I was so isolated and so inherently broken. I needed a life raft, even if it was covered in thorns.
Tim Ferriss is an author, investor, and master experimenter when it comes to treating mental illness in unconventional ways.
One of the more recent types of research that I funded with respect to psychedelics is actually looking at their potent anti-inflammatory effects.
If you've ever felt depressed and alone, this episode is for you.
I mean, the worst one for sure was in college because that's when I had a date on the calendar when I was going to commit suicide.
But he turned it around by staying curious and trying all sorts of things to make himself feel better.
Basically, stick a lozenge in your mouth. You do one day of stimulations and took my generalized anxiety from like an eight or nine out of 10 consistency to like a zero to one.
You are going to receive so much valuable advice from this episode. From small everyday things that will change your mindset, go outside and jump rope facing the sun for 60 seconds, to big takeaways on potent drugs and medicines.
First of all, if you don't feel pulled in a very meaningful way to do ayahuasca, do not do ayahuasca.
I like that you said that. Yeah, I agree. Number one, a lot of people view them as a magic pill.
Yes. I know you will come away from this conversation with practical tips on what to do if you're experiencing depression, mood swings, suicidal thoughts, or simply loneliness.
And there isn't a magic pill, but relationships might be the closest thing we've got.
Tim, I mean, this is pretty exciting for me because I've been on your podcast, I think, three times now.
But no, when I had the idea for No Magic Pill, you really were one of the top top dream guests for me. And the reason why is your vulnerability and openness to talk about, you know, depression and anxiety and some of these things that I, when you first started speaking about this, had not heard any kind of high performer talking about. And that really helped me on my journey because I think there's like this somewhat dark underbelly or price that sometimes we pay for being highly creative or having a lot of ambition. And unless it's talked about, you feel really alone when it's happening. And so the whole purpose of this podcast really is to meet people where they might be struggling. They might feel stuck. Um, they might be struggling with depression and where do they go? Because I didn't, I could, it was really hard for me to find resources when I was struggling so much. And so because you've talked about it so openly and you shared your journey, you know, with such, um, vulnerability, I was like, 'Okay, I definitely want to have Tim on the show.' So I'm glad that we're here. I want to thank you also for on, I think it was our first episode maybe, talking about the Hoffman process. I still probably get 15 handwritten letters a week just to my PO box because of that episode.
Every week. Every single week.
That's amazing. It's funny. I get tons of letters, too.
Well, um, I guess one where I'd like to start is a little bit what I was just alluding to, and that is, you know, high performers, people who are type A, um, who are, you know, going through periods of extreme creativity. Often we see a crash afterwards. Um, I very much experienced this after I built and sold Toms. I'm curious, why do you think that happens? And why has that maybe happened even for you?
I think there are a whole bunch of different forms it can take. From what I've seen, uh, certainly I pull from my personal experience, but also looking at my friends, many of whom are not public about what they go through. I think there are different species of, let's call it, depression. One is partially identity based. So you see this in Olympians after the Olympics. You see it in special operators after they retire from service and try to transition where they were top 1% or 5% whatever it is, very, very high achieving in a particular world, and then that is replaced by something very perhaps middle of the pack. Right? So, you take someone who's a famous Navy SEAL and now they're just an entry-level Remax salesperson and that is a very hard identity shift.
Do you think also there's a little bit of like a dopamine addiction?
I think there could be. What I've seen in that, I'll probably go a little further afield from the original question, but I'll add one more thing. I think that's over a very long term, if we're looking at say career shifts of that type. There's also another form which is more kind of project based, but it could be a startup. Let's just say if it's a venture-backed startup, doesn't have to be, but if someone's really sprinting, uh, in the same way that you might get physically sick after really pushing hard for a period of time, your body's like, 'Okay, we're going to hold off on getting sick until we get through this.' And then as soon as you take the accelerator off, you get sick. And I think similarly, the mind is not separate from the body, right? The brain and the body are all one closely integrated circuit. So I think there's a piece to that if you're burning the candle at both ends, which a lot of high performers are. Uh, and it actually relates to your follow-up question because when you're running in sixth gear all the time, it is a subconscious very effective tool for creating enough volume of activity that the stuff you're trying to keep locked in the basement stays locked in the basement or at least you drown it out. And then when you remove all that activity, uh-oh.
Right. Something knocks on the door.
That makes a lot of sense. And I think definitely even from my life, I think there's been times, especially at Toms when I was, you know, just going, going, going and having so much stimulation. And, you know, for me, I recognized that it was this just incessant need for external validation, you know, and not that I, you know, growing up never feeling like I was enough. And so, if I could just keep on getting the external validation, validation, validation, that stays in the basement. I mean, this is a great example of what I think happened. And then when I sold the company and I no longer had that innocence drug of the external validation, then I had to look at this core wound that I've been carrying.
