I had a lot of emotional stuff happen to me in that second deployment. You know, my idol, Mattie Roberts — I've talked about him a couple times. I really, really hung on to that dude. Like he was my true north. Like he was the guy. And when he got shot up, when you see it happen, you know, I think that was the closest call for fire mission the entire Iraq war. Like inside a 15 m. I mean, sight picture from an AC-130 gunship. I mean, it was on top of you. A belt-fed machine gun just chewing us up. Everybody shot up except for me and one other guy. And we're all crowded behind this tractor tire. Just, you felt like a victim. Like I felt helpless, you know? I'm getting rounds poured all over me and at a certain point you just go, I'd rather run back into the front of this thing and get killed with all of them than be the lone survivor.
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is DJ Shipley. DJ Shipley is a retired Navy SEAL who served for 17 years, much of that time as a Tier 1 operator, meaning part of an elite, highly selective special operations unit within the SEALs. In recent years, DJ has emerged as a top public educator on the topics of how to structure your days to maximize your mindset for the sake of physical and mental health, as well as performance in work or school, and to best support and build your closest relationships. As you'll soon learn from DJ, there are key points in your day when you can take specific physical steps, including but not limited to physical exercise, to shift your mind away from rumination, distraction, and frustration to a state of immense clarity, focus, and drive. Through trial and error, DJ has figured out — and he shares with us — how that process is done and how you can do it, too, right down to the details. What he describes goes way beyond a standard morning routine or evening routine, and most importantly, is accessible to all of us. You also won't hear any cliches or fluff in today's discussion. DJ is very specific about what to do and when and how in order to become the best possible version of yourself. You'll often hear those words out there — how to become the best version of yourself or reach your potential. But what DJ does so beautifully is he explains exactly how to do that. And he shares his story of how he joined and moved through the SEAL teams and the victories, but of course also the immense challenges and losses that he and his teammates experienced. We also discuss addiction, PTSD, and depression and new paths for overcoming those. In particular, a new medical treatment, Ibogaine, followed by DMT, and how that's being used to help veterans overcome addiction, PTSD, and suicidality. I've paid close attention to that work over the last 5 years because the brain imaging aspect is being done by my colleague Dr. Nolan Williams at Stanford. I should mention that the Ibogaine-DMT process we discuss is not a recreational one. Rather, it's being done as part of clinical trials and dedicated research studies. DJ explains that process firsthand. And at the same time, I should mention that Ibogaine and DMT are still illegal in the United States. They are not FDA approved. So no one should explore their use outside of these clinical trials. However, the FDA is looking seriously at these compounds, and approval for them seems quite likely in the next 12 months or so. Today's discussion is one that anybody — male, female, young, or old — can benefit from. DJ has immense knowledge. He has immense experience, and he has an incredible ability to take what he's learned and turn it into actionable steps so you can improve your mental health, physical health, and performance and become the best possible version of yourself. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with DJ Shipley. DJ Shipley, welcome.
Thank you so much for having me, man.
Let's talk about mental health, physical health, and spiritual health, but not all at once. You talk a lot about — and you post a lot about — mental health, but I've noticed that a lot of that takes on a sort of protocol-y approach where you use physical steps to approach mental health and vice versa. So what's your framework on this thing that we call mental health? I'm not asking you to solve the mental health crisis in one swoop, but when you think about your own mental health, the people close to you, people you've worked with and the teams, you know, how do you approach mental health as a concept and as an actionable thing?
I've lived so many different stages of my life, high points and low points and everything in between. And at my lowest point, I had no physical connection. I was either down hard with an injury coming back from surgery, and then my mental health rapidly declined right after that. And for someone who never suffered from mental health issues, it's shocking and you feel like you're the only person going through it. Especially when you come from a subculture of special operations, nobody ever talks about it. So when you find yourself in that dark room alone, really contemplating some terrible things, it's hard to wrap your head around because you're the only person that's ever gone through it. And you know, I had some really good strength coaches, and coming back from injuries, the better I got physically, my mental health naturally just started to pull out of it. But everything we did was for the group, so all my physical attributes, everything I'm training is for the betterment of the group. Now it's the betterment of my family, of my tribe, of whatever I have. But you know, I talk about this thing, stacking up micro wins. My morning routine is structured in a way to where I can do that same routine everywhere. At any point of day, I can lock that thing in. But it all starts with an evening routine. So, when my phone goes off at 5:00 a.m. and I spring feet out of bed, I know exactly what I'm going to do for the next 12 minutes to put myself in position to not be stressed. So, I've got to power down my home life, and I've just got to think about what's coming next. So, laying out the clothes the night before, my bottle of water is filled, my pills are out, my toothbrush is out, everything is set. So, as soon as I get up, by the time I get to making my morning cup of coffee, I've done 25 things inside of my control.
Do you know off the top of your head what those things are right now that maybe you could just list them off? You said your alarm clock goes off 5:00 a.m. And that's regardless of when you went to sleep.
Regardless of when I went to sleep, typically. I mean, if I'm out here, I'm on a different time zone and I can change it, but if you get to bed at midnight or you get to bed at 9:00 p.m. or you get to bed at 2 a.m., alarm goes off at 5:00 a.m., you're up. You know, my wife gave me this the other day. I came home on a red eye. I didn't walk through the door until 2:30 in the morning. And alarm clock goes off at 5:00 and she rolls over and she's like, 'What are you doing?' 'I'm going to work.' And she's like, 'You can take a day off.' I'm like, 'No, I'm not taking a day off.' This last 5 days is the first time in as long as I can remember — 20 years — that I've actually taken 5 days of not working out when I had the physical ability to do it. I've never taken 5 days off because I'm so afraid my mental health will drop. Something will happen if I leave that routine. So, I wake up, unplug my phone, shut off the alarm, I walk in, toothpaste on, toothbrush. I go to the bathroom while I'm brushing my teeth, spit it out, all the pills I got to take in the morning, you know, vitamin D, all the stuff I take. And then I get dressed. Left sock, right sock, right shoe. Everything I do, I do in a very specific order. Even the way I put on my bracelets — if I put them on in the wrong order, I'll stop and I'll de-jock them all and I'll re-don them just because that's one simple thing. I'm not rushed. I'm not under duress. I'm in control this entire timeline. And that way when I get to the kitchen, I don't feel like I'm frantic. Where are my keys? Where's my wallet? Where's my bag? Everything's in a system right now to where I can step in that car. I'm not stuck behind a school bus. My car has gas in it. My phone's at 100%. Because we've all been there. Everybody's a normal person. I wake up, my wife wants to have a 15-minute conversation that puts me behind that school bus, and I'm typically not behind. Now I'm late for my first meeting. I've got to rush through my workout. I don't have time to take a shower. All that is going to cascade, and it's going to put me to be the person I don't want to be when I have to walk into that first meeting. It's like I'm trying to optimize everything that's within my control. So when I step through the threshold, this is a DJ that I'm purposely presenting to you right now under my control. And that really sets the entire framework for the whole day of being in a good headspace. I'm controlling the things that are controllable. And the things that I can't control, I don't think about them anymore. I block them out.
I love the regimen and your adherence to it. I'm curious about your mindset when the alarm goes off. Meaning, where is your head? I guess I know you're human and I understand enough about the brain to make an assumption, which is that you don't wake up every morning with the alarm going off at 5 thinking, 'Great, I'm going to get up and just roll right into the day.' That there may be times when you consider, you know, going into fetal position — you know, it's warm under those covers — but also that your mind, like anyone else's, probably starts spinning. It leaps to the past, leaps to even a little more stress than you'd like, a little more lethargy, this kind of thing. Do you purposely stack up to-dos so that you stay out of all of that? And if some of that persists as you're brushing your teeth, what's the way of dealing with that?
I just keep pushing. I just keep myself in motion the entire time. And I talk about dials, not switches, a lot with people, and it sounds selfish, but I have to be selfish right now in order to be selfless later. So, I tell guys, you know, as soon as that alarm clock goes off, I'm not thinking about my wife. I'm not thinking about my kids. I'm thinking about being as efficient as humanly possible. And I'm trying to hit that gym so I unrack at 0700 the best version of me. And I can't do it if I'm thinking about a fight or an argument we had with the wife the night before, the kids, and this and that. I have to be selfish right now because this is the only block I'm going to have for me to optimize myself, because at 10 a.m. I'm going to get pulled from 50 different directions. It's the exact same thing when I go home. So now between the hours of 10 a.m. and 6:00 p.m., I'm only thinking about work. I don't think about my wife. Don't think about my kids. I only think about the team and everything we're trying to do. At 6, you can watch — and I tell everybody, if you would put a hidden camera in my car, it would break the internet. I do it every day. I slam that car in park. I put my phone on do not disturb. I check social. I check all my texts. I'm good. There's no phone calls. And I've got a 12-minute drive from door to door. Those 12 minutes, I put on Chris Stapleton. Something that makes me feel good. It calms me down. And I pre-rehearse everything that's going to happen the moment I hit that garage door opener. Really, I do it every single day.
