, I think so. So you have to be really good at... some increase in bureaucracy will be needed if you become larger, absolutely. But you constantly have to be there and, like, push back, I think, to not create inefficiency in the organization.

H

Host26:13

And a final question there: would you say that there is something that you have already started to look at here at Avanza, how we can become even more efficient and get away from this bureaucracy?

G

Gustaf Unger26:25

But I try to delegate. Um, I constantly try to understand why do I need to be in this meeting? Why do five people need to be in this meeting? Just healthy questioning, and I can do that as a new person, and much is good and right that we do it that way, and in some other places, 'Yes, no, but you're right, we probably don't need that.' So constantly stress-testing, are there efficiencies to be made, simply.

H

Host26:53

Yes, but I think so. Yes, but if we talk about strengths instead. I listened to you at the annual general meeting, also a tough task as a brand new person coming in and talking about a company, especially during a time that you probably haven't worked in, but I felt at least that you seemed very well-read. It felt like you had done your homework. So I'm curious about what you have identified as Avanza's biggest strengths.

G

Gustaf Unger27:17

Yes, the absolute strength, I would say, is the customer focus that is ingrained in the walls here, really. It has been so clear in all discussions I've had with employees, things I read in internal documents. It is pervasive. It is quite unique, I would say. I haven't seen it before in this way. So customer focus. But then there's the technology. I mean, it has taken us fantastically far here over these almost 25 years and is a major competitive advantage today and needs to be tomorrow as well. Um, the pace of innovation. Yes, those three. Mm, those are strong pillars, one could say.

H

Host28:04

And if we turn it around, are there any such challenges today, more than you want to prevent bureaucracy and such, but is there anything else that you feel you need to work a little extra on?

G

Gustaf Unger28:15

But Avanza has been very successful, has almost two million customers now. And then there is always the risk of becoming a little laid-back and a little 'fat and happy,' if I may use an American expression. And there, I need, we all need to be very vigilant. All companies that have been successful need to be very vigilant. We need to stay on our toes. We constantly need to come out with new things for our customers that make their investment decisions and saving easier. I'm not saying that's the case, but the risk always exists in companies that have had a very good history.

H

Host28:54

Um, there are actually also some questions that are bubbling out there that we know people are curious about. So we are taking up the elephants in the room in this podcast, and therefore you will get these questions now. So how is it really to go from a competitor? You were previously on the Nordnet board, to Avanza?

G

Gustaf Unger29:18

I've been at SEB, and I've been... all competitors are also competitors, good input. No, but I think for me personally, it is very rewarding. I said I was curious. I love learning new things. It is incredibly exciting to come in and learn a new culture, incredibly exciting to come in and learn strengths and weaknesses in this company at Avanza. But on a higher level, I think it is healthy for the industry with some cross-pollination. I think it is natural.

H

Host29:55

Are there any drastic changes that you feel need to be made at Avanza now?

G

Gustaf Unger30:02

Sometimes the Red Bull is out in the fridge down there, and then I have trouble delivering, so a bit more consistency on the Red Bull delivery. No, but jokes aside, no, I don't think so.

H

Host30:17

Um, yes, but something that has been much discussed, which we know customers can be incredibly frustrated about, is operational disruptions when the store is closed. Mm, yes. What is your view on that?

G

Gustaf Unger30:31

Mm, no, but if you are a company like Avanza that has almost two million customers, where many customers are active and want to be active several times a day, then the business must be open all the time. And that was a very big focus before I came, and a lot has been done, and it continues to be a very big focus. But that doesn't mean you have to do something drastically different, but rather successively improve and keep focus on it.

H

Host31:02

Mm, mm. A bit on the same theme, it is the case that financial media, perhaps including Twitter, or perhaps especially Twitter, is often quite quick to criticize Avanza, and perhaps especially recently. What are your thoughts on that? Is it okay to start criticizing Avanza now because we are becoming so big? It's like okay to punch up, or do you have any thoughts you want to share about that?

G

Gustaf Unger31:32

No, but I think when you have almost two million customers, then it is natural that you should maintain a high quality. And I think much of what I hear from customers is justified. These are things where we can do more, do better. But if I were to listen to all the customers who have come specifically to me, then we would have things to do for many years to come, because it ranges from making it easier to understand saving for someone who is very new, to 'I want performance attribution in my performance reporting.' And we now have customers who are extremely skilled and extremely complex in their investment strategies, to people who want help with putting aside a little money each month. So the range of what we need to offer means there will always be things we need to do more of. It is very difficult when the knowledge level is very spread out, because you want to help and cater to all customers regardless. And the bigger we get, the harder it becomes.