Yeah. So really there's a couple reasons I guess then to recap is one is it just might be that, you know, when you take your foot off the accelerator just then your mind just like your body is like, hold on, we're just too taxed.
We have so much to talk to you about.
Yeah. Exactly. [laughter] By the way, if you have a lot of insomnia, that might be part of it, might be a contributing reason, right? If your brain's like, 'Oh, yeah, we've been waiting all day to talk to you.' It doesn't always mean capital T trauma, but...
Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. Well, with your, with the, you know, I've read in doing some prep that you've said you've had over 50 depressive episodes.
I mean, probably. Yeah. I mean, they were really frequent. So I'll, for people who are listening who might be struggling at the moment, with the understanding I'm not a doctor, don't play one on the internet, but growing up I had, god, I don't know what the exact number was, at least I would say like four to eight depressive episodes a year ranging from a few weeks to a few months. I mean, it was a very high percentage of my total lived experience. And I do have a bunch of thoughts on what contributed to that. But flash forward, and the reason I talked about people struggling, and it's taken a lot of trial and error, but there are actually really, really, really effective tools, um, and they're going to become more effective. But like I at this point and for the last, let's just call it, I'm kind of pulling a number out of my ass, but 5 to 10 years, certainly 5 years, the frequency is down to maybe once every two years for a few weeks. And those lived experiences are two different humans. I can't, I don't feel like I can overstate the difference between those two things.
Wow. And for someone who hasn't had a depressive episode or doesn't know if they're in one right now, what is the difference between just having a really shitty time with things and then actually like, okay, I've reached the point of a depressive episode that I need to get help, talk to someone or potentially try some of the tools that we'll talk about?
I'm not sure to be honest. As a non-psychiatrist, I don't think there is a very clear delineating line. What I would say is that if you're worried about it and you ask yourself, 'Do I need help?' you probably need help.
That's a great, I like that. And I would say that, I mean, we could certainly go into personal examples, but uh, if somebody hasn't experienced depression, it's very hard to talk to them about depression in the sense that this might sound funny, but it's like if someone has never had an orgasm and you're trying to explain it, it's like, it's kind of like an itch in your balls, but it's like a sneeze and then you're like, 'What?' So like depression, when people are like, 'Everything's great. Look at your life. You shouldn't be depressed.' You're like, 'I get that. That's the problem, is I still feel depressed even though I have the ability to zoom out and look at it.' Part of why it feels so hopeless to a lot of people is they're like, if I look at the balance sheet of my life, I know it's great compared to most of the world and yet I feel this way. Therefore, part of me is broken and will never be fixed. Therefore, what's the point? Right?
With, if you don't mind, I would be really curious, like of the depressive episodes, which was the worst for you? Like what did that feel like? Like take us there, man.
I mean, the worst one for sure was in college because that's when I had a date on the calendar when I was going to commit suicide. I mean, I had the entire plan spec'd out and I mean, it's a very long story. We can get into it, but like the reasons behind it in retrospect seem kind of ridiculous, but that's in a way the point. I think this is important for people to hear, right? And it related to this very odd situation where I was basically being threatened by my thesis advisor in college, and the thesis is worth a large percentage of your total departmental GPA for your entire time at school and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I say it now and it sounds ridiculous, right? But at the time I was so isolated and so felt so inherently broken because I looked at it and I'm like, I know this isn't a big deal and yet it feels like my life is over. Keep in mind this is after many dozens of depressive episodes. I'm like, do I want to live like this? No, I don't think so.
And you think it was cumulative all the years of these depressive episodes?
I think I at that point in a very dark place with social isolation, I think you look back. People do this for everything with confirmation bias. So, you're looking for the evidence that you're broken and this is never going to change. I mean, I knew exactly how I was going to do it. I did all this reading, like just how I apply myself with everything else. Like, I applied myself to figuring out how to go about it to try to make it look like an accident. That was key because I didn't want my parents or other people to blame themselves. So, had it all figured out and I had reserved or attempted to get a hold of a book at Firestone Library, which was my university's library, on assisted suicide. And it was out, like some poor bastard had already taken it out. And at that time, if this had happened today, I would be dead. And I'll tell you why. Because at this point in time, it would be an email or a notification, digital. It would go directly to me. At that time, they would mail a small postcard to your mailing address on file, which as a student would be on campus. I was off campus. And I had forgotten to update my address at the registrar from my home address where my parents lived.
Oh. So they got the postcard.
