Serbia's Aleksandar Vučić: Putin, Zelensky & the Next Big War

I think that we are at the beginning of a bigger war and that's why I was hoping that someone else would have done something so far in order to create a peace. It didn't happen and it won't happen soon. Which means that we are on the edge of a much, much bigger one.

First of all, we have met each other many times and both Russians and Ukrainians, they have always been traditional friends of Serbia, Slavic as we used to say and brothers. And Ukraine is an important partner and speaking even about the level of trade, he successfully increased and improved that from let's say 30, 40 million up to half a billion of euros. And all the numbers are going down. And I can tell you in a way that Western media were always exaggerating and predicting and this Crimea view as Russia's puppet state and whatever else which was not true because they were always a sovereign nation. On the other hand, you have the guys and cannot say the majority of the population, but a big portion of our people that are as a matter of fact very much anti-Ukrainian oriented, not because they have something against Ukraine, but they have many things very much in favor of Russia. I was taking care.

First of all, the main topic of our presentation was Europe and I was explaining something that I was writing and signing together with Edi Rama and it's an issue of unique market, open borders within Europe because I believe that speaking in a realistic way we cannot expect to become a part of European Union until 2030 or even further more. And having that in mind, wanted to discuss it with Ukraine because I'm less optimistic than President Zelensky is about Ukrainian European path as well and I was not hiding it. I said to him what I thought and that's it. They wanted to hear him and learned a lot from him about his experiences, his thoughts and his expectations. At the end, I think it was very important to make a better cooperation between our two countries regarding EU path of both of us and how we can, cannot say fully coordinate but at least cooperate on that path and how we can better understand our future out of the EU or within the EU.

Actually we did speak about it and of course we spoke about war, we spoke about everything else but we are building that factory, drone factory with Israelis and this plant will be open by the end of September. And yeah, that was something that he knew and it's going to be I believe pretty much sophisticated drones that were produced so far only by Israelis and now those drones will be produced in Serbia as well. But we discussed free trade agreement and we discussed an overall situation which is very important because for you it's you have your sides and Serbia has no side. We are militarily neutral country. We are on EU path and will be on EU path.

This decision, Matthias, was in favor of Serbia. We were bringing and making decisions in accordance with Serbia's interests, not in the interests of any other country. And I'm not here to please Russians, to please Ukrainians, to please anyone else but Serbians. And I see that there were a lot of misunderstandings in Serbia. I'm now seen as a biggest traitor because I was meeting President Zelensky. Like that was not my job because if someone's against Russia, you don't have your right to meet him. And I cannot say that I can say that nothing that we talked was bad for Serbia or bad for Ukraine. We discussed even participation of Ukrainian company in our important infrastructural projects and these talks were very serious. We were discussing like a global political map in a way that we both understood because not only because of the fact that we are both Slavs that our nations have always been close to each other but we try to understand what was going on in Europe, what was going on in the United States, what's going on in Russia and all over the world. And I think it was very useful meeting for both of us. I know that no one actually absolutely no one likes and appreciates this type of politics and everybody was saying you have many different chairs you have to pick one and that's it. Yes, we picked that. That's Serbian chair. Why? Why I say this? This is we have our strategic goal which is full-fledged membership status in European Union. Number two, we want to keep our traditional ties not only with Russia but with China, India and all the other countries with African countries. With many of them we were together in that non-aligned movement 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago and this is something that we believe serves the best for Serbian interests and that I'm right. I have some proofs. First half of this year, Serbia was number one country speaking about the level of growth rate in Europe, 3.5%. Next year is foreseen by an IMF, by World Bank, not by me that we are going to be at a level of 4.5 and we expect 4.3 but anyway we'll be number one even next year. You cannot divide you know like global politics, international politics and your economic situation because it's like everything is related to each other and everything is interconnected. And this what I think that we were doing in the very best interest of Serbia and that was it. And to tell you the truth we'll have elections within 70, 80 days and I don't care what people will say. I care what people will say to me but I don't care what people will criticize regarding something that I believe very much that we did in the very best interest of Serbian people. There was nothing bad in Zelensky's visit, to the contrary, and I believe that this will be seen in the future. And on the other hand I'll have to speak, doesn't matter whether it's going to be within 7 days or 1 month, with Putin on oil industry of Serbia because you know that we have these problems with sanctions. Anything else?