I realize it's personal, but to the extent that you're willing, maybe share a couple of what you're rehearsing.
I pull into the driveway. I slam it back in park. I check my phone one more time and I tell myself, 'You're only going to have 3 hours from 6:00 to 9:00 to be the person they need you to be. You got to be a full-time dad right now. You can be a full-time husband.' And I don't get it right every time. Some days I drag that stuff home with me, two hands texting frantically, but I really try not to. And before I hit that garage door, I tell myself, like, they don't know what's going on. They don't know the stress you're out at work. She's had her own day. They've had their own day. I mean, I've got a daughter in seventh grade. I've got another one in second grade. Like, you know, we got to work through this whole thing together. And it's like, what version of me do I want to present to them right now? I'm going to walk in, bags over my right shoulder. I'm going to clear the threshold, make an immediate 90-degree turn, and there's going to be that seven-year-old. And she's a huge ball of energy. She gets all shaken. She runs at me at full blast. And I pick her up, shake her, kiss her like 100% love. Take an immediate right in the kitchen. There's my oldest, usually eating something before homework's about to start. Give her a kiss, give her a hug, ask her how her day was. Straight to the room to see my wife because she's got a — she gets like a 30-minute buffer before she has to go upstairs and lock in with seventh-grade homework. Check her. What do you need? If you can fold the towels, if you can start dinner, done. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, my last interaction in the morning was positive. I left on a positive note. The first interaction you're getting at the end of the day is on a positive note. And regardless of how I'm feeling, if I have to fake it, I'll fake it. I got three hours. And if you space it over the course of the five days, I don't have a lot of time to make positive memories just because of work and stress and everything else. I'm trying to maximize those three hours. And then when I do, it feels like you can do no wrong. But every night after we finish dinner, me and my wife do a 20-minute walk. 10 minutes for her. So as soon as we start it, tell me about your day. Everything she wants to vent through, everything we got to get caught up on. We hit the halfway mark right around this park. And then it's my turn for 10 minutes. Average human can walk a mile in 20 minutes. Helps circadian rhythm. Helps digestion. I mean, mental clarity. I'm not on my phone. There's no stimulus. I mean, I'm watching the sunset. But now it's 20 minutes just for us to reconnect. And we do it every single day. Unless it's a torrential downpour. We're doing it every single night. And our marriage has never been better. My physical health has never been better. And then my time with my kids. I can be accountable for every single minute in my day. Did I maximize that opportunity? No. Why? Because I drug that dude home with me from, you know, 2:30 in the afternoon. I drug him all the way home till 6. That's not who they need. They don't need a commando. They don't need a business owner. They don't need an entrepreneur. They need a dude that's going to have a tea party right now or a guy that's going to talk about how difficult navigating seventh grade is. Like, she really needs a husband that's going to be fully present because I haven't been for the majority of our marriage. I've been gone, you know, 300 days out of the year. She really just needs a buddy who's going to help parent. And if I'm not mentally there, I'm never going to get there. So, I set conditions to where I can be the person I need to be no matter what threshold I'm walking through. And it's been hugely beneficial for me.
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What an awesome example. And the to-dos are super impressive. I wonder if we could just explore a little bit of the to-not-do. A lot of what you described, it's clear, requires having the phone away. I mean, I could go on and on about phones, but the incoming is incessant, right? You know, and the temptation is really tough to deal with. So when you walk in the door because you're with family, phone is in the car or it's just shut off during the day when you're going about your work. Is it understood that if your wife wants to get a hold of you, she can, but that there's a high threshold for that? Because I think a lot of couples get into, you know, like just pinging each other here and there, this and that. Even in business teams, there's a lot of unnecessary communication.
I'm fortunate now that my wife actually works inside the business, so she gets it and she knows that once I lock in, when that camera turns on, that microphone goes on, you got to leave me alone. And I tell people, like, I'm not trained to do this. I'm a normal dude, so I'm really susceptible to negative energy. And they know better. Don't slam me with something negative before I have to turn that microphone on because I'm not going to be able to compartmentalize it all the way. I need to be the best version of me right now. So, wait till I'm done and then deliver the bad news. And she's the same way. She's an absolute gangster. And she knows. She's like, 'Hey, when you get done today, we got to talk.' I'm like, 'What is it?' And she's like, 'It's nothing bad.' It'll definitely be something bad. But she doesn't even give me an inkling because she knows it'll rob me of bandwidth. She's like, 'Go do what you do. As soon as you get done, we'll talk.' And on that 20-minute walk, she'll drop it. But now we're here. I'm in a clear headspace. I've had a productive day. We've had a great 10 minutes into this. Now, hit me with the bad news. Last 10 minutes, we'll solve it together. But not getting on that social media first thing in the morning. I used to be the guy. I'd roll over. I immediately open up Instagram and I'm checking it. What are the comments? How's the posting doing? How's this? How's that? You'll stay there for 40 minutes. And then if you see something negative, I'll ride that. I'll wear that jacket all day long. I can't get it away from me. So, I don't take a Zoom call. I don't take a phone call. There's nothing that happens inside of my orbit before 10:00 a.m. From 7 to 10, that's my morning block. I've got the whole team in there. We do fitness from 7:00 to 9:00. I make them all do a 20-minute walk. I make the whole team protein shakes. I take a shower. And at 10 a.m., I walk out. Hit me with it. What do we got to do? We're going to the range and my training and we're shooting content. What are we doing right now? You have full bandwidth until I leave here. And if I run till midnight, we run till midnight. But you have both barrels with me at 100% because I've controlled that entire morning routine. And it's been the best thing that's ever happened to us. But you got to be consistent. It's like everything else. What's the best diet? The one you'll stick to. And that morning routine has been the biggest game changer I've had.
That's awesome. I feel like the teams — and I've been fortunate to know and work with some folks from the teams — seem to have what I call kind of an unconscious genius, like as a whole, as a system. We could talk about BUD/S, we could talk about selection for Tier 1 stuff. We could talk about any of that, and we will. But it seems to me that a lot of the practices that are built up in the teams and in team guys who are successful when they transition out are built around this notion I just call unconscious genius, where they weren't thinking about, like, what's the underlying neural circuitry or this and that. And everything you describe, by the way, is extremely actionable for anybody. I love that you told us — and I'm going to underscore this, highlight it, and bold it right now — is that it doesn't matter if you went to bed at 2:30 a.m. or you went to bed at midnight, you're getting up at the same time is actually critical for keeping sleep rhythms healthy. And one thing from the literature I'll just share is that it's clear that if people have the same wake-up time each day, that whatever sleep they get prior to that wake-up time, you get the maximum amount of growth hormone release that's possible, which is of course crucial for recovery, not just growing muscles, but recovery, etc. So there's that. You guys came to that — there's that kind of, you didn't need to know the science, you just arrived at it. But also the brain is so context dependent, and throughout your description I keep hearing that, you know, if there's — you'll wear that jacket all day long, like it can pull you in. I mean, you're a strong-minded individual, you know how to control your own behavior clearly, but you are susceptible like anybody else. And I always think of mental states as that, you know, we can either be like a ball bearing on a flat surface where that ball bearing can go anywhere with even just the slightest tilt or even a breeze, versus, you know, little dimples in that surface where it can kind of reside, but it could get blown out or pushed out easily. And ultimately what we're all seeking is to drop like a ball bearing into a trench. And rage bait and numbing out, which are the two kind of core features of social media, except there's this other opportunity to learn. I feel like those drop us immediately into that trench. And so I feel like our brain wants to be the ball bearing at the bottom of that trench, but it's tempting to not do the work to get there. And so there are things in the world — highly processed, highly palatable foods, you know, certain aspects of social media, because I don't think all of it is unhealthy — that provide that opportunity to drop into that trench. So clearly the unconscious genius here is that you arrived at, it seems, an understanding that you're very context dependent. You know, it's not that you're so robust internally that you can throw anything your way. It's exactly because you're — if I may — you're not that robust internally that you understand the brain, that you can't let anything come your way. But if you set the context internally, then the rest of your day is maybe not a breeze, but it's workable and you'll stay that ball bearing in the trench that you're determining. Do I have that right?