They got the postcard which is like, hey, your book on suicide just arrived. And my mom called me. And I lied. I didn't tell her the real reason. I was like, 'Oh, uh, you know, there's a friend at Rutgers. Don't worry about it. Like, he wanted it for a research project. It's not for me.' But that broke the spell. And I realized jig is up. I can no longer make it look like an accident. And I also realized just how, and this isn't a condemnation, but how inherently self-focused suicide is, right? You don't realize. And I wrote, I ended up, I mean, one of the most important things I've ever written is, um, I think it's just called Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide.
I read it before the interview. It's great. Highly recommend for people who are watching or listening, go to Tim's blog and this is really helpful.
Look at the comments. I mean, there are hundreds of people who pulled themselves out. Uh, because there are a few things you realize when you have, or you might have, when you go through the wakeup call that I had, which is if you commit suicide, you might relieve some pain for yourself. Maybe. Nobody knows what happens after lights are out. Number one. But number two, it would be as if you strapped a suicide vest full of explosives onto your body and walked into a room full of all the people you care about most and detonated. Like that is the psycho-emotional impact that you are going to have on those people for the rest of their lives.
Yeah. And when you think of your kids, if you have kids, that was for me, that was the number one thing.
Right. Yeah. Right. So, uh, that was the darkest for sure. Um, and look, I assume there's the possibility of that happening in the future, which is part of the reason why I want to have my sort of life vest, you know, emergency exits. I want to know what the plan is if and when I start feeling the gravitational pull towards those types of...
And what are those, what tools do you have in place, man? I mean, I'll tell you there are, I think this is really important. I mean, this is the whole reason I'm doing the podcast. I'm so happy we're spending as much time as we... inevitably there might be someone listening or someone who knows someone that they're really worried about and having those tools in place and a plan if you start to feel that way is so important.
Yeah. I'll tell people how I'm thinking about it now. And uh, I've seen some, because we just lost a good friend, Nolan.
You know, and yeah. And I've sadly, I've lost at least half a dozen close friends to suicide. I mean, two from college, one from high school, two from high school, and just, it's a long list, right? All brilliant, quirky bastards, you know? Um, where I've landed with it is, uh, there are three primary sort of legs of the stool that I pay attention to. These are probably going to change over time. The first is sort of biology over content. So instead of taking like the Freudian-informed talk therapy approach, again, this is for me personally, folks. This is not medical advice, but biology first. So metabolic psychiatry, everybody should take a look at metabolic psychiatry mostly. There's someone named Chris Palmer from Harvard who's been really popularizing this, wrote a book about it, but it focuses primarily on the ketogenic diet or carb-restricted diets. The second is different types of brain stimulation. Coming back to Nolan, so accelerated TMS would be an example. And there are more and more refined versions of that where literally, I'm a walking case study here and I know a lot about the science. Uh, one single day of brain stimulation doesn't hurt at all. Preloading with something called declomycin, which is an old antibiotic that used to be used for tuberculosis, but it improves neuroplasticity. To put it simply, you basically stick a lozenge in your mouth, you do one day of stimulations and took my generalized anxiety, and I've been diagnosed with all this stuff, got to be careful with that, but I have, from like an eight or nine out of 10 consistency to like a zero to one for one with one day.
Shorter stimulations. So we can talk more about this. And that has lasted now four months.
Yeah. I remember you were, I was texting with you when you were there. Four months. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible.
And uh, I've done a lot of trial and error with brain stimulation. So we have the metabolic psychiatry. And I'll come back to that fuel, right? And then you have brain stimulation. And then the third, I would say, with kind of covering my face and pointing off in the distance, like when people ask Warren Buffett how to become rich and he does that when pointing to Wall Street, I would point to psychedelic-assisted therapies. And I say that because it's nuclear power and it can cut a bunch of different ways. You and I both know that. So you have to be very careful and I have a lot of caveats there. But those three continue to be very important to me. I approach them in the order that I just mentioned. So, nutrition and fuel, then brain stimulation, and then psychedelic therapies. And then there's a bunch of other stuff that is helpful, right? So, I don't want to diminish the importance of exercise, and those are non-negotiable, but I suspect a lot of people may have already talked about those. It doesn't work as a, as again, right, no magic pill.
Yeah, there's no magic pill.
It's not a magic pill for everybody, and it does take some effort. There's no free lunch here.
But a first line of defense. I mean, I think that's what we're looking for. First line defense is try this if you, you know, part of what I want to get to is like for someone who feels like they're trying everything and nothing's working. Hopefully, they discover some new things today. So, this is just one idea.
