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Gary Gallagher
Professor of History Emeritus, University of Virginia

Ulysses S. Grant vs Robert E. Lee: The generals of the Civil War | Gary Gallagher and Lex Fridman

📅 Aug 02, 2026 Lex Clips 9 MIN 71762 VIEWS 33 SEGMENTS · 2 SPEAKERS
Lex Fridman Podcast full episode:    • Gary Gallagher: American Civil War, Slaver...   Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/cv990... See below for guest bio, links, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. GUEST BIO: Gary Gallagher is a historian of the American Civil War. CONTACT LEX: Feedback - give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey AMA - submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama Hiring - join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring Other - other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/con...

What Gary Gallagher said

Written from the verified transcript and checked against it. Every figure links to the moment it was said.

Gary Gallagher described Ulysses S. Grant as a man who failed at farming, business, and peacetime soldiering before the Civil War revealed his genius. Grant exhibited willingness to break rules, take risks, and take responsibility, with a strong family life as his rock. His reputation as a butcher is unfair, as his casualties before meeting Lee were 37,000 versus Lee's 98,000. A study by Joe Glatthaar showed Lee's soldiers had a 73% chance of becoming a casualty. Alcohol never impaired Grant's war performance. Congress awarded him the rank of lieutenant general in March 1864, a rank only George Washington had held. Gallagher contrasted Grant and Lee: Grant managed the entire war effort as general-in-chief, while Lee commanded only an army until too late. Lee, an aristocratic Virginian devoted to Washington, slavery, and Virginia, chose Virginia over the Union, becoming the third-ranking Confederate officer. Gallagher also discussed radical Republican Thaddeus Stevens, known for harsh rhetoric and witty lines.

Key takeaways

  1. Grant's pre-Virginia casualties were 37,000 versus Lee's 98,000, making Lee the bloodiest general in US history.
  2. Lee's soldiers had a 73% casualty rate, per Joe Glatthaar's demographic study.
  3. Congress granted Grant the lieutenant general rank in March 1864, previously held only by George Washington.
  4. As general-in-chief, Grant managed the entire Union war effort while Lee never commanded more than an army.
  5. Lee chose Virginia over the Union, resigning his US commission to become head of Virginia's state forces.

Numbers and commitments

FigureWhat it refers toTypeAt
37,000 Grant's casualties before meeting Lee metric 1:30
98,000 Lee's casualties in the same period metric 1:30
73% Chance of becoming a casualty in Lee's army metric 2:10
March of 1864 Date Congress gave Grant lieutenant general rank timeline 3:04
350 lb Winfield Scott's weight other 6:37

Chapters

  1. 0:00Grant's background and character
  2. 1:30Grant's reputation as butcher
  3. 3:04Grant's promotion to lieutenant general
  4. 4:03Grant vs Lee command roles
  5. 4:59Lee's background and loyalty to Virginia
  6. 6:16Lee's military career and choice
  7. 7:30Thaddeus Stevens's radicalism
  8. 8:07Stevens's wit and anecdotes

