Food is fabulous. It's a beautiful magnet. And it can mean so many things, can't it? It can be...
Like what? Well, food can be therapy. You know, if someone dies and you're in mourning, you can absolutely create an environment where you're cooking something which can still be full of love, and it can be therapy. You can cook for romance. You can cook because you need to be electrified and you need to feel alive. Or you might want to cook something that makes you feel sluggish and just curl up and have a cuddle.
Cooking for people. Because to satisfy is fine. Whether it's your family or your friends or something, there's nothing better. It's just a lovely thing to do for people.
A few weeks ago, just hours before the opening of Jamie's Italian in Leicester Square, Jamie Oliver came to see me in the River Cafe to talk about our new podcast book, Table for The River Cafe. We were joined by friends around the table, Gary Lineker, footballer, presenter, and podcaster, and Seth Doane, foreign correspondent for CBS News, who's based in Rome. Together we spoke about restaurants, podcasts, Italian food, cooking for family, writing cookbooks, and navigating the world around us. We began with Jamie and I flicking through the chapters of the book, most of all his chapter, remembering his early days at the River Cafe when we worked together. I was looking at the photographs here, and I looked at all these photographs of people, and there's a lot of affection going on. And then I looked at the one of you and me, and I looked at that and I thought, you know, that says a lot, doesn't it? I just literally have you in my...
And then one. So, it's here, is it? At the end. If you look at this one, I think it's here. And there, see?
The pictures that I thought was so great was one of us in love with each other, hugging. And how old were you in that picture, Jamie?
I came to work for you at 21. 20. Look at you. Yeah, baby. So, how many years ago was that? 30 years ago. Okay, so there you go. And then I was looking at the... Can you believe that? 30 years.
Yeah, I can. Because we're going to be 40. I know. So, you have become 10 years. We're going to talk about that because it's a long time. So, what we did with this book is to say we drafted into chapters because with all the people how do you kind of group it? We thought food is family. And so we have families, you know, the McCartneys and we have the Beckhams and we have food is tradition, food is discovery. And then food is art, so these are the artists. Food is politics and food is food, which are the chefs.
Your guests are amazing. Look at this. If I was going to put you in a chapter, I don't know where I'd put you because I thought you are family, right? You are tradition because as you said we've been together for a while. You definitely are discovery. You definitely are art. I would say you are a work of art. And then political, yes, food is politics because you are. And then food is food. Yeah. So, there you go. You could have been in any single chapter, right?
Oh, thank you. And so this was the food chapter that we put you in in the end.
Thank you. Well, next to Martha. Next to Martha. And I was looking at what this chapter and I was looking what we talked about thinking what we talked about. And I was thinking what we should really do is what I'd like to do is talk about what you're doing now, you know, what is your, you know, the project you're working on now that's so exciting. Well, today I'm opening a restaurant.
Yeah. Like literally last night was my first soft launch. So, can you imagine that Jamie's actually here? Yeah, but that's because you're my Ruthie Rodgers and I say no. Yeah, no, of course you can't. I say no. No.
Tell us about the restaurant. What's it?
As you know, about 20 years ago I started Jamie's Italian and it was supposed to be a really beautiful mid-market offer into fresh pasta and all the things that we love. It was incredibly successful for eight years. It was like a dream come true. And then for two years it fell apart and I lost them all. And it was so... So I had the best of my life literally and then I had the worst. So in a really nice philosophical positive way I feel like a fully rounded restaurateur now. Because I've had it and I've lost it. But really I also think that in life the concept of second chances and comebacks and the attitude in a world that can be quite tricky and dark at times in the world we live in or personally, I think dusting yourself down and going again and I don't know you would call it being relentless is important. Yeah. So this is my second chance.
It's relentless and resilience. Yeah. And empathy, you know, those I think you can teach somebody... I would say resilience is right up there.
Yeah. But with the resilience you have to have a kind of empathy, too. Totally. So that's... So it's quite a big deal, really.
So go back to that. What helped you kind of get...
Well, I think like when you've... When I lost them all, you obviously spend quite a long time doing an autopsy in why, what happened, what went wrong. And without trying to massage my own self or ego, we got most of it right. We got the important bits right and we got the hard bits right. The culture, the feeling, keeping...
