Good evening Pierre Gattaz, former head of the MEDEF, entrepreneur, author of the book 'Win More: 30 Concrete Measures to Improve Purchasing Power.' We wanted to hear your thoughts first on the very grave words from Emmanuel Macron tonight regarding the degradation of the geopolitical situation, and more specifically on the Russian threat. Let's listen to the President.
The Russian hybrid threat against Europeans and France has intensified. The nature of Russian aggression and its threats in Europe is changing. I have asked the government to prepare a plan to protect our critical infrastructure and the most sensitive sites of our industrial and technological defense base against drone and cyber attacks. The day we are physically attacked, we won't be warned. I prefer to tell you, it won't work like that. What happened in Germany at Lesich will not go unanswered, and I think it would be a mistake on Russia's part to continue acting towards Europeans in this way. No one is safe. So, faced with this, we are acting.
The intensification of the Russian threat, the war in Ukraine, the crisis in the Middle East. Are you, Pierre Gattaz, as a business leader, worried?
Well, I am worried but vigilant, and I especially don't want to fall into fear. We must not be afraid. Fear, like anger, is an extremely bad advisor. On the other hand, we must face the threats head-on; they exist. Cybersecurity, drones, everything we see that are threats to the French state, but also to our businesses and sometimes to our households. So yes, we are in a very difficult world today, but I would turn this into an opportunity. Every threat, you know, the word 'crisis' in Chinese is 'danger opportunity.' Opportunity to do what? Well, to rebuild a technological innovation, services, and software sector where we are very strong in France, to develop SMEs, and startups around security, while of course taking short-term measures to protect ourselves. You see, these are threats like Putin, the war. Well, these are tremendous opportunities to rebuild a defense sector.
Precisely, Mr. Gattaz, in terms of defense, we often pay lip service, it must be said. Emmanuel Macron, of course, talks about raising our posture, being vigilant about our infrastructure given the threat. What would it imply to move to a war economy for you?
Well, it's not really a war economy. I am more in favor of a New Deal, think of Roosevelt. Remember, it was in 1933, he had the three Rs: Relief, Recovery, and Reform. And in fact, we are exactly at that moment in France. That is to say, we must give purchasing power to people, it's fundamental, and above all give them hope that the social ladder will work again. People must think they won't stay on minimum wage their whole lives. For me, that's essential. Otherwise, you keep people extremely frustrated, and it's normal. Second thing is reforms. We must do reforms. We know the public sector is very, very poorly managed. Well, Borloo talks about it often, everyone talks about it, and we must manage this public sector. We must make savings. There are plenty of ideas. I've developed many in my book 'Win More.' And then everything that is recovery. Recovery is growth. That is absolutely fundamental because even if you make savings and have no growth, it won't work. So I would say it's not a war economy, it's an economy where we transform threats. Today, the planet, water, health, military, attacks, cybersecurity, quantum, AI, these are threats, but you transform them by saying we won't suffer, we will build with innovation, research, the engineers we have, the talent we have, professional training, manual trades.
Except that all this will take time. It's something that is built over the long term. What is the threat that weighs on you as an entrepreneur? The Russian threat, for example, how could it materialize for you?
I think France, everyone is anxious, it's a crisis, it can recover very, very quickly. I would like to give a signal of hope to the French and to the listeners if we take measures of confidence. You see, that's the number one problem, that there are parties that want to tax us all day long. So entrepreneurs really have their heads in the bag, they're going to tax us again, fleece us, etc. It's very, very bad. So we must project a positive vision through these sectors that will allow development for 50 years. It can develop in a few years, and in the short term, we must do quick wins. Quick wins are what we do in our companies. That is to say, when we have problems, I did it at Radiall recently to compensate employees with low incomes relative to the price of gasoline. These are quick win elements, rapid solutions that can be to say, well, on gasoline, I am quite agree. I think we must monitor, listen because these people who need their car and can no longer manage, well, we must help them.
And precisely, what type of aid, do you agree with the government's logic of saying we are doing temporary and targeted aid, there will be no generalized aid, no VAT reduction, no price caps?
Well, I think it's a good start, looking at fishermen, liberal professions, liberal nurses who travel, etc. These are professions that suffer a lot, and I think we must listen to them. After, if you want, it's true that I looked at how much a 20-cent tax reduction on gasoline would cost, which would allow saving 10 euros on a full tank, which is enormous. Well, it would cost 2 billion per quarter, that is to say 8 to 10 billion per year. We don't have them. How do we get 8 to 10 billion per year? Well, we either make savings very quickly, and there are plenty of savings to make. There are plenty of books coming out right now. Mine with my friends, we made this book 'Win More.' I have 30 types of reforms, solutions, or some that wouldn't be very popular, working much longer, working until 67. So, excuse me, but there's one I often test, it's the 39-hour work week paid for 40, which would allow people because today people work 39 hours but they have 20 RTT days per year. They want to earn a bit more money, guys. And the monetization of RTT is popular but it's often complicated in SMEs, very often, whereas we must simplify all that. We must say instead of having 22 days of RTT, you work.