Okay. So I think this is important because I think a lot of people hear about special operators and high performers and they're structuring their routine and they assume they wake up and they're like, end of the day, nothing's going to bother me. It's because things have the potential to bother you that you have to structure it that way. Okay, for me that's very helpful to hear. And I think you're also defining the difference between an artist — I know a lot of artists who need it, they kind of float about their day. They're two hours late to things and then the stuff emerges, right? I mean, I can tell you stories about people in Los Angeles and how meeting times — and I'm a little guilty of this — but it's incredible the way that things just kind of orbit around certain people and then they bring the magic and so the world continues to orbit around them, versus an operator. And I feel like everything you described is like the essence of being an operator. You're approaching your civilian life the same way, presumably, you did your operating life. So, let's say you have a morning where something goes wrong. There's no toothpaste on the toothbrush, or something more serious, like your wife really needs to talk about something. Maybe she's so, you know, together that that never happens. Will you forgo those minutes, or do you make — or how do you deal with that?
The situation really dictates. When I was in, I'd wake up before everybody else. And it's a lot of stuff I tell to the new guys in special operations. Like, if you sacrifice your sleep when it doesn't affect anyone else, you can really lay the foundation for greatness, right? Your first four years, don't rush to make her your girlfriend. Don't make her your wife. Don't have a kid. Don't get a dog. Just focus on being a Green Beret. Focus on being a Navy SEAL. And just do that. Then when that girlfriend turns into a fiancee, you can have the bandwidth to do them both. It's very hard to do that job. You know, build that boat to the high seas and now you're dragging your wife into it. It's hard to do. But, you know, situation dictates. If it's something I really have to solve, we really have to solve it. But she knows no matter what, I'm unracking at 0700. I'm not missing us for you. I'm not missing for somebody else because she knows what's going to happen. So, she'll either grab me at lunch. 'Hey, do you have a block here? We can talk for sure.' We'll maybe start the initial conversation. And if it starts going south or I think it's going to take long, I'll look down at my watch like, 'Honey, I got to go. I got 12 minutes to be there.' She's like, 'Okay, we'll catch up at lunch.' Cool. And we'll go. I can't miss morning movement. I can't do it. That will ruin my day. And if I'm rushed through morning movement, if somebody comes in, somebody beats on the door and they're like, 'Hey, we were in the neighborhood. Just wanted to come see you. Can we talk for 20 minutes?' No, you can't. No. I'm sorry. And I know it sounds bad. You can't because I know what happens if I miss this day and I'm not willing to take the chance on you right now. You can wait an hour. Wait till I'm done. But it's hard, you know, and now we've kind of restructured the whole day to where I can get my time in in the morning and I can leave with just enough time to see my kids wake up now. They're pouring cereal. So now I get that little dopamine hit of seeing them and I kick off their morning in a positive way. Right? I'm doing red light therapy in the morning. I'm still going to unrack at 0700. I'm still getting up at 5:00, but now I'm just in the house getting everything processed. I'm going to leave on my terms and that way they get to see me first thing in the morning. I only get 3 hours at night. Well, if I get 30 minutes in the morning stacked over the course of a year, that's a huge difference. We've restructured the entire day, but the whole team is also on that exact same schedule, right? It's not just me. It's not just my world and business partners, Cole and everybody else. Everybody who does that morning block of fitness, that's why I've been pushing it this whole time. And if you look at anybody in the military, anybody in the fire department, anybody in special operations, the military in general, everybody's day always starts with fitness. When you're in boot camp, you wake up, you do a workout, and then you eat. When you go to BUD/S, you wake up, you work out essentially all day long, go to sleep. It's the same thing. When you get to the SEAL team, you do the same thing. Everybody wakes up, everybody does fitness the very first thing, and then we start our day. That's been really successful. Why would I ever break that? You see guys when they transition out, they get away from it. They gain a bunch of weight. They start drinking. 'You working out 5 days a week?' 'No.' 'Why? You've been doing it since you were 17 years old. Why would you break it now? Why?'
Yeah. Why do you think that happens?
I think guys use excuses, injuries, limitations, lack of motivation. Like, 'Oh, there's no reason for me to be in shape.' Longevity of life. Everybody says, 'I'd take a bullet with my kids.' You won't lose 40 lbs for them? You won't prolong life? If you think you're a real asset to your family, why wouldn't you try to maximize that time? So, I look at it like, it doesn't take a whole lot. Like, you don't have to be David Goggins. You don't have to run 100 miles a day. You can wake up and do a 20-minute walk every single day, and you'll be better off for it. You could grab a set of kettlebells, 30 minutes in your garage. That is something every single day that makes you exponentially better just through the repetition of being there, being present, being a little selfish right now so you can be selfless later. So for me, if I don't get that workout in — and everybody's got stuff going on. I do, too. If I don't get that block of fitness in, I will think about that all day long. I'll think about it for weeks. We go back the next time we hit that muscle group. I don't get the same numbers I thought I would. Well, that's because I took Monday off. I'm never going to put myself in that position. I don't want to have to have an excuse. So, I just set the foundation. I lay it down. I stamp it on a piece of paper. That's what I'm doing. I'm not compromising on it. And it's been great for us.
That's awesome. I mean, as somebody who got into resistance training in his teens and running, I confess over the years I felt some guilt around working out because in my community of scientists — I mean, now I have a much broader community. You know, you go to meetings, everyone's sitting all day and eating bad food. And then, you know, then it was happy hour. I was never much of a drinker, but I would participate a bit until eventually I just stopped drinking entirely. And occasionally I would sneak off during some of the — I'll just be honest — the weak talks. I was like, I've seen this person speak before. I'm going to get a workout in. And only once did I ever run into a colleague in the gym at one of these places. And we both were like — it was like getting caught doing something bad. But then the years went by and I saw my colleagues start to die. I saw my colleagues start to get sick. I saw my colleagues start to resemble melted candles. And these were people that had a lot of robustness and they also had a lot to offer and families and friends. And so I think nowadays people think about physical fitness a little bit differently. They understand it's an investment and therefore it's beneficial to the people around you. But I still see a lot of people kind of couch it, especially with respect to anything that relates to muscle, as kind of selfish and narcissistic and this kind of thing. And I think it's so important that people understand the mental health benefits but also the benefits that it can bring the people in your life, and not just longevity, but just the person that it brings. You really understand yourself. You know, in the back of my mind I'm thinking about, you know, the oracle, know thyself. It's like so important. If you don't get that workout, you're going to have to force out being best husband, best dad, best teammate. And if you do get that workout, they still get that best dad, everything, but it's that much more genuine and it probably is in abundance.
One of the things that nobody ever talks about is your body awareness. When you do fitness for a long time — 50 years old, you've been doing fitness for a very long time — you are so in tune with that vessel that when something does pop up, you identify right away. When you don't, you're like, 'Um, my back kind of hurts,' or 'Where?' You don't know. I'm in tune with that thing so well that when I walk into a doctor I'm like, 'Take a needle 3 in down, rotate it over 45 degrees and that's where it is.' I'm like, 'Okay, this is it.' I'm so in tune with it. So when anything pops up, I can diagnose it. I can walk in and give them actual feedback on what's happening. I'm not just sitting on the couch all day long, 'Just my neck kind of hurts.' No, I know exactly what it is. I'm doing a full diagnostic approach the entire day. And that's why I've got Vernon. I mean, he's the best strength coach in the world. And if I wouldn't have that guy, I would be — I mean, he's brought me back from the dead more times than I can count. But it's five days a week. I mean, he's in there every day. So, if I walk in and I've got a slight limp on my left side, he's like, 'Hey, my man, come over. What is that?' And I was like, 'I have nothing.' 'Bruised heel.' 'Yeah. How'd you know it's a bruised heel?' He was like, 'I watched that broad jump on Friday. Like, you landed a little funky. I wanted to see if it was going to mess with you.' He ID'd it. I ID'd it. I just wasn't going to say anything. 'Okay, what are you going to do about it?' Right? Be proactive instead of reactive. But that's because you're chipping away and, you know, you're understanding yourself so well because you are constantly in tune with your body and people just forget about it. Like, 'Why aren't you sleeping?' Or 'I had caffeine at 4:00.' Oh, I'm accountable for everything I put in my body and then everything that comes out of me. The gym is just one of the methods that really ties them all together for me.
