How are we doing, guys? We are right now, for the first time in my life, in Brazil. Before you start messing around back home about me being here in Brazil, I've already accepted it. I came to see these lands in person. People talk about Brazil so much that I finally came to see these lands. The only difference...
So, brother, all good or what? Oh, brother, very well, thank God you showed up out of the blue, brother.
Look, look, welcome. I'm with David Velez. I didn't expect you to show up so suddenly. We are in one of your Nubank offices, which, well, I see over there there's also a...
Yes, in this street we have three buildings, but this is the main one.
Okay. Here we are, here we are. And I think it's really cool because I've been here for like three hours or so, and I've been walking around the office, and I feel there's something very welcoming, very youthful colors, and I see a lot of young people working here.
Of course. Yes, yes, yes.
There's something in Nubank that has to do with youth, with young people.
The average age is 27 inside. But there are people from 17, 18 doing internships, up to, logically, all ages.
Of course. And these are offices where workers are, it has nothing to do with customers coming here.
It's workers, but the interesting thing is that since we don't have physical branches or anything like that, it happens that, well, we have 120 million customers in Brazil, so every day there are two or three customers who come here, they want to talk to someone. And the team had to create a protocol to see how to serve those customers, because we don't have, well, there is no physical money, there are no ATMs, there is nothing. So...
We have to talk about that in a bit because that is just too crazy. I mean, are you telling me that all customer service is virtual?
100% virtual. We are the largest private bank in Brazil now, and you won't find a single coin in this place or a single paper bill. It's all completely digital.
Let's go in. Come on, go ahead.
Well, we are with David Velez, who I imagine many people know, a very well-known person in Colombia, very well-known in the world. He has achieved some really big things, and obviously, it's a story of success. Imagine how everyone feels. I think this is one of the biggest streams I have ever done in my life.
Well, man, no, I've seen you a lot, and congratulations and thank you for the visit. This, we came here to this building back in like 2016. We started the company in a little house here in São Paulo.
A house. The house was the size of this, of this place here.
And we got to work with 30 people in that house, and then we moved to a bigger building.
We kept scaling up. The idea was to be in that building for like 5 years, and within six months it was full.
Phew! And I remember walking into this building saying, well damn, how did the rent go?
Ah, it's that this was the first one. After those three we came here, and we really needed to take a bigger leap for all the people.
And no, I spent two weeks without sleeping wondering, how are we going to pay the rent for this one? Will we be capable of making that jump and taking the risk?
Which is the most, well, the hardest part. You just jump into the ring like that and look at this.
And today, well, no, here we have a bit of the history here on this wall. We started in 2013. 2013. Here it is. I went, I started the company raising capital, and then I went and looked for my co-founders Cristina and Edward. Cris is Brazilian, Edward is American. I was the typical outsider. They would tell me, what is a Colombian doing in Brazil thinking of starting a bank? Never worked for a bank. Never knew a credit card.
It's just too much. Yes, it's a very strange story because, well, in the end, you didn't have that connection, right?
I was, I mean, I could see the opportunity because I was an outsider, I was outside the system. Sometimes it helps a lot being a foreigner and seeing the system with eyes to question things the way they are, right? Because if you're in that day-to-day, you don't see the opportunities. But once we started executing, I needed someone who was local, who understood the system from within, and that's where Cris came in. And we always saw ourselves as a technology company, not a bank, and she brought that focus on the technology side and helped us create the technology.
And good allies, I imagine, because in the end, look, it determined...
Tremendous allies who still remain with us in different areas. This is the little house where we more or less worked. Ah, this is the little house. We were there for almost two years. Edward, my co-founder, lived on the second floor. One of our first programmers lived with him. He worked 20 hours. The same programmer was there, the same guy with his boss working, living on the second floor and working on the first, and they worked 20 hours a day. We'd leave and Edward would be on the computer programming, and we'd come back the next day and Edward was still there on the computer programming.
Ah, okay. So, Edward is the programmer of everything.
