Hey gang, you know what time it is. I'll tell you, 'cause you're not answering immediately. It's PetaPixel podcast time, gang. I feel dirty. Who's excited?
The ASMR level of your distance to the mic there was frightening.
What kind of who are disappointed with my intro? Are Chris Niccolls, yeah, and Jaren.
Hi, hi, hi. Uh, guess what, guys? We got a really cool episode because Dave Imel, who I've known like through social media circles for a long time but never actually had the chance to talk to, is going to join our show and we're going to talk about the Sigma BF because a lot of people were very excited, like, 'I got to get that thing right now.' And Chris, if you've seen his video, has other feelings. So, uh, there will be a debate. I was proposing that it was going to be the Sigma BF standing for Big Fight, but it was actually quite civil, but still a great talk. So get ready for that coming later in the episode.
Guys, always like to kick this off by asking a little question so our audience can get to know you better. And sometimes I have carefully prepared things that I structure days in advance and, you know, make sure that it's the most compelling question for that week. This time I threw this together at the last second. Hey guys, what's your favorite celebrity Dave or David?
Oh my god. Oh, weird. I'm going to go first, uh, while you guys ponder that. Uh, I'm going to go with David Cross.
Uh, I first came across him on Arrested Development and was like, is this the funniest human who's ever lived playing Tobias Fünke? Then discovered Mr. Show, which to this day is my favorite sketch comedy show. I know that is a contentious take. Um, no, it's a great show, but, uh, David Cross rules. And, uh, it's a shame that his Netflix, uh, with Bob and David kind of returned to Mr. Show comedy didn't quite take, but, uh, love David Cross.
I'm going to go with Canadian patriotism. Jaren, do you want to go next?
Well, I was just going to say he took the one I was going to do, but I was going to add some flavor to it.
Oh, add some flavor to it.
My roommate and a former PhotoFlex coworker back when I was first, you know, out of college, his name was David Cross.
Oh, that must have been annoying.
Uh, yeah, maybe. I think that was back when Arrested Development was like still airing, so maybe, yeah. Well, no one was watching it back then anyways, so got away scot-free. It's like five years later when it popped up on Netflix and everyone found it, then he was in demand. That's all I got. You go ahead, Chris.
Oh, I'm going to be incredibly patriotic to my home nation because that's very important right now, and I'm going to go with Dave Foley, another comedian. Dave Foley is, is a classic. Kids in the Hall, I grew up with that. Um, you know, such a great show and, and, and just a wonderful piece of Canadiana. And, you know, and I mean, he, he's had success through many different things, but Kids in the Hall is what I'm going to remember him for. And of course, it brings me back to 'These Are the Daves I Know, I Know These Are the Daves I Know,' which is a great skit. You should definitely watch it if you haven't already.
Uh, Ghost was great. That was, that was certainly something. Uh, let's, uh, well, you know what, we've got some news to cover. Got some new Apple products, got some information we got out of Canon while we were at CP+ that we published. So let's, uh, let's jump into that next.
You know, we don't always have a sponsor on the PetaPixel podcast, but that sponsor might actually be you. Perhaps if you were to join the PetaPixel membership program, you would be personally responsible for keeping this podcast going. It is a screaming deal at just $3 a month or $30 a year. You get to directly support what we do here, but that is not all. It's not just you're tossing money into the void. You get stuff too. You get discounts on special partners like $15 off a purchase at the Moment store, anything at the Moment store. And by the way, Moment sells things that aren't just like camera smartphone cases. They sell actual products there, like the X100VI, for example. They're a dealer.
What? Yeah, I know. You get 25%.
Yeah, if you can, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're out there, I think. Maybe we'll see. Uh, the other thing you can do is get 25% off our merch store. So when Jordan, who will talk about his favorite shirt that he designed for us, he'll, we'll talk about that later in the episode actually, 'cause there's been a question about it. You can get that for 25% off if you're a PetaPixel member. But even more, you can also get our access to our exclusive sample galleries where you can download raw files. Right, Chris?
