Help us understand your position in relation to Russia. You were presenting yourself as a beacon of democracy. Russia was a beacon of evil, which is not true.
Broadly speaking, we are more democratic than Russia, right? I mean, the gray nuances, but there are different cultures. There are different traditions. You were always speaking about Serbia that was a Russian puppet.
Okay. Or never said that. What does it feel like looking back to the fact that we were enemies and we're now sitting around a table together?
Many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders. We have principles unlike you, Alistair, from time to time.
Welcome to The Rest Is Politics: Leading, with me, Alistair Campbell, and with me, Rory Stewart. And we are in the presidential palace in Belgrade, capital of Serbia, with Aleksandar Vučić. Now, when I first came across Mr. Vučić, he was in charge of the government information machine under Slobodan Milošević. I had a similar role in the UK. And then when we were at war over Kosovo at NATO, he rose through politics first to become prime minister and now for the last nine years has been president. We have got a lot to get through.
Mr. President, thank you very much for doing the interview. Can we start in Kosovo? I mean, it's a strange connection for us. I was a British diplomat based with the military in Montenegro and Kosovo during the war, and of course, as he's pointed out, he was also working on Kosovo. So what does it feel like looking back over 26, 27 years to the fact that we were enemies and we're now sitting around a table together today?
If you ask ordinary Serbian people what they feel about 1999 and how they felt, they feel even bigger resentment. They feel bigger disappointment with the behavior of 19 countries that launched aggression against a sovereign state. And people are absolutely certain, which is even confirmed by almost everybody, that was done not in accordance with UN Charter, not in accordance with UN Resolution 1244. That was done not because of preventing humanitarian disaster as it was said by Alistair and some other smart guys, but it was actually something the West did in order to separate 14% of Serbia's territory, which was at least attempted to be done eight years later in 2008 when they had the self-proclamation of their independence.
As a young man, you were very much on the nationalist side of the political debate. Looking back, do you draw a distinction between the wars in Bosnia and the war in Kosovo? Do you have a different attitude towards what...
It's a different legal situation. The roots, you can find a common denominator speaking about the roots or the cause of the clashes in Croatia, Bosnia, and the Serbian southern province. But at the end, it was a different legal situation.
And you went through a transition. And I believe initially you had been supportive, and there were moments where it seemed as though you were earlier defensive of figures like Mladić, but later you supported the movement for trials.
First of all, I believe I have changed my views, not only recently, it's a process. But it has nothing in common with the bombardment of Serbia or that aggression that was launched in 1999. But whether I am more pragmatic, more rational, whether I see the future of Serbia not in new wars but in opening borders in the entire Balkans, opening borders with Europe. This is what I see, and I'm not ashamed. I'm not ashamed to say this. Even that with Mladić was exaggerated because you saw those labels with his name that I was sticking somewhere. But it was not about that. It was about legal rights of some people to protest that were arrested. But you know, you cannot explain everything to everybody. But anyway, I just wanted to tell you that what is the real issue today in the Balkans that people don't want to understand, because for you, as Alistair has just said, it's all over. We won the war. Yep. You were stronger. 19 strongest countries in the world were stronger than one small Serbia. And it was not the case that Serbia attacked any of your countries. It was the case that you attacked Serbia. But people here are proud, dignified, and they don't forget it. And I like the fact that we are more rational, that we are future-oriented. But if you ask the people about their souls, about their opinions, you're going to hear 90% of the same what I have just told you.
But is that part of the reason why you, as the leader of the country, also have to say it? Can you not look back and think actually at the conduct of Milošević and the attempted ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians and some of the massacres that took place, that the 19 countries would actually have been doing a disservice to humanity if we hadn't stepped in?
I really disagree with you on this, and I'm not going to... I'll discuss part of your sentence, which is 'don't look back to the past.' Because would you say the same to Ukrainians with Crimea? Why do you look back to the past in 2014? You lost that Crimea. Why do you still claim that it's your territory? You would never do so.
I didn't hear it from any Western officials. Well, I think part of the reason why Putin has gone on to do what he thinks he can do in the whole of Ukraine is because the world didn't stand up enough. But my point is...