The body awareness piece, I think, is something that we should also underscore a bit. I think one thing that happens if people don't develop body awareness is that they don't learn the difference between something that hurts and an injury. A few years ago, right before going on Cam Haines's podcast where, you know, you carry that rock — I was about to say he makes you carry the rock. You don't have to. You know, you carry the rock up. The thing's heavy. 72 lbs. Slippery. It's muddy. It's 1,000 ft of elevation. And people do it, right? You can do it. But I popped a hamstring on the hamstring curl machine like a couple days before. But I didn't pop-pop it. Like it didn't unravel up the tendon. So I was like, I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to because that's going to create its own thing. I was like, I'm hurt. It hurt, but I'm not injured. And knowing that line is really important because if you are injured, it'd be the stupidest thing in the world to carry that rock up that hill, right? You end up out for six months potentially or four months. I had years ago a back pain kind of sciatica thing and I couldn't stand up and I actually was online — it was Instagram — and I have no business affiliation to this kid, but there was a — I think he's a chiropractor. He has this channel called Rehab Fix and he convinced me that what I needed to do was some like up-dog things. It looks like you're kind of like humping the floor, you know, your pelvis is down and you're pushing up and repeat those. It's kind of like lizard push-ups, you know. And then against the wall if you can't actually do that from the floor. Within three days, it resolved itself. And I was thinking about pain meds, which I don't like to take. In fact, I avoid them entirely. I was saying, am I going to have to have surgery? I could not stand up. I couldn't move. I couldn't do it. And I realized then, I was like, okay, the line between hurt and truly injured is often kind of blurry. And you need to be able to work through that space. And you think about this through one lens, and it sounds like a selfish thing. Oh, it's all about being able to work out more. You think about it through another lens, it's, you know, people who think they're injured or who are in pain and don't resolve that are very difficult to be around. Very difficult. I've been that person. It's just everything grates on you. And male, female, young or old, people now, you know, they talk about their neck or their sleep, right? And I think being able to suck stuff up is really great. It's also important to know when you have a real issue. And so the body awareness thing, I think, is a gift to oneself. You can avoid a lot of costs, a lot of unnecessary medical interventions. You can know when it's time to take action with proper medical intervention, but also it really allows you to be in life with people without being the person that's always complaining about stuff or is just difficult. I think a lot of people who are difficult are in pain and they don't know how to resolve that pain. And they think they have a problem with pain. So then they take pain medication and that's a whole cycle. So, I just, you know, want to underscore that kind of where we're headed here, it seems again and again is with, you know, what seems selfish is actually one of the most selfless things you can do. Let's talk about what you call unracking at 0700. Tier 1 operator, former Tier 1 operator, the lingo. So that — I'm guessing is that unracking the weight? That's when the workout starts. Phone is off?
Phone's on because we run an app on it. So we have Vernon Griffin.
But you're not looking at text messages. You're not shooting selfies of your calves and biceps, right? I point that out in semi-jest because I always joke that the first rep of every set now seems to be guys in the gym taking pictures of themselves. The last rep of every set seems to be guys taking pictures of themselves. So 0700. So what's that workout look like? You're doing it 5 days a week. I know it's going to be different for different people, but you have this program that I really want to explore with you today about how to measure progress and set standards and meet new standards, higher standards. What does that workout look like for you?
So, I linked up with Vernon right when I was getting medically retired around 2019. I came back from a gnarly shoulder injury. I blew it. I had a dislocation. It came through my armpit. Shredded out everything. And I went from about 215 to about 180 lbs. Got stuck in a rehab clinic in Bethesda, Maryland for 31 days inpatient. And I came out like death warmed over. Worst I've ever been in my life. Worst my mental health has ever been. I did not want to play the game anymore. And the Navy SEAL Foundation hooked me up with this physical rehabilitation program in Virginia Beach run by a former SEAL, and Vernon was the lead strength and conditioning coach. And he was my coach. And we walked in, we did full body assessments. And what's interesting about him is he took all your limitations and developed concepts and movements to establish confidence in that area. So when I came back, you know, day one, he's like, 'Okay, let's try to hang from the bar.' I looked right at him. 'No.' He's like, 'What?' 'No, I'm not hanging from that bar. I'm done. Like, I've done more pull-ups than most people on the planet. My pull-up days are done, man. Like, I'm not doing it again.' He goes, 'You got to trust me. It's not going to happen on day one.' Slowly but surely. I mean, he's at the point where he's holding my knees. I can't even extend my arm overhead. Like, I'm —
That's humbling for a guy that — for a guy who was a Tier 1 operator. That's humbling.
I was so bound up by fear that it was going to come because that was my first shoulder surgery and if you've never had one, shoulder surgeries are the worst rehab I've ever had and I've had a lot of them. The shoulder rehab was brutal and I didn't want it to pop and I'd extend and I couldn't do it and I couldn't do it. And he's like, 'You just got to trust me, man. Like, doctor cleared you. The anchors have set. Everything is there, but you cannot go through the rest of your life like this.' He's like, 'You're not even 40.' He's like, 'Do you want to go another 40 years without doing a pull-up? You're going to have to trust me.' He'd pick me up by the legs. I'd put my arm on there and he'd slowly but surely start to extend me down until we got full range of motion. And we did that for days and weeks. Then we went to a band. Then we took the band off. 'I just want you to hang. Now we're going to focus on going back up.' And we built back to — I mean, I can do sets of 25 pull-ups now.
You're pulling your weight, which is what right now? You're 215. You're 6'1", 215.
And you're doing sets of 20.
Yeah. 20, 25 non-kipping pull-ups. Yep. And it's all bouncing back from him. But the whole program we did, you know, because I'm not a unicorn by any means, but I've had all the injuries that everybody else has had. I've had double hip surgery. I've had double shoulder surgery. I've had my abdomen blown through a couple times. I mean, I've had them all. I've had thumbs I've had to rebuild and blown through. I mean, just everything. When I got electrocuted, it blew out everything. And we had to rebuild that entire thing. So all the guys that are in this process, if you're a SWAT team, a fireman, on a SEAL team, anybody in between, we've all got injuries that become limitations and we just avoid them. You can't avoid them forever. And this program is designed to get you back in shape and it grows with you as you go. So every single week you're chasing numbers from the week before and pushing. On the days you don't have it, on the days you wake up and you're bound up just lacking motivation, we're going with 100% of what we have to offer. That might be 75%. I'm giving 100% of the 75 I have today. But Monday's a pull day from the floor. Usually trap bar deadlifts. And we do those because of all the injuries. I've got a really long torso. It puts my back in a weird precarious situation. So we do trap bar deadlifts. We do those. A lot of pull-up work, a lot of grip work, a lot of core stability stuff. Tuesday's a press day, heavy upper body, bench, incline, that kind of stuff. Wednesday's an upper body, lower body disassociation. So, we get the upper body moving in one direction, the lower body moving the other. A lot of cords, example of that. We'll do a lot of banded work. We'll drop down to a knee, like almost in a shooting position, and we'll do cross-body pulls with bands, resistance training, but just, you know, rotational stuff and sort of anti-rotation stuff. On that day, we'll do plyo stuff, box jumps, height, distance and broad jump, that kind of stuff, farmer's carry walks, all the stuff. Just trying to connect all the dots. Thursday is the most brutal leg day you've ever had. And it's amazing. We got a belt squat machine. So, anybody who walks in, regardless of the injuries, limitations you have, we have equipment to accommodate that.
And when you say brutal leg day, it's just — I have a belt squat. I love that thing. I love throwing a lot of weight on that thing. It's nice. It doesn't load the spine up, but yeah, it's a — I like to think it's brutal. Can you describe — are you talking about like an hour and a half, two hours of —
Usually from seven to nine.
Pretty high repetitions, you know.
So high weight, high repetitions.
Trying to always push, but a lot of single-leg movements, Bulgarian split squats. I mean, a lot of lunges, a lot of lunges with heavy weight. I mean, 70 lbs in each hand for me, that's a lot of weight.
So not calf raises, leg curls?