Well, I mean, so this is something that people have been asking for, and so we listened, right? And so yes, PetaPixel members have access to sample galleries on any full production camera gear that we review. Um, yeah, there's raw files for you to download, there's test charts for you to look at, you can pixel peep. So that was something a lot of people were asking for, and now we are offering it. Um, as well, I want to say actually at the Moment store, not a lot of people might be familiar with it, but I've actually used quite a bit of stuff. Their filter case is one of the best things ever. I use it all the time. Uh, I like the vertical way that it holds filters. I like the fact that they're all stacked in there very secure. Um, and, uh, I, I like the zipper as opposed to like a fold-out style because it really keeps everything secure. So definitely check that out. They've got really nice smartphone mounts and accessories you might like. They have cool filters. I mean, they've got black diffusion filters, they've got, um, gold color filters, they've got all sorts of NDs and stuff like that, polarizers. Um, seems like really good stuff. So you definitely should check that out. And, uh, yeah, yeah, excellent gear. So to get a little bit of discount there, that's always nice to have, and that basically pays for half your membership for a year right there. So it's really not a lot of money.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm wearing a black shirt with nothing on it 'cause I can barely afford like letters and images on my clothing. So, uh, any money that you can kick towards PetaPixel membership could really help me to have less generic and bland clothing. So thank you so much.
Oh my, good for your future sponsorship.
Well, that's, uh, the link to... my brain is all scrambled because I don't know how to talk after that. Jordan goes the UNICEF route. Jeez. Uh, link in the description.
Look at this influencer. Look how, look, for, for the price of a cup of coffee a day, you could help this influencer buy... Arms of an Angel playing in the background.
Yeah, get some Sarah McLachlan on there. Like, yeah, going to be... jeez.
It's an interesting tactic to go with, with the, the pity, but, uh, tried, you both tried the rational, so I chose to go in another direction.
Uh, if, if, yeah, if the rational doesn't work and you only respond to the pity, you know, both of you, anyone that type of person can find a link in the description below to join a PetaPixel membership. Uh, we really appreciate the support. And with that, let's start talking about the news. So last week Apple announced some new computers, both a Mac Studio and a MacBook Air.
Opposite ends of the spectrum.
Yeah, the Macs. Now wait a minute, Jaren, sorry, is this the Mac Studio or is this a Sigma BF? Can you explain it to me? The photo looks the same.
I don't know, because the Mac Studio doesn't look quite as shiny.
Oh, okay. It's a little brushed.
I see a USB port. I mean, I see things.
They do on the aluminum, like a little textured thing. It's adorable. It's really adorable. Tell me why I want to buy this.
Well, I have a Mac Studio. I'm using it right now, down right here. I'm touching it. You can't see it, but I will actually say these edges are as sharp as a BF. So don't, don't land this on your forehead.
Put that on the marketing.
Yeah, well, okay. Don't, don't rub this on your skin.
Pulling us back to the actual topic at hand here. So the, the Mac Studio is now equipped with the M3 Ultra chip or an M4 Max. Uh, I did some benchmarking on the M4 Max while Jeremy Gray did benchmarking on the M3 Ultra. We have the results, uh, on petapixel.com. You can see those in the link in the description below. But that was, in short, yeah, we fully reviewed both products. Great website, MacBook Air. You should get a membership. It should help support what we do here. Anyway, the, uh, the MacBook Air is an interesting product because it is good, but you can tell it's thermal throttling because it doesn't have a fan. So some performance metrics were all over the place on repeat runs. Like we would do a Photoshop test, for example, and it would be like a certain score comes out, and then we'd like fully let it cool down and then run it again, and the score is like slightly different. Uh, that means that it's the Lightroom benching that we do did particularly poorly because we are stressing the heck out of these machines when we do that. Uh, and so the, the, the thermal throttling is noticeable, but I think if you're like Chris, I was talking to, to Jeremy about this. Chris loves the iPad, and I think what he loves about the iPad is the portability and the ease of use, and just like the screen's really nice. So the only thing you're really giving up...
Yeah. So the operating system, if that's your problem, I feel like the product that matches that aesthetic the most, yeah, is the Air series. The only thing I will say though is the screen is not nearly as good. So, it's up, like if you really care about that display, I think the MacBook Pro is still a better choice. Um, so I don't know, but I feel like the Air is, is a product for you, Chris. I think you would actually like it, although you, you keep trying to touch the screen.
But yeah, I keep trying to touch the screen, which drives me crazy, 'cause then you get so mad at me, like, don't put fingerprints on my screen. I had my, my laptop open, you're like, 'Here, what's this? Let's, let's go here,' and just like wiped your finger across my MacBook.
