Hi Rob. So good to chat with you. So when we first reached out and we were chatting about your background going from you know an AI tech guru in the Silicon Valley and now you've switched to creating AI device for children. Please tell us how you got there because I'm dying to know your perspective as a dad and the impact on technology and children. And you know, when we first spoke, we're both big fans of the anxious generation. So, we're both in it. We're both concerned and not really knowing what to do. So, I want to have this conversation with you about how do we how do we create a healthy relationship with tech. So, tell us how did you go from AI guru Silicon Valley to where you are now?
Yeah. So I just previously as you mentioned I ran a company called LivePerson for 28 years. I invented when you chat on websites in 1997 and then it became a big conversational AI company and we powered all big brands contact center. So if you chat or messaged and it's a public company it's like 3,000 employees and multi-billion dollar market cap. But three years ago I decided to walk away from it and pursue something because I have three children now. They're all under the ages of 10, 10, seven, and one just turned five. A girl and two boys. And I was seeing this experience that we were having as a family with technology. And you know you talk about the anxious we talked about the anxious generation Jonathan Haidt's book and stuff and all the articles but when you have three kids in your life and you see basically a behavioral change when they're using devices and they're on YouTube and YouTube kids and when if you really dig in and that's what I started to do. I'm like I'm seeing my kids like have a different set of values. That's the way I kind of talk about it because there's a your kids are using like my kids are cursing or they're they're hitting each other and they're doing that and they're doing things beyond what normal kids do and they're picking a lot of this behavior up and through these interactions they're having with the device that we we allow them to, you know, we hand our device. We rent it to them, hand it to them for a little bit and then they become addicts to it. They're just addicted to it and we see they they like steal my iPhone. But there was one particular event I had with my middle son and it was two years ago and I could in it was like the middle of the night I was got up to go bathroom and I heard sounds downstairs and I went downstairs and he was on an iPad and he was just scrolling. It was 3:00 in the morning and he really had no concept of what he was doing and it really reminded me of I guess what you hear about people who are addicted to things like there wasn't a perception of time or space. There wasn't even an understanding of like what what he wasn't like engaged in some majorly amazing content about learning. He was just scrolling and I remember going like red flag. And then that kind of drove me to think about, you know, there's this huge need and could I build something based on my knowledge in AI and the resources I have and could I go after it? And that that's really where it started. That was a genesis of it.
Right? Because the the way I see it, Rob, we've got the research, it's clear. And actually, I just saw Jonathan Haidt say yesterday on LinkedIn that he says he does think differently now since he wrote the book. And one of the things he's realizing it's not just the damage mental healthwise, right? So we talk about the physical and emotional, but really it's the focus and attention. So like you said, your son was scrolling without really understanding. So he's not consuming content, right? It's like 3:00 in the morning. It's just that dopamine hit. So yeah, with that, you know, what was that turning point when you realized like here's an here's an issue? what what can I do? So, you're bridging that gap between the research and the how. Because as parents and educators, we're like, "Okay, great. The research and we see our kids and it's terrible and I want to I feel awful and there's so much guilt and shame as a parent, but we don't know what to do."