On fuel, you, Mr. Gattaz, when you were at the... pardon, I had a small idea on fuel which is an idea that would be... we have 180 billion, the state has 180 billion in stakes in companies, in Orange, in Renault, in Aéroports de Paris, in Veolia, in Engie, and I...
And these are stakes that could be sold quickly. Well, they are family jewels, but it's one shot, it's cash. But if you want, relative to a crisis that can escalate into hard social conflict with all the tensions we have, Putin, cyber attacks, the campaign, the novelty of the campaign, well you say we won't add to that. And I think to myself, ultimately, for one-off things, it's one shot, shouldn't we... well there's 10 billion. Well 10 billion, we sell 10 billion in stakes. It's money that comes back to the state thanks to these public companies.
Because Pierre Gattaz, it's great to have a project and there must be one on the industry of the future, the world of tomorrow. But there, it's obviously... it's simply what we forget a little bit in what we are saying around the table, is that on January 1st, 2019, before having earned 1 euro or spent 1 euro, we will already have 100 billion.
2029, that's not what I said. No, 2019.
I was younger. No, but in 2029 we will have 100 billion on January 1st in interest on the debt to repay, and that is lost money that will have to be paid.
That is fundamental what you are saying there. That's why, if you want, I think managing a crisis in a company, how do you do it? You motivate everyone who can generate revenue, salespeople, merchants, etc. You don't whip them, you don't martyr them. Us in France, there are certain parties that want to make us disappear. Well, already it doesn't work like that. So confidence. You talk about going to... notably... second thing, if you want, we make savings, that is to say a crisis, it's continuing to motivate those who can generate revenue, and secondly, above all, making savings. The savings, you all know, there are 130 billion to recover at minimum, maybe 200 billion. Where do we find them? You don't replace one civil servant out of two, you reduce the territorial administration, you remove half of the state agencies. That's been said for 50 years. No but wait, yes but wait, it takes courage, but I'm sorry, the Canadians did it in '95 with Mr. Chrétien, the Italians, the Germans did it with... everything was done in the world. Why us, the French? So there, we are at the end of the rope, the debt is completely crazy. We have 5,000 euros per second of debt increasing, it's crazy. So what do we do? Well, we do a New Deal. We propose to all the French to say, listen, we are going to have growth, we motivate everyone, but on the other hand, we will have to make savings and some remunerated efforts.
These proposals you make, how to make savings? Do you also fear social movements that are organizing? We will talk about it after a very short break. Our guest is still Pierre Gattaz, former head of the MEDEF. We will come back to fuel prices which are exploding, inflation which could reach a peak of 3% by the end of the year. And in this tense climate, a government that announces it will have to make efforts, and not small ones. An effort of 54 billion euros by 2027 with a message everyone will have to pay up, retirees, civil servants. We still have the impression that bosses are rather spared in the government's project. They are going to reduce the corporate tax surcharge to 5 billion against 8 this year. Are you relieved anyway of...?
I'm not completely relieved because first, it's the beginning of a long budgetary series that can show surprises, terrible debates. No, what I believe, if you want, is that any country in the world that I know that wanted to recover did it with companies, with bosses, and with employees. We always forget the employees behind a boss. I say it's a human community. So every time we want to tax the engine of wealth creation, growth, social cohesion, training that are companies, it's the family jewel. I would say it's the golden goose, the company. Well, every time we attack the company, it's less growth, etc. So you saw there is a red line for the government, no tax increase. And that's already very good. After, if you want, we talk about 54 billion in this budget. What I understood is that 40 billion are a freeze of state spending. Well, and there are 14 billion in efforts. So already, and then we don't touch the social model at all because if you want, you must know that in the debt that increases every second, well we have retirement, we have social security, we have a social model that is more under control. So we also propose solutions. It's not to say we're going to throw it in the trash because it's formidable but it must be much better optimized, managed.
So indeed, there are two parts, the PLF and the PLFSS. There, we started with the PLF. Very good. The state must manage everything it can, make savings, and I think there are interesting things there. No tax increases, that's incredibly wise. You know, do you really believe in that?