No, but on some days we'll do a feel-good day. Like some days we'll come in, he'll take a pulse of the whole room and he'll — we're all going to hit the same muscle groups. We're just going to do it in a more traditional way. So, we're going to do hamstring curls, leg extensions. We're going to do belt squats. We're going to do pulsing lunges. Really just pump the blood flow and just chase a really good pump. Everybody loves doing that. And Friday is a really — it's a feel-good day. It's an arm day. We'll do some shoulders, some accessory work, you know, and then we add in sprints in between. Probably two to three days a week. You know, 200-meter repeats, 300-meter repeats.
Done where in the workout? In between sets, at the end?
At the end. Yeah. We always save it at the end. We always did that with the military, too. It always ends with a run. And I've tried every combination doing sprints, you know, pre and post, and it really just zaps a workout for me.
Yeah. Pavel Tsatsouline, you know, Pavel Tsatsouline sat in that chair right where you're at now and said, you know, if your goal is hypertrophy and you're going to come into a pumping workout, it doesn't really matter if you do cardio first or last. But if you're serious about strength and performance and form, do your cardio after, if at all. You know, because a lot of times those kettlebell workouts or some of these leg workouts, they're not quote-unquote cardio, but they definitely get heart rate up in a serious way.
So on Wednesdays, if we're doing a sprint workout, it might be 10 by 40, 50 m sprints, right? Nothing crazy. We'll do that at the very beginning. Get the fast-twitch muscle fibers going and then we'll do whatever the normal Wednesday workout is. Then we go to the flat range every Wednesday. So we train, we bring him out, too. So all the stance, the grip, the presentation, everything we talk about in the tactical setting, he's there with us. So when I talk about flexing your right glute to add stability to a stable shooting platform, he's there driving home. This is why it's important. Think big toe down, drive your heel down. So I mean, he's as much of a coach as I am on the flat range. And he can connect the dots so well. And that's why I love him. He's not going to let you take that limitation and then live it forever. You don't want to be like that. And it doesn't help that he's bigger, stronger, faster than everybody else. So you've always got a good lifting buddy to kind of chase. He always pushes you. But he's so good at navigating the human terrain. Because some days I'll walk in and whatever's happened over the week, he'll see me in the morning. He'll look at me like, 'How we holding up?' I'm like, '100%.' 'Yeah, you ain't. Come over here. What's going on?' I'll talk to him. He's like, 'We'll shake it all out. We've got two hours here. Just us. Nothing else matters. Let's just focus on this.' And I find myself pacing a lot. So, in between sets, I'll block out everything else. I'm not thinking about social, not thinking about my wife, not thinking about the business. I'm thinking about putting myself in the best mental spot to pull that off the floor at 100% with no distractions. And I think that's why I like it so much because it allows me to isolate my thoughts. Nothing else matters. You don't matter. This doesn't matter. Just that movement. Let me get through that the best of my ability. Set it down. Recog around. Get ready for the next one. Here we go. Eight reps. I'm going to put so much intent behind this pull that if I get eight or 12, it doesn't matter. Every single one is all out. And you know, Dorian Yates talks about it. Intensity is what really drives, and I really try to drive intent behind everything I do now. And yeah, he's a huge — man, I can't tell you how many times he's brought me back. I mean, the worst injuries you can imagine. And he's there every single time.
And I think that's why so many people get on with it. They see the injuries you've gone through and it's like, well, you can still perform at a high level.
Only because I'm — I don't want to say I'm even ego-driven. I've been so ingrained into sitting with the routine it doesn't matter what injuries I've had. I mean, I come out and we've got pictures of me in there double slings. Like when I got electrocuted, double slings — I can't even tie my shoes. He's tying my shoes. Like he's putting the belt squat on me. I'm squatting down. He's clipping it in. He's unracking it, the entire thing. Like he's my guy.
Tell us his first and last name.
And you met him when you were injured, right? And he's a former operator as well?
He's not. So his business partner was a former operator. He was actually in the Air Force and transitioned out, got into strength and conditioning, all his certs. And he's got such an interesting look to mobility impact and the high-level athletes that come through him. And that's really what it is. He gets big guys tricked into doing mobility and liking it because nobody wants to do mobility. It's not a sexy thing to do. I mean, we get first-round draft picks that are pouring through that gym all week long. And you see them because it's the truth. Like, we're trying to keep you at a super high level as long as humanly possible. The average guy plays in the NFL, what, three years? But I'm trying to keep you in there for 12. How are we going to do it? You have to maintain that vessel at a super high level because all these young kids are trying to knock you off the team. And then the reality of the sport is trying to knock you off the team as well. So, we got to keep you really, really mobile and healthy. And I've never seen anybody that can connect dots better than that guy. He's an absolute lifesaver.
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The way you describe him and your interactions with him, it almost takes on a sort of mythical-like quality. I mean, like we could be talking about a movie, but this is real and we'll talk about just how real it is. Some very real things have happened to you by virtue of the high-risk, high-consequence career that you undertook. But you know, when you hear about this person who's able to bring back a high performer and then get him to exceed his previous notions of what he could do, and under conditions of duress and hopelessness — it's, you know, this is real life, though. This isn't Star Wars. This is real life. And so without ever having met him, you know, I can feel the respect and the admiration and the gratitude you have for him, and I'm sure everyone else can too. He said, 'This is the stuff of mythology.' But it's real. So, here's what I know about you. You live in Virginia Beach. At one point you were interested in skateboarding and partook in skateboarding. At some point, you decided to become a Navy SEAL. At some point, you got electrocuted. Fill in the blanks for us.
Yeah, man. I was born in San Diego, California. My dad was a SEAL. My mom was in the Navy. So, when my dad graduated, my mom was nine months pregnant with me. So his whole first four years at, you know, the West Coast SEAL teams, I was one of the only kids there. So kind of grew up in the culture, you know, really ingrained into it.
My first — Coronado. Yep. It's my first photo. I'm wearing a SEAL Team One onesie.
I mean, you literally were raised on Coronado. Yeah. So I did that. We moved to the East Coast. He got transitioned over to the East Coast. I grew up the rest of my time there. Fell in love with skateboarding. That's all I wanted to do. I wanted to go pro. Got into a fight with the old man around 15 years old, something like that. And he signed me up for summer school to graduate early. So I graduated at 17, hit the delayed entry program, joined the Navy a month later.
Was that a contentious interaction? I mean, skateboarding was clearly not the right career for you. I mean, I'm sure you would have done exceedingly well there, but having grown up a bit in that culture and also knowing a bit about the culture, you eventually decided on — you know, it's hard to say which one is the better career choice. One is definitely more life-threatening, which is the — in many ways. But you just said, 'Okay, like, you're a Navy SEAL. You want me to be a Navy SEAL, so I'm going to hang it up.' It was always in the back of your mind like that was always what you thought you were going to do. But at 15 years old, in your mind, you can do them both. You're like, 'Oh, I can be a professional skateboarder and then I can be a Navy SEAL later.'
You don't realize what it actually takes to do it, even though you grow up in the culture. So, when that happened, you know, the towers that just fell, I was 17 years old, delayed entry program, straight out to Coronado, got through SEAL training, came back to the East Coast where I've been essentially my whole life. And yeah, joined the Navy in 2002 and got medically retired in 2019, right around 17 years. I think it was 16 years and like 10 months, something like that.
Can I ask you about BUD/S? A lot of people have heard of BUD/S and they understand that it has a hell week with minimal if any sleep, you know, maybe an hour or two tops, but probably not even that. How hard was BUD/S relative to other things that you did in the teams? You know, I've heard people say it was the hardest thing they ever did. I've heard some people say it was extremely hard but not nearly as difficult as like some aspect of — like guys who hate the jungle and humidity or like that was worse. And you never know if people are joking around. I mean, did you learn a lot in BUD/S about yourself?
If you can make it through BUD/S, you can do anything. It is such a brutal program. And I just — I had a week just secured and I saw a bunch of the guys, took them out to the vendor the other night and I was explaining to a group of civilians that were out there with them, like their parents, like, you guys all see it. Every single person that does that pipeline — it's not just BUD/S. It's, you know, the Q course for Green Berets. It's RIP for the Rangers. MARSOC selection. Every single kid that's doing that selection program is the biggest deal in his hometown, the biggest thing in his high school. Everybody knows he's going. And the amount of external pressure riding on that kid — unless you've done it, you have no idea. You just don't. It's like playing D1 college ball. Everyone in your family is expecting you to be a pro. They're expecting you to be in the NFL. And if you don't get drafted, it's like, oh my god, it's so much pressure on you. It's the same way. And it's self-selection because people quit. They're not in general, they're not asked to leave. Although that can happen.