That's it. An impressive, really tough guy who built our whole system, programmed it. We had a little dog there that we found at the São Paulo airport; one of our programmers found him all alone on the street and adopted him. So, we adopted him. We had him running around the house, walking. And this was the first card, one of the first that was printed. We launched 12 cards for the two employees. When we had the first card, there were 12 of them.
And there is a video out there on the internet showing the first transaction. All of us, after a year of working, like watching to see how it is. We went to a bar to buy some beers, we swiped the card and it didn't work, and everyone there, everyone was disappointed.
Oh, no, but it was recorded how you were watching to see if it worked. I have to see that video.
That video is really good. On the internet, there, how we were all so young, and obviously that's how it started. And people said: all the cards in Brazil were the same colors, they were all identical, they were all black, they were gold, and the idea was to get the most anti-bank color possible, a color that would make people say: how can a bank be that color?
Because the opportunity we saw is, I always tell the story of having been trapped in that bank branch here in São Paulo trying to open an account. Everyone, and it was an absurd experience. I didn't understand how these banks could treat people this way, and that's when I started to understand and look into it, and I realized that those people, there were five banks that owned 90% of the banking system in Brazil and Latin America. Right. They hadn't lost and had ignored customers for a long time, and it was a very backwards organizational culture, there was no innovation, they didn't think about the customer. So, in a way, from the beginning, we saw ourselves as the anti-bank. What's more, if you take 'nu' and flip it, it's symmetrical, it says 'un bank'.
Oh, I mean, here comes the anti-bank. That's tough, man.
We always saw ourselves culturally as the opposite of a bank in our organizational structure, in our culture, in the type of people we hire. If you look at this here and compare it to a bank or those buildings, there's a street here called Faria Lima, where the big banks are, that...
Where the people in suits and ties go to the offices. This is the opposite of that.
And I can tell you because when I arrived here, I only saw young people, a super... look at this, this doesn't look like a bank, right? And young people arrive, everyone is very, very cheerful, happy. Of course, I think the environment also makes them feel at home, makes them feel relaxed. I think it's super cool. In fact, I feel that one of the most incredible things a person can have in life is quick access to healthcare and quick access to a bank. I say that with those two things, one is happy. In Colombia, I still don't have a Nu bank account, which we were just talking about.
Yeah, we have to work on that. I said, I want my silver card, the latest one. Go for it, go for it. We'll send you one.
Since I don't have Nu bank in Colombia, I obviously constantly live through all these types of problems that you lived through here, and I see it, and I'm like: oh, there's a problem at the bank that I have to go to, and sometimes you send your legal representative and even then, you have to go yourself, and you say: 'Brother, your whole afternoon is gone.' So I think this is incredible. I imagine there is expansion, right?
Yes, yes, yes, yes. COL, right? In Colombia, we already have 6 million customers.
We are already the fifth largest bank, the fifth largest financial institution in Colombia. In Mexico, we have 16 million, and in Brazil, 120 million. So 140 million customers in these three countries, and we just launched in the United States a couple of weeks ago.
How difficult is it for a person to decide to switch banks? Do you think it's difficult?
I think at the beginning, at the beginning it's difficult, and that's why we started very focused on young people, because young people are much more open to using new technologies. Young people are more digital, they are digital natives. Yes, a person who is a bit older will always be more reluctant, they will have a harder time taking that risk and it's not a branch. But once, what we saw here is that once young people validate it and realize that instead of waiting 5 months for an account, they can open it in a minute, instead of paying thousands of pesos, instead of paying thousands of pesos, they don't have to pay anything, we don't charge anything. They realize it and say, 'But, but, what is this? Why Mom and Dad? Why are you with this bank?' And they tell their parents and then they tell their grandparents. Today we have customers in Brazil who are 90 years old, 100-year-old customers, customers of all demographics in 100% of the municipalities, in rural areas, in the Amazon, in the cities. In Colombia, we have customers in 98% of Colombia's municipalities. I mean, there are two municipalities in Chocó that we are missing to be in all the municipalities. You need to find people there in those municipalities to go and cover the whole country.
I mean, a young person can create their account as long as they are of legal age from their home and have their bank account. I mean, if I go, I can have it right away.