Or just make MacBook touchscreen. Okay, why not? Um, anything toddler-proof is good.
Yeah, so I find it funny you guys gave me such a hard time for my gaming PCs for the longest time having massive fans to avoid thermal throttling, and now I... what do you do? Do you put like a desktop fan on your actual desktop and just aim it at the Air?
We just don't use these. Uh, we use computers with very quiet fans.
Does the Air require air to actually function at maximum capacity? You... it can't? Oh my God.
Anyway, the, the... does it get hot AF? Like, do, speaking of like fans, the, the Studio series, it does have a fan, but in all of our benchmarking where we were really pushing these things to the max through like DaVinci Resolve, Premiere, Photoshop, and Lightroom, uh, Jeremy and I, the M4 Max, we, yes, we could not hear it. Uh, so here's, here's a legit question. It can spin up, but we did not hear it during that testing.
The Studio looks super adorable. Um, I think it would be like a great computer for my wife to use. And like, they're powerful as I understand, right? Like, so would I want to go M3 Ultra? Would I want to go M4 Max? What, what would be the best option? 'Cause I'm a cheap MF.
So the Ultra is extremely expensive. It's like double the price of the M4 Max. And in our testing, if you are doing a lot of video editing and a lot of rendering and you're shooting in 4K or 8K, the Ultra is where you're going to want to go. Okay, but Chris, for you, the stuff that I know you do and what your family does, uh, I even think the M4 Max is more power than even you need. Uh, I would say the M4 Pro, which is in the Mac Mini, is probably better. Not only is it way cheaper, it's smaller, uh, and I think it's, it's exactly what your type of person would need. But if you're like a, like a, like a working photographer and you're in Lightroom a lot, like you're a wedding photographer, uh, or you're a retoucher, M4 Max is extremely good. Uh, we actually have an interesting result this time too, because in Photoshop, M4 Max is outperforming M3 Ultra. And I think that's a Photoshop thing. I think Photoshop's optimization just is not there for as much horsepower as the Ultra has. The Max is just giving better results. So if you're like in Photoshop all the time and you want the best performing Photoshop machine that you can buy, Mac or PC, it's going to be the M4 Max.
Like, how many billions of dollars is that going to cost me?
It's only about, it's only 3500 for like a really good one. 3500. And this computer should last you between five and seven, ten years.
Still, it's pretty amazing that a PetaPixel membership at petapixel.com is a hundred times cheaper than that and would get you access to our sample galleries and discounts on our merchandise store and free swag at like, at the Moment store. That's really cool. I think that really puts in perspective...
That last one is not true at all. You just add... no, it gives you $15 off.
You used the word swag though, which is wrong.
Swag. Yeah, I'm sorry. Don't listen to Chris. He's trying very hard and I appreciate it, but, uh, I bet you Moment will send you free swag with your purchases. I bet that, uh, will segue us terribly into the next one, which is Chris and I sat down with Canon for a very short period of time. We only had about half an hour with Canon's executive.
Wish we could spend more time.
Yeah, seriously. We had more questions, but we ran out of time. Uh, I've only published a couple stories from it so far. I got more coming, but the first one that I think is worth pointing out because Chris was very disappointed to hear this is that Canon has no plans to make a high resolution version of its R1. In fact, it will not make alternate versions of a flagship ever again, or at least if this, as long as this, this team is running the company, they, they will not do that. It's not just that they have no plans. Like they were like, no, we will not do that. We don't want to do that. It's not like, oh, we haven't decided to do that. Like, no, we definitively do not want to do that. They're like, the R1 is a, is our flagship. That's our product. We don't want to have different.
So even from the days where you had S's and X's, they're like, no, that's anything like that not, not happen.
What's so baffling about this is they talked about it like there was no precedent for a high resolution flagship when that's something that they did up until like three generations ago on the 1D series. They're like, that's what R5 Mark II is for.
Which, fair enough. I mean, that's a great camera and I like the sensor, but it also, you know, everybody was always like, 'cause we asked him about this, like, oh, what about, what about 100 megapixel sensors? What about 60 megapixel sensors?
And they're like, no, no, no. The, the flagship is for like serious photographers doing sports, action, wildlife, journalism, like classic photographic pursuits for, you know, career pursuits. And then they're like, if you want to do landscape stuff, R5 Mark II. It's like, okay, well.
