There was a lesson in governance here. Yesterday evening, people accused Infosys of fraud. I mean, the company that we would put on the corporate governance list — they accused it of fraud. But Ashu, their stock is up. So people trust that the governance is right. This is a false accusation. So first of all, let's give a round of applause to India's IT industry.
Before I came, I saw what happened, considering the US has been bowling aggressively with whatever decisions it has taken. There are reasons for that to be taken. The topic of my conversation is resilience — success through resilience. I will keep to it, but I'll add a little AI spice, because I feel that not talking about AI while I'm on stage would feel a little awkward. So, I mean, it would feel awkward to me. You might wonder why I'm talking about anything other than resilience. So the reason that sir chose this topic is about the life that I went through in the last two years. And things happened. And then there was a time when I made a phone call to this person in Tokyo. You can guess who lives in Tokyo.
It was two years ago. I met him long back. Two years ago, and no, this was not Masa, but one of his teammates. And I said — let's start with Jeeva, by the way. So I talked to him and I said, I need guidance, what happens in this moment? And he said that you are going through the falling knife theory. This is the moment of falling knives, and for the room, our stock price, which literally post-IPO was anyways tanking because of many reasons — like we can assume our side reasons, market side reasons, but enough reasons. We listed...
We listed around ₹200, ₹180, like that. But at the same time, the stock was anyways declining. But there was a regulatory reaction, and after that, the stock was like falling apart — like every day, circuits after circuits after circuits. This was the time when this stock reached 537, which was like... enterprise value was $450.
We had more cash, plus probably the enterprise value was minuscule ever. If you will, the bank had a billion dollars, and we were valued at three and a half billion dollars. I mean, I am talking dollar range because I was talking on the dollar range to this person. So...
So he said, Vijay, you are going through a falling knife problem. Somebody has to hold it. I said, this is the call for that. He said, no, no, you will have to have somebody around you who knows your new business, around you, what you are doing in this. And no, no, I did not call Masa for a bailout call. I was trying to ask the situation that Masa is going through, and this is not Masa's teammate. I deliberately did not talk to Masa. I was trying to ask them. And then I... and I love learning. This is the problem. When the boss is bad in life, he slides in such a way that no matter how much you sing the song of corporate governance, nobody listens.
It's not that I didn't make mistakes. I mean, I am the reason that we had this problem. But it's the same for... many more reasons that we had the situation, which some of them were out of syllabus. I, in this room, can tell you guys, to one of my closest board members. So, I am assuming that most of you know the context that I am talking about. Okay? If not, I will just quickly tell you.
Let's start from 2015, because demonetisation is going to happen a year later. So it should happen a little before that too. In a few days, our name will change from T2 Mobile to Modi too. You know what I said? I named it. I found out that this is what it means. I said, oh my God, this is creative, creative. Thank you. They want my reach to reach more places, and he is reaching.
Well, so this is a time when my product market fit, as I call it. By the way, I will definitely give everyone some business knowledge. It is about product market fit. Your product fits your market in a proper way, and your people fit. I mean, these three things have the rule in them. Either your product is wrong, or the market is not good enough. Like our friend who was asking about manufacturing — his product is right, but the market doesn't like it. You know the market condition is like that. So if the market is not right, I will either change the market or change the product.
I mean, I am not from the manufacturing industry, but I was thinking about how to answer that. So my product market fit was achieved. People were lifting their phones and making payments. The QR code of the shop was working, and I was like, wow, great. And then 2016 happened. We went through incredible highs. By now, most people know that I did not know about demonetisation before it happened. I am sure.