We haven't been delivering to Ukraine our ammunition but what was happening actually and we discussed it with Russia as well. We were selling our ammunition to some or to many Western partners, to some African countries as well and then that armament and the ammunition was ending in a way in Ukraine. And Zelensky, he knew our rules, he knew everything and we were discussing issues what we going to do even after the war, what we can do together on third markets even regarding defense industry but not direct deliverance or whatever. And we were discussing also financial support from Serbia how to revive, renew some of smaller towns in Ukraine, something that we'll invest to. We discussed all the other issues but this was not an issue.

He was, we know each other. We were meeting each other for many years and we have always had good contacts and good relationship because I do understand his position and I believe that he does understand my position and we have a very thorough and a very compelling discussion on many issues. This is all I could say.

I didn't speak to him because I'm not announcing my political agenda to anyone because Serbia is not a puppet of any other country in the world. We have our own agenda and we take care of our foreign policy. That's it. I didn't speak to him like he didn't speak to me meeting Trump or Witkoff, Kushner, all the others or Europeans or whoever else. We are an independent country and this will remain the same in the future.

No, I saw a lot of words of criticism against myself. Always pretty much the same journalist, but with no real arguments, you know. Even here, it's very strange in Serbia, those big patriots that would always say Vučić is not defending our national interests in a proper way, that were always speaking about Kosovo. Even when Zelensky was saying, yes, we do advocate, we do support territorial integrity of Serbia in accordance with UN charter or any other resolutions. They went against him once again and against me because even Kosovo doesn't matter because some people had to be aligned only with Russia and I am aligned only with Serbia's interests, not with Russians. Of course they were criticizing me and they are criticizing me and they will continue so. And in a way that I was criticized by many in the West and that's it. I'm keeping my position and will always think that's the best position of Serbia. And if you ask me whether I'm going to ask anyone else in the future who I'm going to meet and what I'm going to speak about, I will never do it. Otherwise I'll never be in a position of the president or prime minister or whatever in this country.

I have less contacts recently than it used to be the case. We were seeing each other not once but several times a year. Had a mutual respect there to say and I spoke to him I don't know exactly 21 times, 22 times and was visiting Russia many times. He was visiting Serbia as well and yeah we used to have, will always have traditional ties with Russia and also we have always been commemorating Victory Day on 9th of May always together because that army had a huge impact on our liberation of Serbia. And also we have huge economic interests. We are still getting majority of gas quantities from Russia and at the same time they are still owners of our oil industry which was sold to them by previous government in 2008. As you know, as you can see, a lot of common denominators, a lot of common interests and it was very regular, very normal to discuss all these issues with a friendly country as it was and as it is Russia. But what was not true, what was always like tried to be dictated to everybody in Europe was the fact that we were depicted as Russian puppets, as little Russians, whatever, which has never been the case. We are proud Serbs and we have always been taking care of our country and our nation. And speaking about Vladimir Putin, he is an intelligent person. He is also a man that I don't know whether he likes to hear it or not but he was able to hear different opinion on different issues from the other people. At least he was ready to listen to me even when I was thinking differently.

Matthias, even if I see something, even if I feel something, I cannot speak about it because no doubt that I have changed myself. It's regular. It's normal that people are changed. And I cannot define it properly and I would overestimate my knowledge and even my nose if I will start speaking about it. I really expect that we'll get to a peaceful solution at the end.

You have both leadership and both countries under big pressure, both in Russia and Ukraine. And it's not easy for anyone who is losing hundreds or tons of soldiers on a daily basis. And not only that, it's not an easy, it cannot be an easy economic situation during the war in any single country. I can imagine how difficult that is for both Russian and Ukrainians. If you ask me about my forecast, I don't see the end of the war this year and I don't see the end of the war before next spring. I'll tell you why. I think that one side has to be stronger and this or another way victorious in order to stop the war. Otherwise in today's stalemate I don't see the possibility for possible compromise and solutions.

