Immobilier, Logement, dans les yeux de Véronique Bédague

Grand Jury of the real estate press, a show in partnership with Regus, presented by Sylvain Levivalency. Hello everyone, thank you for being with us. Today is a symbolic day, June 15, 2023, 6:31 PM. We are live for this June edition. We will first have the Grand Jury review, then the great debate with our guest, and finally the real estate forecast. First, I am pleased to welcome our guest of the month, Véronique Bédague, Chairwoman and CEO of Nexity. Good evening, Véronique. We are delighted to have you.

Hi Sylvain, how are you?

I am fine. I am glad you are with us. We have a June edition that we wanted, and we thank you, Véronique, for being with us. Our journalists are here. I have the pleasure of seeing him every month in the Tour de France. He is the editor-in-chief of Figaro Immobilier, my friend Olivier Marin. Hello, Olivier.

Hello Sylvain, hello everyone. I am very happy to be back in this club of the press with Véronique Bédague, a great guest. The Grand Jury of the press was initiated originally with two friends of the real estate press, Marie Cœur de Roy, who is listening but could not be present. Excuse her.

Excuse us. Anyway, we have Virginie Grelot, journalist from Challans. Hello Virginie. She is a great regular of the show. We are always happy to have her. Also, the climate is quite warm, both inside and outside, and warm in the business. My friend Bruno is also with us. Hello Bruno.

Good evening Sylvain, good evening everyone. Journalist from Le Point.

So, you noticed, Bruno, I say it every month, but I say it again, I told you 20 years before meeting you, especially this great article you wrote in the 2000s on telework, where you were 20 years ahead on the uses of telework. I am delighted and honored that you are here. Now it's the third season of Bruno. We will talk about a dossier you did on Paris, but also about the real estate forecast with our friend Philippe. And first, ladies and gentlemen, I am glad you are connected. Radio, ask your questions, Charlotte will moderate. And if you wish, we can even take some on air. But first, we will go to the Grand Jury review with our journalists. Right after, the Grand Jury of the real estate press - the review of the Grand Jury.

So the idea of the Grand Jury review, Véronique, is to give the floor for a few minutes to our journalists from the press for either a blues, a rant, or a favorite. I won't hide that favorites are rare these days in the real estate industry. But positive. One thing is sure, we will try to get an overview of your opinions, friends. I propose we start with Olivier Marin from Figaro.

Yes, can I do a favorite and a mini blues? It's possible. Favorite: we don't talk much about these architects and urban planners who are often in the shadows, who anticipate because urbanism and architecture are not just buildings and housing, but everything around - mobility, equipment, transport. My favorite is a tip of the hat to Simon Tessou, who just received the Grand Prix of Urbanism 2023. He is a great architect, director of the National School of Architecture of Clermont-Ferrand, and has led many operations, especially in Aurillac. He founded the Atelier du Rouget in Cantal, uses wood, defends rurality. He is doing great operations all over France. Bravo to him. Blues: it's in line with what happened at the CNR. I don't understand, but I think it will probably sort out. We had mentioned the status of the private landlord, recognizing the investor, especially in new construction, as a full economic actor that allows not only building housing but also housing families. Building housing creates jobs, construction, craftsmen. It seems logical and interesting. And especially in new construction, I don't understand why this idea - particularly Véronique Bédague, we had mentioned it at your press conference and I asked you, you said 'I think it's on track'. So I don't understand what happened for this status of the private landlord to be dropped, especially since we know that in new construction we will need private investors one day or another. We had seen extremely... it was when Cécile Duflot was at the Ministry of Housing, it was absolutely necessary to have a rental investment scheme, and we finally got the Duflot, but we lost a lot of time. So that's why it's a blues. I feel it's a missed opportunity. We'll probably wait a year for this rental investment scheme and something for the private landlord status.

If you want, I'd like to bounce back. It seems to me that Olivier Klein had even published in the press that he was favorable to the private landlord status. I don't know, I'm not a minister, but I would have taken that as a bit of an admission when the report of the restitution of the CNR was presented, it was quite disappointing, to put it mildly. Thank you, Olivier. Virginie Grelot, the blues, favorite, rant?