You download the app, in a minute you fill it out, the account opens, we send the credit card to your house, in one or two days it's there, and that's it; it has no cost and you're using a bank card sending money. Yeah, instead of going to beg the bank at the branch to open an account for you.
That's crazy, honestly. That's crazy, brother. Incredible, I mean, mind-blowing. What I think you did was bring the future to the present, that's why you have what you have. And here, what?
That was the first transaction, speaking of when we swiped the card and it didn't work, then we tried again and it did work. Here, it says in Portuguese, first transaction, April 1st of 2014, a lunch for 33 reais. That was the first transaction, the first of now billions of transactions.
And this, this is what we talk about when we say 'wow,' one of the things we said was there was so much resistance, and people felt, had so much fury against banks because of the experience, for making them wait five months. Imagine, millions in Brazil didn't even have access to banks, I mean, how crazy. So we said, how do we reinvent that customer experience and make it, like, absurdly good? And that's what we told our customer service team, you have to do, your number one task is to do things that blow the customer's mind with the experience. So, for example, one thing someone did, a customer called once and said, 'Hey, my dog ate my credit card, I need you to send me a new card.' And this person sent them a new card and sent a toy for the dog.
And this person took the dog toy, put it on the internet, they created a channel with 300,000 people on Facebook, and they started a virality of things. A traditional bank would say, 'But how are you doing that? You don't have the money to send that to every customer, you're going to go broke.' Yes, but on the contrary, that kind of thing, us sending... a person called and said, 'I'm going with my wife to Italy and I'm getting married, I need a higher limit.' The person from our team didn't know about them, but handwritten a list of restaurants in Italy saying, 'These are the best places.' And I made a reservation at the restaurants for them. So, reinvent, reinvent the customer experience.
Oh, that's crazy, man. No, everything was going here. The first building, I imagine.
This was the one we are in here, and this one that is here in front, the two are from this same startup. And in 2017 we opened an office in Germany, which was our first step in building engineering outside of Latin America. And in 2018 we launched our second product, which was the account. We always started with a credit card and then with the account.
Very fast progress, right? Too fast.
For like four years, we were super focused doing only one little thing, which was that credit card in Brazil.
I'm going to say something, I'm going to tell the people here. You know that I've been streaming for a long time, right now we are talking, three months was the schedule for this stream. This is the stream I've looked forward to the most, sorry, brother. Three months. I can only imagine your schedule.
Yeah, yeah. Well, but we did it, we did it.
A person like you with such a brutal schedule, I mean, traveling all the time, meetings every other minute, I mean, honestly, it's a life. Do you think it's heavy?
It's very heavy. Yes, traveling every single week. Basically.
Exactly. And just when I was talking about that, I said, 'Man, I hope I can do a stream with him, that'd be so cool.' And they told me, 'No, the guy's schedule, man, you have to wait three months.' I'll wait three months, no problem. I got here and now that I'm here, my question is that, I mean, at what point can you keep advancing and keep working knowing you don't need to anymore? Yes, because at some point you do it for the challenge and to redefine what success is, right? Because it's like a video game, every step has been a higher level of difficulty.
Uh-huh. First it was, it seemed impossible that we could reach a million customers in Brazil when they told us all these banks were going to kill us, boycott us, and not allow any competition. So, a million customers seemed impossible. We reached 1 million in 2 years. Then we leveled up, we went to the second level, let's build the biggest bank in Brazil, and we got there in 6 years, and then we said, let's start internationalizing. We went to Mexico and Colombia, and there we became the second largest digital bank in Mexico and among the largest in Colombia and Brazil. And just two weeks ago, we took the next step, which was launching in the United States, which is the world's largest market, and a global account for 35 countries. So, in the end, it's about looking ahead, there's so much to do, and if you're having fun, working with cool people, good people, well, it doesn't feel like work, right?
Of course. And bringing a good product as well, in the end.
And changing people's lives, having fun, doing something good for people, which is ultimately the great motivation.
That's tough, bro, honestly. What a great answer, man. Look at that answer. Because of course, in the end, it's also a project you're working on, to be what will take it to the next level.