That's a fact too, obviously. But the difference between startups and big companies is that we turn around fast. The only difference in a young company — young meaning agile, young may be not necessarily as an age, but agile and turn-around-fast company versus an incumbent company, whom we label as incumbent, is turnaround time. Speed of turnaround, speed of turning around what output is required. And that is where the difference between — I call it agile, and I can call that startup young. Maybe we are still, because we turn around fast, and maybe we will not be, even if you are a young age company. So we turned around, and the newspaper ad the same night made us believe, made some people believe that we were the ultra knowledgeable. But for everyone, it was — yaar, that market... I mean, it wasn't just for me. Let's say my newspaper ad came one night, but the next day it was for someone else, and after that too, there was someone. So one night a newspaper ad came — thank God, now I will use this. It wasn't like that. There had to be some market fit. It was with everyone. Whoever was there, everyone took it. Now...
We went through this crazy, crazy time. I said it. I mean, I had Jack Ma in one of the board meetings. I was in Hong Kong. It was about a board meeting, and then he said, so what has it done? I said, I curse that three years' growth has happened in three months. Because of compounding product understanding, I go everywhere, people have logos of Paytm accepted here and the places, the customers, repeat usage, everything is phenomenal. And then the question...
I oppose the idea that everyone should not make money first, because some things take time to grow. Not everyone should eat Maggi; some should eat gubbara phool too. No, you should be profitable. But the day you cut profit out of the product, that can come later, if you are able to hold it. I totally endorse being profitable. After that, my voice is different, and I am getting invites to places where they ask me to talk about success.
So I believe that the world will see me through a capitalist lens, no matter how innovatively I offer you something. Especially since we are publicly listed, a lot will happen. So in the sense that I knew that my investors, like you said, wanted fast money, and maybe they do want fast money, including Warren. I mean, Berkshire was my shareholder for a while. So from SoftBank, obviously, Alibaba has been our shareholder in those days. So, practically, my investors said that I don't think you should monetize this yet, because it has to reach a place where it cannot come back to the point of no return. Most of you know that MDR is coming, and there are all kinds of reactions. So their point was that first, this is good success, but it hasn't scaled yet. Now it can scale. That was the pitch on those days. So I was like, spending money, guys. Paytm has invested ₹45,000 crore of equity in the market of building payments in this country, making you used to taking up a phone and scanning a QR code to pay. I mean, there were like a single person and a single team taking up — wow, that we will change the behavior of this country. Today I feel very proud of it. Go out, go anywhere. People say, brother, why don't you have Paytm? Its name became UPI, so why don't you have UPI? So I feel privileged about it that we did not monetize it too early. Just in case, well, keeping that aside, we started to build the business, and in 2020 we figured out that the problem happened was that COVID happened, and the money was going — like you said, and like I understand that it is not going to be surviving, so we need to be reaching the last round of raising money. And the last round was clear that because we could have raised money from our current shareholders, public market, dot dot dot. Did you guys know that before 2020, loss-making companies could not IPO here? Yes. And did you guys know that I was asked in a room, Mr. Sharma, you have to — you are an Indian company. You will have to list in India. Hello — if I say something now, you will wonder who this is. I can guess. So, but we are not on a three-year profitable track record. So how will I? That's our problem to solve — to list here. And that is how I will try to list here. In that day, I had a reverse merger. Some of you might know, SPACs used to happen — S-P-A-C — reverse mergers into pre-listed companies. I had a SPAC from Chamath, maybe, maybe not Chamath, against me. A $23 billion reverse merger, I mean, on a company value, and it was obviously going to be listed in the US there. But then it was not logistics. We listed in India, and the drama happened. That market, literally, just after funding, public market — it was crazy because we didn't know as a company. Like, we just learned what the public market is. I will be very frank about it. I did not know and have a clue. And the public market was brutal in the sense of a stock price, to what we should do and not, and everything that we are discussing. But it had some surprising elements to me. And in this room, I am assuming that I am going to share that when it happens to you, the person in front won't shoot you. The bullet will come from the side. Stray bullets hurt you more than the straight bullets. I think everybody in this room has the ability and capability to handle what comes from the front. Hit me from the front, man. Why are you hitting me from behind? You understand? That's how it happens. So we were not hit from behind, nor from the front. We were hit from the side, which we had no plan for. We were driving our car, and a truck came from behind and blew us away from the side. That's the kind of feeling I had. And I was like, what was my fault? At the red light, I was going from red light to green light only. That's what I believed, but later I found out it was my fault. The color...
