I know men that legitimately will say like, 'No, man. I really want depth of connection now.' And I'm like, 'Then why are you running around with all of these Instagram models?' Like, you're driving down the road, you realize you're lost. Don't hit the gas. Stop. Look at the map. Figure out where the [__] you went wrong.
I've never seen so many people be so cynical about love. And what's with all the unsolicited relationship advice from all the non-experts on the internet? I want someone who tells me the truth. Like, once a cheater, always a cheater. True or false?
I think of course we're all [__] terrified. Loving is like an act of defiance.
I think women were terribly misled in the last 20 years.
I sat down with a divorce lawyer who wrote a book about how to preserve love based on years of litigating divorces and watching relationships crumble. We know what the red flags are. We know how to spot narcissists. We know what we don't like. This is an episode offering hope to those of us who want love. Because what's the alternative? Not having it.
All of these things we're doing, all these walls we're building to keep the pain out are keeping everything down. They're keeping all the warmth out, too. They're keeping all the depth. Like, you have to risk being hurt to love. We all kind of want the same things, but we're all so understandably nervous and the algorithm is beating the [__] out of that.
So, I think the way to fix it is...
This is Beyond the Interview with James Ston.
Beyond the Interview is a show where we delve into topics that help you get ahead. Stuff we should have learned in school but didn't. I'm using this podcast to interview the smartest, most interesting, most influential thinkers and builders of our time. If you're not already subscribed, please hit the subscribe button now so we can keep all this education free and you can stay up to date.
James Sexton, baddest divorce lawyer in the game.
I'll take that. I mean, as long as the bad in the non-pejorative sense, like if you're like, 'Ooh, he's kind of a bad divorce lawyer.' Like, no, that's the divorce lawyer baddie, the baddest and I think the most honest...
That might be. But being the most honest divorce lawyer is like being the best-looking leper or the tallest little person. Like it's sort of, you know, it's like damning with faint praise. But I'll take it. Listen, I'll take it. I'm late middle-aged. I'll take any compliments that get thrown my way from anybody. So...
You know, the first time I saw you, it was on Soft White Underbelly.
That's true for a lot of people.
And when I watched the first five minutes, I was early to you. I just want to take that.
Um, I watched the first five minutes of that interview and I was kind of triggered by it.
Mhm. The first five minutes should be triggering. Yeah. Because I forgot that the cameras were rolling and just started chatting with Mark, which is what made that interview so powerful is it was so authentic.
But the way Mark does it. I've now recorded with Mark six times, so I've kind of come to understand how it works with Mark. But that first time I had no idea, like we just walked in and sat down and it was like this. I just forgot that there were microphones or cameras. And he's a divorced guy. I'm a divorced guy. And the opening discussion was about, you know, when we both went through divorce, like how you get out of a relationship and the first thing you do is you just go out and try to sleep with as many women as you could. And I was just being very honest about that. And he chose to open the interview with that. And I have to tell you, I remember watching the first few minutes of it and going, 'Oh my god, that is not the way I want to be portrayed.' Like I was trying to just... But you know what? It was real. It was honest. So I don't hide from it.
It was both real and honest. And I'm the type of person that when I do get triggered by something, I keep going.
I'm not resistant to a different opinion. I think that differentiates you from a lot of people and also particularly women and women in the ecosystem of the varying forms of social media, because I think there are a lot of people that just want to hear people agree with them and they want to defend people's right to agree with them and when they see something that they disagree with they're instantly like, 'This person has nothing of value to say to me.' And like you, I've never been that kind of person. Like I have people I care deeply about and consider friends that I think their views are completely wrong on most things in really profound ways.
Yeah. I think that has to do with the fact that I was kind of raised by Chris Voss in the past five years. Like he was a mentor to me. I worked with him a lot and his whole thing is learning how to negotiate and talk to people and you have to be tolerant.
Yeah. Yeah. So, and you have to be, I think, energetically open to finding a point of connection. I mean, I think what makes Chris such a brilliant speaker, negotiator, I mean, and really, he could put that skill set to use at almost anything. He could be the best salesman in the history of sales.
If he wanted to be, I think he's applied the skill set to what he wants to apply it to. But he's somebody who has just figured out how to understand someone's energy and, okay, here's what they need from this interaction and here's what they're trying to accomplish in this interaction and here's what they need me to be and here's how they see themselves and what they want to be. And I think it's very similar to the skill set of a trial lawyer because a trial lawyer, I've always said my job is to manipulate people's emotional state.