Rant, because I'll leave the blues, but it can't be a favorite, of course. I saw a tweet from Manuel de Merde from the Abbé Pierre Foundation explaining that today there were still 1,500 children sleeping outside. I don't have the perimeter, I think it's Paris or Ile-de-France, but no matter. I find it unbearable to know that there are children sleeping outside. I won't even comment on the results of the CNR or the moments of the HCSF. We simply see a striking lack of listening on housing issues. We know there are difficulties, but we hear the difficulties accumulating for months. There are people who need housing, whatever their situation. There are 4, 5, 6 million people poorly housed in France. We are a country of 68 million inhabitants, not the last country in the world, and we still have 1,500 children sleeping outside. For me, it's unbearable.

I completely share your opinion. I take advantage of what you say, Virginie, to salute the work of the foundation and the pleasure of being part of the board of directors led by Isabelle Larochette, who fights for better housing without invective, without dogma, without ideology, just to help people. And she received this week a letter from the Ministry of Housing that will give her the insignia of the Order of Merit. I don't know who is at the origin of this, she called me this morning, she was delighted, but also saddened to be sometimes powerless before this reality. And we talked about these situations that are absolutely dramatic. You also talked a lot with Christophe Robert from the Abbé Pierre Foundation. It's good to note it. It's just unbearable. Unbearable to think about it, especially when we are in France, a free country, a democratic country, a country that has the means to do otherwise. This can only grumble in public opinion. We will talk about it later, but I think the social situation... I think it's Karine Olivier who talked about it yesterday at the low-carbon affordable construction salon that you initiated, Véronique Bédague, in which she expects in September a serious crisis of the private rental sector, since it has never been so low, so tense. It's historic. I've been in the business for 35 years, I've never seen such low figures. We really need to be concerned. Thank you for pointing it out. Bruno Manie Minard, rant, favorite today?

A favorite, actually. I take you to Budapest, the Hungarian capital. There is an urban planning, architecture, and cultural project that is quite interesting. In their municipal park, which is a bit like our Bois de Boulogne but smaller, called Varosliget, 120 hectares. Tourists know it because of the famous Széchenyi Baths, the open-air thermal baths with magnificent Hungarian architecture. There is a castle that is a replica of Dracula's in Transylvania. There is already a Museum of Fine Arts and a Museum of Contemporary Art, and Heroes' Square. That's the tourist postcard. What's happening is that a decision was made, financed with a lot of money, some say from bistros, to turn it into a museum district, like what we did with the Fondation Vuitton in the Bois de Boulogne. It started with a funny building, a House of Music with a concert hall of 320 seats, exhibition spaces, classrooms. And I don't know if you can see the images, but how to say it, it's by the architect Sou Fujimoto, known in France for the 'Arbre Blanc' in Montpellier. He built this House of Music, and he had a real flash of genius, a kind of magical mushroom, with holes in the hat. I'll ask the production if they can find the images. It's a mushroom that merges with the forest, so it's inside-outside, with glass bays. It's really remarkable. I've been a fan of Fujimoto for a long time, and I was very surprised. The most recent news is an ethnographic museum that is like a giant skateboard, with a roof garden of 7,000 square meters where people walk on it. It was done by a Hungarian firm, Napur Architect. 60% of the structure is buried in the ground. They expect 300,000 visitors per year. There will be more museums by very big names. I've been to Budapest several times.

You added a bit of poetry. Thank you, Bruno. Thank you, Charlotte. A favorite, a rant?

Well, I notice that men are fascinated by architecture, while women are sad for the children. So I'll stay in line with Virginie, since it's a blues. There were the philosophy baccalaureate exams. I think of all those students who will find themselves looking for housing for the start of the school year. We had a few weeks ago the results of Parcoursup. It's getting more and more complicated. For parents in some cities, it's a battle for three to four months to find housing. I think of all these students because I remember I got my bac in 2003, so it's starting to date. I remember it was already a struggle. And I think, when I look at my children, it will be even worse for them, very likely. So it saddens me a lot because today there are young people who don't do the studies they planned just because housing is too expensive in that school. Olivier, with the mayor of La Rochelle, you remember, he said he received young students who changed their professional orientation because they couldn't come to La Rochelle. He cited concrete cases of students sleeping in their cars. The situation has reached an explosive level, absolutely phenomenal. And he told us other cases of retirees who could no longer stay in their homes or in the city center, forced to exile themselves from their natural environment. It was absolutely dramatic. And I, at the time, was a scholarship holder at the highest level, and I didn't get a place in the CROUS, so I had to pay for private housing. That was okay because I was in Le Mans, a medium-sized city, but in Paris, how do you do it when you don't have parents behind you?