If you've tried to purchase Morning Water the last few months, we've been sold out. Today, we're officially back in stock and announcing our next Morning Water challenge. During the month of November, I'd like you to join me for 30 days in starting each day with a simple win. Together, we drink one glass of Morning Water and get at least five minutes of sunlight each morning. And when you sign up, you'll get a 30-day supply of Morning Water, a glass bottle, 30 days of access to the Hard Work Pays Off workout app, and access to our private community group. Finish the challenge, write a review, and we'll send you another 30-day supply of Morning Water for free. There's absolutely no risk here. You try it for 30 days. If you do not like it, we will refund 100% of your money back. We're opening up to 2,000 spots for this challenge. Our last challenge sold out in less than two weeks. So, go to morningwater.co. Again, that's morningwater.co and sign up today. Just remember to use the code No Magic Pill when signing up. Let's make November your best month ever.
All right, so you have the metabolic psychiatry, then there's the brain stimulation. There are many different ways, and I should say bioelectric medicine because there are many different approaches to this. The one that I highlighted is accelerated TMS. And just to give people a lead, uh, the clinic that I, I have no affiliate code or anything with these guys. No involvement. Uh, but there are a lot of fly-by-night TMS clinics just like there are a lot of fly-by-night ketamine clinics. I've used Acacia Clinic.
Yeah, there you go. So I feel like they're credible. They do good work. They run clinical trials. So far in my experience, they've been good. Uh, and then the third piece is the psychedelic stuff which, you know, we can uncork if you want to uncork that.
Yeah. I mean, I think uncorking a little bit, I mean, we could spend two hours just talking about that and you and I have, you know, on our own, but I would say, you know, for me when I was in a really acute state and just looping and feeling like there was no hope, uh, ketamine helped a lot. Yeah. You know, I was really, I was a little bit like hesitant because of, you know, I think a lot of people abuse it and I was like, I don't know, because I've worked with these other medicines, but I was able to use ketamine, especially because I was on a bunch of pharmaceuticals and that was part of the problem now that I look back. But at least that medicine was available. I didn't have to wean off all the pharmaceuticals and it really just kind of, I don't know. I'm curious, what do you think it did? Because it really made a big difference for a short period of time.
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, you know, John Krystal of Yale and others are worth checking out for people who are interested in ketamine.
Uh, my brief take on ketamine, I've done a number of cycles, not because I needed it at the time, but I wanted to be able to speak to the effects. [laughter]
Yeah, you're one of the great experimenters, and I think we all are very grateful that you have put yourself out there.
Yeah. Thanks. For now, for 20 years. I mean, I could give people a long list of the not to do.
I think back to The 4-Hour Body. What year did The 4-Hour Body come out?
Yeah. 2010. I was reading it like, 'What is he doing to himself?'
Yeah. I think I might have been the first non-type 1 diabetic to use a continuous glucose monitor, which was in that book. I used it in 2008 and now you see them on everyone.
So in the case of ketamine, um, I think one of the incredible applications of ketamine, there are a lot of misapplications, but if you are acutely suicidal, if you have suicidal ideation, I have not come across anything that as consistently, it's not 100%, as ketamine is such an effective pattern interrupt. That you can watch someone go in with 'I'm going to kill myself today or tomorrow' to 'I don't know why I was so upset about X.' Literally in one session or a few sessions. I've never seen anything produce that kind of effect otherwise. And my, let's just say, muggle's way of trying to explain that would be it's a dissociative anesthetic. Right? So on one hand the anesthetic effect, I mean you've probably experienced this subjectively, it's very strange where you're having a conscious experience but you can't feel your body at all. It's very strange and you wonder, you're like, am I breathing? I must be breathing because I'm still alive. But it's very strange not to be able to sense it. Now I think on one hand the sympathetic overdrive that can feed a lot of the loops is in a sense taken offline at least from your conscious awareness. Okay, that's what's happening. Then the dissociative component, I think people need to be very careful with dissociatives, so I'll give a couple of warnings, but the dissociative piece is very helpful and as you mentioned, ketamine has not zero but very few contraindications, right, unlike some of the psychedelics. And it is generally very, very safe. It's on the, I think it's on the World Health Organization's 100 most essential medicines. It's really critical. And especially if you have a good guide or therapist. I mean, that's, I think we should say that as well because that is a very important piece to any of this.
Yeah, you need it. And if they haven't been doing it for 10 years, I'd say steer away, right, if you can.
But, um, the distance, to keep it simple, that the dissociative affords you is it allows you, as is the case with other psychedelics, to take an observer role. So, you step out of the movie and you sit in the audience of the movie of your mind and you're able to go, 'Wait a second here. There's a plot hole. Wait a minute. That doesn't make sense. That character wouldn't have done that.' And in that way, you're able to kind of audit the thoughts that are governing your life and your feeling and your desperation. So, I do think it's a useful tool. It's a good arrow to have in the quiver. At the same time, I will say I feel very strongly that people should not have lozenges at home. They should not have take-home nasal applicators. It is very addictive. And just like alcohol, uh, I have many friends who have spun into a deep addiction. Uh, and it tends to produce a lot of thoughts, delusions of grandeur.