For sure. And you know what I think you both have in common is you're not really politically or algorithmically programmed. I don't see you as fitting. Like I can't look at you and tell you where you stand politically. I have no idea. And I love that.
You know, I could tell you're a critical thinker.
Well, and where I stand politically would be very frustrating to anyone who agrees with most of my views because I'm not left enough for my left friends and I'm not right enough for my right friends. And I have views that would appear to be contradictory, but I actually see them as an honest union of contrary concepts. Like I think anyone who has too much continuity to their personality is full of [__]. Like what they're trying to do is they're trying to fill a mold. Like they're trying to, okay, this is what a person like me should believe and if I believe this, I should also believe this and also believe this. And I don't know that that's always true. I can have in my... and maybe it's a function of having argued both sides of so many things professionally for 25 years at the highest level. You start to realize that, you know, if only there were these profound truths and that's all it is. But the opposite of a true statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth is usually a different profound truth.
And so you just have to find a way to hold potentially contrary thoughts in your mind. And I don't think it's that hard. I think the world is easier when you treat it like pro wrestling where there's good guys and bad guys and it's very defined which is which.
Meaning it's a game. I mean, I think people prefer simplicity over authenticity.
What do you mean by that?
I think people like simple answers to complicated questions. Like, people don't want to read a book. They want a Rumi poem. Like, they want something that's a meme. Like, they want short little bits of wisdom. They don't want complicated, nuanced thought. They don't want complicated answers to complicated issues. Like they want incredibly simple answers to complicated issues, but the truth is everything's pretty complex.
I mean, I think that human emotional complexity is undeniable. We all, if we're being honest, have in us, you know, the angels of our better nature and the angels of our worst nature. Like, I've represented perpetrators of domestic violence and I've represented victims of domestic violence. I've represented people who are married to someone with a significant substance use disorder and I've represented people who have significant substance use disorder. And if you spend enough time in the room, like the cheater and the cheated on, and if you spend enough time putting yourself in the head of each of those people because your job is to advocate for their position and help them be understood, you start to realize that we have in us, all of us, we're capable of atrocity and we're capable of beauty and compassion. And I know that's true of myself. Like if you judge me as a parent by my greatest moment of parenting, you're giving me too much credit. And if you judge me by my worst, weakest, most impatient moment, you're not giving me enough credit. Same thing in relationship. If you judge me by the most lovely, beautiful gesture that I made in relationship where I was deeply connected and present, or if you judge me at the most buffoonish, awful, selfish thing I did in relationship, like you're giving me too much or too little credit. The truth is I'm the aggregate of all of those things when we add it all up.
But I think the reason we're so afraid of our opposition in this current climate, like our political opposition, our ideological opposition, is we know there are elements of truth to what they're saying. And that makes us wildly uncomfortable, you know. And like women know the criticisms men are making of women in the red pill space are accurate, and men know the criticisms women are making about them in the pro-feminist space are to some degree accurate. Like they're not 100% true and they're not 100% applicable to 100%. But we know, yeah, there's some nuggets of truth there and that makes us wildly uncomfortable. You don't have to be afraid of your opposition.
Because you know when AOC says, 'I hate Donald Trump,' it doesn't hurt Donald Trump. Donald Trump's like, 'Yeah. You see, guys, AOC hates me. I must be doing something right.' And vice versa. Vice versa. When Trump says, 'I hate AOC,' it's good for AOC's brand.
What Trump has to be afraid of are the people in the Republican party who are critical of Trump. What AOC has to be afraid of are the people in the Democratic party who go, 'I don't agree with her view. I think it's too extreme.' Like that's your real enemy is the people in your party who diverge from your point of view and who are about to split off and go to the other side because they don't like you.
And that's the data. Well, it's not even that. It's that they demonstrate that you're part of something extreme. And that's the thing. None of us want to acknowledge that the algorithm and the ecosystem of social media and media in general, whether legacy media or new media, is all about amplifying conflict. Because at the end of the day, I genuinely believe like trans people are not as worried about what bathroom they get to use as the ability to make a living wage and have health insurance and live free from being assaulted. And that's the same set of priorities that a truck driver in a MAGA hat has. Like they want to be able to pay their bills, make a living wage, have health insurance, take care. Like, and if we stopped for a second fighting these silly little ideological battles, we would actually realize we have a ton in common. And one of the biggest things we have in common is a common enemy. And that is the people that have told us that we should be fighting all these stupid little battles instead of talking about the real [__] that's happening, that's affecting all of us no matter what side of the political... And we're so busy jumping from one foot to the other that we... And again, as a lawyer, I do this all the time. I do this all the time. Like if my client has [__] up badly and I can't excuse it, I'm going to just throw up as many other things to talk about as humanly possible and I'm going to just try to go, 'Let's look at this instead of that. Let's look at this instead of that.' And before you know it, everybody's just defending themselves and talking about these side issues instead of the real thing I'm trying to get everybody off of.