So if somebody doesn't make it through BUD/S, it means they quit.
Yep. Pretty much. And it's a lot of pressure, right? The GWOT just kicking off. All the instructors were coming back from Afghanistan and they were larger than life. I mean, you really look up to them. And I was just very fortunate that I grew up in the culture and I knew a lot of the guys going in, so I knew what the end state was. Most of these kids are from Buxton, Mississippi. You've never even seen a Navy SEAL in real life until you showed up here. I grew up with one. All my family friends were SEALs. We didn't have a single civilian friend growing up. The only thing I've been around were commandos. So, I felt really natural around that environment, but I knew it was going to suck. I just knew it was.
Did your dad have you run with him and doing push-ups and things like that at home, or was it mow the lawn and then go skateboarding?
You know, mow the lawn, go skateboarding, then as we transitioned, we got closer, it was turn it on, download the Stew Smith Guide to Navy SEAL Prep and did that like everybody else did. It's a phenomenal program for anybody who's trying to go. But I was so young. I was so immature. Didn't have a cell phone. Didn't have a car. I lived on the barracks. And the only thing you had to do was get through the program. But what I will say is the 17-year-old me that showed up in 2002, if I would try to be a Navy SEAL in 2025, they wouldn't even take me. My performance scores — like, you have to pass a screen test, push-ups, pull-ups, run, swim, the whole thing. Your scores now have to be so competitive they wouldn't even take me.
Oh, so the standards have changed.
The standards are the same, but the people going through the program are so much better prepared they wouldn't even take me.
So if you're not — if you're not 120 push-ups —
120, they don't even look at you. Like for me, I basically barely scratched through. I was a strong swimmer, but technique wasn't my thing. And until you take the test, you don't realize how hard it is. And I got through it. I went out to BUD/S and I was successful. But I was by no means a star athlete. And you've got guys, you know, Coleman Ruiz, Naval Academy. They are freaks. They're phenoms. They are professional athletes. And there you are, 6'1", 145 lbs, pot-smoking skateboarder. We are not on the same level. But mentally, you couldn't mess with me. I didn't care. Like, we're getting surf tortured. And you'd watch these guys who were just these studs get up and quit like it's not going to stop. And I felt like I always had the inside scoop. Like, if you think this is going to end, it's not. Like, my dad did a lot of diving. I was like, I've seen the conditions he dove in, breaking through the ice. Like, it is only going to get worse, dude. If this phases you, this is not the program for you. And I was right. If that phases you, the SEAL team is going to chew you alive. So, not everybody should make it through that program. I was just fortunate enough, just good enough to get by. And, you know, maturity came later. BUD/S was definitely not the hardest thing I've ever had to do. At the time it was. And when you get through it and you see all the — you start with 200 and something people, you graduate less than —
It's those are 200 of the most physically capable people of that year in the United States Navy and they couldn't make it. Did any of the people that not made it through as well as made it through surprise you for not making it through or making it through?
Not making it through for sure. I mean all the guys that they You've been around Captain America's Navy Seals have a certain look. They have a certain mystique, a certain or and they do in training, too. It's not like you just develop that. You've had it your whole life. And there were definitely guys you look at that look like Dolph Lundgren from Rocky. You look at him, you're like, 'Oh, that dude is definitely going to make it.' He's gone in 20 minutes. You're like, 'How? He passed everything. He didn't like that cold water.' Like, okay. And then you see another guy who he was in worse shape than me, barely squeak by everything and he is the hardest dude you ever met in your life. Nothing phases him. Every run, every swim, just miserable. He doesn't care. Like he he's just kind of...
It sounds like you have to not mind being miserable.
You have to get used to it. You have to embrace it. It's going to suck. It's supposed to. And you just got to tell yourself it's worth the price of admission. It's going to be miserable. You bought the ticket. You're going to get the whole show and it's totally worth it, but you got to be there at the end.
You mentioned Coleman Ruiz who's been a guest on this podcast as a good friend of mine and and yours as well and you worked with him and um I'm probably going to get this a little bit wrong but I think once he said uh because I think he was an instructor at BUDS also for a short while. I think he was um and I think he said you know when you look at the guys that make it through BUDS nine times out of 10 they've had at least one of the following three things: either spent some serious time in detention in high school, played a varsity sport in high school, divorced parents, and you know, that raises a whole bunch of other questions about, you know, friction and and um kind of, for lack of a better way to put it, like some internal sense of like f you, I'm going to push through this anyway, or just f you to something. So when when you're going so let's assume that Coleman having given the fact that he's not a scientist he's he's a former operator so he knows um do you think that there were there were moments or many moments where it was um you against them like you and your teammates cuz you're you're you know you're on boat crew or whatever with with your teammates. You're working as a team and learning how to do that. It's not just about you. It's about the group. Um and it's about you and it's about the expectation. But how many different bins of motivation do you do you have to access to get through BUDS? Is it and is f you to the instructors or whoever to the cold water is that part is that a critical bin?
It is and it isn't because sometimes you get caught up in the moment. You don't even think about it. You just want to finish that evolution. So when you're doing a four mile timed run, that was one of the big things is you have to do a four mile timed run. It's got to be I think a seven minute mile or less. And nowhere in does it say the condition of the beach matters. So if it's high tide, low tide, you have to run it on the berm and soft sand. The time standard is a time standard and talk to anybody. At any point in that training, you are going to hit a wall where you think your heart's going to stop. Like if I take one more step, I'll die right here cuz your heart rate's so high and you're like, I can't do it. And at some point, you just don't care. You're like, I'd rather fall stone cold dead in front of all them and die right here than I would failing or quitting.
Yeah. At least you don't have to go home head hanging in shame.
Exactly. You just push anyway. Sometimes you'll get it, you'll be getting surf tortured by the instructors and you're just laying down that 60 degree water just miserable. And I tell the story quite a bit. We had dudes getting up and leaving mass casualties just in the biggest, strongest dudes. It's broad daylight, 70 degrees on Coronado Island, the most beautiful day you've ever seen. We're laying there just jackhammering and you look over and all the West Coast SEAL teams are out to your right and you can see SEAL Team One out there doing log PT for like their morning PT and you can look down to the left and you can see the Hotel del and this little what I call a seven-year-old with a big pink flamingo jumping in the water having the best time of their life and I'm like it's all about your perspective, be a palace or a prison however you want to see it right now. That kid is having the time of their life and we're in the exact same water. Just change your mindset. This is all part of the process. And if you want to wear that shiny gold thing on your chest, you must do this. Just do it. And I remember that was one of the things like you're not going to break me. No matter what you say, I'll die right here in this water. I don't care. And that kind of that mindset has really been beneficial throughout the entire process because there's parts of there's parts of BUDS and parts of being in special operations where you think it's going to kill you and then a certain point you just don't care. If it kills me, it kills me. I don't care. And you get through it. Like, you know, I'm so terrified of heights. Like, I can't jump out of the back of this airplane. You watch 15 guys going in front of you and you get right to the ramp. You go, I don't care. And you just, for whatever reason, they just jump. Like, what made you jump? Everybody else did it. I didn't want to be the guy who said no. Sometimes that that performance anxiety, that pressure to perform on demand, it it gets you through the hump and it shows you there is nothing if it can be done by a human being, I can do it. And it just it rings true. It's like, how far can you run? As far as I have to. Well, how fast can you run? As fast as I can. Like, if you can run that, I can run it. If you can get up and over that mountain, I can do it, too. How you going to do it? One step at a time, brother. Here we go. And it it makes you so mentally resilient. And I think that's the that's really the defining factor is you can make them believe in their mind they can get through anything. Now, collectively as a group, now you stack 25 of those true believers together, you can do anything. And I've seen some dudes do some herculean feats and they do it just because they're too afraid to say no. Can you do that? Yep. You sure? If it can be done, I'll do it. I've seen it time and time again. Yeah. I mean, everybody hits those moments in BUDS where it's just I cannot believe I'm doing this right now. But it's magic once you get through it. It's awesome.
I mean, I I think uh setting a threshold for uh if it kills me, it kills me is uh in many contexts is unhealthy. But in that context is yeah healthy adaptive. Let's call it adaptive. I I'm not going to decide what's healthy or unhealthy. I'm sure some people are listening to this and they think like this is how this is how guys get themselves killed and and indeed outside of the context of BUDS.