That's right. And and that was the thing I started to realize was that as much as I it this it's really weird cuz I've been in technology my whole life. Most of the time in technology, people either love something or don't like it or they don't use it. It's like a kind of binary. And I have never seen a technology that can be loved and hated at the same time. So I started to just when you end up as an entrepreneur, you start to just observe your own feelings. That's what it is. Like why do I feel a certain way? And and do other people feel this? So you start to have conversations. But I started to think like I'm okay with this. So are you like I use it. It's really practical for me to have this in my life and it makes my life easy and I emails and I'm I'm mobile because of it. But the day I hand the minute I hand it to my child, my emotional state is loser. I've lost. I've lost. And I know I'm hurting them. Which is really an interesting thing because as a parent, you do everything for your children not to be hurt. You don't want to hurt them physically, mentally. You know, if you have a normal relationship, you just think, I want to protect my children. But yet, you're willing to give them drugs. willing to hand this to them for a number of reasons as I started to evolve. Let's think about myself. One is I'm using it so they see my behavior and so it's hard to say like but I'm not a drug addict. Like I have to that's why I put it like it's really once again it's very weird. It's like if I was using heroin and I handed heroin to my kid. I'm a heroin addict and that's but I'm a person just tactically using this functionally in my life but I hand to them it's like I'm handing them heroin and that's the feeling we get. I'm hurting my child. I'm I'm making them an addict. I'm I'm exposing them to content that's not appropriate. So why do we do it? So why do we do it? You know, like that's why I started asking myself, what the hell? Why am I doing this? Why does my wife do this? We're not bad people. We love our children. It's because like most parents, it's kind of easy. It's easy to get a break at dinner when the kids are like running around or they're not focused or you know it's easy like I got to do something so let me hand this to them and I I get my break and I get to focus and that's what this has become. And so for most parents it's just kind of like I'll deal with the consequences and hopefully it's not that bad. But we know now it's bad like they they it can create ADHD stuff. It creates, you know, focus issues. But put the that aside and I think Jonathan Haidt talks about, you know, obviously suicides and and depression. I mean, he really talks about the mental thing. Put put all of that aside for a second. What I've seen and even now we have families using our device like it's about values, believe it or not. It's not about that stuff. And that's why the stuff that pains us is that my children are acting a certain way that's not aligned to the values of my family and some person who they don't know has decided they're going to do put their value system which is that get my get kids to be addicted and scrolling. That's that's the value system of a creator of content for children, you know, on these platforms. And that's our conflict. That is the real conflict. I have a set of values and I and they're not playing. Interesting enough, we've had now we had this whole Christian community come on the platform and it really got me thinking about even more defining the values of this community is just so anti-online because it's it's more defined around Christianity. I can define it around religious activities or norms in religion and that that's how deep this goes you know. So
Yeah, and I think too with the value speaking like you were given an example of a parent giving it to a child because it's easy. But I think also it's it's more ingrained than that in terms of you know like I I had those values. I didn't want my child on screen when they were little and then COVID came and she was in third grade and now all of a sudden it's everywhere and you're just trying to survive the day. But it's it's that it's a community. It's a society. So everywhere they go, everybody's houses, they now go to school. Every school has, it's like a one-to-one with laptops or iPads. So it is everywhere. And we've talked a lot about that here in our school district. We've had we had a book club with the anxious generation. And we spoke about what are we going to do? and and now we're in the debate of, you know, the yonder pouches and high schoolers only having it between classes, you know, and now the next step is like the the it's coming down the pipe like in New York and here in Massachusetts it's going to be a bill where there'll be no phones during the school day, you know, so it's it's a larger than us, right, as as parents. So we might have these values internally but goodness gracious how do we tackle you know our society our state the country the world you know it's overwhelming and as you say sometimes it's just like oh my gosh I'm doing the best I can and I always think about what's that rumor that Steve Jobs his children never he never used it yeah right you know I mean I wish we could be like that but you know we don't we live in the suburbs in Boston, you know, we don't live on a farm, so the children are seeing and hearing it everywhere. So, you know, that's why I'm so curious about Okay. What you did was you're not saying don't use technology. What you're talking about is is changing consumption to creation. Can you talk about that?