I love the way you just articulated that. I know you know this, but I talk about this all the time. I think that we are all being rage baited and we should be aware of how our own algorithms are sucking us in to being enraged about a particular set of topics on one side of the aisle or the other which are not the real things.
Well, and you're absolutely right when you say it's the algorithm because what the algorithm does is creates an information environment that you are in.
And you perceive to be the world and the truth. And so when you look at someone else and go, 'How do you not see this? It's everywhere.' And the answer is no. No. Everywhere you look, it's there. It's totally absent from this person's ecosystem.
And you know, a lot of people don't know my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I didn't go right to law school. I actually went and got my master's degree and was working on my PhD in a field called media ecology, which is the study of information environments as if they were ecological systems. And this is really before social media. I mean, I got that degree in 1997. So, it was before any of these things became what they became. But I realized back then like this is World War III is an information war with no division between military and civilian participation. Like World War II is being fought right now all around you. And it's pretending it's not happening. And the way that it's happening is we're trying to capture the attention and focus and minds of everyone out there. And it's, by the way, working. Like we are more divided than we have ever been as a society and yet we have more in common than we've ever had in common before. Like we are all struggling with some of the same things. Like we're lonelier than we've ever been. We feel disconnected from any sense of meaning or purpose. We feel like everything is antagonistic to our relationship, our happiness, our ability to have these very basic things.
Like I'm quite a bit older than you, so I have sons in their late 20s. And like the dream of 'I'm going to own a home when I'm in my 20s, I'm going to get married and be able to have kids and feel like I'm economically secure enough to do that' — like that is really, really difficult. And yet, what are young men getting bombarded with? But like men younger than them, like Jack Dorsey, who are driving sports cars that they got because they just walk around pissing people off on camera and they're multi-millionaires as a result of it. So there's this feeling of like, what am I doing wrong? Am I a sucker for trying to follow the old paths? And by the way, you kind of are. Like it used to be you could get a bachelor's degree and get out and get a good meaningful job. That would be enough money for you to have health insurance and a place to live and save up a little bit to get yourself a house. And if you were financially responsible and you weren't frivolous with your money, that was enough for you to be able to buy a ring and settle down and do the whole thing. That's just not true anymore.
It's completely changed so that the people at the top could have trillions instead of billions. And I know because I represent them. I represent them in their divorces.
Okay. So, what do you say to your sons and to young men who are now navigating this new terrain?
Yeah. I think the first thing is you have to be honest with yourself about what you're looking at. Like, I don't think that comfortable lies are the solution. I think uncomfortable truths are the solution. I think the answer is what it's always been, which is you have to do what you can do within the rules of the game you're playing. Like you're in this system. I think having a defined sense of who you are and what your purpose is is the most important thing. I've represented a lot of very rich people. I've been poor and I've then had money and now I'm successful and have money. And I will tell you that the money does not solve the problems. Like my clients have all the same problems. Like my billionaire clients have all the same problems that my W2 wage-earning clients had 20 years ago.
Disconnection from the person that they loved most or purported to love the most. Feeling like they're not an adequate parent and in fact having trouble being a good parent. Feeling like their life doesn't have a lot of meaning and purpose and taking that out on the people around them and themselves. Dealing with addiction issues, mental health issues, anxiety, depression, like all the same human problems anybody else has. Like they're on a private jet having those problems, but there's just, you know, there's more happy people without private jets than there are happy people with private jets.
Like there's a lot, like happiness is a choice in some ways. Happiness is about having meaning and purpose. And money is not a very satisfying purpose after a while. Like it just becomes numbers on a page that eventually people realize like you can have one really nice watch or 50 really nice watches but you can only wear one at a time. Like you can only drive one supercar at a time. Like so you can have multiple homes and you can fly between them. And I'm sure that there's probably value to that in some way. But if all of your time is spent trying to amass more and more wealth, a) there will always be someone richer and b) there will always be someone better looking. Always. Always.
So if that's the game you're playing, you're playing a game you can't win.
What's a better game and how do you play it?