Because there is a lesson in my life that I've had since childhood. I do not come from a business family. I come from a family of teachers and education. My grandfather was a Vaidya (traditional physician). There are colleges and inter-colleges named after him in Uttar Pradesh, and my father was a teacher who is a principal. So in my house, CEO and business were not even words. I am not kidding you. I only found out that CEO is a role after I came to engineering college. Because where I lived in Aligarh, in Hars, there was no CEO at all. Seriously. I asked in my college, in the training and placement department, who gets the highest salary? The CEO gets it. Oh, how do you become a CEO? Can't we become CEOs? So he said, 'Abey, you'll get a call — just become one yourself.'
You won't believe it. I didn't do this to change the world. I did it because there were loans in my house — for my sister's wedding and such — and I had to pay them off. And I wanted to live my life free, free of the responsibilities of the home. And to get more money, I had to become a CEO. To become a CEO, I started a company.
Well, it wasn't that simple either.
By the way, boss, no, it's a nice secret. Although all of you already run a business. It's a really cute one. I learned it some days back from someone. So, college — you came from Aligarh to Delhi. From Delhi, you want a business. So nobody knows you. You are also a hosteler. Nobody knows you like that. And you can understand that I am a Hindi-speaking person. I can speak English fluently, but I thought I would speak Hindi in front of you all because when we talk, we talk from the heart. And you all buy 'Man Ki Baat' — so in that context, how would you find business in Delhi? I understood the internet. I could make websites in '97-'98, when there was free internet — Yahoo, AltaVista, and Xtra... Infosys Go — these all used to exist. So I used to do a very interesting hack. You young kids in this room — although it looks like everyone here is not young at all; everyone already has a business — but anyway. I used to go for job interviews. And there, when they would select me for the job, they would ask how much salary do you want? Then I would tell them, 'Sir, I cannot join your company, but I am sure you have overload. Will you give me the work, and I will deliver the work?' Some people would say, 'You wasted my time. Get out of my sight. You did sleight of hand with me.' Others would say, 'Oh! Very interesting. So if you can't take a job, but you are in a job interview...' I said, 'Yeah, I thought that you will have a lot of work. So you will give me the consulting, freelancing assignment.' So freelancing assignments and meeting new people — this is also a way. Offer yourself in the job market. You'll have an interview with a big man, and I'd say, 'Today I haven't come to take an interview. I've come to take money.'
From someone else. 'Hey, how did you...?' Well, I used to raise... I used to get my customers like this. Okay. So, now I'm telling you this because this word 'resilience' — what does this word 'resilience' mean? You don't understand it until you go to the school of its situations. And the answer was, I was not saying no. If I did not know how to acquire a customer, I was not stopping because there was a restriction on acquiring customers. I was like, doesn't even matter, man, I will go in a job interview and get a customer. And then similarly... when the stock went way up, the share is going down, sliding. I was like, it doesn't matter, man, we'll figure it out. I am not a public market guy, obviously. Neither a family company. We have a... anything like that. And obviously, for those of you who are not from Bombay, I want to tell you this: the stock market is owned by Mumbaikars.
The direct meaning of this is: when you want to have a glimpse of the Goddess, you first have to pay respects to Bhairav Devta. You understand? What can I say? Those who need to understand will understand. Those who don't understand don't need to understand. So it's for everyone, man. When everyone gets it, at least you become knowledgeable. I'm just saying, keep this in mind: if you're coming to Bombay to raise money, to enter the stock market, then go pay respects at the Bombay temple first. Well, I thought, I am an internationally funded company. I have oversold to everybody. This will just happen. And you can guess what happened. Well, the learning of the lesson is...