Thank you for participating. This Grand Jury review is over. Now it's time to move to the great portrait of our guest. We'll go live on the news. It's the big subject. We'll talk first about the restitution of the National Council for Refoundation. There is a lot to say about the housing aspect. Right after, the Grand Jury of the real estate press - the big subject. Thank you, Véronique Bédague, for being with us. It's a real pleasure to have you on the set because you have not spared your efforts for several weeks, several months. You are on all platforms, on all fronts to defend the cause of housing, and especially the cause of housing for the French. I propose, as a preamble, to put into context the words you have taken. We have taken several periods from the last few weeks and months where you are on all fronts. I will ask you to react right after that, after listening to the report.

So it's interesting because I will put the speeches in context. The first was on January 18, 2023, you were at the Social Affairs Committee. Then it was April 24 on Inter at 7:50 AM, April 24, 2023, and finally on Quotidien on June 6, 2021, in front of our friend Barthès. The things were clear. You clearly announced that you are rather angry. We agree on that. Is it the mountain that gave birth to a mouse with this very disappointing character of the restitution of the CNR conclusions? Did you hope for more?

So you alluded to this interview given by Emmanuel Macron in Challenges. My colleagues who interviewed him took a question on housing because it wasn't necessarily in the narrative, it wasn't obvious, and it wasn't a question he necessarily wanted to answer. And when I saw the restitution of the answer, you say to yourself, 'OK, it hasn't moved one bit.' The question clearly didn't please him because it wasn't a very positive record he had to put forward, and he was even less happy because the interview was done the day after the downgrade of France's rating. But closing the parenthesis on Emmanuel Macron, what arguments are put forward by the government to say they take such and such a measure, they effectively suppress the sector of individual houses, which we know is cheaper to buy or build a house than to buy an apartment? What are their arguments? I have trouble understanding what their arguments are for making this kind of decision. So we think maybe you have heard some, but we haven't. Not us either, actually.

I allow myself to make a small intervention regarding what was just said, especially about the individual house. Even though I hear the arguments put forward by real estate professionals, especially the fact that the target of this type of property is modest households, I can't help thinking that since the Ministry of Housing is under the Ministry of Ecology, and with everything that has happened recently, especially to avoid urban sprawl, I think of the ZAN. I think the individual house is clearly not the future of housing for them. Oh, but it's practically banned. I think it's a ban that doesn't say its name. Honestly, I think it was enough to let the effect of urbanization and the seas work, let them take responsibility. We see that these products are starting to densify. Was it really necessary to also tell people no PTZ? I think it's too much. Have you also quantified the consequences? So we will reduce by maybe 40% or something. I don't have an estimate. But OK, the house is reduced to zero. Have you also, through the fact that when a developer launches a project, there is also a part of social housing that will be built? You remember, it's a third. So in the end, how many social housing units? And how many, roughly? I estimate about 50,000 fewer rental housing units. So what anticipation do you have on this projection?

Do you want me to industrialize? I absolutely agree because often we have discussed with you that they all go with their own charter as if there were specificities. But what I had trouble understanding, and these are questions we asked the mayor, is that they are invariable on the exit price, there is a tax as if there was an extension, a financial elasticity at the developer, which at some point makes it normal to produce beyond with gaps of 20 to 25%. And that's where we understood the electoral injunctions, okay. We clearly see that there is a limit to the exercise in territorial planning, because it's political colors. They told us, we signed it partly out of pure obligation, not all of them, but some signed because they wanted to work. But I think they are very different in nature, and I think that for once we said at the end of the CNR, the big missing party is still the local authority. So Isabelle Doorn said we will ask the prefect in dense areas to go look with local officials at the gap between what was planned in the PLH and what actually happens, and then we will start discussions. That's not useless. But really, we said we must reconsider the role of the state and the role of local authorities, avoid waste delegations. A great work from the CNR on these subjects of what should be left at the center and what should be put. And despite everything, I think this housing issue necessarily involves a reflection on the revenues of local authorities. We are in a perfect vicious circle where local authorities no longer have much control over the property tax rate. How can I put it? Bruno, you wanted to intervene on this subject.

