Ari Gate was really kind to me. As soon as I walked in, he gave me a hat. The hat said 'rage' on it, and I thought it was really cute. The note said, 'I'll read it to you for a moment.' Ah, I can't find it right now. The point was, 'Thank you so much for doing this. If it doesn't work out, screw you.'
Hello everyone. Today my guest is the chairman and CEO of TKO and chairman of the WME Group, Ari Emanuel.
Ari is a heavyweight in the entertainment industry, with a long career of founding and merging companies in Hollywood. He recently published his memoir, 'Roll With the Calls.' It's a really fascinating book, but it also contains some heartbreaking content. Ari calls himself 'rage-ent.' He's an intense agent, and that rage has been his driving force for a long time. It's a really gripping book, and he tells stories about many people, but at the same time he's sharply critical of many people as well. This interview was recorded in front of a live audience at a talk event in Los Angeles. So shall we get started? Ari, thank you for joining us.
First, I want to talk about the emotional parts of this book, but I won't cover the following content. If that's okay with you. I won't talk about Ari Gold.
Yes. I don't care about that person at all. Eating bugs and following crazy health regimens—I have absolutely no interest in that.
I don't care when you die.
Or your crazy travel schedule.
You don't care about those things, right?
And the porn scene in the movie 'The Departed.' If you came to hear that story, I'm sorry, but I won't be talking about that. But the first line of your memoir is a quote from Raoul Walsh. He's a director who talks about work, especially how important work is and the act of working itself. I think this book is exactly about that. And I think this book is a drama about power—about who has power, who doesn't, and how you get power—more than any other work you've written. Hmm, actually, it doesn't seem to be a story about rage. Of course, you talk a lot about rage early in the book. And I think that's your unique style. Like my style is a bit of a sharp lesbian.
You're a sharp lesbian too?
Yes, Jerry. Really sharp.
Hmm, but you show that very overtly. I'll quote you: 'Every story begins with rage and ends with rage in some way. Either you're angry, or you become an accomplice.' We fight, and we have sex too. Wrestling without rage is just hugging. There are no small enemies. History has been made by bad feelings as much as by good intentions. And of course, you coined the expression 'rage-ent.'
Yeah. You seem like exactly that kind of person. A rage-ent agent. Okay, let me ask you something. But tell me what your tough-guy mask allowed you to do throughout your career, and whether it helped or hurt you. Answer the next question.
I know you're full of rage right now.
That's right. Cormac McCarthy said that rage is about things that can be fixed, and the rest is grief. That's exactly what I'm like. Hmm, I'd rather fight against rage, deal with that rage, and try to find my identity. Because our family, as you well know, I had brothers—the smart Zeke, the artist Ram, and there was another one.
And I should mention upfront, I'm sorry I call this the manual I hate the most.
It's okay. They're wonderful.
Yes, they really are. But please continue.
So, it was like that. Coming home and my grades were improving, I had dyslexia, and that was important in our house. Growing up under an immigrant father and mother. So I was angry about the fact that I wasn't stupid. I wanted to find my place, and I wanted to work hard. When I came here, my friend Pete Berg was here. I only had a Plan A. There was no Plan B.
I could do anything for Plan A. Because I wanted to have an identity, and for some reason, this work flipped a switch inside me. And I wasn't going to let anyone stop me from going where I wanted to go. Even though I didn't know where that was. I just thought of it as 'where I love to be.' I really loved it. I liked that. It was hard, but I had to find my identity, and everything that stood in the way of that path provoked rage.
But why did you use the word 'rage,' and what quote did you use? You were just angry.
When someone ruined the story in my head.
It was like a chess game I played to get where I wanted to go.
In wrestling, I didn't like that person.
Hmm, that provoked a lot of rage.
But who exactly were you angry with at first?
Hmm, that was something I had to figure out gradually, like peeling an onion. Yes.
I didn't know at first. Then Dr. Kamm appeared.
The therapist in the book. Hmm.