I think a better game is trying to find genuine purpose and meaning in your life. And that's a very individual question. Like for some people meaning and purpose is found in family. For some people, it's found in a deep connected relationship. For some people, it's found in feeling like you have a genuine professional purpose that like it might be art, creating beautiful art. It might be really the bliss of your work, like finding your work, like getting in that flow state. Like I happen to very much love the work I do. I will lose track of time like doing the work that I do. I'm distracted sometimes by my work the way that some people might be distracted by like a lover, you know, who they're like, 'Oh, I'm thinking of this person.' Like I find myself thinking about work in that way. So I think for me finding your passion and your purpose and then leaning really deeply and unapologetically into it. And I mean, I think fundamentally life is about figuring out who you are. And you know, John Steinbeck, I think, in The Grapes of Wrath said, 'I don't love work. I don't know anyone who does, but I love what's in the work, which is the opportunity to figure out who you are.'
And are you constantly discovering that?
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. Like I love that I'm constantly surprising myself by finding that things that used to fit don't fit me anymore. And things that used to have a lot of meaning to me aren't as meaningful. And accomplishing a goal and then going, 'Oh, okay. Like I got to the top of that mountain and there's another mountain over there. Like maybe I want to climb that one.' Or maybe you eventually realize like that, you know, you'll never get there. Like you're always arriving. Like the horizon is always receding in front of you. And that's part of the meaning of it. I mean, for me, that's what part of the meaning of it is. Like I think fundamentally we have to have a very deep sense of self and a deep sense of connection to other things. I have that in my life. I've had that in my life for as long as I can remember. I feel very deeply connected to the world. I feel a tremendous connection to other people, to animals, to sort of the broader environment of the world. Like I think it's because I did psychedelics from a very young age. But I do, I have a deep sense of oneness and connection to the world. And I think if you lack that, your life will be profoundly less joyful.
I agree. You know, I said this before the interview started, but you're very emotional in a healthy way, very spirited, and you own that. You know, I see it in interviews when like you're just not afraid to cry. And by the way, you still come across as like a man.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Well, that's my, you know, I was born a union of very contrary things. My father is a Vietnam veteran and a very traditional man. He was a worker. He was a tough guy. His hands were like beaten up. Like he really worked with his hands. And my mother was a nurse and a teacher and a deeply emotional and like... I learned from my mom like would listen to a song. She'd be listening to a song and she'd just, tears would start streaming down her face. And I just grew up thinking like, oh yeah, like if something's so beautiful that it moves you to tears, like just let those tears go. Don't be afraid of that. And my mother was very... one of the greatest things my mother taught me was that like one of the bravest things a man could be is like deeply emotional. Like and again, not that doesn't make you a [__]. Like I think a warrior, you know, a warrior in the real sense of the word like fights because he has love in his heart for the people behind him who he's protecting, not because he has hate in his heart for the person in front of him.
Like and I feel like that I always wanted to be that kind of man. Like I wanted to be the kind of man that could handle his [__]. Like whether that was a fight, whether that was an argument, whether that was an obstacle that needed to be overcome, like I felt like no, this is when I feel the most alive is like when I'm in the fight. Like I love the fight. I love Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I loved the fight from a young age. Whatever the fight was, in the courtroom, whatever. I love the fight. But I don't think that that's contradictory to like being deeply moved by beauty and by being like soft in the sense that like I've never let my hardness take away the part of me that like deeply appreciates love and being loved. And like I feel love very deeply in my heart for, I mean, for my kids, for the people I love, my friends. Like I'm very quick to tell my friends how much I love them, how important they are to me.
And I want to be open. I refuse to let the hardness of the world take from me like the depth of love I can feel. I think that loving is like an act of defiance in some ways. Like it's a... you know, I've said before in interviews and I think it's something that bears repeating that like if you're not scared, it's not brave. Like it's only brave if you're scared and you do it anyway.
You know, and like all the heroes I wanted to be like growing up, all the heroes from literature, all the characters in movies that inspired me, it was always the person who was like, 'Yeah, they're going to go do the thing that needs to be done.' Like maybe they're afraid, like maybe they should be afraid, but they're going to go do what needs to be done, you know, because the people they love are counting on them and they put themselves lower than the group, than the collective, or than the people that they love. And to me, that's like the greatest form of embodied masculinity that there is. And I think the fact that we've lost that is a tragedy.
I think so, too. Um, I think there's risk and vulnerability, but the other end of it is so beautiful. And I think a lot of us are walking around very guarded. I mean, I would imagine a lot of the people that you work with after the first divorce, second divorce, it's like this bitterness sets in, you have a wall up, you know, do I want to get involved with someone else again? And, you know, I've been there.