You feel like you have superpowers.
Yeah, you feel like you're on the inside track and that you're doing everything more effectively. Meanwhile, you're just destroying your relationships and falling.
I'm glad that you brought up that warning because that is there. You know, it's like, one time I was having this amazing, I had this dinner with Desmond Tutu. And he told me, he pulls out the knife and he goes, 'Blake, this butter knife, you know, when you use it to butter bread, good. When you use it to stab your neighbor, bad, same knife.' You know, it's kind of the same thing with ketamine. You know, it's like when you have a guide, when you're doing it in an environment that is, you know, therapeutic, it can be really helpful.
Limit it to the clinic, right? Like, and don't, this is not something you're just doing at home.
Yeah. Uh, because I know people like they're going through, for instance, I know someone, they were going through a divorce, didn't want to feel what they were feeling, started using ketamine every day at night as a way to take the edge off as someone might use alcohol or nitrous or whatever.
This is maybe going to sound controversial, but I know right now the chorus, and I think it's very beneficial, is less alcohol or no alcohol, right? Alcohol bad. But what you find is that at least on the coasts, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere, it's definitely true overseas in some places, people are like, 'Ketamine, it's like alcohol but without all the side effects.' And I'm like, 'Wait a minute now. Time out.' One of the benefits, I'll just throw it out there, of alcohol is if you consume too much, you're going to feel like dog [__] the next day. So, in a sense, unless you are a full-blown alcoholic, there is a little bit of self-limiting. Whereas ketamine, like you can buy the falsehood that it's a free lunch and get yourself into a world of trouble.
I appreciate you saying that. And I want to go back to the thing you spoke about in terms of why it is effective in a therapeutic setting that you become this observer and you see things in the movie that might not make sense. That was very much the case when I had the experience. It brings me back to something that I read that Martha Beck wrote about. You know, she said, you know, one of the most important things for someone to, you know, potentially get out of a depression or a depressed state is, you know, really looking at their life and seeing where they're not being with integrity. And I think very much depression for me as I look back at now when it got so severe was really kind of like a wakeup call. It was really kind of a check engine light of my soul or my spirit or my higher self. Saying, Blake, you have gone off track. Like this is, the decisions you're making and the way that you're living isn't in alignment with what you came here to do. And ketamine was one of the things along with some really great therapy that showed me that my soul did not want to live the life that I was living. And I'm curious with some of your depressive episodes, have you ever found that to be the case where you look back now and you're like, 'Oh, that depressive episode was actually a signal to me to course correct in some area of my life.'
I think that the check engine light is a good analogy. Right. So, for instance, I had a pretty dark period towards the end of writing my third book, The 4-Hour Chef, which was an impossible suicide mission of a deadline that I agreed to. Like the book, especially looking back at it now, I'm like that should have taken any reasonable person like three years and I agreed to do it in like 11 months. It was just insane. Still very proud of the book. But what that meant is I'm fully on the stimulant train, but then you can't sleep. So, I'm taking downers or sleeping pills or whatever to try to get to sleep, but it's fractured shitty sleep, right? The sleep architecture is totally destroyed. And I was also in a relationship that probably should have ended a few years earlier. But I felt so desperate with everything else. And I think there's actually some validity to this. I just, I needed a life raft even if it was covered in thorns. [laughter] I understand. And there was a lot going on that required course correction. And I was also very resistant to reaching out for help. That was a big problem really. And my unspoken mantra was suffer in silence, right? Like, why inconvenience people with this? There's nothing they can do anyway. So solve your problem. And ultimately, actually someone whose name came up before we started recording, Chase Jarvis, to his credit was like, 'I really think you should try transcendental meditation.' And I looked into it and I'm like, 'You have to buy flowers for some guy who gives you a mantra that you can't tell anyone. Like, what kind of cult is this? Like, I'm not interested.' And I was like, 'Plus it costs at least at the time like SF was like a thousand bucks.' And I'm like, 'This sounds like such a scam.' And he's like, 'You can afford it.' It's been hugely, hugely helpful for me. And I was desperate, right? So I tried it, ended up being incredibly helpful.
So basically what that, you recognized that you were getting off course in many different ways. I mean the stimulants number one, this impossible deadline, being in a relationship that probably has an expiration date that's passed.
Yeah. And the impossible deadline also was very closely related to a certain subconscious FOMO. I felt like this is a huge opportunity. I can't miss it. If I miss it, I may never see anything like this again. And look, sometimes that's true. But ultimately developed a much broader awareness of just how much opportunity is everywhere.
