So, you know, look, he's been a friend and he is somebody that I admire. He's somebody I look up to. And here's a picture. I'm going to make you laugh. I host a wine party in Davos every year. And of course, Alistair was supposed to show up. There's your prime minister looking for Alistair Campbell. So, he's a bit of a like the rest of us. See? So, not only am I a good name dropper, David, but I can bring receipts, you know? I mean, I could give you all the things. He announced today that he was planning to replace Canadian potash with Belarusian potash for American firms. There you go. You know, so that's right on Putin's checklist. Of course, that's not going to happen because a lot of people will block that. Thank God. But that's the stuff that he does. You know what I mean? He's a dick. You allowed to say that on your podcast, but that's what he is.
Oh, yeah. No, we're fully slur friendly.
And by the way, I just want to tell you as an American who loves Canada, I am completely embarrassed by this. And I say to my fellow North American friends that I'm hoping and praying that we can get through this and get rid of him and onto something that's better for both sides of that border. But that's about as honest as I could be about something, you know. I feel I paid the price for working for him. And we're nine years since my firing. I understand those motivations, by the way. And I'm a human. You know, here's the thing I would tell you. I was watching Matt Damon tie himself to the mast over the summer in the movie The Odyssey while his fellow sailors were jumping into the Charybdis. They were jumping into the whirlpool and they were being seduced by the mermaids. And as I was watching that, I was saying, 'My god, I'm one of the sailors.' I jumped into the goddamn pool and I read that book four times, David, and I didn't learn from it. I had to jump into this whirlpool myself. And so I just tell people, you know, we're human beings. We can make mistakes, but at least I was man enough to admit it.
Let's talk about your book.
Well, thank you. Thank you for reading it.
Oh, it was a pleasure to read it, and I would encourage everybody to read it.
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Greetings you curiouser and curiouser hurly burlites. Since the time we first reached out to him, we've been waiting to get this week's guest on the pod for about 40 days, which works out to roughly four Scaramuccis. Who doesn't know Anthony Scaramucci? You probably remember he was Trump's White House communications director back in 2017 for either 10 or 11 days depending on who's counting. Hence the brief increment of time now known as a Scaramucci. But this man is far more than an entry in the Urban Dictionary. He's a thought leader, pundit, podcaster, entrepreneur, and financier. The founder of SkyBridge Capital and the SkyBridge Bitcoin Fund with multi-billion dollars in assets under management. We had a great conversation today about a number of things that are highly relevant to the conversations we're all having all the time. He and I talked about Mark Carney whom he knows well having worked with him both at Goldman Sachs and on the post-financial crisis international financial mechanisms and he's got some interesting insights into our prime minister. We talked an awful lot about Donald Trump. Mr. Dr. Scaramucci has a book out called All the Wrong Moves about the three crises that he believes led to Donald Trump. And I believe on this podcast we had a conversation about one of the things that will be the thing that leads to the next thing which is Donald Trump. We don't know where it's leading us, but this Donald Trump period has changed us, our country, our world, I believe, irrevocably. And Scaramucci has more insight into that than most people. So, join us for a pretty brisk, fun, and fascinating conversation about the implications of Donald Trump. All right, Anthony Scaramucci, thank you for joining the Hurly Burly. How are you today?
David, I'm great. Thanks for your interest in the book, and I appreciate you bringing me on. Thank you.
It's my pleasure. Where do we find you today?
So, I'm in my home after a 10-day odyssey through the United Kingdom. I did seven stops in seven different cities. And now I'm back home and then tomorrow I start the launch of All the Wrong Moves. This is the North American cover. And I start that tomorrow. So, this is a great day for me because you're catching me on the eve of that.
What were you doing in the UK?
So, I visited, I was in London. I spoke at the Lyceum Theatre and then I went to Brighton, Bristol, Bath, Manchester. I sort of, you know, traipsed the whole country basically, in order to sell and market the book. And, you know, I mean, I think we sold about 9,000 books last week. So, people are quite happy.