I've been there as a woman.
Yeah. Um, and of course when you add to that the algorithms that are telling you like, you know, men are this and women are that, and you can imagine how radicalized people are getting and how much they are guarded. Um, but I think you have to grieve a relationship and I think when you get your heart broken like it's, you have to feel that and it's really easy to not feel that. It's really easy to go, 'I don't care. I don't care anyway. I didn't care. It doesn't matter. It didn't work. It didn't hurt.' Like and as a man like I see how many of my male friends like that's when they're sad it looks like they're pissed off, you know, but actually they're sad. Like they're just sad. But we've created a world where like for a man to go, 'Yeah, I'm just really sad, like that makes me really sad,' that somehow that's a sign of weakness. I don't think it's a sign of weakness. Like I actually think that being able to say, 'Yeah, that makes me profoundly sad.'
Like I'm profoundly hurt by that. Like it's insane to love anything at all. It's just insane. Like to love anything, you're going to lose it someday. Like whether it's a dog, whether it's another person, like you're going to lose them. So you're a fool to open your heart to anything or anyone. And yet what would be the point of any of this to just keep yourself closed off like that? Like the greatest things in the world, the greatest things in your life, if I said to you, what are the greatest moments in your life? They would all be moments where you felt deep love or felt deeply loved. It's true of every single person. Like that's what matters the most is like the feeling of deep love. Even love of yourself. Like just feeling love. It's all love. That's all that really matters is love.
But when you realize for the first time that love can be taken away from you, nothing hurts worse than that. Like when someone dies who you love. When someone you love says, 'I don't love you anymore.' When someone you love says, 'I love someone else more than you and I'm leaving now.' Like that, there's no wound greater than that, you know? And of course, we're all [__] terrified. Like none of us want to feel that. Like the human desire to avoid pain is way bigger than the human desire to seek pleasure. Like most of what we do, we do to avoid pain. That's why opiates are more popular than cocaine because we want to avoid pain. Like what are opiates? They're painkillers. We want a cure for pain. Like all this algorithm, all this girlbossing, all this red pill [__], it's just a cure for pain. Like it hurts to be a man right now. It hurts to be a woman right now. Like and you saying it's really hard to be a woman right now is not saying and it's easy to be a man.
Me saying, you know, it's really hard to be a man right now, I'm not saying it's not hard to be a woman. I'm sharing with you my pain. I'm sharing with you my challenge. And the answer to that isn't, 'You think that's hard? You know what it's like to have to worry about getting raped. You know what it's like to have to worry about...' The answer to that is, 'Tell me about that. What's it like?'
I think we're dealing with a profound lack of empathy and curiosity.
And you know what? Those are two separate and deeply connected things. And it's the first time I've heard someone put them in the same sentence, but you're absolutely right. Like empathy and curiosity is huge. I actually often say to people when we're talking about dating and they say like, 'Well, what's the key to dating?' I said, 'Be interested and interesting.' Period. And all that is is another way of saying what you just said, which is curious and empathetic.
And it makes the other person feel alive.
Yeah.
I think most people are looking to feel alive, but they're optimizing for something else in a transactional world where they think they need to have a checklist of things.
And I bet you deal with that a lot.
I do. I deal with that a lot. And I also deal with what happens when there was a hope or expectation that someone would understand you and they don't and you don't understand them anymore and then you lose the plot. And that's a lot of what I do for a living is like the aftermath of like weaponized intimacy, you know, like when two people open themselves up to each other and then they lose the plot of the thing they were trying to write together and then there's a lot of like anger and sadness that comes with that. And yeah, I mean, my job is to help navigate the wreckage of that.
Have you ever helped navigate two people back to each other?
I try to. I mean, that's why I wrote the books and stuff, but yeah. I mean, I always try in every conversation I have. Like, I do a lot of consultations. Like, that's sort of like a first date. Like, I turn down... I mean, to put it in perspective, like there's only one of me.
And there are a lot of people that want to hire me. So, my office gets about 10 calls a day of prospective clients. I agree to do consultations with maybe three to five people a week and I take maybe two new cases a month.
How do you filter through that?
I look at what the subject matter is and is it something I can uniquely help with? Like if you're just two W2 wage earners dividing up your... like you don't need me, like you just don't need me for that, you know. Yes, could a brain surgeon put a band-aid on your cut on your finger? Of course they can. But you don't need a brain surgeon to do that. A regular doctor could do that. A nurse could do that. Like a well-trained toddler could do that for you. So, I'm very specific about will I be the right tool for this task.