Yes. Guinness Record. This was really funny because one of the things we said at some point was, and it's a marketing action. You, who understand the marketing side very well. We said we wanted, when we launched our ultraviolet product, which is a new product, we held a whole competition to see if we could win the Guinness Record for the consumer product with the most people unboxing it at the same time.
So, we invited a bunch of customers. I don't remember how many it was, it doesn't say here, several thousand customers, and they all sat down, took the credit card box, and they all did the unboxing.
It's the biggest unboxing in history.
In history in the world. In the world. And they gave us, there's a Guinness Record person there. They gave us a record.
Nice Guinness. Guinness record, honestly. Good memory.
And hello Mexico, Colombia.
In 2019 we launched in Mexico and Colombia. Eh, we have to do something in Colombia.
Yes, we have to do something in Colombia. No, we are going to do Colombia. Let's do this in the office in Colombia too.
The truth is, I'm not saying this because you are here. I don't like the banks in Colombia, bro. I don't like them because, obviously, I manage my own stuff, my own things. I know how difficult it is to be with a bank in Colombia. I want to try it, I want to try it out. I'm telling you, not because you're here, because obviously, man, one also wants, obviously for one's own efficiency.
No, no, no. You'll see, you'll see. We're going to open, help you open that account right now.
Here is Luisa Fuentes. Another one. This was the first account in Colombia. Luisa is a customer from Colombia who became a huge fan of Nu. She started telling people in Colombia, in Bogotá, about it and was one of our ambassadors. A lot of what we have seen is that growth becomes viral through word of mouth. We didn't go in investing a lot of cash in marketing or anything. It has been organic. People are fascinated by the product and have these experiences, and they go tell their family, their parents, they go on social media and say, 'Hey, this is impressive.' And they compare it with the experience they have with banks. Saying, 'Why isn't everyone using this?' And that is how Luisa became a great customer of ours in Colombia.
What can David Velez say is still missing from Nu? Because it's no longer Nu Bank, it's no longer Bank, right?
In Colombia, we are Nu. Okay. Here, it is Nu Bank.
Okay. What can you tell us? Because in Colombia, what can you say you have at Nu Bank, but what is missing that another bank might have?
Well, there is still a lot to build in Brazil. First, we already have a much more complete portfolio that we still need to launch in Colombia and Mexico. So here we have a more premium type of card called Ultraviolet and Croma, and the 'moradita,' which is the basic one we have here. So there are already various segments with loyalty programs and rewards. Sure, having one of the top-tier cards might be useful for things at the airport. You can start, you can go to the frequent flyer lounges at airports; it gives you points, gives you miles, all that stuff. We will have that in Colombia soon too, I hope. Those different segments. We have, here we already have an investment platform; so, people can invest and buy stocks, they can buy crypto, they can buy fixed income within the app, you can buy Bitcoin, you can also buy a whole portfolio of insurance, you can already book your trips, you can book plane tickets and hotels within ours. Guarantee: we have a guarantee that if the ticket price changes and then drops, you are automatically given the difference for the price changes on the tickets.
Right, it's not just an application for your money. It is an application that serves you for more things.
It is already becoming like a super app. It is an application that tries to solve many of your day-to-day problems. We have an account for small businesses, which is something we really want to launch in Colombia. There is a lot of need for small businesses; if consumers have difficulty with banks, those with small businesses have it even harder.
And for young people, for example, many young people, let's talk about Colombia, it's hard for them to even get a bank card, I mean, it's not easy, right?
No. And besides that, you know that in Colombia, for example, look at the mortgages, how high they are, it doesn't make any sense, you know what I mean? I mean, those are the things that I feel no one can change, right?
For young people here in Brazil, and again, we want to have it in Colombia soon. There are already accounts for children and for people between 6 and 18 years old. So parents can give their kids cards, they can have control, they can save together. Very good. It's one of the fastest-growing segments we have here in Brazil. Kids, people 8, 9, 10 years old who start saving and start learning how a credit card works.
No, incredible. Sure, imagine an 8-year-old already learning to use a card; obviously, when they grow up, they won't go through what most people have gone through with banks. Right, that later they end up in debt or get blacklisted and can never get another card again. They learn to manage that from a young age. And let's talk about someone who is blacklisted in Colombia. Can they get a card? Can someone get a card?