Such good food. Yeah, and keeping the staff and taking a pot washer and training them to be senior chefs. But what we got wrong was the business side really, which is kind of, you know, it was the thing that... People always said I was a businessman, but I really wasn't. So this time round keeping the locations really small, making sure I do all the grown-up stuff properly.
And then yeah, like I did a pre-team briefing yesterday, like 70 people. And I'm... They've had all the kind of training and the tasting and the show and the tell and the role play. But then I was trying to get into the feeling. And what was that? And you were there, by the way. You were there with me. But the feeling is a hard one to teach. So I was talking about trying to find their words for mojo. Like getting your confidence. Like you and Rose were always so good at having these waiters and waitresses that were so individual. And yeah, they had to do it the River Cafe way, but you didn't want robots. You wanted them to be individual. So finding that confidence and having that confidence with a customer to sort of scan them and sort of see what mood they're in, you know, what vibe are they into? Like are they into they want to get going quick or do they want to kind of have an antipasti, a pasta, and share a secondi? You know, so that's the stage that we're in. And of course they all think I'm mad. You know, I bet they don't.
Well, I think they think I'm very enthusiastic. But when because they're so young, getting them to tune into like heart and soul and energy and vibe and feeling is... it sounds a bit hippy, but we both know that it's a very important... it's the secret ingredient, isn't it? Making people who work for you feel that is actually... I hate to say it's good for business, too. Because if they're happy, they're going to be kind to the customer. If they feel there's a... And it's not huggy kissy that what it's also knowing that there's a structure, knowing there's a system, knowing there's a protocol, knowing all that.
But it's all those things that give them the confidence, isn't it? Some confidence and then they can relax.
I was on the pass once with Rose and my wife Jules was a waitress. That's how you met, right?
I didn't meet here, but like we were kind of... that was the time when we kind of got together. And when she's concentrating, she always puts her foot up like a pelican. Yeah. And it's like in a restaurant, really? And she goes, 'Look at your girlfriend.' And Rose was there. I mean, Jules was there with her foot as a pelican and she was struggling to get the cork out of a bottle of Prosecco. So, she gave it to the male customer and said, 'Can you do it?' And I went, 'I'm so sorry.' She goes, 'I love it.' But of course, somehow I talked about Emily Mortimer who said she always likes to say that she was the worst waitress in the restaurant we ever had. Yeah. And then she always tells the story that she brought two people. One had lamb, one had fish. And the person who had the fish said, 'I'd like some lemon.' So, she took the lemon off the lamb and said, 'You don't need that.' And gave it to the fish person. But those are the characters. Those are the people that... As long as it's done with that kindness.
Yeah. I would say that you can teach somebody to be a really good waitress, you know, to clear the plates, to hold the plates, to pour the wine. But it's harder to teach somebody to have kindness. You know, if they don't have it. And that's what I think we do. Yeah. 100%. Well, whenever I come here, it feels like coming home and I'm sure it's the same for all your customers.
Well, well, we know. Well, you're a big difference in that, you know, I told you that quite often I'm brought here by a taxi cab driver and they say to me as we're pulling up, they say, 'Do you know that Jamie Oliver worked here?' I go, 'Yeah, that's really interesting.' And then one of them said, 'Do you know this is Jamie Oliver's restaurant?' And I didn't contradict him because I thought, 'Yeah, actually it is Jamie Oliver's restaurant.' Aw. So, there's a whole history there.
Bless you for that. Tell me more about the new restaurant. So, what...
Well, as you know, it's a pretty rough time out there in the hospitality and it's certainly in mid-market it's a mess. So, I think you'd be quite...
You think that's true? Why?
I think that post-COVID, post-Brexit, we lost a lot of our amazing front of house staff that were Portuguese and Spanish and Italian and a proportion of them went home. I think that obviously financially people are a bit struggling at the moment which is mid-market. But at the same time when I opened Jamie's Italian 20 years ago that was the last recession and we were like just giving that up to, you know, having optimism and beautiful feelings and delicious food when it's bad is quite a good time. So unless I'm wrong last time I did it it worked and it's interesting because the industry actually are so supportive they really want me to sort of get back in mid-market and get that energy going. But I think you'd be really proud of me like that the... right now... bless... but really nice ingredients like the pasta is being made like twice a day every day it's really simple food. We were doing a carbonara but it's the classic Roman way. You know.