I was just angry. I wasn't angry at some fate or at anyone. Hmm. And I was looking for a place where I could be recognized as truly competent. And that rage seemed to come from acting in my own way, my own manner. Hmm. As you know, I didn't want to be caught as the stupid brother. Right? Or I was afraid someone would notice I wasn't smart. So I kept fighting inside. I'm not saying I talk like that. Anyway, it's a tough thing, right?
You work really hard, but many people stand in your way, and you have a goal you want to reach. Whether it's real or imagined. So you thought bullying was the way. That's what you did. Then when Endeavor came along, you realized that rage and aggression alone couldn't take you further. For the employees who were loyal to you.
That's right? So sometimes it actually manifested as violence. For example, hitting someone with a food tray.
Uh, yes, when I was young. So, well, you know.
Yes. Yes. At that time...
There's another thing. He was making fun of someone because I wasn't in special education.
And he was making fun of someone.
It was someone I knew. So I asked him not to do that, to stop. And he agreed not to.
It's like picking up a chair. Mike Wazowski. There was only one other option.
I'm going to beat you to death.
There was no option like pouring jelly on your head or beating you until you couldn't think straight.
At that time, there was no such option.
Really? Wasn't that an option?
But depending on how things went, if there was a lunch tray, nobody knew what would happen. Look here.
I don't care. I could try, but I don't think I could win against a lesbian. You'll never make it. You've shrunk. I know you're a wrestler, but I have skills too.
Hmm, the richest person in the world called me evil. So I'm good. I'll get along with you too. It'll be simple. Hmm, he's much slower and fatter though. His movements are slow too. Hmm, that's your friend. Anyway, let's talk about that friend later. Hmm, this is a kind of meme about telling the truth to power. And you made a really interesting argument in your book, for example, that an angry negotiator is better.
Hmm, but among the people you criticized in your book—there are so many I won't say who—someone wrote to me: 'As a businessman, I feel insulted by that person advocating rage as positive action.'
How would you respond? Tell that son of a bitch to go screw himself. Okay.
I don't know who that person is, but I'd say it's complete bullshit. Among the people you mentioned, there were probably many who felt rage in their own way. Maybe they swallowed it inside and pretended to be positive. Tell all those sons of bitches to go screw themselves. It's all bullshit. I'm going into the room now, and you know exactly what I'm going to do, and I'm satisfied with that. Okay. No pretense.
Turn on the lights, take out the guns, let's get started.
Actually, that's my story.
Okay. But answer seriously. Is rage positive action? Is it the best way to get things done? I mean, you've had all kinds of partners.
There are many steps to negotiating and getting what you want.
And there has to be a corresponding basis for it.
There were other ways too. I wouldn't have gotten this far with rage alone.
That's right, that's right, that's right. For me,
There are other ways too. I understand.
I know too. One of your methods is constantly calling people. You did it to me too. One of the ways I drive him crazy is not answering the phone.
And you can just send a text, right? Like all the ordinary people I know, and if ordinary people send texts. I understand.
But if texts existed and then suddenly the phone was invented, damn. You could call someone? That would be really cool. I don't answer the phone. I'm still... and the problem is his poor...
That wasn't what I said. Do you know whose line that was? It was Ron Meyer's line.
Yes. But reading this memoir, I learned a lot about you. There were probably unintended parts too. What I felt while reading was exactly that. Recently on Pivot, I told Scott Galloway that this memoir was unintentionally thoughtful. Hmm, what do you think? It was funny. It was funny that you laughed at yourself.
Well, I'm a funny person.
Hmm, so what do you think this memoir reveals about you? I think it's a more interesting story, and it also shows how sensitive a person you are. Hmm. And I think your ghostwriter J.R. Moehringer drew a lot out of you.
Hmm, how should I say my way of life? Hmm, you know, what do they call it in computers? RSI? The AI or SI that we fear, whatever you call it, is that what you mean by a computer?
Ah, that's right. We won't call it that.