Yeah. You don't have to kill yourself. So to kind of bring you up to speed with, you know, kind of my last year and a half. So do you know Dr. Dan Engle?
Okay. So Dan, my first, I think it was my first ever episode related to psychedelics. It was 2015 and Dan was on it and we talked about Ibogaine.
Okay. Back in the day. Yeah. So I know Dan.
So Dr. Dan was my psychiatrist. And so I was basically, now I know I was misdiagnosed as bipolar. I was put on four different pharmaceuticals. Never had been on one in my life. And my entire, I don't even remember almost two years. I mean literally I was, you know, numb. I made a bunch of decisions that don't make any sense. Like I was just, I was depressed. Then I started drinking. I mean it was just a total mess. And so I got so bad that I reached out for help and I told my friends like, I'm not okay. And during that time, our good friend Joe Green introduced me to Dan and he said, 'Hey, like I think you should really look at this diagnosis and also all these meds.' And so Dan and I spent six months weaning myself off these meds. And in that process, we did a lot of deep work together. And in one journey that we had together, he and I or I uncovered that underneath a lot of this was this feeling that I never felt that I was enough. And as a kid I felt like my ability to get love and attention was if I won tennis matches and it was businesses and it was starting to and helping people and no matter what I did it was never enough and I never felt enough. And so Dan made me this mala and he said, okay, I want like a beaded, you know, like...
It's like a rosary kind of.
Yeah. Kind of like a rosary. He handmade it for me and he's a sweet guy.
And he goes, 'I want you to try something for 40 days.' And I was desperate. I mean, I was really not in a good place. And he said, you know, basically, if for 40 years your brain has been telling yourself that you're not enough, we have to reprogram your subconscious and kind of rewire your neural pathways. And we're going to do this with this mantra-based meditation. And so I promised him, and I did it, that I'd wake up and for the first 20 minutes every morning, I'd set my timer, I would sit up in bed and I would use the beads and I would go, 'I am enough. I've always been enough. I am enough. I've always been enough' for 20 minutes. Then at night before going to bed again, 20 minutes. Now the first two weeks, 20 minutes felt like two hours, by the way. I mean, if anyone's done mantra-based meditation for 20 minutes, especially out loud, because you get in that rhythm and it's just like, how many times have I said this? It feels forever. And so I was feeling like nothing was happening. I mean, I think on the third week I almost was like, I'm done, but I was really desperate. So I kept doing it and then around the 28th day I had this like full-body like Kundalini release. It was the craziest thing I've ever experienced above even any psychedelics, anything. Just all of a sudden I just felt it in my body and I got out and I saw my friend and I said, you know what, I'm enough and I've always been enough, like in a joke, but I actually really believed it for the first time maybe my whole life. And so, you know, that ultimately led to creating the bracelet and then, you know, giving it to people as...
Got one on my desk at home.
Oh, you do? Okay, great. And so that led to the bracelet and then, you know, creating the nonprofit to raise money. But I'm so curious now, was it the mantra of 'I am enough' or was it just the practice of 20 minutes in the morning and the evening, rhythmic? I mean, it could be both, says who, who knows, who knows.
Yeah, it could be both. I mean, my feeling is as the sort of self-described, self-appointed human guinea pig, right? I still have some more safety rails on that than I used to, but part of what I try to do and a lot of the science I fund is just trying to decouple things to ask the question, what else might explain this or what else might contribute? So, I am firmly in the camp that content does matter. There's just for me a question of in what order do you sequence things, right? If you're in a really dark place, where do you start? And where I've landed, right? If it's really, really acute, ketamine. Right. If you're at imminent risk of self-harm, that's the best choice I've found. Then it's pay attention to the body, right? State, fuel, food. Then there's the brain stimulation, right? And then there's the psychedelic-assisted therapies. I do think the content matters. I am simply curious if there are aspects for people who have perhaps not succeeded with anything verbal before. If they're like, I've tried it, man. I've tried 20 of these. I did this type of therapy and internal family systems and which I actually...
think is really can be really super valuable or family constellation therapy or whatever and they're just like none of it's clicked.
I'm like okay. Pause. What about this? Let's consider this.
So for instance, one of the more recent types of research that I funded with respect to psychedelics is actually looking at their potent anti-inflammatory effects at incredibly, incredibly low doses. We're talking at like 100th, 1,000th of a microdose. These are entirely subperceptual.
Just for inflammation, because if you look at the literature, there's a fair amount to suggest that if you give a cohort of — I'm making up this number, right — but if you give like 20 people with depression straight anti-inflammatories, that some percentage of them will have a remission in symptoms.
Inflammation, that's it. Just inflammation. Well, that goes back to the ketogenic diet, right?