Questions asked in this interview

1
  1. 4:34So, who was Robert E. Lee?
Interviewer 0:02 ↗
And let's talk about the two other figures which we'll return to time and time again: Ulysses S. Grant and Robert E. Lee. So, who was Grant?
Gary Gallagher 0:12 ↗
So, this is a man who failed at farming, failed at business, failed at his role in the peacetime army. Then, when the war came, the war revealed a genius. So, he'd known a lot of failure. He'd known a lot of setbacks. And his wartime record shows that he learned to deal with those things. He had a great, tremendous relationship with his wife, a very strong family life, a family he loved. I think that was the rock for him. But, during the war, what he exhibited was an absolute willingness to break rules, to take risks, to take responsibility for what he was doing, whether it was a success or a failure, and not to be cast down by things that didn't work. If something didn't work, he'd say, 'Okay, that didn't work. Now, let's do this.'
He very famously, when he got to Virginia in 1864 and took over the Army of the Potomac, he had all these subordinates who were saying, 'Well, what if General Lee does this? What if General Lee does that?' He finally said, 'Why don't we start worrying—let's not worry about what General Lee is going to do and let General Lee worry about what we are going to do.' I mean, he just had—he was unflappable under stress. He was the perfect person to end up heading the Union armies, and he and Lincoln—and Lincoln realized that. And he proved indispensable.
But, he has this reputation as a butcher, Grant the butcher. That's something that former Confederates and some Democrats in the North fastened on him. His preferred way of fighting wasn't just kind of slug it out. It's really interesting to compare his record in the war and Lee's record in the war before they wound up opposing each other in Virginia in a really bloody Overland Campaign. Grant's total casualties in all his great battles before they met were 37,000. Lee's were over 98,000 in the same period. The bloodiest general in US history by far in terms of how many of his men get shot is Robert E. Lee.
The most careful demographic study of any Civil War army is one done of Lee's army by a scholar named Joe Glatthaar, and Joe figured out that if you were a soldier in Robert E. Lee's army, you had a 73% chance of becoming a casualty. 73%. Grant's casualties get high when he runs into Robert E. Lee, just like everybody else. So, the butcher tag is completely unfair about Grant.
He's also known as a drunk, and people have gone back and forth on that, whether he just had a weakness, couldn't hold his alcohol very well, or was okay as long as his wife was around and he had a key staff officer to help him. The point is, alcohol never got in the way of anything Grant did during the war, and he had a superlative record of delivering victories when the United States needed them, and Lincoln figured that out.
And the absolute proof of his stature because of this is that in March of 1864, Congress decided to dust off the rank of three-star general, lieutenant general, and give it to Grant. The only person who had ever had that rank was George Washington. The man, George. I mean, he is the man. And so, they are saying, 'Okay, Grant, you get the rank the man had.' And that shows there's never been anyone else who got it. You're the first. And then he would also be the first to get a four-star rank in the United States Army. There couldn't be a better indication of his stature than that he got Washington's rank. Winfield Scott had had it by brevet. Grant got the actual rank.
So, in part, the Grant the Butcher label was from the Overland Campaign that we'll talk about.
Interviewer 3:54 ↗
From the Overland Campaign. It's the military decisions made there. Many would argue that those are critically important for the success of the war.
Gary Gallagher 4:03 ↗
Yes. He and Lee are often compared, but for the last year of the war, they're operating on—it's not apples to apples because Grant is general-in-chief and is managing the entire war effort. He's managing what Sherman's doing and what Sheridan's doing and what Nathaniel Banks. Lee is an army commander. He can recommend things to Jefferson Davis, but he never commands more than an army. And so, he never operates at the level that Grant did. Very late in the war, he was made general-in-chief when it was so late that it didn't matter.
Interviewer 4:34 ↗
So, who was Robert E. Lee? In April 1861, Lee was offered command of the Union Army.
Gary Gallagher 4:41 ↗
He was.
Interviewer 4:42 ↗
And chose Virginia instead.
Gary Gallagher 4:44 ↗
He did.
Interviewer 4:45 ↗
What was he actually choosing in that decision? Was he choosing home? Was he choosing honor? Was he choosing slavery? And maybe just zooming out, what do we need to understand in the early steps about Robert E. Lee? Who was the man?
Gary Gallagher 4:59 ↗
Well, Lee is sort of the antithesis of Grant in some ways. Lee is from an aristocratic family. Grant was from a solidly middle-class family. Lee's from an aristocratic family at the very top of the Virginia aristocracy. The Lees are all—he has uncles who were prominent, two signed the Declaration of Independence. His father was a famous commander under George Washington. His father's the one who said that Washington was first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen. That's Lee's father, who was a later prominent Virginia politician. Lee's idol is George Washington.
He patterns himself on Washington. He differs from him in some ways, but he patterns himself on Washington. He considered Washington the most admirable person in United States history. And then, of course, he almost undoes the work that George Washington put in place during the American Revolution. He chose Virginia. He didn't leave—he didn't resign his commission in the United States Army to go with the Confederacy. He resigned his commission in the United States Army to go to Virginia, which wasn't in the Confederacy yet, become the head of state forces in Virginia. But then when Virginia went into the Confederacy, he took his Confederate commission and ended up as the third-ranking officer in Confederate service.
And he makes an easy transition to a Confederate loyalty. I think it's his loyalty to Virginia and what that means. That means his family, and of course that means slavery. That's part of what that loyalty is. He's devoted to the slave-holding South as well as to Virginia. Virginia's a subset of that. All of that is in one bundle with Lee.
But he also had been an ardent US nationalist earlier in his career. He was a very successful military officer. Winfield Scott thought he was the greatest soldier in the army, and Scott—he probably really thought, except for me. But Scott is a great soldier that people don't remember that way because he became a kind of Jabba the Hutt figure by the time of the Civil War. He's enormous, weighs 350 lb, has to be winched onto his horse. But he was a very smart guy, and he thought very highly of Lee. Lee was a superb soldier as he would show during the war. But he's on the wrong side.
Interviewer 7:13 ↗
Maybe just to throw in a few more characters, I do think the folks on both sides that are of the more radical persuasion are quite interesting. Somebody you spoke about, I'm not sure where, I think it might have been in your lecture series about Thaddeus Stevens.
Gary Gallagher 7:28 ↗
Ah, I know him.

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Cite this transcript

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APA

Gallagher, G. (2026, August 2). Ulysses S. Grant vs Robert E. Lee: The generals of the Civil War | Gary Gallagher and Lex Fridman [Interview transcript]. Lex Clips. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3012211/

MLA

Gary Gallagher. "Ulysses S. Grant vs Robert E. Lee: The generals of the Civil War | Gary Gallagher and Lex Fridman." Lex Clips, 2 Aug. 2026. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3012211/.

BibTeX
@misc{gallagher2026_3012211,
  author       = {Gary Gallagher},
  title        = {Ulysses S. Grant vs Robert E. Lee: The generals of the Civil War | Gary Gallagher and Lex Fridman},
  howpublished = {Interview transcript, Lex Clips. CEOInterviews.AI},
  year         = {2026},
  month        = {aug},
  url          = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3012211/},
  note         = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}