Probably when someone is blacklisted, what we usually do is they can open a card with a low limit, okay? And as they pay that limit and keep paying the card on time, that credit line increases every month.
Good, so they are given the opportunity, they aren't denied the chance.
Exactly. Or they can also make a deposit, and then they get a credit line, and once they start using it and paying on time, they build a credit history, and that's how the person can get out of that credit bureau that many people end up stuck in.
Incredible. Hear that? That is very good, that is very tough. Sure, because there are many people, also young people, people who are blacklisted or who have never had the opportunity to have a bank that doesn't open its doors to them. Incredible. Yes. What's this here? Intelligence, what is written?
Ah, this is intelligent efficiency. This was when we opened our first office in the United States, especially the engineering side, which we opened in Virginia and in New York. And here in 2021, 2022, already the different...
Ah, this is the one I want.
This is the one, the ultraviolet one. Yes, plus we're launching a new one here. The chroma is missing here, the one that goes in the middle.
And what are the benefits of this one? I mean, what would you say are the biggest benefits of this one?
That one gives you cashback here, between 1 to 2% cashback. Incredible. And you have a mode called 'LATAM,' where if you press it, instead of cashback, it goes to airline miles. So, everything you spend starts accumulating airline miles. It also has airport lounge access all over the world, and here at the São Paulo airport, when you travel through São Paulo, you can stay there. We have it, we give you a pass. A very cool lounge where people can go in and wait.
Oh, right. Those who have all the cards can enter there. Incredible. Incredible. And a question, does Nu have anything so that young people or anyone can have their CDTs?
Yes, of course. We have what we call 'savings boxes,' okay? Where you invest, and one of the things Nu has really done is give you a very high return on your money, between 13 and 15% interest on the money saved.
So, that's huge for people because most people's banks pay them zero for their money. 0%.
Most people see their savings shrinking because banks pay zero and charge a bunch of fees. In contrast, here we show people every day how we deposit money into their savings and how it grows and they are really saving. And that is a huge paradigm shift.
To make it simpler. If a person puts 100 million pesos in an account, I don't know what it's called, it's a savings box. After a year, how much do they have?
13 million just for having the money there.
Just for having the money sitting there. And that fluctuates a bit depending on the interest rate, but yes.
I think I'm going to move my money into one of those, right? So, obviously someone who has a lot of money will earn much more, right?
It goes up much more. It goes up much more. Imagine 70% of the people who have bank accounts, the banks pay them zero.
Zero. So for the people, the banks don't pay them for having their money. It's the other way around.
It's the opposite, you're absolutely right, aren't you? This one is incredible. Incredible. This one is for small businesses too. Business. So, for everyone, we have more than 6 million micro-entrepreneurs here in Brazil, and they have our white card account and it helps them a lot. We have a...
This is an interesting story. In 2021, we did our IPO in New York. So, the company became public. We went there to the New York Stock Exchange to ring the bell; that was when the company went public, and basically, anyone today can buy a NU share. And when we did that, our focus has always been our customers, right? As I was saying, our goal has always been how we bring our customers along. So, we decided to do something that hadn't been done anywhere in the world, which was giving a Nubank share to more than 8 million customers.
Those 8 million customers became partners of Nubank.
Of course. And we also let them buy Nubank shares in our app. And this is a little piece; we call it the 'pedacinho.' The little piece represents the piece of Nubank that we gave to every person.
And it became the stock with the largest number of owners in the Brazilian market.
Another Guinness World Record.
Another Guinness Record. Pretty cool, right?