Ketogenic diet. There are other ways to mitigate inflammation, but absolutely, the ketogenic diet is highly anti-inflammatory in a bunch of different ways, direct and indirect.
So there might be like really medical benefits that are non — I don't know, psychedelic in the way that we think about it, you know, not hallucinogenic or you know, that are just working with the biology. And also then a lot of neuroplasticity that people can, you know, often come from an experience with psychedelics and then in that state work on some of the content stuff.
I have been using an AI emotional support app called Sonia, and it has had a huge impact on my mental health. Now, it does not replace my traditional therapist, but I use Sonia in between. I use it at 6:00 a.m. when I can't call my therapist, and that has made all the difference in the world. So, I spoke to the founders of Sonia, and we have a special code for this community. It is friend of Blake. So, when you download the Sonia app, if you want to give it a try, put friend of Blake in there and you will get two months for free, and I guarantee you it will have a huge impact on you as it's had on me.
This year, I met some engineers from Nike who invented a new type of office chair that has not only changed my life, but actually saved my back. Especially because I am on about 5 hours of Zoom calls every day. The Move Lab chair has two different pivot points under the seat, which keeps your body in continuous micro movements all day. The founders told me it is the equivalent of taking 3,000 steps. And all the lubrication of your joints and the blood flow is why my back no longer hurts and I can focus on my work so much better. I loved it so much that I actually joined the team as a co-founder and I will be sending one to every person I know when we launch this fall. If you're interested in learning more or pre-ordering one, we only have 500 in the first run. You can check us out at movelab.com and that's spelled m-o-v-l-a-b.com.
For someone who is thinking that they're being called to work with ayahuasca, how can they have a safe experience?
Well, let me start with — because I think that was — I mean, if I'm hearing this right now, I think it's great because I think it's absolutely true and it really mirrors some of my own personal experiences, which, you know, some of them have been great and some have been quite scary.
Yeah, we've had some offline conversations about these. So yeah, the night — what do you call night school you told me about?
Yeah, you don't want to have night school. So people avoid night school at all. But so if someone is though saying, 'Okay, I've really thought about this, you know, I feel called,' like what would be just real quickly like the three steps or points that you would make to try to have a safe experience?
Yeah. Let me start just for people who are like, 'What the hell is night school?' That is when you have spontaneous resurgence of like the full-blown ayahuasca experience when you're trying to sleep in the days or weeks following, which can be very destabilizing. You assume you are effectively going crazy. And some people kind of do. So, putting night school aside,
I remember calling you about that. That was like a decade ago and I was like, Tim, what —
Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, okay, hold on. Thankfully, it only lasted about a week.
But it's common enough that a friend of mine gave it that name.
Night school. So putting that aside, what I would say is, first of all, if you don't feel pulled in a very meaningful way to do ayahuasca, do not do ayahuasca.
I like that you said that. Yeah. Number one.
Number one, like if you feel like it's an emergency, there's probably another tool that is better suited.
It's not an emergency tool.
If you're like, I need ayahuasca now, I would say maybe if it's say depression related, maybe ketamine is the first line of defense.
If we then conclude it's not an emergency, I'm like, okay, well you should just like you were going to climb Mount Kilimanjaro, chances are you're not just going to hop off your couch after doing nothing for 5 years and go try that.
So what I would say is, especially let's assume somebody has no psychedelic experience whatsoever, I would say pick an app and do 30 days of consistent meditation. And that could be non-app, but transcendental meditation, something else, but you could choose the Waking Up app with Sam Harris, his very first 30 days where he recorded it, I think, is incredibly strong. I don't know if they even still host it on the app. That and then a book called Awareness by Anthony De Mello.
Greatest books of all time.
Do those two things together for 30 days. And as you commit to that, schedule a date to do breathwork. Holotropic breathwork probably is the lowest hanging fruit because it was designed by Stan Grof and others to in effect attempt to simulate a psychedelic experience. It's very intense.
Well, before you continue, Anthony De Mello, Awareness, I think it's one of the greatest books of all time. It really delighted that you just brought that up.
I've given away hundreds of copies.
I have too. I mean, literally, I think every single person on my Christmas list has received that book. I've read it 10 times.
And every time you read it, something different sticks out.
I mean, the whole part about love and what really love is and —
And also he's like, 'You say you want to heal, you don't want to heal. You want relief.' And he's like, 'Let's dig into what that means.' You know, and he's like, 'I'm going to write a book one day. It'll be called I'm an ass, you're an ass.' And he's like, 'Here's why.' You know, I just like the delivery.
No, it's okay. Long since passed, but Anthony De Mello was a Jesuit priest who was also a psychotherapist. Very interesting combo. Awareness, highest recommendation. I literally have an entire shelf in my guest bedroom at my house that is just that book. And so when people show up, I'm just like, 'Hey, take it. Grab it.'