If you want to become king of a jungle, let the jungle let you be. To become king in the jungle, you have to live in the jungle, and you have to let the jungle live. So this is about: if you believe in Bombay, you have to be in it. If you feel that you will come into this market, then you have to be a player of the market. The rule of the game has to be even the environment that you live in. You can't be living in the era and against it. We are this. You... we have 30 markers — where, Turram Khan — but the rules here will be ours. So you have to read them. The market...
Actually, what it is, is that sometimes — and my belief is this — life gives you a problem. What do we think a problem is? Do you understand the definition of a problem? The resilience test only happens when there is a problem. What is the definition of a problem? A problem is something that is beyond your skill. Correct? And not — for someone, getting a customer is a problem because the person does not know how to acquire the customer. For someone, technology is a problem because I do not know what technology is. For someone, ₹1,000 crore is a problem because the person does not know how to get crores. And for someone, ₹1 lakh crore is not a problem because they know how to get ₹10 lakh crore. Understood? Your worth is decided by that number which you call a problem. Until then, your range...
My blood and water are running. The knife is going down. The stock is flying, crashing. Right now, my metaphor is like that Dubai plane — Fly Dubai. It's become like that. Get out... so damn, I don't know what sin I've committed.
One person, a media person, called me and said, 'Brother, I'm your friend, that's why I'm calling. You should not be here tomorrow. Don't tell anyone in your house, don't ask anyone in your office — you should not be here tomorrow either.' 'What happened?' 'They are not behind Paytm. They are coming behind you.' 'What did I do?' 'Well, whatever it is, you have to take care of yourself. You are a nice guy. I thought I should call you.' 'But why are you saying this?' 'I just want to say that if you are not here, there is nothing here. Save yourself.' I was like, what kind of way is this? I don't even know what this is. And then you are calling me — is there something that you really know? Take it as a well-wisher's call. Understand that there will be no loss, that's all I'll say.' And the call disconnected. I said, hey God — I mean, layers of problems. That guy is gone, this happened, the stock went up, came here, now it has come this far too. Now, my family — as you can understand — they don't have money anyway. I mean, we are a very normal middle class, obviously. The stock has worth, etc., but you can see the guy doesn't live like that. I actually don't... money is what I am here for. I am here for money as a power that I can use to do something. But I'm not a consumer of money. That's what I want to say. Individually, organizationally, you need resources, and individually you need power. That's also true.
I thought, what will I do now? Then I also thought on the side that maybe I should think about leaving the country. And I couldn't understand where I would go, why I would go, what I would save. Boss, I still remember. I was going home in my car. I drive my own car, by the way. Because when there was no money, it was a cheap car that we drove. When an expensive car came, we let a driver drive it.
Love you, man. It's very... I myself don't understand why the man who goes from back to front gives the car to a driver. Brother, you... Boy, I cannot tell you. When you are 'digbhramit' — a Hindi word, 'dishabharmit', meaning someone who doesn't know the direction. When you are in the dark, you do not know which direction to take. I'm a fan of Dr. Strange. You are on your own. You will decide where to go. Have your head on your shoulders.
I went through all kinds of nightmare situations. I thought I would put whatever money I had in my bank account into my sister's account. Who knows what might happen. And I cross the Moolchand flyover and come to GK-1. I used to live in GK-1. By the way, my home had come to GK-2. So I thought... then I thought, man, life isn't that bad. Right now I'm driving a car. I have a bank account left. We can go anywhere. Let's go eat golgappe.
It is real. People think I said it randomly on Kapil's show. That was real. I genuinely... Then I was eating golgappe, and I was thinking metaphorically. Look, I'm standing here. I'm neither on bail nor on pal. Nobody is watching, nobody is waiting. I am so free. And I have so much money in the bank that I could give it all to the golgappa seller. And I am enjoying it. I used to make myself feel normal by having these golgappas so many times. You people won't believe it, because... if you circle around Central Delhi, near Central Delhi there is UPSC, near UPSC there is a golgappa seller, and I became such a repeat visitor. And then he saw me — he has put up my photo, that we eat golgappas there. Those 20 stars are placed there — my photo is there too. Then I say, 'Among big faces, my face is recognized.'