H

Host32:45

Mm, but very interesting. Now it is actually the case that we have time. Yes, we have time, we have time, and we have received a lot of listener questions, so we think it will be really hot seat here. And of course, we fully understand that you have only been sitting in the hot seat, I almost said, but in the CEO chair for just over a month, so you'll have to answer to the best of your ability. Yes, but we have taken all the questions that came on that post on Twitter, we have taken every single one here, so we will work our way through them, and we'll see how many answers we get. The first one is shared from Aktieindian, Thas Nielsen, and Markus Wademyr. All three wonder if we will invest in the Nordic market, i.e., grow Avanza outside Sweden's borders.

G

Gustaf Unger33:37

Yes, yes. I met many analysts and also investors after the Q1 report who were also very interested in 'What is the next thing for Avanza?' And my short answer is: I don't know. I've been here too early. I think there are very interesting markets outside Sweden. I have worked with several of them. But I'm sorry, I need a little more time.

H

Host34:02

But I won't press you too hard, but are we thinking neighboring countries, or are we thinking more Europe, or are we thinking more like 'the world is the limit'?

G

Gustaf Unger34:13

But if you take a step back, I can reason like this: Avanza has done incredibly much for Swedish savers and investors, not only for our customers but has driven the market forward to become much better for the entire collective, for all Swedes, in terms of accessibility, price, breadth of offering. It is largely Avanza that has driven that, and transparency. And then you could argue, why only for Swedes? This need exists in other places too. So that would argue that we need to help customers or potential customers in other markets as well. But I am very humble about the difficulty of entering a new market. Here in Sweden, very many know us, they have feelings about our brand, they know what we stand for. In another country, you start very much from a blank sheet. It is difficult and expensive, and expensive and takes time.

H

Host35:19

Yes, mm, and there is, our chairman Sven often talks about that there is more to dig here. We have a market share of 7%, so there are many customers left. Mm, and absolutely. We take the next question. Kakkar wonders how you view the 0.25% currency surcharge when Montrose will have 0.19? And we should say here that we don't really know if Montrose has released that. I think this person might mean Saver, I think has announced that they are at 0.19, or maybe this person knows more than we know, but you can answer, maybe inside information, it could be.

G

Gustaf Unger35:56

Yes, that was quite specific. But I'll answer a bit more generally. Avanza stands for making it easy to trade with us, to invest with us, to save with us. It should be a good user experience and it should be affordable. So the overall experience should be all these three. Then how it is on specific... reasonable. But I have a friend who I paddled with actually yesterday, kayaking, who was on that exact question about currency surcharge. Yes, mm, it's current. But he was more after currency accounts.

H

Host36:42

Yes, okay, that's also a thing. Yes. Daniel Lundborg asks: 'Today, is it possible to trade stocks from 12 different countries on your platform? Are there plans to broaden the offering?' He also sends 'Thanks for a good podcast,' so we thank you, thank you very much, Daniel. Should we broaden the offering? Fun.

G

Gustaf Unger37:00

Um, I guess back in the day, you started with one market, and then Avanza has grown its offering. So over time, I think it goes in that direction, but I don't have any specific thoughts here and now. But it is a very interesting... for the Indonesian stock exchange, and you can also make a little insert here: we have 12 different countries on our platform, but the absolute majority is traded in Sweden and the USA, primarily Sweden, then the USA, then Canada is also popular for certain stocks, but the other countries account for a very, very, very small part of what our customers trade. So even if it is interesting, there must be a sufficiently large demand for it. But of course, I agree, it would be super cool to be able to trade stocks all over the world, and maybe one day it will become reality.

H

Host38:00

Um, let's take the next question from Hag Jon. That person wonders what the average age for Avanza's customers is, but we can say that because you and I know that: it's 37 years, median. Thanks for that. Yes. But the next question from the same person is: 'Do you see that customers stay and grow their savings even when they get older and take, for example, their first mortgage, or do they end up in the classic major banks?' What is your view?

G

Gustaf Unger38:31

No, but my view is, yes, they stay. I base it on an analysis of how, firstly, we have very few customers who choose to leave us each year. I think it was 0.6% last year, 2023, or if it was Q1, but it's around there. And the longer you have been a customer, the more of your savings you accumulate with us. So I would dare to say that they stay. Isn't it the opposite, that the older you get, the more inclined you are to leave the major bank and go to Avanza? Yes, that's probably the case, that's probably the case.

H

Host39:08

But this person actually had one more question: 'Which age group is most profitable for Avanza?' That's also a very niche question.