And it's not about like how famous is someone or how much money someone has. It's much more about is this a case that my unique skill set and experience would be of service to. And then it's a question of okay, that will get them through the door for the consult. And then at the consult I have to figure out like does my communication style and their communication style match up? Are they someone who... do they want me because they want to be able to say they hired Jim Stton? Yeah. Or do they want me because they like the way that I communicate with them and the way that I analyze the problem and the way that I approach things strategically? So are we a good fit for each other? And then, you know, the third question is can they afford me? And, you know, that's a realistic question because I'm expensive now because the only thing I have to sell is my time and there's a limited amount of it. It's the only non-renewable resource. So I have to be a little selective about who I work with. And I mean, I do pro bono work for domestic violence organizations and I do pro bono work occasionally. Like that's the perk of being the boss is I get to pick what cases we do. But, you know, I have to be a little bit stingy with my time and my talents now because there's a limited amount of time.
How common is domestic violence?
Incredibly common. Tragically common.
And we're talking about like actually physically hitting someone or...
I mean, we're talking about intimate partner abuse, which is, I'm not going to engage in like the broadening of that definition so broad that it's absurd and that like an ill-spoken word is then considered domestic violence. Domestic violence when appropriately defined is defined as coercive control and intimate partner abuse. Does it have to be physical? No. No. The threat of violence can be as egregious and traumatic as actual physical violence. Like the threat of serious economic abuse, psychological abuse, the threat of leveraging someone's ability to be with their children, like those are real levers that you can hurt someone with much more than just punching them in the face, you know? But actual physical violence is definitely a huge piece of it. If you're going to engage in domestic violence, you usually only have to hit someone once.
Like it's the truth. Because once you've hit someone once, they know you'll do it. They know you will cross the line from threat to action. You know, this is something I'm sure Chris knows a lot about, which is I studied... people always think I'm crazy when I say this out loud, but when I was learning how to be a good negotiator, one of the things I studied in addition to Chris's books is the psychology of torture, like and how torture works, right? And there's actually a lot of research on torture and what is the optimal way to torture a person? Meaning like what is the moment where a person is most likely to give up information or do the thing that you want them to do that they really don't want to do. And the answer is actually very scientific and that is you threaten to hurt someone because the fear of pain is much more persuasive than pain.
Like the human capacity to endure pain is much greater than any of us give ourselves credit for. But the fear of pain is incredibly persuasive. So the optimal way to torture a person, and it's a useful thing to know when you're dealing with people psychologically,
is you threaten to hurt them, and then you hurt them a little, and then you say, 'That's nothing compared to what I'm going to do next.' That's the moment where a person will give up information or do the thing you want them to do. Because what did you do? You created fear. Then you demonstrated that you're not just talking, you will cross the line from thought to action and then you invoke the fear again.
And the reason why I bring that up in the context of discussing domestic violence is that people have this mistaken belief that domestic violence is about someone repeatedly beating someone. And it's very often not that. It's very often that a person only once has crossed the line from threat to actual physical violence or threat to actual sexual assault, then you never have to actually cross that line again because this person knows he's willing to do it. She's willing to do it. And that then every threat becomes much more persuasive because you know this person's willing to do it, you know, and that's unfortunately an incredibly common reality for a lot of people.
And I will tell you as someone who's represented a lot of victims of intimate partner abuse and domestic violence as well as perpetrators of intimate partner abuse and domestic violence, it's not like the guy in the spaghetti-stained t-shirt, you know, who like... look, it's a surgeon, it's a CEO, it's a lawyer, it's like incredibly successful people. Like it's women. Like there are plenty of women who are perpetrators of domestic violence and they will explicitly say... I have recordings of women saying to men I represent like, 'Yeah, I'm going to call the police and tell them that you hit me.' And they're like hitting him while saying this. 'Go ahead. You're going to tell the police that I hit you? I'm 4 foot 8.'
Who are they going to believe?
Right? Who are they going to believe? You or me? And by the way, what woman has not learned how to put on a game face? What woman has not learned how to, when she's feeling unhappy and has cramps and is miserable, look like the happiest girl in the whole wide world and like she's having a great time and she's comfortable? You don't think you can't use that power for evil? You don't think you can't threaten a guy and then when the police come go, 'Oh my god, thank God you're here.' Like, of course you can. Of course you can. And by the way, like saying that does not diminish women. That's actually like acknowledging a power that women have, right? But all power can be used irresponsibly and all power... like the power is neutral. Like a gun is neutral.