Also those guys, I mean, very, very nice, very gracious, um, super tall Japanese dudes.
I'm going to put the picture.
Is that their hiring requirement?
I don't know. These guys are tall by European standards. Like they are, they are mammoth men, uh, powerful, intelligent, gracious men.
Chris and I aren't tall. Let's, let's be clear there.
We are, we're tall for what we're... tall in Japan.
Yeah, we're, I see over all the heads in crowds in Japan. Jordan is so tall that he hits his head on things.
These men are Jordan height if not taller.
I, they not be in Japan, I think.
I don't know. I think, I think, I think they're taller than Jordan maybe.
Everyone who's passable when I have to lift my chin, everyone's the same height at that point to my mind, but that's how I look at all the rest of you as well.
They're tall. They must, it must be kind of fun to look down at us like this, like, like we must look like bobbleheads to you, 'cause it's just, yeah, not even just physically.
Oh, at, at any rate, uh, I'll put that picture of us next to these, these, uh, Canon executives who were very, very nice. We enjoyed talking with them. They were very friendly. They were very candid.
They were very candid. I learned a lot. 'I'm camera's not coming,' so that's interesting. Like, you know, and, and it's too bad because the R1 is a really nice handling camera. The R3 is a really nice handling camera. That all being said, this is still a corporation and what they say today, they might not say tomorrow. So let's just see what happens.
So we did, we asked... wait, I'm sorry, go ahead.
No, no, 'cause this, we've got more to talk about with Canon, right?
Yeah, yeah. So one of the other things we asked them about was related to compact cameras because the factory that was responsible primarily for making PowerShots, they shut down several years ago because the market disappeared. Well, we asked them like, well, your cameras, compacts, those are back, they're hot.
And they're like, yeah, and they are cautiously ramping up production now.
Yeah, and cautiously is the, is the thing here because they sort of don't want to have the problem they had before, which was where they were losing gobs of money because there was no demand.
Yeah, but they're, they're also recognizing they can't make enough to meet demand now, so that's a problem and they want to solve that obviously. But they're also coming out with a new compact camera. I wouldn't call it a point and shoot, but certainly it will fill some of that demand.
But I mean, they have announced the V1, right, as their new PowerShot camera under the PowerShot line.
Well, you guys were talking to the executives. I was trying to find this thing in the booth and that was their announcement for this show. It's like, Canon is dropping a V1. This thing was buried and when I did find it, it didn't even have a battery in it, the one that we had.
So when we were talking with them about this...
Well, I, I asked... you should have done the vertical video.
Should have. Well, that would have been very rude because they were talking and I couldn't take my camera.
And you only had half an hour, right? There was no battery in that one either, so I'm wondering if they're even functional yet. They may just be cases, but they felt like they were complete. They, they handle nice. It's heavier than I was expecting. My wife said she did use one. They had a battery in the one when she was there. They might have just been charging it when I walked by. But, uh, yeah, it feels great. I think it's actually a pretty compelling, um, not RX1, RX10, what's the ZV1 competitor.
Um, except that in between the ZV1 and this, the Blackmagic Pocket 3 came out and that's going to put a real dent in this thing's...
Uh, yes, it's putting a dent in everybody's things.
Yeah, yeah, it's like wearing a BF around a train station. It's just going to get messed up.
Jesus, keep talking about the V1. You're going to get them excited for this interview.
Our chat, I guess. It's not really an interview, it's a talk. Um, I just looking at this now, I'm just reminded that it has a tally lamp on it, which I like that's there. So yeah, should all have... we'll see. But yeah, they're going to try, Canon's going to try and be able to fill demand for the cameras they're currently selling, like the G7X as well as the V1, without I don't think building another factory. I'm curious how they're going to manage that.
Uh, I don't know where they're going to make it.
Interesting. It'll be made out of R100 parts.
Let's say you have a DJI Pocket 3 and you're like, this is not nearly causing me the back pain that I was hoping for. Then you could get yourself a DJI Ronin 4D.
And actually, Jordan, I mean, we played with this.
Oh, hold on. So you, you meant to say DJI, Jordan. You said Blackmagic. I was very confused.
Yes, I, oh, okay, yes, I meant the DJI Pocket.