And I want to tell you something, I've had many meetings with many friends who are entrepreneurs or people in Colombia who want to do projects, and I understand your whole story because every time I have a meeting, David Velez is on the slide. I'm telling you, brother, I'm telling you. It's a pleasure to be here because for all the entrepreneurs in Colombia, and well, obviously for the majority of entrepreneurs in Colombia and for many entrepreneurial people, they use your story as a method of motivation and also as, 'Hey, I'm going to follow the steps that David Velez followed.' I was sitting there, just normally, I've sat with many very tough people and they all tell me, 'David Velez comes up, look, for example, at what David Velez did.' Hey, David Velez is always in an entrepreneur's conversation. It's impressive, brother. That's why I'm very grateful for the space, and also for the people that we are about to sit down with, getting advice from this man must be crazy. You know, imagine being with the—we are literally with the man. We're with the man, dude. We're with the man. That's what—well, let's move on a little.
Let's move on here. Thank you. 2024, 100 million customers or what? In 2024 we reached 100 million customers, a number that seemed absurdly impossible, right? Like, reaching 100 million. It's not... already 140. And this place we're about to enter is where we hold company-wide meetings. Every two weeks or every month, we hold a company-wide meeting. Logically, there are people in different offices around the world, but this place really represents our history here. You'll see, for example, very little of what we just saw, right?
And like I'm telling you, look, the whole environment, all the work offices have a super calm, comfortable vibe so that everyone feels relaxed, that here at first was going to be the part where we'd sit, but not anymore, not anymore, we have another cooler place now.
But let me show you, for example, that little house is there again, the little house where we started. Oh, there's the building where we are now. The New York Stock Exchange where we do the, and many in our first offices, we had a giant mural of dinosaurs. They were five giant dinosaurs that represented each of the five big banks in Brazil, and for a long time our vision as a company was to go against the dinosaurs and we talked a lot about the dinosaurs. But when we moved to this building, we changed that a bit. We said, 'Let's stop being against something and start being for something.' So the dinosaurs ended up enveloped in a Nubank purple smoke. There they are, purple now, and we focus on our customers, we want customers, a Colombian customer there with the little Colombian flag, customers of all, like young, old, athletes, young, old, anyone can obviously be a customer.
It's like the concept they have organized. Very cool, very cool. And you know I really like purple.
Yes, the purple. Yes, I also had planned to make a bank with purple. You beat me to it. Well, this way, that way.
Let's go this way. Let's go up here. Okay. And let's pop in there for a bit. Well, and the new offices, the internet doesn't drop in the elevator.
Let's see if the elevator works. Yes, the internet doesn't drop in the elevator. That is the craziest thing about... Oh, so people stay connected there, right? And you know what I find the craziest thing, honestly? The fact that all these offices are only for people who work at Nubank, not for customers. I mean, are you telling me that you really don't have any—I mean, you must have problems, obviously, like everything, but that people really don't come here to complain, like those lines at banks back in Colombia, and you just say, 'Wow,'
Everything is digital, everything is digital. Obviously, sometimes we fail and the app glitches, but, well, obviously we're working on it. We try to recover as quickly as possible. Let's see over here. This is one of what we call the Nu Creative Lab, our creative laboratory where many of the teams come to imagine new products, to discuss new opportunities, to think about how we can continue to delight those customers, which is the goal of everything we have.
No, but look at the environment, that's what I'm telling you. Look at this incredible environment. There are a bunch of cameras here, see? No, incredible, honestly, but it's incredible—who wouldn't work calmly, who wouldn't work relaxed? They really have a very strong concept that, I repeat, for that same reason is why they are the biggest, and that's what it is. What madness, brother. No, and everything is very focused on purple. Like I tell you, I love that color.
Yes, it was—I remember when we showed the first cards, a lot of people said, 'You guys are crazy.' You're crazy because it was a color that created a strong reaction from a lot of people. They said banks had to be much more conservative, traditional colors that speak to their 100-year, 200-year legacy. We wanted—we didn't care if people loved it or hated it, but they couldn't ignore it. That's the point.
No, no one can ignore it. Inevitable. That on that table full of cards that are all the same, this one would stand out, so when you go and pay with the card and everything, your friends would immediately say, 'Hey, what is that? What did you just pull out?'
And that was what we managed to build with that color, which was something completely different from what traditional banks actually used.
What happened when you reached 100 million customers? I mean, what was done? Was there a huge celebration or did you just know that we're going to keep working? What happened there? Because that is way too historic. 100 million is a lot.