I understand your disappointment, your frustration with this commission that gave birth to a mouse, as you said earlier. But at the same time, we shouldn't be too surprised. I remember the Attali commission, the work that Guillaume Poitrinal did on simplification, etc. What more can we say about the report? We are still a country champion of this kind of thing, champion of reports. What I wanted to ask you is that, finally, don't you believe – and this is a bit provocative because I know your communication goes in a different direction – but you spoke earlier of a sociological shock. Don't you believe that there is also an ecological shock, and that we have gone too far in this desire to no longer artificialize the soil, as the formula goes, to want all housing to be energy-efficient, etc., with building permits no longer being issued? And in the end, people who can't, because it's more expensive to live in less remote areas or with standards, it's more expensive for builders, it's more expensive for occupants, and so people don't go there.

Charlotte, I would like us to take stock technically of what was said in the CNR, notably. We will talk about the housing plan, talk about all these very concrete elements to properly situate what is leading to this collective anger today. Since one thing is sure: the announcements made by Elisabeth Borne highlighted the ministerial inefficiency of Olivier Klein, in my opinion. That's one of the absolute confessions. It's incredible that he didn't even express himself about it. Moreover, some colleagues, former local elected officials, from local areas, are still saying, 'What the devil was he doing in that galley?' We can decently ask the question. Result, Charlotte, I don't have them all in mind, but there was the doubling of the number of beneficiaries for the housing plan first, the encouragement of BRS, measures to boost thermal renovation, the development of intermediate housing as we said earlier, which is a good thing, the strengthening of dialogue between the state and dense cities, and a small question actually about 40, 50... Croisiers, so it's still a subject. But a small question because there is something that seems to have reached consensus at the level of the CNR: it's the question of regulating land prices.