I was not aware of a Blackmagic Pocket 3. That is a new product. I remember the Blackmagic Pocket and that's not, that's not with the Pocket 3, DJI.
So on that note, DJI has another, they have a full-size camera that doesn't fit in your pocket and it's called the 4D, which you did review at one point, Jordan.
Well, now Viltrox announced a series of six autofocusing prime lenses designed...
Autofocus? Yeah, this is wild. Like a whole lineup of lenses in one go.
Well, and I felt very creatively stifled with the existing lenses. Like, yes, you can adapt things to it, but it takes forever for you to adjust the follow focus or the LiDAR to work properly doing that. Um, so you wound up generally using the native lenses, which all maxed out at 2.8 maximum apertures, which makes perfect sense for the Inspire, and because it's the exact same lens mount as the Inspire 3 as well, uh, or the Inspire 2 in crop mode. Uh, so that's I think why they went with those lenses. But when I was using the 4D, trying to use it for like filmmaking, I don't know if you remember the greatest intro we ever shot was shot at night on a Ronin 4D, um, where we were doing the like, 'Canon's lenses, they don't want you to have video,' and we were fighting. Like that was, we were on second gain step and really pushing it using light outdoors. Uh, so I was, I, I would love to have a brighter lens and have the creative option of shallower depth of field. So it's really cool that there is now that with full autofocus. So the LiDAR system is going to function properly with that. Um, because I hear from everyone like, whatever, it's, you just drop another adapted lens mount on it and away you go. But I, I think Chris remembers it was like half an hour for us to calibrate lenses to work properly with that, and even then they didn't work perfectly. So to just be able to go like, click, go, I think that's the beauty of the Ronin 4D system to start with is that like very quick and easy ability to have new creative choices. So this is awesome and I think it's really cool to see Viltrox slip right into this. Um, all across the board, 16, 24, 28, 35, 50, and 85.
What do, 320 to 470 G is the range roughly speaking?
I mean, it's, so they're all fairly stupid affordable.
Yeah, stupid affordable. It looks like the 24, 28, 35, and 50 are all almost exactly the same size, while the 16 and 85 are slightly taller.
Look, the biggest, I think.
And so the whole set's like 3500 bucks.
That for six lenses, that's pretty good.
Pretty good. That's insane.
Yeah, so if you're a serious 4D shooter, would certainly look at this. And, and I'm going to go ahead and say this too. This is just conjecture, but of all the companies that we see out of, out of China, you know, making a lot of lenses right there, there's a lot of manufacturers. Viltrox seems to be pushing really hard and I think, you know, they're, they're making a lot of waves. They've got like this crazy new like $100,000 lens and stuff like, they're doing weird stuff, but I think they're really making a push for really good autofocusing motors, getting into a lot of mounts. I think we're going to see a lot from Viltrox.
Dude, it seems like they release a lens every 45 seconds. Like I think they're trying to be the, like the next Sigma to be honest.
I, I am curious 'cause they didn't specify on this if these lenses will like wreck your gimbal if you drop them on an Inspire 3 'cause they're very light. So I almost wonder if the gimbal would be able to compensate for that and then have like a super low light Inspire 3 setup where you could do like some nighttime city work and stuff. Could be a really cool creative option if it doesn't break your gimbal.
So is very similar to the 4D. I don't think it's that different. So if it works on the 4D, I would, I would be willing to try it.
I mean, the, the way that the Inspire works, if it doesn't, if the weight's not right, it's just going to tell you that it's not going to, it's going to shut it down. So it's not like you have to worry about it like falling into a river or something. Uh, so someone with an Inspire, find out for us, report back.
Pre-order this $3,000 set of lenses and report back.
All right, last story of the week. This is just on here because Chris is just going to be so pleased about this. Thaio Thok.
Actually, I'm sorry, I was corrected that, that it is called Thok. I want to say Thaio. I think it sounds better, but it's...
You corrected it was Thok.
I thought it was the other way around. I had to go look and look at my original reporting of this and realize that I indeed did say that it was Thaio back then because they told me it was pronounced Thaio, but I for some reason started listening to you, I guess.
Uh, Thok is moving away from that focus locking switch that you despise.
That I despise, want to go on record as well.