I cannot say anything on behalf of him. I can have some predictions for myself, but it could be irresponsible speaking about it publicly and openly. But what I believe is that he wants to take control of entire Donbas and then I think he'll be ready for the end of the war.

And that will build from his point of view it's probably.

Matthias, you're speaking about hybrid war that was ongoing or launched by Russia against Germany and some other European countries, but it's pretty much the same that Europe was doing against Russia or even more, or even what Europe was doing against Russia was more than that. You were arming up. You were sanctioning Russia. You were at the same time financially supporting Ukraine. What is that? If not a hybrid war against Russia, they were doing pretty much the same. It doesn't mean that I agree with that, but I'm telling you that there is an easy justification, right? If they really do so. And here from here we noticed we had some examples and we as a matter of fact operated even with your intelligence agencies in order to prevent some of these private attacks. We had some successes very recently and I could do it with your public, got his information. But what you all need to do, it's more of a rational approach. You need to put yourself into, but yes I know that it's very difficult to speak to people when they are one-sided, but you need to put yourself into both shoes and Putin and then to make some conclusions and rational decisions otherwise it will lead us nowhere.

I'll tell you what would if I were them what would I do. But if I were American president and if I were big European leader as German leaders or French leader or whatever, I wouldn't wait for full exhaustion of Russian troops and would not wait for the certain moment where we believe that Russia will become much weaker because of that war in Ukraine. I would work tirelessly on a daily basis in order to bring two sides to a negotiating table and once again in order to stop the war as soon as possible to make true ceasefire, whatever you call it. When people stop killing each other then everything will become more possible. Speaking about final agreement and that can be refused by one side, by both sides, whatever, thousands of times, even after 1,000 times I would still be insisting on because if you analyze today's situation I believe that and I know that at the end you can agree with me on this, nobody wants to see peace. Everybody wants to see the defeat of the other side. And there are people in the world that would like to see the real peace, not the peace that will fit our interests. But we need peace. Doesn't matter what peace, that peace is better than the war. And then you're going to say, 'But we don't need that. It's going to be justification of invasion and that and that.' Hey, come on. What was the justification of invasion against Serbia? And it was better to reach that arrangement after 78 days of war with NATO from our side and from NATO side as well in 1999 than to continue that war. And it's always a better option and then you start negotiating and then you do something whatever. It's always by far the best possible option. This is what I believe and I know that everybody will spit on my statements because they will say he is doing that for the other side. Today I am the most criticized person in Western media and at the very same day which is Sunday, take a look I don't know 9th or something like that of August, the most criticized person in Russian media as well. And it gives me a right to say what I really think about and it cannot be the case that I am that very much disliked from both because I was taking care of one fight. No, I'm trying to say the truth, but I'm not sure that anyone wants to hear the truth.

A lot has changed. I learned a lot. First of all, I learned a lot. And you're right. Ukraine showed the ability, real ability to defend itself and at the same time, you know, it was unimaginable for me that Russia can lose a sort of influence in both Caucasus republics, Azerbaijan and Armenia, which today seems to be inevitable. And it shows to me that politically speaking things were and things looked different than I saw it five, six years ago. But speaking about Serbia, from the very first moment we were having like a very rational, very objective approach, supporting territorial integrity of Ukraine, UN charter, which is very principled and at the same time we were, as you have already said, the only country that did not impose sanctions over Russia. But you need to understand that we were under sanctions of Europe and United States of America for many years and we know how does it go and it would be like doing against someone something that we were victims of in the past and it was very difficult for us and I believe that we brought up at the end a good decision, a good decision for Serbia.

I cannot speak about many things that are actually changed in the world openly because that will harm political position of my country which I love the most and that's it. But what I was able to say I believe that I have already said to you.