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Francis Fukuyama
Senior Fellow, Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies, Stanford University

Rubio is cribbing from my book #francisfukuyama

📅 Oct 12, 2026 Frankly Fukuyama 10 MIN 11731 VIEWS 14 SEGMENTS · 1 SPEAKERS
In a speech on Oct. 7 in Athens, Secretary of State Marco Rubio gave a speech arguing that the essence of Western civilzation was thymos, a Greek word for spiritedness or pride that denotes the human desire for recognition. He uses this word as if thymos was an unambiguously positive quality, disregarding the fact that it is at the root of dictatorship, tyranny, and domination. I speak about this both in my 1992 book The End of History and the Last Man, as well as in my just published memoir In the Realm of the Last Man: https://www.amazon.com/Realm-Last-Man... For the blog post on which...

What Francis Fukuyama said

Written from the verified transcript and checked against it. Every figure links to the moment it was said.

Francis Fukuyama critiques Secretary of State Marco Rubio's October 7 speech at the Pnyx in Athens, arguing that Rubio's understanding of thumos is deficient. Fukuyama explains that thumos, the desire for recognition, is central to politics, as noted by Hegel and Kojève, and that it can be both constructive and destructive. He introduces his concepts of isothymia (desire for equal recognition) and megalothymia (desire for superiority), noting that megalothymia can lead to excellence or tyranny. He criticizes Donald Trump as an example of unconstrained megalothymia, citing his admiration for authoritarian rulers. Fukuyama also accuses Rubio of twisting reality to please Trump, ignoring the administration's cuts to scientific research and Trump's desire to take Greenland. He concludes by urging Rubio to remember the principle of human equality from the Declaration of Independence.

Key takeaways

  1. Rubio's speech at the Pnyx on October 7 misuses thumos, lacking the nuance of Fukuyama's 1992 book.
  2. Megalothymia can drive both progress and tyranny, as seen in leaders like Lincoln and Hitler.
  3. Trump exemplifies unconstrained megalothymia, seeking recognition from anyone and admiring authoritarian rulers.
  4. Rubio's praise of Western values conflicts with administration actions like cutting science funding and pursuing Greenland.
  5. Fukuyama urges a focus on human equality, not great individuals, as the basis of American foreign policy.

Numbers and commitments

FigureWhat it refers toTypeAt
October 7 Date of Rubio's speech at the Pnyx timeline 0:06
1992 Year Fukuyama published The End of History and the Last Man timeline 2:05