I can tell you many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders, or at least you thought that you finished your job, okay, in 1999 and 2008. And that was the way that Pandora's box was opened. Actually, when you say, if you ask all European officials today, if you ask all of them, tell me, how can you not be on Ukrainian side? We support territorial integrity of Ukraine. We act in accordance with UN Charter, UN resolutions, and everything else. But my question to you is, why are you still... we have 1244 resolution in effect? It has not been dismantled or abolished. No, it's in effect. Why don't you observe that resolution?
And it's not okay, Alistair. There are no responses to that. Whenever I say this, I hear the same sentence: 'Don't look back to the past.' And then I say I don't look back to the past. You asked me the question, right? You wanted me to say this to you, otherwise we would have spoken about, I don't know, export, growth rates, GDP, public debt to GDP ratio, and everything else.
Yeah. And listen, we've got 45 minutes and I want to cover lots of that. And just, and I do want to look forward, but the truth is, regardless of the history, and you and I can go backwards and forwards on that, one of your strategic goals, as I mentioned at the outset, is for Serbia to become a member of the European Union, right?
It's never going to happen unless this issue gets somehow resolved. It's never going to happen. If you remember, and I know that you remember, you two are very smart guys. Not going to flatter you furthermore, but you know something. And you remember when you, how you emphasized that you won the war? It's a different type of victories we had. Although I have never said that we won. We didn't. But I don't think that you won.
Sorry, just unpick that. What do you mean by that?
You opened that Pandora's box, and we'll all have a big pain in the future because of opening that Pandora's box.
Do you think, you think that relates to Iran today?
Yes. Yeah, it's related to everything that was happening after that. And you know, all these politicians were saying the first attack in Europe, the first violation of territorial integrity happened in Ukraine. No, it's not true. It happened here. It happened here. You were guaranteeing, Alistair, you were guaranteeing us territorial integrity of Serbia if we accept territorial integrity and independence of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Macedonia. Accept. You don't accept.
No. And you don't accept that Slobodan Milošević did anything which justified...
No, I don't say that we were angels. I don't say that we were like people without any faults, without any guilt.
No, but we were not the only culprit, no doubt, for everything that was happening here. And I'm here speaking about the observance of international public law, which is very clear, and you cannot provide any kind of responses, even as a very smart man, and not any other guy can do that. The real issue is...
We can argue about that, but we'll take another five minutes of the interview.
No, it can take even ten. Speaking about massacres and everything else, it was happening on both sides. It was exaggerated from your side about their destiny. It was also from our side. We were pretending that there were no war crimes on our side, but there were. But at the same time, there were many war crimes that not only Albanians, but foreign troops were committing against us as well. But okay, put that aside. Now the question is, Pandora's box is opened now. No one will stop it. No one will stop it till some new world order is produced, and that's it. And it was all about Yugoslavia, or Serbia if you like it.
Mr. President, you did a very interesting op-ed with President Rama suggesting a new possibility for resolving this problem. And basically, our listeners looking at Serbia, looking at a map, will think this is crazy. Why is Serbia not in the European Union? It's like this big hole. Bulgaria, Romania, which are further east, are in the European Union, Serbia not, right? I was interested in it because maybe this also resolves the Kosovo situation. If you join the single market, join Schengen, maybe even if Kosovo did the same, then the borders don't matter. Northern Mitrovica is more integrated, it's easier for people to move back and forth. Can you explain a bit about this idea?
I can. And it's very easy. That was my idea with an open Balkans as well. That's what we wanted. And then it was interrupted because some European big powers were not having a steering wheel in their hands. And...
But tell us more about the idea.