I mean I try to go a couple of times a year if I'm lucky and if I'm really lucky I might be in the mountains. You know, I love it. I mean I started going to Italy with you. So good, best trips of my life.
So let's just tell everyone listening that this is when Rose and I started the River Cafe and it was very very first year we had the idea that we would take ourselves because it really was just ourselves and a few, you know, one other person whoever was here, Aussie who's doing the wine, and we would go to the source, we'd go to the people who make the olive oil, produce the olive oil and the wine and stay with them and eat with them. And that really is a tradition that we've done when we were five people working here right now and we're 130 people.
Well, you were the only people doing that and what's beautiful now is if you look at the family tree of the River Cafe, so many of your chefs that have gone off to do amazing things replicate what you did and no one did it before you. But I mean the idea of your boss taking you on what looks like a holiday...
I know, it's hard work. 3-4 days to eat professionally three or four times a day, which is actually... No one feels sorry for you, but it's quite hard work. But I think it's interesting because like you can train somebody but until they've been there and seen them and been in that area or up a mountain or seen the nonnas making this or seen the charcuterie camp that came from that village, that's what changes them. And it's that change I think that gives you your spark and your mojo.
Well, when I think about, you know, your children or my children, how exposed they are. But it's about exposure. Exposure to, you know, a museum. It's exposure to music. It's exposure to social values. And, you know, that we in a way taking them to people to Italy who may really be good cooks, but they haven't been exposed to what it's like to sit down at an Italian table and eat something that was from the kitchen by, as you say, one of the members of the family. Or to be exposed to, you know, I was exposed to suddenly how olive oil is made. And how and when they come back from the trip and they pour olive oil over a piece of lamb or turbot or piece of bread, they do it in a different way because they've seen the olives come from the tree. They've seen people press the olives. They've seen that...
Yeah, but that was such a gift though. I mean, it's obviously since it was sensible to help the River Cafe amplify what you and Rose were trying to do, but also for every cook that went on those buses around the mountains of Tuscany, like it changed us forever. And we had such fun. Oh, do you remember? I mean, I remember so many things, but I remember...
A bit wild, weren't they?
Yeah, I mean, they were much more straight.
Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, we had a lot of fun, but you know, like just like I remember you guys were the first people who ever bring cavolo nero to Britain. Yeah. And then I remember Sainsbury's started to stock it. And they're like, 'What is this?' And you know, that sauce that you make that you'd have at...
We brought back the seeds and we gave them to a farmer down...
It was in Somerset or something.
We were in Somerset. And it...
What are you saying? I could have sworn it was some Italian growing off the M25 that had all your seeds.
We put them in. Yeah. Right. I think down in... Yeah, something new. But you know, and then as he says, you know, Sainsbury's... If he hadn't brought it, somebody else would have because that is also something that connection. That's why Brexit was such a tragedy, I think, because the connection between Europe and us got smaller and smaller. Yeah. And now that a truck could leave the Milan market and be here the next day, that, you know, mozzarella...
More complicated now. You see? Are you finding that...
Yeah, 100% everything. Everything's just harder. Everything's just harder and everything's just more painful and whether that's people or whether that's our kids being able to travel around like infinitely to learn and be inspired or whether it's produce. I'm trying to get a shipment of something special in. So, yeah, I mean, it's hard. You just got to crack on there, haven't you? I mean, it's sort of survival of the fittest, so you just keep going. But look, it's the...
So lucky. We have the best job in the world, don't you think? I think we do. No, I... you know, I walk... I would go into the kitchen and you see what we're cooking and we, you know, walk through the restaurant, see a table that might be having a hard time and they seem happier or you see a waiter who broke up with her boyfriend the day before, but somehow is being consoled by the other people. And I just think to be surrounded by people who are really trying to... Feeding people is a privilege, isn't it?
Yeah. How are the kids? How are the kids doing? My kids are... They're amazing, actually. One's 23, she's a teacher. The 22-year-old is a nurse. And then the other three are still in school. Yeah. And they're all different and wonderful and wild and they keep me on my toes. And Jules is an amazing mom. So, I've been very blessed. And they... Yeah, it's nice seeing the kids having young ladies as my daughters is quite unbelievable. Yeah.
Well, you kind of get there's a bit of a mic drop moment at 50 at 13, isn't it? They're sort of not interested in you for about 5 years, maybe 6, possibly 7.