What are they interested in? What do they ask you about? What do they, when they think about Trump and the United States over there? What do they think about?
Well, I mean, listen, I mean, very, I'm just saying this objectively. Trump has a very low approval rating in the United Kingdom. I think he's a net negative 34 in the United Kingdom. He's probably, you know, he's probably the least popular president in modern presidential history in the United Kingdom. So I think what they want to talk about because generally I'm going to make a general statement, the UK citizens generally love America and American citizens generally love the UK. Moreover, I would say the same thing about Americans and Canadians. If you just look at the interaction in Buffalo between the Americans on each side of the lake, you know, there's a love affair there. And so this antagonism from Donald Trump, I guess the big question is, how long is that going to last for? And how much damage is he doing to our friendships? And is anything potentially irreparable? And I guess the longer things go on like this, I guess the longer case can be made that there's less time for reparation. But I'm, you know, I'm an optimist. I sort of feel like we'll normalize these things after Donald Trump leaves the stage. But that's the central thing people ask.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll loop around to that eventually, too. But I want to learn a little bit more about you. You grew up in Long Island in the 1970s. Is that right?
Yeah. I'm born in '64. I got to first grade in 1971.
Yeah. Are you a hockey fan?
I am. I'm a lifelong New York Islanders fan and so I did live through the glory era of them winning the four Stanley Cups.
Bryan Trottier, Billy Smith,
There you go. Denis Potvin, I don't remember all these guys. But they were Long Island idols. Mike Bossy who unfortunately passed away. I don't remember Mike, but they were Long Island legends.
Maybe the best pure scorer ever.
Yeah. I mean, you know, I have Matt Martin lives down the block from me. I don't know if you remember Matt. He played for the Islanders, you know. And so Matt Martin is an awesome guy. And he married Boomer Esiason's daughter who's a friend of mine here in the town of Manhasset. So yeah, I've been a lifelong Islanders fan, which makes me a fellow Canadian in some ways because I love all those Canadians. And by the way, I should just mention this. My first job is I was staffed on the Cadillac Fairview shopping mall sale by Goldman Sachs and so I lived in the Four Seasons in Toronto for six months and I was working out of Eaton Center. Okay. In the office building there. And I traveled the entire country visiting shopping malls. I have been to places like Regina, Saskatchewan.
That's my home. So be careful. Just be careful. That's
I think I look I loved it there. Do you remember the shopping mall there? There was only one
Cornwall Centre was owned by Cadillac Fairview. Yeah. And I probably spent two weeks in Cornwall Centre. This is really at the advent of spreadsheets and software. This way back in the early 90s building the rent roll and doing a sensitivity analysis for potential buyers. So Cornwall Centre. And it's one other thing.
Did you ever have a pizza when you were in Regina?
That I don't remember. I do remember it being wicked cold and it was like only like late, it was like this time of the year. It was like late September and it was wicked cold up there. You remember that? You know it's like man these, that's why I always tell my fellow Americans don't pick a fight with people who live in cold weather. They can outlast you. Okay.
Look at that. What was your home like growing up? Was it political?
Yeah. I would say my home wasn't overly political. My father's union was controlled by the Republican party. So he was an adherent to the Republican party. His attitude was they were helping him with his wages. So whatever they were doing, if they wanted his support, he was doing, you know, and you know unions at that time were quite strong in America. And it's unique because most unions, frankly, adhered to the Democratic party, but there were probably three counties in the state of New York where the Republicans had a stronghold in the unions. And my dad's union was one of those. And so he voted alongside of the lines of whatever they recommended. And so when I registered to vote, which also came with a draft registration at the age of 18, I registered as a Republican because that's what my dad wanted.