Yeah. And and I I really felt that AI is a break. It's it's it's definitely it's a revolution. It's not an evolution of the technology that we've all been involved with, which is really the web 2 internet, which is organizing the world's information. Now, it's about engaging with the computer in in a human-like fashion that a computer can talk to me and it and it can it has intelligence, right? So, it's a revolution. And when revolutions happen, that's where I feel like if you if you embrace it and harness it and focus it, you can make real change. So, I feel like it's a good break. Like, it's time. Can we power and create a device that would take the power of AI and put it in the hands of children safely and then you know create an alternative because unfortunately I mean it's maybe my capitalist mentality but I don't believe in regulation. I don't believe in like nonprofit groups trying to solve this problem because what you are facing is the largest companies in the world that are on the other side of that that have their hands in government that have their hands in everything and they have a lot more resources that all the parent groups and the mom groups that are out there trying to do good and even the government trying to do what they're trying to do. They have more resources than all of them combined. So fighting them I feel the best way is by tapping into the consumerism of people that I have an alternative now like they're this is our little kid device like there'll be an alternative and great I'll buy it and now I give my kid the alternative versus like I'm complaining about it or we're waiting for government to do like Australia they banned it. I'm telling you, I didn't dig in obviously, but I'm more and I haven't gone to Australia since the bill passed, but I'm just curious like if kids are getting it somewhere else, like are they really all just gave up on social media? Like I don't really know. And no one's talking about like what really happened. Like I'm curious. It could be no one's touches it, but I don't think this is an opportunity now to give them give everyone in the world alternatives that are safe and healthy and can align to the values of family and we're done. you know, that's the goal. So, although it's not that easy because we launched and now I've got 400 families and I can give you the feedback, it's really interesting now to see it's very fascinating, you know, now that we're in the wild where we're out there. So,
Yeah. Well, I'll give you an example. So, my husband's Australian and we were there at Christmas and so soon as we landed, my daughter logged into what is she Snapchat because she's got, you know, a group with her swim friends, whatever. So, as soon as she logged into a Snapchat, it it cancelled her. Oh, wow. And then she sort of went, "Oh, I think she'd maybe heard about Australians rules. I don't really know." Or it just popped up and then it said, "Take a picture of yourself and she did." And it well, it said we were too young and so it cancelled her. Well, then she was at a friend's a family friend's house and they the the little girl just showed her you have to put makeup on, take a picture again, and and you're you get through. So to your point, like it all sounds good on the outside, but the the young kids and the older kids are getting it anyway, you know. Um but you know what? If it even if it makes a difference for a fraction of the
Yeah, I'm not against [laughter] you're not going to find I don't think you're going to find that kind of adoption in the US. I don't think the government has the will to want to mess with big tech, you know.
Yeah. All right. So let's let's talk about that. You know, you were talking about the the consumption versus the creation. So, tell us how you came to that like that you're using this device. I have it in a box here.
Oh, yeah. You got a box. Yeah, we Yeah. Um, how did you come up with this idea of storytelling specifically? tell us about the the story part of So the so the device there there's a couple of different there's like a creator there's three areas and the middle area there's a creator area where kids can create images and music and stories and buddies and then there's like little buddies on the bottom that you can chat with you can see down there and then there's a whole story area and there's education and tutors and stuff like that the stories is really interesting though I I like we started a test without even having a just a software with, you know, local kids, my kids, and they loved when they could talk to characters. This concept of like a character lives within this story framework and I could ask them questions about the story and I could have this interaction with them and they could talk to their favorite characters that are in stories, whether it's Harry Potter or whatever. it you could see they really enjoyed the engagement and the with the character. So that's kind of where we started. Then I started to think about like we every night if you think about a parent child behavior if you have young kids you're doing bedtime stories. You're like reading with them at night and it's a hassle like if you have three kids like my wife and I kind of tag team you know we're going around and I I try to do everyone every night at least read one book with everybody. But what I found was like if I could create a story with my children like a unique story and we we create the characters or we're in the story it was cool and we could show images and but it's our story and I my four-year-old he's now five as of last week like when we started doing this even as a four-year-old like we're laughing together and I remember that sense of like I don't laugh when I'm using the device with my kids. I feel sorry for us. But I was like laughing and we're enjoying it and I just remember like we're creating these images and and creating these stories and characters and it's always, you know, Lorenzo, it's my young son and daddy are going to Mars and there's always a squid cuz he likes squids and and then it makes the imagery and I was thinking, wow, like a four-year-old out of their crazy imagination because they have wonderful imaginations were able to manifest that into art, into a story, into a narrative structure without having to have all those skills. skills and I'm like that's the power of AI. Like that's the power like it can make us the best creators. Even a four-year-old can create a wonderful story,