That's yeah sometimes guys do dumb stuff.
I always say um there's something about having a Y chromosome that through you know I wasn't around tens of thousands of years ago but I'm guessing the first Homo sapien male who picked up a rock the first thing he did hit himself in the head with it was like ouch then he hit the guy next to him with it and go ouch and then they decide to take it and throw it against a wall and see what happens and on and on and here we are you know and obviously you know those with two X chromosomes took a different path and we need that we need the collaboration in order to survive as a species obviously but there's something about that. Let's just see what happens if and if it kills me, it kills me. That actually is a core feature of human evolution that's brought us to some incredible positive places. So, clearly BUDS is is a one such micro environment. Um, so you make it through and then I realize there are a lot of other iterations. There's Jump School and there's a bunch of other things and um you go off and you you start opting right away.
Yeah. Yeah, I get stationed at SEAL Team 10 in uh Virginia Beach, Virginia, and we deploy in 2005. The Iraq war just kicked off, so we I check in and I was early '04 and we deployed um yeah, we deployed probably 7 months later, sent to Iraq was phenomenal. Everything you ever wanted to be scary, like you don't know anything. The IED is really bad and just being a really young kid. I mean, I was stormtrooping out of Iraq at 19 years old. I mean, you forget how young you are at 19.
So, you're 19, you're kicking doors down.
Yeah. I'm driving in Humvees, blowing stuff up. And seeing friends get blown up. If you talk to anybody who was in Iraq, the chances of you not hitting an IED were so rare. And we never hit one. They'd hit the convoy in front of us, the one behind us. We'd get delayed at the gate for 2 minutes. We'd turn and boom, they'd go off in front of you. They're just not hitting. They're hitting everybody else but you. And you know, you would tell yourself things like, 'Oh, the reason they're not doing it is because we look so aggressive because we have flames and death skulls on the Humvees.' It's not that, man. It's just it's not your time. You be the best trained dude in the world. That IED hits you, the lights are over. And on that deployment, we lost all the guys in Operation Red Wings in Afghanistan. That was the other half of our SEAL team. That wasn't IED. That was the helicopter.
The uh the um now I don't know whether I'd call it famous or infamous. Forgive me. I'm going to step in it one way or the other. Uh Lone Survivor. Amazing book, I should say. I really I really enjoyed the book that the movie does a I think a pretty good job of extracting some of the the key moments from the book, but um more than a movie or book. It's a true story. Um and that's the the four guys that got um three of them got killed on the ground and then one helicopter blown up attempting to come save them.
Uh to save the the one guy.
Yeah. Marcus. And that was so hard to wrap your head around as a 19-year-old. So you got to think, you know, in my mind, I'd essentially been in the community for 19 years up at that point. And during my dad's time, it was peace time the whole time. So you weren't going to funerals all day long. Like Navy Seals getting killed was it was like folklore. It's like oh it's a bad training a bad parachute accident. You know we had Neil Roberts got killed in the early GWOT in Afghanistan. Roberts Ridge you ever heard of that story? That's a gnarly one. Britt Slabinski got the Medal of Honor. John Chapman the Air Force guy got the Medal of Honor. Gnarly firefight. But outside of that it wasn't happening very often. And then when all those guys got killed in one shot, it was like a slap of reality. They were the best dudes you ever seen. Like they were the highest like unbelievably trained, unbelievably experienced and they're gone in an instant. No goodbye, no fanfare, no, you know, holding him like tell my mother. It's nothing like Hollywood. They're gone. And that was kept under wraps for a long time before the book and the movie. I mean, people really didn't know. There wasn't a lot of discussion about SEALs. And uh no, like it wasn't in popular culture. And when the book came out, it started to gain steam and people started to, you know, read more about it. But for being inside the SEAL teams, that was your own private 9/11. Every single SEAL cried in an instant, throwing up. I mean, just you cannot believe that just happened. And then for everybody else who's still fighting the war, you have to try to explain to your wife and your family why that's not going to happen to you. And it's a lie. It's not like they did anything wrong. That's just the way it is. Sometimes it just happens.
You were married at this point.
I wasn't. Single. Thank God.
Intentionally. Yeah. Yeah. I I try to wait as long as humanly possible and try to do that.
Good advice, but you know, it's hard.
It's hard to try to It's hard to do that job at full-time and trying to be a full-time boyfriend that turns into a fiance that turns into a husband, turns into a father. It's very hard unless you're able to compartmentalize really, really well. And fortunately for us, that's the thing you're the best at is I can wall it off so fast and never think about you again.
Now, when you transition out of the military, that's not really a superpower anymore, but in a moment it served you. So, as more and more guys are getting killed, um, did you find that getting into action each day, the same way that you described civilian life now, um, and getting into action each day, being really adaptive, did you find that that was key to being able to not go down mental traps? Um, and at the same time, I I acknowledge that you must have also just been really busy. There's stuff coming at you all the time. Like just because I mean it sounds cold, but just because guys get killed doesn't mean that the the op tempo stops. In fact, it probably picks up even more.
You go out the next you have to you got to keep going. You got to get back on the horse. Keep them going. The last thing that we wanted is those guys get killed. Well, let's pull them all back. Let's take, you know, 6 months to, you know, regroup. No, no, no, no, no. We got to go out right now. Same thing with the parachute accident. I told you about the the electric. I got to do it right away. If I don't get back on the horse, I'll just build up this this dread and I'll lose my confidence in the whole process. Like, we have to go. And NSW did. Everybody did. Full gas, full steam ahead. Let's go. And just kept going. We did another one in 2007. If you've seen the stuff with uh Jason Redman, I talked about my buddy Matt shot up. That 2007 deployment was dicey. But it's the same thing. Like two of your close friends. Yeah. And you know, pretty pretty mangled, crazy mangled. And you know, you start to find out really, really fast. It doesn't matter how much you train, if your number's called, you're getting pulled. And it's hard to justify because now you have a girlfriend, you have all this stuff, and people are dying, and you have to reassure them why it's not going to happen to you. And you get really good at compartmentalization. Like, I can't control that. The only thing I can control is this. I'm shooting as much as I can. And I'm doing as much CQB as I can. I'm jumping as much as I can. I'm around the boys building team camaraderie as much as humanly possible because I can't control anything else. Control the things you can control. Building confidence. But reality, when it slaps, it slaps hard and definitely slapped us.
As the public understanding of like what the seals even were and are started to grow and change and the movies, the Lone Survivor movie. And I actually think it they again I think they did a good job with the movie. I know the book and the movie were approved by the military. So there was a lot of um kind of vetting of the of the material but I think I think it um hit powerfully. At the time I was living in San Diego so you know the movie theaters were packed but that was true everywhere. I mean it made a big impact. Um, but then with like the the Bin Laden thing, you know, being, you know, the televising, the the White House watching and, you know, I feel like the whole world came to understand that there were these guys called Navy Seals and they're doing this really dangerous uh stuff and um taking out bad guys. Um, was there anything that changed about the job just knowing that it wasn't as uh as vaulted as it once was? I mean, what you're doing is vaulted on a day-to-day basis, but you know, just this idea like this is in movies and they there it is and covers CNN. There's Obama and you know, Secretary of Defense watching the op, you know, and and people then there's a movie made about it very quickly and uh it was I mean it was all happening in it was weird in real time and on the movies and it just for a civilian it was a little bit of a of a mind bend. And I can't even imagine what it was like if that's your job. And so much of being able to perform the job well relies on people not knowing what you're doing and how you do it. What was that like?
Terrible. Terrible. I mean, the very next day you couldn't drive on the compound. Every news channel across America was sitting outside of that thing. And not only they taking photos, everybody comes in, they know what you look like. They're looking for guys with long hair, beards covered in tattoos, driving jack, you know, jacked up pickup trucks. That's what they're looking for. And now you can't go anywhere. Now they're going out in town to all the bars and restaurants you go to and they're pulling you aside asking you. It's like it's very uncomfortable. They'll see wives in there with a little trident stick on the back of their car. They'll nail her in the Whole Foods parking lot. Your husband a Navy Seal. It's nobody's ever done this before. It's like mum's the word. Everybody kind of just collapsed on ourselves and really really tried to hush this thing down. But it made the job very very difficult. It felt like you were just under microscope the entire time. And then when Extortion happened, then everybody started that it was an inside job. You know, they Come on, man.
