Why Success Won't Make You Happy — with Arthur Brooks | Office Hours

Most people think they're going to get happier from their 20s to 30s and 40s, and they actually get unhappier from their 20s to 30s and 40s, and then in their 50s it turns around. And you and I can attest to this. Your 50s and 60s are freaking awesome. They're awesome. It's a renaissance. If you're not addicted to drugs and alcohol or clinically depressed, there's going to be—it's like a bonanza. Then what really matters is that the decisions that you make that will determine whether or not you're in the half of the population that gets happier all the way to the end, or you start back down again, which about half the population does around age 70.

Hey, thank you. It's great to be with you. How are you today? Where are you today?

I'm in Northern Virginia. I live outside Washington, D.C., actually.

That's great. It's great here. We actually moved back here from Boston to get all the kids and grandkids in the same general area, including in the same house. So I was reading my own research that said you should have your family all in the same place, and yeah, and it turns out to be great. We've got a compound. It's a cult, I think.

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to channel Scott Galloway here. Because you're doing what you were told you're supposed to want as opposed to doing what you want. You didn't do the hard work of actually figuring out what it is that you want, and what people told you that you wanted was a bunch of, you know, bro-shaped protocols, a bunch of lists of things, and you're trying to do all of it. And the result of it is that you're—that—that's the definition of being stretched too thin. What we need to do as, you know, people of good faith—and by the way, I use that expression on purpose. That's what Jean-Paul Sartre talked about—is actually figuring out the essence of your life is good faith, is to do the work to figure out what actually it is that you want, which is probably a subset of the things that you're currently doing. You don't have to go do a bunch of new things. You don't need to add more brushstrokes to your canvas. You just need to start chipping away the marble that is this statue so that you can find the real piece of artwork that's within. You need to start taking some things away. But you have to start with the work.

No, that's great. And actually, that's very astute because, you know, you've seen the data on how people get happier as they get older. And most people think they're going to get happier from their 20s and 30s and 40s, and they actually get unhappier from their 20s to 30s and 40s. And then in their 50s, it turns around. And you and I can attest to this. Your 50s and 60s are freaking awesome. They're awesome. It's a renaissance. If you're not addicted to drugs and alcohol or clinically depressed, there's going to be—it's like a bonanza. And then what really matters is the decisions that you make that will determine whether or not you're in the half of the population that gets happier all the way to the end, or you start back down again, which about half the population does around age 70. And that's a different conversation, of course, but the big surprise for a lot of people is, you know, when my dreams start coming true because I did all this work, I thought I was going to be happier, but I'm not. And the explanation for that is really in the corner pocket of what you just said, Scott. Happiness is a combination of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. And in your 20s, 30s, and 40s, your enjoyment is falling, but your meaning is rising. The enjoyment is how you measure how happy you are from moment to moment and from day to day. And when that's going down, you feel like you're getting less happy, whereas actually your life is getting more meaningful. And that's the big payoff in your 50s and 60s. And so that's very likely what's happening with our young friend.

That's a work-life balance question. It's a classic work-life balance question. And that's generally a misapprehension of how your life is supposed to work. Work-life balance is a huge lie. And the reason is because it distinguishes between work and life. I mean, look, you and me—it's like some of the best, most fun times we've had in our lives. They're work. You know, that's actually the work, but our work isn't our whole lives. You and I are family men. We're married. We love our wives. We love our kids. In my case, I'm crazy about my grandsons. I got a ton of grandsons. It's the best. And the point is that my work makes my home life better and my home life makes my work life better, which means you need work-life integration, not work-life balance. And so when you're going crazy, you're going, you know, you're wrapped around the axle in all the decisions that you're trying to make, it's probably because you're actually trying to adjudicate between work and life, not saying, okay, is my work making my home life better or worse? Am I having a screaming argument with my wife all the time because I'm spending the 14th hour at the office instead of the first hour with my kids? Or is it that my home life is infringing on my ability to be successful in my career? And if either one of those is the case, it means you're not integrating the two appropriately or thinking about it wrong. What's your view, Scott?

Yeah. No, no, I completely get it. I'm out of the dating market, too. My chronic workaholism—I've had four distinctly different careers. Starting as a—I was a French horn player all the way through my 20s, you know, playing in symphony orchestras, and then I got my PhD, I was a college professor, and then I was a think tank chief executive. I ran a big think tank in D.C., and now I, you know, have this happiness business, and four distinctly different things. And the way that I ran those things was by working 80 hours a week through my entire career. And it cost me my hair, but not my marriage. You know, thank God, because I had this partner who was along with me and tried to moderate these ideas for me. And one of the things that's pretty interesting is the other side of the sexist coin is this: that women who actually figure out the balance issue are much happier than men.

So men, you know, in their 20s and 30s who try to get enough balance because they know it's the right thing to do, they're not always very happy. But women who do are blissfully happy. And so women who have what Michael Driver, the great USC psychologist who died a couple years ago, he talked about the spiral career, which is the happiest professionals are not these linear guys like you and me. Next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing. They're people who actually will dial down, dial up, you know, change industries. Women are really good at spiraling their careers. They'll come out of college, they'll do something, you know, move to New York, do something professional, get married, dial back, go part-time while they raise their kids, come back into the workforce in a nonprofit role, perhaps change industries, and those who do it well, they're happier than men.

And I'll amend what you said because I completely agree, obviously, but I'll amend that to say it's very important to allow yourself to be found by the right partner as well. And one of the biggest things—it's interesting because, you know, people who are in search mode for anything, for the perfect career, for the perfect partner, they're violating the first principle of what you do when you're lost. If you're lost in the woods, any Eagle Scout watching us right now knows: stay put. Don't start wandering around the woods. You're less likely to be found and you're more likely to starve to death or freeze to death or get eaten by a bear. Stay put and take care of yourself until they actually find you. And that's one of the most important things to do is to be open to what you want. The universe's gears will turn and to allow yourself to be found, which is really, really critical and important. Most people who are real seekers and not finding what they want is because they actually are not allowing themselves to be found. They're not actually—they don't understand that they're sought in this particular way. And so anyway, that's a slight amendment to what you're talking about here. But I think that under the circumstances, the right kind of partner is the one who wants to—I mean, every religious community in the world that believes in an afterlife, they all believe—and again, I realize that this doesn't include you or many of our listeners—but what they all have in common is that they believe that marriage, the permanent romantic partnership, is an antenna to God. The Hindus believe this, the Muslims believe this, the Christians and Jews believe this. They all believe that it's an intention of God. Which is why most people have a vocation to marriage is because they want God and they're not going to understand God until they actually get married and especially until they have children. It's a divine thing, is what it comes down to. So therefore, in these religions, you have to look for somebody or allow yourself to be found by somebody who's going to walk you into heaven. Okay. Now, the secular version of this, even if you're an atheist: find the person who wants to help you become a better version of yourself.

Yeah. No, for sure. And again, if you believe in the metaphysics of this, then the right moment is a divine thing as well as the person is a divine thing. And so it folds up into being effectively the same solution, is the way that this works. But the whole point is that what you just said was you got to a particular point in your life and you allowed yourself to be found and you were. So when I'm talking to a lot of young men and women, which is, you know, my graduate students at HBS, a lot of young people that I talk to—I mean, I'm sort of the 28-year-old strive whisperer at this point in my career—that 'I can't find anybody.' No, no, no. You're not allowing yourself to be found. Let's talk about that. You're wandering around the forest. It's time for you to allow yourself to be sought.