G

Gustaf Unger39:16

Yes, and I haven't done that analysis, but the customers who choose to have a lot of their savings and investments with us are surely the most profitable. And the longer you have been a customer, the more you have with us typically. So therefore, I would say that those who are a bit older are probably a bit more profitable than those who have just become customers, maybe when they turn 18 or something.

F

Filip39:50

And I think you're right in that without having the exact numbers. But it's also something that I, Filip, look a lot at, not who is most profitable, but who has the most capital. Exactly. And it increases over time thanks to the compound interest effect, for example.

H

Host40:02

Kvarna has another question: 'What is your opinion about automatic transfer of dividends to one's bank account?' And he thinks that would help those who live on dividends. Interesting suggestion, thanks for that. Reasonable question, reasonable wish, really.

G

Gustaf Unger40:19

Um, I'll jump a little here, Filip, so you know. Sparsamt Leverne wonders: 'Why should one trade stocks on Avanza instead of Nordnet, and why should one trade funds on Avanza instead of Saver?' Because we should be better than both, period, than everyone. So now you can go back to that question.

H

Host40:44

David wonders, or David thinks it would be interesting if you could have someone responsible for Private Banking, but it would also be interesting to hear how Gustav views our Private Banking offering and the Private Banking customer. And he says that Avanza is good at talking to and inspiring new customers, but how do you work to meet the needs of those who have come a bit further?

G

Gustaf Unger41:05

Mm, but I think we can do more there. Typically, the more money you have to invest, the more complex questions you have to solve and take into account, and the greater demands you place on us at Avanza. So I think there are things we can do even better there.

H

Host41:30

We have from eBay Investor who has three questions. The first we may have touched on: 'Biggest challenge for Avanza right now?'

G

Gustaf Unger41:39

I don't know if it's a challenge right now, but it's something I want to be very alert about, and that is, as I mentioned earlier, we must never become fat and happy. We must never become complacent. We must constantly be leaning forward, coming out with good new things for customers, not relaxing.

H

Host41:57

And question two: 'What does Gustav think customers are missing at Avanza?'

G

Gustaf Unger42:02

Yes, yes, we touched on this. The breadth among our customers, so if you aggregate everything they miss, it's probably quite a lot. So it's hard to answer. I think a person who has just started saving might want even more digital hand-holding about how to invest their money, while a person who is turning a portfolio and wants some performance attribution reporting back, and everything in between. So I think there is a lot left for Avanza to do.

H

Host42:42

Mm, and third question: 'Do you see any acquisition opportunities open for such possibilities?' Mm, mm, exciting.

G

Gustaf Unger42:57

Um, Magnus Alfredsson wonders, there is a lot of comparison with Nordnet here, so back to: 'What does Nordnet have that you would like Avanza to have?'

Yes, they have the opportunity to help Finnish, Danish, and Norwegian savers to a simpler and better financial life. We don't have that.

H

Host43:22

Competition questions: 'Which bank has come furthest in trying to compete with Avanza?' was the first question.

G

Gustaf Unger43:33

Um, who should we be afraid of? All six major Nordic banks are very active in this market. They have many customers. And I think we'll see what happens now in a few days, but I think we will see lower interest rates towards the end of the year than we have today. That's probably no news. That will make them earn a little less money on net interest income, which I think will lead to even more focus on savings and investments from the major banks, so even more competition. Yes, I think so.

H

Host44:09

Um, then there is also a very newly set question: 'Will Avanza lower the loan-to-value on securities credit?' if I understood correctly.

G

Gustaf Unger44:22

Um, but let me answer a bit more generally on interest rate levels. They follow the market, typically the policy rate. But then you always have to take into account the competitive situation. And I actually don't know what we have written to customers regarding securities credit, so I don't dare answer that. But generally, we actually lowered the mortgage rate recently even though there was no change in the policy rate because we felt we wanted to be more competitive. And there, our mortgage also follows the policy rate, so if the Riksbank chooses to lower, our mortgage will also be lowered.

H

Host45:07

But we'll move on. We move on. Andreas Skarve has questions/suggestions. We'll take them one by one. 'When will comparison index for each fund automatically come to the graph?' Mm, and that is a very reasonable request, but I can't answer that because I don't really know what our backlog looks like. Maybe one of you knows? No.

G

Gustaf Unger45:30

But I thought it was really good, so you compare with the right thing and can evaluate a fund. So this was a great suggestion. We'll take it forward.

H

Host45:38

'When can we see trading in listed bonds?' [Music]

G

Gustaf Unger45:42

Mm, when we started getting higher interest rates a number of quarters ago, I thought there would be much more interest in fixed income and bonds. I don't really think I've seen that in the market. And that might be because the ticket sizes on bonds are so large. But I can't answer that. But generally, when you have a higher interest rate level, bonds become a natural complement in a different way than when bonds were near zero. But I'll have to pass on when, because I don't know exactly. Mm, but it feels reasonable that interest has at least increased now that there are interest rates to talk about.