I'll tell you what is the overall idea. You know, Serbs lost 29% of its overall population in the First World War. We started First World War two months before you started, and we were the country with, speaking about proportional numbers, of course, with the biggest losses in the First World War. Us, then French, then all the others. Second World War, only Serbs were at the beginning of the war anti-Nazi oriented. Only Belgrade was bombed, as you know. All the others were receiving German tanks and German troops with flowers and greetings. Belgrade has never done it, and we paid a big price for that as well. And we are fed up with wars. My idea was, and I wanted to finish, and I still want to finish my mandate, my tenure, without having any wars. And we were accused by your press, by everybody in Great Britain, thousands of times in the last four and a half years since the war in Ukraine started, that small Serbia, those Russian puppets, will launch a war against someone in the Balkans in order to distract our attention from Russia and blah blah blah. And I was listening to that for more than four years, and I have never heard a word of apology or whatever. Never ever. We want to keep peace, and we invested into that peace. And my idea is, and our idea was, our common idea was, okay, open the Balkans area for all of us. Doesn't matter entities, states, countries, whatever you call it. Everybody is free to move. Can you imagine how much easier would be for a Bosniak from Novi Pazar to go to Sofia, particularly when we finish this highway towards the Bosnian border? Much easier, two hours, two and a half hours, easy for them. No borders. For Bosniaks from Sofia to go to Novi Pazar, for a Serb from Banja Luka to come to Belgrade, for a Serb from Bujanovac to come to Belgrade, and vice versa. For Serbs in Kosovo, they will always say we live in Serbia. Pristina will always say they live in Kosovo, but they will easily go to Pristina. They will easily go to Belgrade. They will easily go to Herceg Novi, wherever they want. That was an idea. And to connect us economically. And you know, you have to work with the governments, with the local, regional countries, entities, authorities. That's it. And no one will never ever put in jeopardy that kind of peace.
And he was mentioning if you don't recognize Kosovo's independence, you are not going to be a part of the European Union. Now, the European Union is discussing full-fledged membership status for Ukraine. We have nothing against it, to be very frank, very open. But what would be the territory that will join Europe?
But they're also saying...
Does it mean that Europe will fight for that territory? Or there are still five non-recognizers within the European Union of Kosovo. What are you going to do with those countries? Because you will never ever be able to force Spain never ever to recognize Kosovo's independence because of their own interests.
We had President Zelensky on the podcast recently, and he is very frustrated with Europe as well because he thinks he's making reform, he's making progress, but he still has to go through a process. You have to go through processes. Okay. Now, I think Marta, the commissioner, is interested in this idea of getting everybody in and then sort of making the process part of the accession, as it were. But at the same time, you have been...
We don't share the same views about...
No, I know that. But you, and the reason is because you've been criticized...
At least it's not boring with you.
You've been criticized for backsliding on media, rule of law, judiciary, and all this stuff.
Just tell me what is the backsliding with judiciary. I do understand now. We are revoking something and we'll do our job, and I accept it. I cannot accept all the arguments, but okay, I accept it. Our fault. Tell me about media. What did I do and what did we do regarding media? You have more media against me here than against any other leader in the region.
No. Let's not take too long on that. But...
Okay. Okay. Then you know what you're doing.
No. Because you... Okay. Okay.
You bring this. Mr. President, I think my understanding of the nature of this argument is that you would say that social media is free and quite aggressive against you. Your...
Would say that there are television channels that are very much on your side, that the coverage during the election was predominantly on your side, that it's not necessarily formal control. It's also where the advertisers go and the influence put...
I cannot more agree with you, at least on something. There are TV channels that are on my side, private channels. The state TV, now they say it's not, it's a modern language, it's a public broadcaster. Yes, it's a public broadcaster. They're totally not on my side. And during these revolutionary times, they shifted themselves absolutely to the other side. Now they are relatively more objective, but they were absolutely on their side. So...
Let me tell you that there are no small media. There are mainstream media that are very much against us, owned by big tycoons which invested huge amounts of money in propaganda and lies against me, and that's it. And you know, can you understand the argument where someone is casting spells against you? Even adding that your father actually is not your father because your mother was a... and she was cheating your alleged father with one Albanian, and that's why are you so much pro-Albanian.
Do you think people are...
And it was not said on social media, but mainstream media. That's terrible, and I agree that is terrible.
Do you think people were unfair to Viktor Orbán? Do you think the West misunderstood him?
I believe that people are always right. That's what I believe. I'm a friend of Viktor Orbán. I was, and I will always be.
And why be your friend? What did you like about him?
I liked his openness. We disagreed on many things. Let's say when he was bringing decisions against Central European University and something else, I was asking them to come to Belgrade because I wanted to have a diversity of universities and faculties. I had no problems with that, and I asked him, I was very open with him. He became a big world-known leader. He started taking care about global south, fighting against big guys in Europe and all over the world, against American Biden administration, Kamala, and all the others, which was not easy. He was courageous enough. But what was the real reason that we made a friendship was something that we did both, and he deserves everything to be praised. It's Hungarian-Serbian friendship.