We were there in that room where I showed you earlier, where it is, and it was very interesting because at first the goal was 1 million in 5 years, let's say in 2 years. And there in one of those meetings with the whole company we said, 'Well, let's increase the level of ambition, we were at 500 [thousand], let's add a zero.' We said the goal now is 10 million. And people jumped. I said, '10 million, that's impossible.' That's what they said, 'How are we going to reach 10 million?' People were nervous, it's impossible to get there. We are barely at 500,000, that's 20 times the growth, but we said 10 million and there we kept growing, growing, growing.
And when we reached about 7 or 8 million, already getting to 10, there was a trip that I took with Crazy and with Edward to China and we saw some of the biggest fintechs and digital banks in China and several of them had 600 million, 700 million. How crazy. We returned from China here and in one of those meetings with the whole company we said, 'Well, the goal now is to add one more zero and the goal is 100 million,' and everyone jumped again. Impossible.
You arrive in China like that, right?
No. And it's very interesting how we place limitations on ourselves. Human beings place limitations on ourselves and we use those words. It's impossible. There were many people who said, 'It's not realistic to think we'll reach 100 million or it's impossible.' And we arrived. So, and now we are saying, 'Add another zero and reach a billion.' And again everyone says, 'But it's impossible, it's not realistic.' And a bit of the lesson has been, nobody knows what we are capable of. The limitations we put in our heads are self-imposed by our fears of failing. 'What will they say about us if we don't make it?' Because we are afraid to aim too high. We always aim very low and that is what we have consistently tried to change here, which is to tell people to aim as high as possible. And it's better to aim high and miss and fail than to aim low and hit. Yeah. So increase ambition and encourage people to dream big.
Look. And look at who is telling you that. Look at who is telling you that. And it's a reality, brother. Many people, right, even I, imagine, you can't deny it, as a dreamer, you often see things as very far off, and you see all your history and all the businesses you've started and how you've built the empire you're building. Sure, sure. But you always see everything as very far off, like it's very far from reality, and, well, it becomes real when you truly believe in the vision, when you truly love the project, and there really is a good project and a good team; the probability of failure is very low, extremely low. I imagine that Nu is at its peak right now.
Yes, but I think we can multiply by ten from here on out. I mean, still with the birth of the United States, other countries, more products, and even in Brazil, we have 7% of the market. Even in Brazil, although almost 70% of Brazilians are Nu customers. Imagine, out of 10 people on the street, seven are our customers. That's crazy. Despite that, we only have 7% of that market. So, we could triple our size just with Brazil alone, and then comes Mexico, and Colombia, and the United States. So, it's really hard to imagine the potential that still exists.
And what about the other banks, the traditional banks? Don't you feel they will adapt and eventually become like Nu? Well, that's the future, ultimately.
Yes. No, no, no. And we have some phrases where we are; there was one quote I like a lot, apparently something Gandhi said, which is: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win. And those have been the phases of the traditional banks. First, they ignored us. For 3 or 4 years, we ran like crazy, without making much noise, and the banks didn't even know we existed. And then some of the more reactionary ones said, 'Hey, what are these people doing?' And that's when they started to laugh at us. These people will never make money. That business model doesn't work. Those crazy people without bank branches will never have a ton of credit history. So, it's best to be ignored. And I think you understand that well. It's better to be mocked and ignored because then you can quietly go and run and execute.
Much better. Uh-huh. And now we are in that phase where they are fighting and competing. Everyone has realized this is the future; some are doing a very good job and are very strong competitors. Sure. Some are lagging behind, but yes, there is more competition now and that is good for everyone. It's good for us that they compete, it's good for the consumer that there are 10, 20 Nubanks offering better services, and instead of offering 13, they offer 15 or 20 and less. That competition is what must exist in this industry, which for a long time it never did. Sure. And I say the order is different. They ignore you, they laugh at you, they fight you, you win, and then they copy you.
Ah, well, for me that is the end.