I know it's probably not something you want to get into, but maybe just explain for people what Extortion 17 was and um why that was so additionally impactful uh after what happened with Operation Red Wings.
Yeah. I mean, you know, we had Operation Red Wings that happened June 28, 2005. You had a bunch of really historic things that led up after that. You had the rescue of Captain Phillips in 2009. That was a huge milestone win. Like everybody's goal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they made a movie. They made a movie and it's great. And like but nobody in the teams is on social media. They're not on I didn't watch a YouTube video my entire time in the SEAL teams. Like what do I watch a YouTube video for? Like nobody knew how bad it was spinning outside of your control. And nobody. Bin Laden happens. Um, and then August 6th, 2011, we lose an entire troop of guys in Afghanistan. Hilo gets shot down, kills them all in an instant. Killed 31 total people. And it was like we were reliving June 28th again. But now it's double as bad. And now you truly have the best that I've ever suited up. If you look at the experience level they have, most of those guys were pre-9/11 guys. 10, 12 combat rotations gone. You'll never replace it. Never. You've never filled that void since that moment. And then you have all these people just hateful rhetoric like, 'Oh, it was an inside job.' And you know, they they knew too much. They knew they were on the Bin Laden raid, so we killed them. It's Do you know how hard that is to live in Virginia Beach doing that job, seeing those wives at Whole Foods wearing a Memorial T-shirt, knowing you're saying that? Do you know what that does to a family? You know what that does to little kids who wake up and they read the comment section. Mom, was dad killed? Yeah. Was he killed by the government? That's what they read because that's what you're saying and it's not the truth. It's just not. That was an op that went wrong. It's a dangerous job. And when you fly in those big gigantic black helicopters and they're slow to land, you can shoot them. And that's what happened. And this it's as simple as that. It's a dangerous job. Like what are you going to do? But it is very hard to live in Virginia Beach that is so small. Everywhere you go, it's around you. I mean, you're sifting through black t-shirts all day long. Which memorial shirt are you going to wear? It just is. And now you get there now people are starting to erode that from you and it really starts to lose your confidence. So for me now I'm married, I'm in the organization. We had to fill we had to fill a lot of those guys from other squadrons and one of my best friends had to go over and unfortunately he got killed in uh December 8th, 2012 on a hostage rescue. Ed Byers got the Medal of Honor for that operation. My buddy got the Navy Cross and you know we went to BUDS together. His name was Nick Chee. One of the greatest, most pure operators you have ever met. Came from Pennsylvania, big wrestler, always in a gym, always training. He he represented what the essence of being a Navy Seal was and everyone knew it. When he died, a piece of me died that I've never gotten back. I'm trying not to cry. The hardest thing I've ever had to do was look at my wife and tell her that it wasn't going to happen to me after he died because he was the true north. So when she looks at me and she goes, 'Well, the reason you're away from us, the reason you spend 300 days on the road is because you're perfecting his craft because you say it buys down the risk.' What about that? And you can't justify it. And you just look at it, you're like, 'I just hope it's not my time. I'm just going to try to exhaust all my resources right now to put myself in the best position surrounded by the best people to buy down as much risk as humanly possible. If my number's called, it's called. What do you want me to do?' And that's where the compartmentalization really took hold. You have to be able to leave Virginia Beach, your wife, your two kids, and completely block them out. Like, I can't run through that door with bullets coming out of it thinking about my wife and kids and how I'm going to orphan them. You can't. I don't have pictures in my room. I'm not trying to FaceTime all the time. I'm trying to separate myself out so I can just do this job. And it makes you it makes you really distant. It makes you not be the person you want to be or the person you used to be because you can't.
Well, you being the person you need to be in order to eventually be able to go back and become the person you want to be is what it sounds like to me.
And you know, I I say to the guys now, and it'll sound messed up, so forgive me, but I never chased a guy who had a perfect family. There was never a Navy Seal I ever wanted to emulate who had the picture perfect family ever. They were all either on their second marriage, bad relationship with their kids because they were so devout at work and you looked at him like that's a master class. Like it's like watching Tiger Woods drag around his golf bag. Like that's the best it's ever been ever. And he has no 50/50. There is no dial for that man. He is living this at 100% in the moment he retires. I really hope he takes all that energy, all that focus, and becomes a better husband and father, but you can't do it both ways. My mind has come to change now, but I've never seen it. And I most certainly had no balance. I wasn't even trying to find balance. I was trying to wall them off as much as humanly possible to focus on the task at hand because any distraction was dangerous and it's hard to do, but it was necessary at the time.
Yeah. I don't know any high performers especially ultra high performers and especially especially ultra high performers in high-risk high consequence careers uh that don't have some unresolved dark aspect of themselves or their life or something that I mean you mentioned Tiger you know it's public knowledge he had issues outside of his golf game and it sounds like he's resolved those I think he got married again recently and you know I think everyone should wish him the best and them the best you know it's like you know especially in the United States We hold people up um and we expect perfection from our so-called heroes historically as well as ones that are alive and um perfection doesn't exist right because so much of what's required from high performance is um total focus total compartmentalization and that being a human being is a lot more uh complicated than that um it's something I think to keep in mind. I also just want to uh just briefly double click on this this thing about comments. You know, I'm not going to tell people to stop saying mean stuff about me if they want to or mean stuff about somebody. They're going to do it anyway. Um it's not the the issue. But when it comes to kids reading about their dead parents, their dead dads in this case, um and last week we had a, you know, public assassination. there's a dead dad and people making up theories and um coming up with ideas that they somehow know things that other people don't know. Um and sometimes these people have a professional background in politics or in the military or in uh law enforcement and it adds additional weight to these these theories. But the the repercussions on the on the kids and family and and the legacy is it's uh it's really bad. It's really bad. It's a shame there isn't a thicker filter. I'm all for free speech. Um 100% for free speech, but um there's a lot of damage done with those those thumb clicks that I don't think people can really comprehend. So I'm glad you you you pointed that out.
I mean Yeah. I mean, just imagine it like you're a 14-year-old kid and you've grown up worshiping your father and he gets killed in Afghanistan and you see a post about him. You start to read down like he was killed by his government by this and this and like mom mom it raises doubt and then that little seed of doubt is going to be with him forever. It's like it takes the entire collective to like listen to me. They they've never even met a Navy Seal dude. That's some kid in the middle of nowhere who's typing in his mother's basement who's just writing some hateful stuff. It's not real. It's hard to block it out when there's 500 of them or guys that were in the military that didn't make it through selection. they're pissed or um have some resentment for some guy that was jacked in high school who said something and they didn't get the date or you know I mean it's like resentment is like a the ego and resentment are a bitter combination last you know can last a lifetime.
Negative comments many times are irrelevant but in this context uh have a potential lasting very very um corrosive aspect. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over a hundred biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption. I've been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. So, you're opting, guys are dying, you now have a family, and it's in your family lineage to do this job. Um, I'm curious, you know, was the fact that your dad was a team guy, did that feel like pressure or did it feel like buoyancy or neither?
Did you feel like you had to outdo him? And I would ask that of anyone, military or not, there's this notion Well, let me just briefly back up. A friend recently, we were talking about kids and family and building family. And uh and he said, 'Uh, you don't want a son. You got daughters. He has all daughters.' I go, 'No, you know, I think I'd like, you know, want to be her, but who cares? I'd have daughters. I have sons. You know, I don't care.' And he said, 'No, cuz if you have a son, he's going to he's going to try and be better than you and then you're going to be in conflict.' And I was thinking, I almost said, 'No.' And then I was like, 'My dad's a scientist.' And so I was like, 'There's a point in your life where you go, can I fill those shoes? Can I exceed those shoes?' cuz it's natural human son to father behavior I think. And so was there ever a moment where you're like I got to I got to exceed or um or just or was it irrelevant?
I think it was irrelevant but just because the timing you came in you know spent his entire time at peace time. I did nothing but combat the entire time. a lot of deployments back and back back never took a shore duty station just by that amount of experience you already surpassed it but it doesn't need to be said.
Why not leave guys your one of your closest mentors and friends gets killed I mean the retirement plan I'm guessing is pretty good but it's not that awesome that's a plug for the military to increase the retirement salaries and you get some medical care right you know some things come to your family for staying in 20 years, I think it is. Um, but did the thought ever cross your mind like, 'Hey, guys are dropping off and you're right in the center of it.' Um, maybe leave.