You both know, you both know how difficult that relationship used to be throughout the history...
With the half million Hungarians in Serbia.
And beyond. But that's...
300,000. 300,000 Hungarians in Serbia.
But anyway, big number of people. Now we are brothers. We used to have... why I appreciate Viktor Orbán's role. 15 years ago we had almost 1,000 incidents, speaking about big brawls, clashes, physical clashes between Hungarians and Serbs in Vojvodina. Recent years, less than 30. 30 times less. Shapo, and thank you for that. Now I'm going to have good relationship with Péter Magyar. I'll do my best because this is something of the best interest for Serbian and Hungarian people. But I don't forget my friends, and I never do.
Could you see yourself ever developing that kind of relationship with Kurti? So you say you've got this very difficult situation. You and Viktor Orbán get together and you develop a relationship and you fix it. Is it utterly impossible to think you might do that with Albin Kurti in Kosovo?
I'll define my response in an easy way. There is no man in the world that can have that kind of relationship with Albin Kurti. Full stop.
So this thing's going nowhere.
You cannot even find that kind of relationship with Karen Pierce.
Okay. Mr. President, can I bring you back to this idea of the single market as a way of solving the European...
I was always more interested in resolving internal issues, more focused on growth rate of Serbia, more focused on reindustrialization of Serbia, digitization of Serbia. This was my topic. He became a big world leader, and then people in Hungary missed him. They missed his presence.
No, no, they missed his presence before.
Oh, because he went away. Yeah. Yeah. Because he was tackling the other issues. And I was saying that to him, and he said to me, 'Aleksandar, I'm experienced.' I said, 'I believe you. You know better than I do.' And...
Did he think he was going to win?
I believe that he trusted in his posters in a way. Although he was saying to me that it was neck and neck, but two days after, it was not an easy conversation between two of us because it was an emotional one, and we were speaking. It was a relatively long telephone conversation, open line, but he said to me, 'Whatever you were saying to me, you were right.' And that there was something else. As a lousy chess player, I was always more prudent and more cautious and less optimistic than he was. This is my nature. I'm always more prudent and more cautious. That's why I'm avoiding any kind of clashes, even with the small guys. Even take care of your things, of your job, then go somewhere else.
Mr. President, we are more, as you know, on the Kamala Harris side of politics. But maybe you can explain to us what is it do you think that liberals like us don't understand about what Viktor Orbán was trying to say or what Donald Trump is trying to do? What is the case for the more right-wing style of politics?
I'll be very honest. I cannot justify every single move of Donald Trump. But if you ask me whether I do understand American people that voted for Donald Trump, yes.
Tell us about it. If I were American, I would have voted for Donald Trump. And you are now in a country where he used to have by far the highest level of popularity in the entire world, apart from the... no, much bigger than in the United States. It was 74, 75% popularity.
Now it's lower, but many other world leaders...
And why do they like him? What do they like about him and about that politics that he represents?
First of all, people in Serbia, as I told you, they hate the Clinton administration because of 1999 and 2008, Democrats. These are historical reasons. Then people here are more conservative. If you see my two older kids, my son and my daughter, they're totally different. One would always belong as a conservative, as a religious guy, to Trump people. My daughter, although she's not lesbian, she supports all LGBT rights, all these alleged real liberal values and everything else. But people in Serbia are mainly conservative, traditional people. Many of them religious people, not only Orthodox people, but Muslim people.
You think Trump is religious?
No. But he was speaking about family values. He was speaking something against transgender or whatever else, and people here like that. These were the main reasons. At the end, they expected to get... people were jubilant to see changes in the United States, to find a friend in Washington after so many years, and they were, you know, like, cravingly trying to find a sufficient reason to say, 'Okay, it's not America that we are fighting against, you know, it was that administration.' We have nothing against American people, state, United States of America. We love that country. And this was the reason why Trump got such a huge popularity here.
Maybe to come back to this, I mean, we feel strongly that because of what America is now demonstrating to the world, trying to take Greenland, this operation in Iran...
Like you tried to get Kosovo together with them.
We didn't try to take Kosovo as our territory. The United States was trying to take Greenland as their territory. They're trying to annex the territory.