A gun in the hands, right? A gun is a tool, right? That power is a tool. That power to hide your true face and to put on... that's a power, but it's neutral.
And it can be used for good. It can be used for incredibly good purposes and it can be used for unbelievably malevolent purposes just like a gun could be. So, you know, as a person whose job is to advocate often for victims of intimate partner abuse, a lot of what I do now as an experienced attorney is I teach a lot of continuing legal education seminars for judges and for lawyers, particularly younger lawyers, about how to work with victims of domestic violence and how to work with survivors of intimate partner abuse, how to identify a case where there is intimate partner abuse happening.
Because you'll be surprised to know that the people who come into your office and say, 'My husband is a narcissistic abuser who's been gaslighting me and I've been a perpetrator of domestic violence,' they are usually not the people who are actual victims. Those are people that have spent a lot of time on YouTube and learning what the lingo is. A real victim of domestic violence comes in, they have an alcohol issue or a substance use issue or they appear to have mental health issues like they're anxious and panicked all the time, and they come in and they say, 'I just want the case. I just want to get this divorce over with as quickly as possible.'
And they don't even talk about it.
'He's got a temper. He goes from zero to 100 and he's just got a real temper and he's got a very short fuse.' And you say, 'Well, help me understand, like when you say he has a short fuse, could you give me an example of like what that looks like?' 'Well, he gets very upset very quickly and he's very, you know, like he's even put hands on me.' 'When you say he's put hands on you, I'm sorry to ask, but like could you give me an example of like when he's put hands on you?' And this person will tell you, 'Oh yeah, like a few times he's, you know, he's thrown me into the wall.' And you're sitting there going like, you didn't lead with that. Like you... but this person does. Whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. Like when you're in that ecosystem of domestic violence, you very often don't self-identify as a victim of domestic violence.
'Someone is in a relationship with a person who has a really bad temper and who I'm not doing a good job of like managing his emotional state.' Like victims of domestic violence will come in and tell you to some degree that it's their fault, you know, and that, well, you know, like he's been very stressed at work and I can't be the easiest person to live with.
Do victims of cheating also feel this way sometimes?
Although the world, because we talk more openly about infidelity, the world is a little less forgiving of that, particularly when men cheat. When women cheat, we're very quick as a society to say, 'Oh, it was a voyage of self-discovery.' Like if a woman cheats... if a man cheats, he's a piece of crap who can't keep it in his pants and it's his fault. If a woman cheats, it's usually that she wasn't satisfied by the man. She was on her own journey. She had to find her own thing and it's therefore the man's fault as well. So cheating, the world is... there's an imbalance in the force going on there. Like I've just seen it and like when I go into court and I have a guy who cheated, I'm ready that he's just going to get pilloried. Like the judge isn't going to like him. No one's going to like him. When a woman cheats, it's like, well, how bad was the marriage? I mean, it must have been really quite awful if she had to cheat. Like it's not balanced at all. It's really unfortunate. And I think we all know that that's the reality of the world. Like this is not... I'm pointing out an imbalance that all of us acknowledge is real. We just maybe don't want to say it out loud, but it's a real thing.
But I don't think we consider cheating the same as domestic violence. And I actually think that's fair because cheating is an urge. I mean, look, the urge, like lust, is a very normal human drive. So, I think all of us go like, 'All right, I mean, you took the bait. Like, you shouldn't have, but like we all feel temptation from time to time.' Like, I've never felt the urge to physically assault a woman I was in a relationship with, ever. Period. And full stop. Have I been angry at a woman I was dating? Of course. Have I been like, 'Oh, I wish I could say to her'? Sure. Have I said it? No. I've literally never cursed at a woman in anger in my life. Like I was raised differently than that and it's just not something I feel. I can feel furious at a woman. A guy, I'll tell a guy, 'You know what, you're a [__] [__].' I wouldn't say to a woman, 'You know what, you're a [__].' I wouldn't say that. It's just not in me because I was taught to regard women in a different way. And that might be sexist that I don't raise...
My voice to women. Like, I was raised not to do that, and I'm comfortable with that. But, you know, do I think that I understand cheating? Of course, I've cheated. Of course. Like, I'm an adult man. If you're being honest, at some point you've probably cheated in your relationships.
What percentage of, I guess, men and women do cheat, have cheated, would cheat?
A colossal number. I would argue, I would say in the like 90-plus percentile, I think. I mean, it's hard to really navigate that because people don't self-report accurately. But whether cheating is the cause or the symptom is always the question. Like, is cheating something that breaks relationships, or is the relationship broken and that's why you cheat?