Yeah. It's a good question. So, yes. In fact, it's funny because I got that question a lot in the UK. And so, you probably don't want to hear all of this, but I'm going to tell it to you anyway. When I had gotten into Tufts, it's a private school and it was $24,000 of tuition. My dad was only making about $30,000 at the time. This is way back in 1982. And his union and the Republican chairman of the Nassau County Republicans got me a union card and gave me the opportunity to work on the stone dock in my hometown for $16 an hour, which was a ton of money back then because minimum wage was like three grand, which is probably what I was worth. I was getting five times minimum wage and I had overtime and I had time and a half, which helped me pay my tuition. So, I said to people in the UK, and I don't know if you have a hockey team, but if you're an Islanders fan, it's very hard to switch to being a Rangers fan. And if you're a Winnipeg fan, it's probably hard to switch to being a Canadiens fan. And so, for me, I'm a lifelong Republican. I don't like the Republican party the way it's configured right now. I actually think I'm a Republican which represents some moderation and centrism and some right-leaning things on business and some left-leaning things socially. I don't think the current Republican party reflects that and I'm hoping to be part of the solution when Donald Trump leaves the stage where there'll hopefully be an intellectual civil war for the blood and guts of that party. So yes, I'm still a Republican, but I will tell you right now I want MAGA smashed and so I supported the Democrats because I think MAGA is representing an existential crisis to the country, the world, Canada and that party. So, I do want that smashed and I think that's in the best interest of everybody.
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You know our prime minister?
I do very well, actually.
Well, we started at Goldman Sachs together 30 plus years ago. He was an investment banker at the same time.
Did you join the company at the same time?
A couple years off, but you know, close enough where we were contemporaries at the firm. I then got to know him better when he was the chairman of the Bank of England. We were at the economic forums together, particularly the World Economic Forum, where we worked on a couple things together.
What were you doing there?
You know, I was one of the delegates from New York. I had a really good relationship with a gentleman by the name of Michael Dell, the computer entrepreneur. Who was one of the board members of the forum and so I got on the forum's financial services category board. Mark Carney was actually the chairman of that as the Bank of England and so we developed a pretty good relationship there. He is, and I'm proud to admit this to you, he is a Rest Is Politics US listener and Alistair Campbell the former comms director for Tony Blair who has another political podcast, him and I got together and interviewed Mark prior to his Chrystia Freeland primary race. We actually offered that to her as well, but she turned down the opportunity to have that interview. And so you could find that on, you know, where you get your podcast. But I've also, you know, look, he's been a friend and he is somebody that I admire. He's somebody I look up to. And here's a picture. I'm going to make you laugh. I host a wine party in Davos every year. And of course, Alistair was supposed to show up. There's your prime minister looking for Alistair Campbell. So, he's a bit of a like the rest of us. So, not only am I a good name dropper, David, but I can bring receipts. There you go.
So, there's your prime minister looking for Mark Carney,
which is a good laugh for everybody. But he's a very sober figure. He's a very smart man. He's got a great backbone. He's technically savvy. He's very well-trained as an economist and as a political thinker. And I think there's good reason why he has a 70% approval rating in your country. I'm going to say something teasing. You can cut it out if you want, but I'll say something teasing. If you accepted the merger between the US and Canada, I'd be fine with it because Carney would be president. I don't think Trump would be fine with it. Carney would be the front runner probably for the Democrats, you know, and he would go on and win the presidency. He's very popular here in the United States.
Well, probably not with the MAGA crowd, though. I don't think
Oh, not with the MAGA crowd. But the MAGA crowd is dwindling, sir. You know, you've got a 33% approval rating now for Trump, you know, and so that's the lowest approval rating since Richard Nixon left the White House.
How do you think Carney's handling Trump?
The best of any Western leader. Not even close. He's done a brilliant job of handling him. I will tell you that Trump probably talks to Carney more than any other Western leader.
What would they talk about? Carney kind of leaks that out to Canadians. We don't get reports on these things, but he says the guy texts me all the time and we have chats. What do you think that's about?