There is still something to reflect on around land prices, at least look at how they evolve, maybe have the means to ask questions about the most basic things. Because people tell me, 'Don't worry, land prices will go down.' That's a real interesting economic problem. Will the price of land, which is a rare good that will become increasingly rare, go down? I think it won't go down. That's a good question. Some say, 'No, wait, land prices will go down.' So I don't know. It's a real interesting economic problem. Same on housing prices: why is there no affordable housing? Are there new economic models? Even your professions, we feel they are changing. We talk more and more about rehabilitation, renovating existing buildings, urban recycling, new constructive words. Since we talked about all these professions, your economic models are completely disrupted. That's the feeling, at least. For years now, the reality has accelerated. Yes, of course. But again, rehabilitation is easy to do? It depends on the price of land, it depends on the initial price. I can always renovate, I just need to be able to sell when I renovate. So everything depends on the price of land, which is an absolutely determining element. Because work prices are not going to drop; salaries won't drop, inputs won't drop, I think. So I recall that developers' margins are not at 25% in case there are still doubts or fantasies. We are around 5-6% today. So I don't see... We will search, but Sylvain, yesterday we said we must industrialize, that's it. Industrialization normally brings lower prices in all professions. So on that, we are looking at, we are looking at an operator who really came from tech and data, capable of producing modular housing. It was very beautiful too, including externally. It's really a two-room apartment inside the device when you enter. And it's off-site construction, it's perfect in terms of after-sales service because it has industrial quality. It's two months of construction, which is a lot for acceptance. I can't do that everywhere, I can't do that in a dense area. But really, there are places where we can do it. Honestly, I'll take you to see a building how we make them today. Véronique, it's modular; you wouldn't see it. And yesterday, we brought a mayor, we wanted to see his reaction. He told me, 'But I want it, actually, if it's...' He said, 'I want it, I'm really interested. Two months is much easier for me, a super clean construction site, etc. But I want to see.' He said, 'Okay, it's good, I want that for me.' So I think this is the beginning of the story. But I think we can immediately gain a few percentage points. When you see what I saw very concretely yesterday, it addresses two constraints that are often opposed: purchasing power, cost, and environmental impact, notably with problems of construction site acceptance, logistics problems. And in reality, it's virtuous on both sides. So it's good for the wallet because clearly there is an impact on purchasing power that is undeniable, really undeniable. That's what's impressive for me to see for the cost, and at the same time, it's good for the planet because we encourage the French, as we said at the conference yesterday, to do energy renovation work. We'll talk about that in a few moments. At the same time, we can only understand that some households on tight budgets cannot undertake the work. 2031, so it's really very high low-carbon. So there are paths. Frankly, I can have the blues and I do from time to time, but frankly, the salon we had yesterday with all those around us, I think the relationship with our ecosystem has changed. For example, we used to have suppliers who did things. Today, we build this salon with partners; we don't just buy things from them. They work with us, they hear what we need, they are working with us on renovation. Yesterday, we obviously had all the technical teams for new housing, but I also had all the technical teams for syndics and management who came to see. Finally, institutional investors who were there, you had Anne-Sophie Grave who was present, the President and CEO of Celia Habitat, and Fabrice... It's France, after all, French schools produce the most Nobel prizes in the world. And we are in an emergency, so the French will have to think and quickly find solutions to all these environmental problems. Yesterday, as a journalist and observer of this real estate sphere, all the solutions were there. In fact, there are things. It's the second year we do it. It's extremely well defined. And you highlighted the commitment of industrialists to have collective thinking. You have made disciplines that did not speak to each other porous. And I believe your salon has this virtue: bringing together disciplines that did not meet. There is a real commitment. We are always stronger when we are together. And yesterday, I said to myself, 'Well, there are solutions.' I was really very proud of what we presented to everyone. We were fighting for it. But is your next battle horse going to be the 2020 finance bill? Because that's also the moment when the profession can influence favorable measures for households. It's also texts. The zero-interest loan, I think the federations have started this work. For once, the federations are in Parliament, they have started this work. I think honestly, for all parliamentarians, the work of the CNR is available. There was a lot of work. We may not agree with all the solutions. Frankly, the CNR was very pleasant. We were... but I want to say it, because fundamentally, it was a collective work. We saw people arrive. We said the CNR had at least one virtue: it had that. I think the reaction of Christophe the next morning was to tell me, 'Véronique, there was such force, there were so many committed actors, and it was very impressive.' It's been 7 years that I've been in this sector. There are people I discovered, committed people. And everyone was even ready to find compromises. Imagine, at the point of consensus we were at to move things forward, we were even capable of presenting several solutions, saying we don't know which is the best, but we really need to go for it. And what a shame not to have used this force. It's a committed civil society. You know the housing sector like me; people are passionate. There is a kind of energy. It's a sector that is transforming, that really works. What a shame, quite simply. If we also have to move on to our subject, we mention the usury rate but also the subjects of energy renovation in the melting pot of real estate. Clearly, the usury rate and the vacillations, as I will borrow from my friend Virginie earlier, the vacillations of the HCSF are inexplicable. But I don't have a reputation for being necessarily very moderate. I would like us to talk again and feel things a little. We have the impression, Virginie, that the government ultimately does not intend to change the decisions of the HCSF. In short, we will always stay on this norm, especially.

The question is not at the level of the HCSF. The question is at the level of the cost of bank financing. We are not there yet. There was another small tightening by the ECB: plus 0.25%. So while rates were stable around 3%, usury revised monthly until the end of the year, since this micro-relaxation of nothing for investors went from 4 to 6% of total production. That's a few tens of thousands of operations, but it's peanuts. The problem is not the debt constraints or anything else. That's really secondary to me. I hear it, but as long as banks are not comfortable lending with everything that suits them, that covers the risk, HCSF or not, nothing will happen. So we clearly see that we are there. So there won't be any, frankly. The HCSF is a bit mistaken. So what happens before then? In that case, how does it work if we have a policy of Touba? Ultimately, aren't banks facing the same difficulties? What makes it so that today we have policies? Now, what has changed is that they look not only at the financing capacity, the type of property, the travel, they ask questions they didn't ask before. That has completely changed. The only good news I find for first-time buyers, we were talking about new generations, for now it's the drop in real estate prices. It was time. Prices have doubled. That's very important because some are not happy about it, but if you don't have a donation, if you don't have a personal contribution, if you don't have the help of parents, how do you do it? Real estate markets, and I think Véronique Bédague will confirm that whether it's office, retail, logistics, residential in all its forms and all these declinations, we have lived almost a decade of liquidity at all costs. There was money to finance everything. Banks were less 40, but the level of risk was relatively moderate, and above all, the cost was limited. We are no longer in that context at all. The change is very brutal. In 18 months, it's four times more expensive. So the drop in household debt capacity is very hard, and even more because we have that limit, HCSF, it's a whole context.