But you tried to do it eight years after, after you, as the world.
We're not trying to annex territory to our own country. We're not trying to separate it from the other countries.
That's a slightly separate question, right?
No, no. I think we should come back and do a whole series of us. It's pretty much the same.
Okay. So you see, you defend Trump on... you think that you think the United States taking...
I'm not even defending, I'm not even defending violation of international public law on Iran, although I believe that I'm a big friend of Israel. I believe so. The only flag that was hoisted here in front of this presidency, apart from Serbian flags and once European Union flag, was Jewish flag. I cannot justify absolutely everything, but whether I'm still a friend of Israel. Yes, I am.
But you also recognize a Palestinian state.
Yes. But also I cannot say that it's not a violation of international public law when you start attacking a sovereign country like Iran.
To develop this. We assume that...
We have principles, unlike you, Alistair, from time to time. And as the world reconfigures, our instinct is that the future of European countries is a deeper integration with Europe and the European Union.
Yes. As opposed to the United States. We cannot rely on the United States in the way that we have for the last 70 years.
I believe that we reached the point of no return. What I believe that Americans will do in the future, this is my guess, and they are smart and diligent people, as you know, and they will try to build their structures in Europe. Now, Trump reasonably will try to escape from further conflicts in Iran. That will end one important era, but will bring us to very complicated and very complex relationship all over the world. And I believe that United States and their politicians, it doesn't matter, you're going to see that it's not going to be totally changed even when Democrats come to power, if they come to power, because there are still two and a half years. But what I believe that will happen, I believe that Americans will build its own structure, taking five to ten countries in Europe, mainly in East Europe, under not their control but with the predominant influence of the United States of America, creating issues for the European Union. And that's why I don't understand the European Union, why those guys did not bring so far strategic decisions based even on that letter that was signed by Edi Rama and myself. I don't get it, to tell you the truth, because all the other decisions were political in the past, and we were not asking for veto right, we were not asking for commissioners, we were not asking even for bigger fundings, nothing.
So, Mr. President, to summarize, your idea is that by pushing ahead with Serbia, Albania, and presumably others joining the single market, all the others...
Yes. Joining the single market, because without all the others it has no sense. And you're bringing, I don't know, Montenegro and Moldova to Europe without Serbia. What's the sense?
Yeah. Bring them all into the single market. And one of the reasons strategically to do this is that if it doesn't happen, it provides an opportunity for the US to try to pull off the Eastern European countries away from the Western Europe.
Yes, not only some countries here, but if I were them, would have done the same. Smart people would have done it. And then they can speak to one structure in Poland, they are deeply divided, another structure in Romania, another structure in Bulgaria. It's not that easy for Europeans to keep control if Americans would like to make it differently.
Do you think one of the worries in Europe, in the European Union, is that what you and Edi put forward was a way of saying we can get in without doing all the things that Europe is asking us to do?
You don't think that's their suspicion?
No. I don't want to be rude. I am arrogant and impudent from time to time, as you know, dear Alistair and dear Rory, but I don't think so. When it was 2004, I believe, when Romania and Bulgaria joined the European Union, were they fulfilling all requirements, all demands? Even today, it's not.
Do you think any of the big powers in Europe actually want enlargement to continue?
If they don't, they're making a big strategic mistake.
But do you think they do want it to continue?
I hope so. I hope that there are some understandings for the first time after many years in Italy, France, and Germany. That's what I believe, but I'm not sure about it.
Help us understand your position in relation to Russia. How should Europe think about Russia? How should the United States think about Russia? What is the strategic vision for the West?
You were always, you were always, you were presenting yourself as a beacon of democracy. Russia was a beacon of evil, and that's it, you know, which is not true.
Which is not true. It's their nuances.
There are many gray nuances. It's not everything that is black and white. But put that aside what I was saying to everybody.
Broadly speaking, we are more democratic than Russia. Right.
Okay. I mean the gray nuances but there are different cultures. There are different traditions. There are different worlds. At the end Russia is not a part of European Union. At least you used to be a part of European Union but you were not satisfied and you left as you know and you are still fostering us to go there and we listen to you and we are on that path.
We would also like to rejoin the European Union. We will join.
We can be part of your project. Yeah, but it's late to remorse on something that you have already done.