H

Host46:27

Yes, we maybe... there is alternative. Exactly. Yes. The third one I don't really understand. We can say it as it stands: 'Can you write out the number, i.e., company value dollar euro in name?' I don't really understand that question either. I may have written it in wrong, sorry about that. We move on to the next. 'Order depth without additional service.' Mm, that and this might not everyone knows, but order depth can be very large and you show certain levels and such. Is that something reasonable to expand?

G

Gustaf Unger46:57

Yes, I almost have to pass on that. But I mean, the more active you are and the more of a trader you are, the more important those aspects become. But I have to pass on that question.

H

Host47:07

We go to SAP Invest. Yes, SAP Invest has three questions. The first we have answered a bit, but if you want again: 'What do you see Avanza in five years?'

G

Gustaf Unger47:18

Mm, about. Yes, but then, then, then I take... in five years, Avanza is the company that everyone wants to recruit from. Mm, mm, fun.

H

Host47:30

And number two: 'Do you have any specific goal that you want Avanza to achieve during your leadership?' Like Sweden's most satisfied customers or... you understand the question.

G

Gustaf Unger47:45

Yes, it comes to my mind first, but we actually have that today. But people are nibbling at us, so it is actually to have Sweden's most satisfied customers. That is the most important: to keep that for the 15th year in a row.

H

Host48:08

Mm, and number three: 'How do you view the increased competition within savings and investment?'

G

Gustaf Unger48:16

Um, but I think it's great. It's super good. All successful companies have had tough competitors nearby. Take Atlas Copco, Sandvik, Volvo, Saab. Maybe it went a bit worse for one car manufacturer, but they sharpened each other over many decades. So for Avanza, competition is great. It just makes us have to run a little faster.

H

Host48:41

But has it been enough with the competition from the Per Norden that started around the same time? Now there is almost a new wave chasing us, from the major banks, one could almost say, starting the same journey that we did about 20 years ago. Are you afraid of them?

G

Gustaf Unger48:58

Yes, but I think it's very healthy, both for us and Nordnet, because it means we can't relax. We constantly have to develop, improve for customers, make it easier, make it better, make it more affordable. And you have touched on this customer focus here. And I think actually when you talk about competition in the corridors, this is not a question but just a reflection, very often we conclude that this is great for customers because it keeps us on our toes. And as engaged savers, we know that what is happening will only become even better for customers. Competition is great in so many ways.

H

Host49:40

Nordnet Investor, that's the name of this person, wonders: 'What share of Avanza do you have in your portfolio, as a share of total wealth?' Oops, are you in the boat, Gustav?

G

Gustaf Unger49:52

Um, I invested one million in Avanza shares the same day I signed to start as CEO, and that was a fairly large part of my liquid portfolio. Mm, you can understand.

H

Host50:08

Mm, nicely done, straight answer, very good. The pilot school usually calls it, yes.

Um, Provida Providera wonders if we have any plans for a currency account on ISK or KF, which many are asking for and which RoboMarket and Pareto offer.

G

Gustaf Unger50:30

Yes, we have very clear plans for that, at least on KF to start with. But we're not quite there yet, it will take a little while longer, but work is in full swing on it.

H

Host50:45

Mm, tasty. Mm, that was at least exciting news you shared there, Gustav. But for clarity, I should add that this will then apply to Avanza's Private Banking and Per customers, so we are clear about that. Last question here from a person who calls himself Fatcat, exciting then. And wonders: 'What experiences do you bring from Nordnet?'

G

Gustaf Unger51:17

Yes, that they very much want to become even bigger in Sweden. So we need to stay on our toes. I need to stay on my toes. We need to stay on our toes.

H

Host51:33

Yes, we will do that together, the team, really. A thousand thanks for honest, nice answers to these questions, and thanks to everyone who sent in so many questions. It helps us make a better program, right, Filip? Really. And I also have to thank you. It was very fun to have you here in both the podcast and at the company. So we hope you will come back in a couple of years and look back and be very satisfied and proud. You won't have a choice, we will force you here. Thank you so much. Take care, everyone.

G

Gustaf Unger52:03

Take care.

H

Host52:06

And risk, yes, I'll do a risk disclaimer. Remember that it can fluctuate. Saving in stocks, funds, and other securities has historically been a very profitable way to make your money grow, but what happens in the future, no one knows. Now we say goodbye. Now we say goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye.

44 frågor till Avanzas nya vd Gustaf Unger | Avanzapodden 344

About Gustaf Unger