Chapters

  1. 0:00Rubio's speech on thumos
  2. 0:36Thumos in Western civilization
  3. 2:49Hegel and Kojève on recognition
  4. 4:19Isothymia and megalothymia
  5. 6:28Trump as unconstrained megalothymia
  6. 7:55Rubio's contradictions
  7. 8:48Lessons from history and equality
Francis Fukuyama 0:06 ↗
Secretary of State Marco Rubio gave a speech at the Pnyx in Athens on October 7th. This is a place just below the Parthenon on the Acropolis that I spoke at a few years ago. It sounds as if one of his speechwriters has been reading my books, because at the heart of his address he talks about thumos, which he transliterates with a U instead of a Y. He speaks of thumos as the core value of Western civilization.
This is correct in some fashion, but Rubio's understanding of the idea, I think, is very deficient. The Secretary of State says the following, quote: "For the Greeks of antiquity, the pursuit of excellence was the very principle of man's existence. They organized all of civic life around contest, ambition, competition, in philosophy and poetry, in sculpture and drama, in athletics, in art, in war, and in statecraft. The classical Greek city was an arena for great men to test and prove themselves, to hone their potential through perpetual struggle, to be the best, the strongest, the most beautiful, straining to inch ever closer to perfection."
He continues, "Now I know that to modern ears what I just described, this way of life, may sound odd. It may even sound cruel. The idea of many ideologies in our time has frankly become a world of perfect safety, devoid of risk or failure, with neither the glory of victory nor the shame of defeat. The ancient Greek city-states were filled with intense passion and rivalry and faction and conflict. But from that constant struggle for distinction, from that came the great flowering of art and philosophy and political and intellectual energy that would transform a collective of Mediterranean cities into the birthplace of the greatest civilization in the world."
"The thumos, as the ancient Greeks called it, the fire of passion, strength, courage, and pride, is at the heart of great civilization. And without it, without it, nations lose their will to fight, the will to strive, the will to survive." Thus spoke our Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. Now, I spoke of thumos at some length back in 1992 in my book, The End of History and the Last Man, and I've returned to it in my memoir, In the Realm of the Last Man. Thumos, meaning pride, spiritedness, the desire for recognition, is indeed important for Western civilization.
But Rubio has a very attenuated understanding of it and does not see how it is a double-edged sword. Thumos is at the core not just of Western civilization, but as Hegel and his interpreter Alexander Kojève noted, of politics as a whole. According to Kojève, the first bloody battle between early human beings was driven by the desire for dominance and recognition, by a willingness to risk one's life. The struggle for dominance leads to a society of masters and slaves in which neither party is fully satisfied. The slave for obvious reasons, but the master as well, because he is recognized by someone who is only a slave, only a partial human being.
The solution to this problem unfolds only over historical time with the emergence of a society based on mutual and equal recognition of all human beings. Such a society was articulated for the first time in the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen in the French Revolution, as well as in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. Both rest on a fundamental Christian insight: the universal equality of all human beings under God. Liberal societies recognize that equality of dignity by granting and protecting basic human rights.
In the 1992 book, I created two neologisms: isothymia and megalothymia. Isothymia is the desire for equal recognition that is fundamentally at the base of any modern democracy. Human beings universally feel resentful and angry when they are disrespected, when their fundamental dignity is held to be lower than that of another group or an individual. Today's polarized politics is driven by isothymia: left-wing identity politics by the demand of marginalized groups for equal recognition, and an emerging right-wing version based on a narrative of white or Christian victimization.
Megalothymia, by contrast, is Janus-faced. It can be the source either of human progress or of the greatest crimes and tyrannies human societies have had to endure. Secretary Rubio is correct that the striving to be better than other people is the source of all human excellences in the arts, in sports, in the economy, or in politics. But the will to be better than other people can lead to domination, tyranny, and unspeakable crimes. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Winston Churchill were clearly driven by megalothymia. But so were Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.
Thumos thus represents a conundrum for democracies. The equal rights protected by a liberal state rest on isothymia, the demand for the equal recognition of human dignity. But a successful society also needs megalothymia for all the reasons that Rubio outlines. It needs risk-takers, innovators, and brave citizens willing to fight on behalf of their fellows. The problem is, first, distinguishing between the good and bad forms of megalothymia, and second, channeling this passion into activities that benefit the broader society.
Now, I wrote about Donald Trump back in 1992 in The End of History and the Last Man. I was looking for positive outlets for megalothymia, and I argued that a capitalist economy would bleed off the desire for dominance and channel it into business. This is what I was thinking that Donald Trump was up to. Little did I realize that some decades later, Donald Trump would not be content with being rich, but would want political power as well, which lands us in our current would-be authoritarian situation.
Trump is a perfect example of unconstrained megalothymia. He cannot distinguish between good and bad attributes, the good ones that deserve recognition and the bad ones that should be shunned. Nor does he care about the quality of judgment of those recognizing him. He'll just accept recognition by anybody. He wants his face to be carved into Mount Rushmore as one of the greatest American presidents, but also seeks pettier acclaim like the Nobel Peace Prize or his name on the Kennedy Center. He recently showed Maggie Haberman a list of history's most powerful rulers whom he clearly admired and wished to be part of. This list included Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Napoleon, Mao, Stalin, and not a single democratic statesman.
Secretary Rubio's desire to stay on his boss's good side leads him to twist reality like a pretzel. He speaks about an alliance between the US and Europe based on shared values, gliding over a president who clearly admires authoritarian rulers like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping far more than those of other democratic countries. Rubio talks about the wonders of science and technology created by Western civilization, even as his administration is cutting funding for scientific research across the board. Rubio celebrates the agreement with Denmark over Greenland without mentioning Trump's desire to grab it away from Denmark. Secretary Rubio praises thumos without regard to the ends to which it is directed.
He would do well to remember that it was an excess of megalothymia that led Alcibiades and the Athenians into the disastrous Sicilian expedition, which Thucydides explains was the beginning of their defeat in the Peloponnesian War. The secretary should also focus a bit on the lines from the Declaration of Independence that say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." It is to this principle of human equality, and not the celebration of great individuals, that has underlined a lot of American foreign policy over the decades. It is to this principle that the founding fathers, as well as many subsequent generations of Americans, vowed to sacrifice their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.
Thanks very much for listening. If you like the video, please subscribe to the Frankly Fukuyama YouTube channel, and you can read a version of this video at American Purpose, which is part of the Persuasion family of online journals.

Cite this transcript

APA, MLA, BibTeX
APA

Fukuyama, F. (2026, October 12). Rubio is cribbing from my book #francisfukuyama [Interview transcript]. Frankly Fukuyama. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3048542/

MLA

Francis Fukuyama. "Rubio is cribbing from my book #francisfukuyama." Frankly Fukuyama, 12 Oct. 2026. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3048542/.

BibTeX
@misc{fukuyama2026_3048542,
  author       = {Francis Fukuyama},
  title        = {Rubio is cribbing from my book #francisfukuyama},
  howpublished = {Interview transcript, Frankly Fukuyama. CEOInterviews.AI},
  year         = {2026},
  month        = {oct},
  url          = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3048542/},
  note         = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}