It's my number one book I recommend to people.
Okay. So there's the commitment to meditate daily and read Awareness, then to schedule breathwork, say holotropic, which is turning towards the whole by the way, much like hologram and then like entropy, right? I'm a word nerd, but holotropic breathwork is pretty well standardized. I would say it's very intense. You probably will have a headache the day after you do it, but experience that and see how you navigate it.
Yeah. Right. It's a great point.
Then after that and after your 30 days are complete, if at that point you still feel pulled to like a pharmaceutical or pharmacological intervention, then I would say — again, these are almost all illegal. So be aware of the legal side effects. But let's just say in a legal context if you can figure it out. And there are hospital systems, say in Utah, at least last I checked, that were, I think it was Intermountain Health looking at both psilocybin and MDMA, which is incredible. Utah and Texas leading the charge. Who would have thought, right?
The point of that is like then look at what you can get out of MDMA.
With supervision, right? MDMA I feel, and by extension other tools that are close cousins like methylone for instance, incredibly underrated.
Why are they underrated? Number one, they've been around for a while. Huge thanks to Sasha Shulgin for resurrecting a lot of compounds including MDMA. But they don't give you the razzle-dazzle alligators with rhinestones were chanting to me in extinct language and alien intelligence came down through a beam and taught me about warp drives. Like the MDMA experience generally doesn't have that. So you don't get to sit down with your friends and be like, 'Guess what I Avatar the movie and let me tell you all about it.' And I think for that reason there's a selection bias towards the crazy stuff. And look, I get it, right? Like it is unlike anything you will ever experience. But MDMA, methylone, associated, whatever you want to call them, right? And empathogens and entactogens are really underrated and people should check out the research of Gul Dolen.
Who is at Berkeley, used to be at Hopkins, and what she is able to do with MDMA is absolutely head spinning, right? Not just on the psychological side, but if we expand that a bit, MDMA, and I think this is probably true for other psychedelics, but it reopens, it appears to reopen critical periods. So for instance, in stroke patients who are unable to use an arm or something like that, if they need to regain motor skill, normally they might not be able to do it or there would be a very short window after injury. And it seems like you might be able to use MDMA for this.
Wow. And has MDMA — I'm curious, like with your, you know, anxiety and OCD, has MDMA been a tool that you've used and has that helped for those conditions?
MDMA I have found most helpful personally for trauma work. And also frankly, and I don't think this should be brushed aside, like social bonding.
Right. On very rare occasions. And I mentioned Sasha Shulgin. People can look him up if you want. Fascinating.
Also long since passed, but PiHKAL and TiHKAL, his books are crazy. They're so fun. In any case, he — I think it was he, it might have been his wife Ann — who said you any more than four times a year and it starts to lose its magic. Like you can develop a tolerance and that tolerance can be persistent.
In other words, like once you develop it — sorry, kiddo.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think be very careful with it. I mean, a little bit like ketamine in that way. And less is often more, right? Even if you look at the dosing in the clinical trials, Lykos, which is now renamed something else, I think it was 125 with the option for a booster. Some facilitators use very high doses. They'll be like, 'All right, body weight plus 20%.' It's like, 'Oh boy.' So you end up using in my case like 200 plus.
But there have also been, I believe, I'm almost sure there have been studies looking at 90, 95 milligrams in firefighters, big dudes.
Yeah. And I think that can be an amazing — I think less is more here.
Okay. So then I haven't even finished, right? So let's say you do all that. All right. You do the meditation, you read Awareness. That's 30 days. You do the breathwork. You do one or two sessions with MDMA. All right. And you're still like, you know what? I'm still feeling the pull. Okay, great. Do something like psilocybin, which practically speaking is going to be mushrooms probably. It could also, depending on the facilitator, be LSD. Just be aware like LSD is a very big gun. It lasts twice as long, three times as long as — it gets downplayed because it's not the sexy new girl at the bar like some people think of 5-MeO-DMT or whatever and they want to talk about the latest and greatest weird synthetic. LSD is powerful. Like it will — I've volunteered probably, I don't know, 80, 100 hours at festivals in the crisis tent handling people who are losing it, and a lot of them are people who didn't take LSD seriously.
There's more — it lasts so much longer.
Yeah, there's more margin for safety with at least most up to very recently mushrooms, yeah. Because you're counting them in grams. If you're dealing with LSD, it's micrograms, which was last I checked a millionth of a gram.
So it's a big — you get one thing a little wrong —
You get two drops and you got a different ride ahead of you.
So then I would say, all right, let's just say hypothetically I want you to do mushrooms six to 10 times.