Sure, it is the end. Then they copy you, then they say, 'No, if we can't beat them, let's do what they are doing. Let's copy them.' Because in the end, Nubank is what it is right now because it is new, it didn't exist. Do you understand me? It is a... And for me, it is the future of banks. That is why I ask you this question. I say, eh, I can't believe that Nubank is almost entirely digitized because that is where the world is headed and other banks will remain with their headquarters and their giant 3-hour lines, you understand? They will have to automate themselves too as we move forward, right?
And they automate and digitize, but it is harder than just making an app, much, much more, because in that phase of ignoring you... Sure, they think, 'Ah, it's an app, I can do the same and I'm going to build an app.' And many of them went and did it, and they realized it was much more than an app; it was a culture, it was the people, it was the purpose, it was the technological infrastructure under that app, it was a series of things that end up being much harder to copy at that moment.
Do you think Nubank is closer to being the bank, because it is already the largest digital bank in the world?
No, I think there is one in China larger than us, but in the Western world, we are the best.
Aha, in the world. Well, it is closer. To when you started, right now, when you started, I imagine you said, one million was something very crazy for you, then 10 million. Are you closer to being the biggest bank in the world right now, or were you closer back when you had a million users on the way to ten? Because I think what's coming with Nu is insane.
It is insane. I think we obviously still have a long way to go, but we have much more capacity now, more resources, we're more profitable, we have a brand, so we can build upon everything we've already built.
Look, we're going to be sitting here for a while. These are the chairs for all the viewers. They'll be there, invisible. Have a seat. Here we go, let's keep talking. Yes, we have other meetings here with all the teams. You've had all your meetings here. Nice, look. Everything looks great, purple, everything. It's crazy, it's just crazy. Well, we're going to sit here and have a chat, because I think it's important to touch a little on your life story, right? Sounds great. Let's see if we can all get a little motivated, see if we can find some inspiration, because I've read a bit, and I think most people have also read a lot about your story by now. I don't know if the people watching have done a little research. I did some research. Besides, as I told you, we have a meeting. Just recently we had a meeting. The meeting we had, Carlos, with that guy who told us—David Vélez is mentioned in almost every meeting, David Vélez is like a role model for all the entrepreneurs out there. I have a question, because you founded and created this massive empire. When someone has the idea to build such an empire, the moment you actually create it, you need a huge amount of capital or investment. How do you make that decision? For someone who doesn't have it, who doesn't have that monetary capacity, doesn't have the friends, doesn't have the contacts, how do you think they can go about creating an empire like this?
I always wanted to be an entrepreneur, but especially when I was in college, I said, 'I want to start something, I want to learn.' And I didn't have the resources, I didn't have the network, I didn't have it, but it was always on my mind. I wanted to do something, I wanted to go my own way. I come from a family of pure entrepreneurs from all over, and what we had for breakfast, lunch, and dinner was that you have to be an entrepreneur, you have to build your own path. One can depend on something. How tough, man. But at that time, around 20, 21, 22 years old, I felt I wanted to do something, but didn't know where to start. I didn't have the idea, nor did I have capital. And there, what I did was: I went and looked for a job and built a career in finance and financial services, and later I ended up working with an investment fund that invested in companies; and that was when I came to Brazil, I had that experience with the bank, a terrible experience with the bank. And that was when the dots connected, so to speak. You said, 'This is the idea, this is the opportunity.'
It's as if your whole life you had been prepared for that moment.
Exactly. Like the dots connected. Yes. And well, at that moment I didn't, I didn't have capital, but I already had relationships with my previous bosses and the first thing I did was go talk to my ex-boss and tell him, 'Look, this opportunity, give me give me something to start.' Sure. And my ex-firm, they had initially decided to go open an office in Brazil and had changed their minds and said, 'No, we're not going to open anymore.' And that was when I also started to think about what to do and thanks to that, my boss said, 'Well, we don't really understand what you want to do with this digital bank, we don't know anything about Brazil, they're American bosses, but you worked very well here, right? I mean, you did a very good job. Take this. We'll give you seed capital and you have to find another investor to give you other local seed capital because we don't understand local matters.' And there I went and talked to a bunch of funds and I found another one that told me, 'Okay, go for it, I'll put in another million.' That ex-boss gave me a million and the other one gave me another million.