But I didn't understand. I used to go everywhere. I folded my hands. 'I have made some mistake. If there is something for me, let me know.' And people used to say, 'But why?' I mean, whatever it is, I can't tell you much. Obviously, it's material. It's a public company, a lot of things. But I can say that I used to always say, first I would say, 'There must be some mistake that I have done. And you all be saved. I am here.' You know, I literally used to put the phone down like a metaphor for Paytm. And I would do like this. 'Any order for me?' There were many such discussions. Because in life, many times, if you want to thrive, that journey — you have to expand it like this, and you also have to consolidate it. So many times in your life, success is thriving. And many more times, success is just surviving. That is success.
I talk to my mom every day. My mom is old, she doesn't know English. Newspapers don't come to our house. So what I'm trying to say is — English newspapers, Economic Times, all this keeps going on. So she didn't know. So my mom calls. 'Where is Lalla? Is he with you?' I mean, the people who have to send that message — what happened with you. So I used to say, 'You are roaming here and there, may God protect you.' So I used to say, 'Mummy, my work has become such that I am roaming around like Hanuman, searching for my Sanjeevani.' Victory be ours. I don't know what the solution is in this, but hopefully one is, and some is...
I used to be solving for a puzzle which was out of syllabus. I told you what a problem is — a problem is something you don't even know about. That is the real problem. If you know about it, you'll put in effort, you'll get it done. You will work hard on it. But the thing that you have no clue about is the real problem. Before that, it is only your hard work. And if your hard work can solve it, I care about your definition of whether it is a problem or not. You are the problem. If you do not know what to solve it, then the problem is.
I knew the whole game, and I am sure many of you know this. What happened with Abhimanyu was that he could enter the Chakravyuh. And what happened to him — you tell me — I felt like, man, I have to get out of the Chakravyuh. I will put everything on the table that I have, because I didn't want to be tied up and finished. And that is probably the commitment to get out of this. I did not think about how much I am surviving with and what is left over. I was ready to cut anything. And I was trying to ask the correct answer. Advisors too, in this matter — I mean, you know what happens in the world. An advisor is not just an advisor. An advisor can also be someone's agent. From here to here, it felt like that too. I used to not know what to do. From that point, I was asking questions. I used to triangulate the direction. If three people are saying it, then that must be the direction. Maybe that's the truth. I had no idea what the truth was. It was that kind of situation. But one thing I was sure about: I am not going to get stuck, and this is not going to define me, and I will get out of it, and everything it takes, I will come out of it. And God.
And resilience is nothing but a commitment that you won't give up. Governance — whether it is in your business, turning around, whether it is some part of your life that you want to make better. Everything. I met very good people. I mean, extraordinary people — like sir gave advice, someone told me this: don't take it to heart. Take care of your health. After getting out of all this, health disappears, the person disappears. So take care of that. You didn't do anything wrong — the decision happened later. But save yourself so that decisions can come for you. I mean, it was such a level of stress. But the lovely thing was that I was able to pick up and have support — people who were guiding me. Somebody walked in this room just now, and his nephew will be my savior. He decided that I am not that bad.
Mr. Bansal came in the room, guys. Then I went to the temple. I came to Bombay. Then I talked to him. He said, 'Brother, I never met you. You are such a big man.' I said, 'I didn't meet, but maybe I'm not as big a man as was made out, or not as big a man as the perception is.' I didn't know that this also had to be done. So if you wanted to listen, I have a story. And Akash and many legends of this city — I cannot tell you how many words of gratitude, respect, regard they gave me. They asked me everything — what is the business model, what is understanding. And classically, our time window was short — after the quarter-end there is a little time, you can meet, after that you can't. So in those days we could talk, have conversations. And some people started to think about it — that it's not like everything will be finished. Something or other will be there. And I think he started accumulating at 350, 370, which was the stock price. Then somebody started accumulating, seeing him, at 400, 450. These are stock prices, by the way.