So what happens before then? In that case, how does it work if we have a policy of Touba? Ultimately, aren't banks facing the same difficulties? What makes it so that today we have policies?

Now, what has changed is that they look not only at the financing capacity, the type of property, the travel, they ask questions they didn't ask before. That has completely changed. The only good news I find for first-time buyers, we were talking about new generations, for now it's the drop in real estate prices. It was time. Prices have doubled. That's very important because some are not happy about it, but if you don't have a donation, if you don't have a personal contribution, if you don't have the help of parents, how do you do it? Real estate markets, and I think Véronique Bédague will confirm that whether it's office, retail, logistics, residential in all its forms and all these declinations, we have lived almost a decade of liquidity at all costs. There was money to finance everything. Banks were less 40, but the level of risk was relatively moderate, and above all, the cost was limited. We are no longer in that context at all. The change is very brutal. In 18 months, it's four times more expensive. So the drop in household debt capacity is very hard, and even more because we have that limit, HCSF, it's a whole context.

So to conclude, there is this subject, we obviously react to the subject, but I would like us not to leave before the weather report of Limoux also on the subject of my renovation bonus and the energy renovation. It's a real subject. Véronique Bédague, a reaction to what was said?

How are you, my dear Philippe? Very well, and you, Sylvain? Great, when I see you, everything is fine. You're going to give us the weather. It's hot outside. The weather report of Limoux, Philippe de Lunéville, the Deputy General Manager of Bien'ici, in charge of marketing and data. What's the weather like outside?

Yes, so as every month, we'll do a little update on our vision of the real estate market seen from Bien'ici, from our portal. So a global overview. We are already in June, well advanced. We've already talked about it before. The market is relatively calm since the beginning of the year. Nothing moves, especially in transactions. The same trends: the number of ads continues to increase on the site, +7% compared to last month, up to 45% compared to last year. So agencies are rebuilding their portfolios. Demand is still wait-and-see, slightly down compared to last year. There are more properties, so people take their time. I've already said that several times. It's still the case. There is something new, however, on rental. Because on rental, last year, a decrease in the number of ads, a very strong increase, explosion in demand, a rebound effect from what we said earlier about the rise in rates. People stay on rental, look more for rental. So a very active market. It's a bit different at the beginning of the year. Demand stopped increasing, ads continue to decrease. And in fact, we find that it's an indirect effect: people move less, buy less, so move less from their rental. And landlords tell us, exits from rental are weaker and weaker. So that's quite new. We had Parcoursup on June 1st, which normally is the time when the real estate market for students, the small apartments, used to start. For now, it remains calm. So we always have a fairly uncertain, changeable weather in real estate, and we still have difficulty projecting ourselves. So we said, let's look at ancillary markets. What do we see on the house and apartment market, which is the main market? Do we see it on the ancillary market? We looked at parking spaces and boxes. So, are the trends the same? Does it experience the same conjuncture? So some figures on parking spaces and boxes: roughly, it's a small part of the market, 1.5% of our ads. So it's a small share. It's a fairly balanced market between second-hand and sales: about 40% on sales and 60% on rentals. And obviously a market that is very urban: urban areas, city centers, with large cities representing the majority of supply. Then, in terms of prices, the advertised price for a parking space or box is around 25,000 euros, with disparities. Some cities are higher, notably Nice, which we find with almost 10,000 euros more. And rental is around 83 euros per parking space and per box, which gives a gross yield roughly equivalent to a classic apartment. So the question: is it a good investment to invest in parking spaces and boxes? One sense, yes, why? Because rental prices increase faster than sales prices, and that's quite unprecedented and very different from what happens with apartments. So we have a profitability that increases over time on parking spaces and boxes, despite the fact that in cities mainly there is a drastic reduction in the number of cars. Several things: in cities, there is a need for more and more parking spaces because there is also the legislation on parking. Now in Paris, for example, two-wheelers must pay for parking. I know something about it; I got three fines the first weeks. And then to continue, it shifts the market. That is, today, in city centers, there are issues with parking and fewer cars, but in suburbs or TGV cities, there will be demand around stations. So in conclusion, it seems that it's a rather calmer territory where the weather is a bit calmer. Parking, we see more visibility on both demand and supply, and a little less regulation. The DPE on a parking space but which will have to make its energy transition anyway because the arrival of electric vehicles will force all owners to equip with charging stations. Absolutely. It's even a preferred asset class for small investors. There was even a site called Mister Parking specialized in the subject.