Right? And you're speaking for our listeners before Rob was showing his his actual kid.io a device. So if you catch this video on YouTube, you can actually see him holding it up or you can check his website. But if you're listening that's what's that's what he's sharing. You're speaking our language here at Kids Yoga Stories, right? So we're we're educators and parents and therapists around the world who are passionate about integrating yoga and mindfulness and meditation even into our homes, our clinics, our classrooms in meaningful ways that are relevant and a lot of that comes through story. So I'm sort of picturing imagine if you could speak to this device and and and we can do that by chat for sure, right? So we all, you know, we have chat and we can be we have a school yoga sidekick chat that we have through through our school yoga program. So we can be creating stories that way. But with your device, what you're offering is something that's more like the children can put it in their hand. They can it can travel with them. Then they can be interacting. They can have their own characters. So it's more of a a bring alive situation than being on your phone on chat GBT, you know. So yeah, that's what so you're speaking our language with that.
Yeah. And the and the big part is that we we are we're COPPA certified which is this very high certification from the FTC federal trade communications in the government which is we have to you have to be able to show that you cannot harm a child with content. They can't create content themselves to harm themselves or others. and you can't take their data and do things with it like target them and and that's we're like one of the only few devices out there right now and there was like a lot of like devices from China that were dumped into the market like a teddy bear and they put a chat GPT wrapper on it and these teddy bears were saying horrible things because wrapping putting a wrapper on a chat GPT endpoint and letting your children talk to it is a recipe for disaster. Our models, our devices made for for four to 12 year olds. ChatGPT is made for the world and then people are trying to just kind of fit it to do something for kids. It's not possible. That's what we see with us. It's like you can't do anything with these characters. Even when you talk to the characters, if you if you say like, "I was bullied. I can show you I got bullied by my best friend." It'll land you to your parents. It doesn't try to like, hey, let's talk about it for an hour and figure it out. Like it's like you should talk to your parents or if it's your parents that are doing something not great to you, go to talk to someone at school. So we have all the offramps and the guard rails so we can make sure children are not exposed to, you know, something bad. The the really interesting thing I learned though, it's like we learn like it's crazy like kids love to talk to characters. They love to like the the number one use by 100x like a 100x of usage on the platform is characters. They want to talk to characters. Then what they want to do with characters is have like is they want like them to be supportive. They want them to create things and do games with them. They want to create and then they want to do storytelling like the the three big lane storytelling like activities and then just having this like cool relationship with a character. They feel supported. You know I remember I've been interviewing parents and children and I tell the I asked the girl like what do you like? This one girl she was seven years old and she was with her mom. I love this character. She started talking about the character. Well, what do you talk about? She goes, well, I I talk about things I don't I don't want to talk to mommy about. And and I was like, okay, now mommy has a mobile app that is monitoring and if the child does say something that's not right, the the parent will get flagged. So So we have the safeguards of if a child does talk to a character and says, "I want to hurt myself or it'll flag the parent." But anyway, apparently she was like, "Yeah, she likes to have this conversation." So, it's it was cool, you know.
So, taking all that, Rob, if you know, people are going to go away and they're going to look at this look up your website and make that choice themselves. But in the interim, you know, if they're not interested in the device, what can you share about what you've learned about this healthy relationship between children and technology that is, you know, can be used in everything that we do. And this is like this is my number one advice. I was I was on another show a couple days ago similar question about like what would you give parents advice around tech? And I and I would say this like there are people who returned our product who got it as a gift. Like there's three people particularly I don't know who they are but they returned and they wrote notes like no tech in my house. And I felt like you didn't give it a shot. Like your kid could have made an image in art or music. we can make music by talking.