I think he doesn't like, you know, at the end of the day, this is a weird thing to say because he's the American president, but I know him a long time. He wants to be loved and he wants to be respected. And so if you're saying nasty things about him, even if they're true, he doesn't like it. So he's going to ban you from the White House press corps. He'll lose that case. He weirdly hates the sycophants. Now you say, 'Oh, that can't be true because look at the way they're all around him in the cabinet meetings and stuff like that.' But I know him. I campaigned with him. I know him from New York when people were doing that.
So why does he want that North Korean cabinet meeting where they all tell him what
because it's humiliating because he likes humiliating people. He has a mean streak in his personality and so he would want Anthony Scaramucci or David Hurley to bow to him at bended knee and say something about him that they didn't believe. Now he wouldn't respect you for it but he would enjoy the fact that you were willing to lie prostrate below him and you were willing to humiliate yourself on his behalf. Let me provide some more evidence of that. Mark Rutte, who I think is the greatest ass kisser in the Western world.
He's anti-Carney right now, right?
He's anti-Carney. He kisses Trump's ass. And what does Trump do? He screenshots the tweets or the, excuse me, screenshots the phone messages that come into the phone and then he sends them out to people to embarrass Rutte. Okay, you see, he's not screenshotting Carney's messages because I guarantee they're not embarrassing Carney. But what are they talking about? They're probably talking about everything other than trade. They're probably talking about national security issues, the Arctic, the situation in Greenland, you know, things like that that would be of interest to Canadians and fellow North American residents. But I think the trade thing will get resolved. And I'm still predicting we've got 10 or so days left in the month of September. I think it gets resolved pretty quickly because Trump is going to need the pressure off of him in those northern states. You know, Susan Collins is begging Trump to solve that.
Yeah. You know, the prime minister said something here in Canada that's going to make it difficult to get a deal to sign a deal with the Americans, and that is he said something that rang incredibly true to everybody, which is that under Trump, America's signature is in pencil.
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. But I think if you remember, I mean, I'm going to take you back. Three weeks ago now there was a deal on the table that was agreed to and Trump even tweeted out that he had a deal with the Canadians. You know Howard Lutnick and I promised people that I wouldn't call him buttlick anymore or nutlick so I didn't call him that. So just stipulating that I promise not to call him that anymore. But anyway he muffed up that deal and then he started asking for things that there was no way any Canadian prime minister because of your culture could ever accept. I mean, there's more aggressive things than this, but the symbolic stuff was the language. We don't want to put the French language on the stuff we're shipping to Quebec. Okay, we're not going to let that happen. That's just not going to happen. So, bye-bye. And I think they underestimated Prime Minister Carney, because he's like, 'Hey, you know, I'll pound sand for my people and not take a deal that's unfair for my people.' And they were thinking, well, he's going to take the deal because you know what? Canadians rely on shipping a lot of their goods here. It's $20 billion of the trade that we're talking about. It's meaningful. There are think tank economic estimates that the Canadians will lose 89,000 jobs over the result of this if there's a trade impasse that lasts longer than a year. And so all of that stuff would put pressure on a political leader. But I think people misunderstood the Canadian culture and misunderstood the respect that the Canadians have for their own national sovereignty. And I think that, you know, listen, you saw his sort of Maple Davos where he brought all those economic leaders together and you saw Prime Minister Harper talking there and whatever you think of Prime Minister Harper. As a Canadian, you got to love the fact that Harper and Carney are working together. I think, you know, again, I don't want to overly opine, sir, on your politics. I'm an American, but I'm just giving you my observation as somebody that's been around the political hoop for three decades.
Right? Well, actually, it was very interesting. I wanted it.
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Let's talk about your book.
Well, thank you. Thank you for reading it.
Oh, it was a pleasure to read it and I would encourage everybody to read it. And we all live through these three catastrophic decisions which are the admission of China into the World Trade Organization, the absolution of the financial industry after the 2008-2009 economic crisis and the invasion of Iraq after 9/11 and these three things and you paint a very compelling story about how these things led to Trump and I want to get into them but first I want to talk about you because you led to Trump. I tell my wife that she led to Trump because she watched The Apprentice, right?