We will soon leave, but I wanted to talk about the issue of Le Point in which you take Parisian prices, notably with a study you conducted. Earlier, before going on air with Véronique Bédague, we looked at things and finally, Véronique had almost an invisible border between East and West since there is a color code from the lowest at less than 8,900 euros to bright red at more than 12,900 euros. It's in the June issue of Le Point. Bruno, a few comments?

We have the impression that Paris gradually, it both goes down but we see that the Parisian east-west border remains invisible. It's interesting to map Paris in color; we really realize much more the disparities. We see this crescent: 19th, 20th, 12th, and we go down to 13th, 14th where prices are at the beginning of the scale. And then all the West, it's not a scoop, but with the 16th, 17th, the 15th is a little in between, etc. What else do we see? This is something recurrent: in fact, to know how much an apartment costs in Paris, it's quite easy. You go have a coffee at the counter downstairs and you'll already get a little idea. And then if you go up, in my early years of investigation, if you go up metro stations from the edges of the ring road to the center, you add between 500 and 700 euros roughly per metro station. It doesn't work in the 16th, but it works everywhere else. And you get roughly your figure. No, what we see is that there are untouchable neighborhoods: Invalides, Opéra, Châtelet, Panthéon, Étoile, part of the 16th of course, Parc Monceau, for the Marais, it's red. The Marais is also red. The Marais has become expensive. There are still some contrasts in the 9th arrondissement, which is a gentrifying neighborhood. We are between Pigalle and Rochechouart, so obviously. And then globally on Paris, there is a price drop of about 5% that is noted everywhere, except on exceptional properties. When we say a drop, always be careful with percentages because a 5% drop is actually a mini-mini correction. You know, in 20 years, how much have Parisian arrondissements increased? Between the one that increased the least and the one that increased the most, between 200 and 320%. In 20 years. And now we drop by 5%. So people think it's a big deal, but no, it's just a correction. It's the beginning of saying something is happening, a new story. For those who bought at the high, if they don't sell for 10 years, they are still safe. But if it goes down as you say with an inversion, the wake-up call will be harsh. The problem in Paris is that compared to... they made 300% capital gains. We talk a lot about people who can't find housing, but we don't talk about people who made huge capital gains and who today will be forced to take a hit, not out of goodness of heart or philanthropy, but because mechanically people can no longer afford it. You said it, there are structural reasons and conjunctural factors that have been added to that, which make it so that people can no longer go there. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. That was for the real estate weather report. It's time to conclude our show. It went well, Véronique Bédague? Very well, thank you. We were delighted to have you on the set. Véronique Bédague, I remind you that you are the Chairwoman and CEO of the Nexity group. Thank you also to Charlotte Tequin, our producer, who will join us shortly. Thank you, Philippe de Lunéville, and good health to you. And Bien'ici, since I remind you that when you hear 'record', you are the third French portal. So there you go, Bien'ici. Thank you once again. Thank you to Bruno, Bruno Monnier-Vinard, journalist at Le Point. Thank you to Virginie Grelot, journalist at Challenges. And thank you, my partner. We cross the cities of France; we go to Angoulême next week, absolutely, with Olivier Marin, editor-in-chief of Figaro Immobilier. Thank you also to the teams: Théo, Jason, Bâtisse. Thank you also to your teams, Véronique, who are listening to us: Anne, Maxime, Nicolas, Cyril. It's always a pleasure to work with you. Until then, take care of yourselves. We'll meet again since it's our last episode before the back-to-school. Yes, in September, I think we'll have a lot to say. Take care of yourselves. It's very hot again. And long live housing, and especially long live the young people who can't find a job, a school, and housing at the same time. That's the fight we will lead. To everyone, good evening.