Yeah, I, I, I also don't like it very much. So I've been shooting with a lot of their, uh, two of their lenses a lot recently, working on a review of them. Um, and even this 50 right here, that's the picture in this news article, um, I don't like it and I'm glad to see it go. It is being replaced on almost all of their lenses in like, like next iterations of it and being, uh, replaced with, uh, like for example on the, uh, like it's being replaced like a thumb movement little thing, little tab instead, which I think is a better use of space. Or on like the 75, which by the way, I got confirmation will be arriving tomorrow, Chris, so I will have it in my hot little hands. You don't get to have it first. I do.
That doesn't have the locking switch on it either. The, the Eureka 50 apparently will continue to have it, which is the only lens that I actually don't mind it that much on.
Stop it. It's a terrible idea. It's garbage. Don't even try to make it justify it.
There are some people who very much like this thing.
No, they're wrong. So what they're going to do now is they're going to go to like a crescent-shaped manual focusing assist, like you'd find on a lot of Leica lenses, M-series lenses.
Um, the, the locking switch, so just to give context for people that might not know, it'll automatically engage if you move this lens to infinity focus and it'll lock it there, right? And so the idea is then if you want to then do any focusing, you have to remember to push this button down, unlock it out of the mount, do your focusing, and if you happen to go back to infinity, it's just going to auto lock again, which is very irritating, very frustrating. I like the way it looks. I like the old school cachet of it, the vintage cachet of it. What I think they should have done is not remove it, but simply make the top thing a threaded locking collar so that you can...
Yeah, unscrew it so that it's, it's going to automatically lock or just screw it down so that it doesn't engage. That would have solved the problem and made everybody happy. But instead they decided, well, like, just let's get rid of the whole thing altogether. So I'm still not happy.
I'm sorry, they threw out the baby with the bathwater, you're saying.
Well, I just, I mean, that was, I don't know, fine. I mean, look, I'd rather, I'd rather not have it at all than have the current system. But I think they could have just put a locking switch on it and then like a, just turn the knob and then you wouldn't, uh, you'd get the best of both worlds. But what do I know?
I emailed them when I first saw that. I was like, is this right? And they were like, yep.
Yeah, what our conversation.
Yeah, yeah, 'cause we thought something must be broken at first. But anyways, we're not alone. I mean, other than some strange people that do like it, we're not alone.
So hey, in the comments on PetaPixel, there are people saying that it's your fault for not getting it.
So yeah, I guess so. I mean, if you, if you're constantly pulling down on the dial like, well, it's not even a dial, if you're constantly pulling down on the button while focusing as a habit, I guess you wouldn't have any issues, but like, I'm not doing that.
You don't always grab these lenses by that little knob. It's silly.
So anyways, by way, a bit of a preview for those listening, uh, that 50mm f2 Eureka lens, I like it a lot. I like this lens a lot. There, uh, I'm very pleased with it. Unfortunately, like my best roll of, uh, samples that I shot on my, on my R2A, my Bessa, uh, I used a roll of film that Chris gave me that we're testing for a future video. Um, and it's a, it's, it's a brand called Jinai.
Shinai, yeah, that had a gigantic light leak through the entire roll of film. Like, I don't know what happened, but it's just like, it look, you know, have you ever seen one of someone take a long exposure using like a tin can? So they leave it out there for years and it's got that big parabola of the sun. That's what it looks like on all of my pictures, including the really cute one I got of you, Jordan, and your wife in the, the, the cutout.
H, I know. That picture is, I guess, anyway.
But can you imagine if it was color film though? Then it would be like this huge yellow orange blasted streak across. It'd be super distracting, uh, instead of just the white mess.
Uh, looks like someone spilled milk all over the photo.
Uh, okay, sure, yeah, yeah, whatever. But I, it makes me a little bit, uh, it, it, it fills me with dread on, on what other results we're going to get with this film.
Part the, the worst thing is knowing that I had good pictures and they're just borked and it's...
I'm going to endeavor to take the worst photos for these, uh, lens tests.
The other tests come so deflating 'cause now it's like I don't have enough samples for my review. I got to go take more.
Uh, it's okay. It's not your fault. It's not your fault, Jinai.
Anyway, let's get on to the main story today where we're going to welcome David Imel, who's going to talk to Chris about why the BF might be popular and why Chris might be wrong, or maybe Chris is right about...