What have you found in your experience?
I think that cheating is a symptom. I don't think it's the cause. I think when people are connected to each other, they don't cheat on each other. I think disconnection is the root of all relationship demise. I think cheating comes from disconnection. I think lying in a relationship comes from disconnection. I think connection is everything. And I don't think that should be that controversial. I think when you meet someone, you deeply want to connect to them and you're hungry for that connection as a man too. I think men and women... because I think what women are being told, particularly through these algorithms, is that all men cheat. Men want variety. They, you know, and they just want more and more and everyone.
I mean, what I will say is I do think there is a biological element. Men do crave variety in a different way than women, which makes sense biologically, because if you and I are like every other aspect of nature, right? Like humans are the only aspect of nature that considers themselves separate from nature. I think it's what's hilarious about humans. Like we're the only animal that thinks we're not an animal, which is to me hilarious. But one of the things we aren't honest about is that we have biological drives that are primal just like every other animal does. Like we want to reproduce. So much of this is tied to our desire to reproduce. But really think about the biology of male and female reproduction. The moment I orgasm, I'm finished with my role in the reproduction of the species. Like, and it's the most enjoyable moment possible. And the second I come, I'm done if I need to be. Women are locked in for at least nine months. At least nine months. Once you're pregnant, you're locked in for at least nine months. And then we come out half-formed. So you're actually locked in for longer than that. But a man biologically, again, socially you can say, well, men are needed to help with this and to help with that. But theoretically, you could find another man who could help with these things. Like biologically, the moment of orgasm, I am finished with my role in the reproduction. I'm finished with my role in reproduction. The raising is different, but the reproduction, I'm done at that moment. So it makes sense that women would be much more selective and men would, if you're again, if the biological imperative is to spread your DNA and to spread your genetics, right, and to preserve your genetics and offspring like every other animal and even insect, it would make sense that we would be created in a form that craves variety, that wants to go out and impregnate. Like you put, you know, a hundred men on an island with one woman and come back in a hundred years or come back in ten years, you're going to have 99 dead men and a bunch of babies. That's what you're going to have. You put one man on an island with a hundred women, come back, you're going to have a civilization because that man can impregnate all of those women. Those women can have offspring. The offspring can sleep with each other. Like women have all the power in reproduction, but men are going to have, we have the need for variety. I mean, it's biologically hardwired in us. Again, can it be evolved from? I think it's supposed to be evolved from. I mean, I can say in my own journey as a man, like I certainly, like any other man, craved variety, wanted spontaneity, and wanted to have as many sexual partners as possible. Beautiful women had a massive power over me when I was a younger man, you know, and that's what I wanted. I wanted to be with beautiful women and I wanted to be around them and I wanted to sleep with them and I wanted to, like, you have this, you're like just walking around possessed so much of the time. And ideally, you don't have to burn your hand on the fire to figure out that it's hot. But most men, myself included, we needed to, you need to get a bunch of women to figure out that that's not the answer.
Yeah, like that's a bottomless pit.
Yeah, which Neil Strauss showed in The Game.
Neil is a great example of someone who said, like, if I could just bed down all of these women, I'll find happiness.
And then you develop the ability to do that and you realize, oh, this is actually, like, I want depth. Like, I want to deeply connect to another person. Like, I want, just like, by the way, a lot of women from the beginning want that depth of connection. And so it takes men sometimes a different journey to get to that same place where they go, 'Oh, all of this sport [__] isn't actually the thing.' Like, what I really want is deep connection to another person. And when I'm satisfied, I don't want to eat anymore. Like, I've always said, like, I believe in monogamy. But the vision of monogamy that I believe in is I'm going to sleep with as many women as I want to. And ideally that's going to be just one, right? Because if I'm full, I don't want to eat anymore. Like, if my partner is satisfying me and I'm satisfied, because I'll tell you right now, like, I don't want to be in a relationship with a woman who, you know, 'I really would love to sleep with a whole bunch of guys, but, you know, we have this rule, so I won't.' That's not going to make me feel very good. Like, if we're in a relationship and I say to you, 'You know, there's a lot of women I really want to have sex with, but, you know, we agreed I'm not going to have sex with them. So I'm resisting the urge, just so you know, babe.' Like, you're not going to feel good about that. Like, you want a man who's going to say, 'Oh my God, I want you, and that's all I want. Like, you're my flavor. That's all I want. I just want that. And once I have that, I'm good. I'm good. I can go out and do all the other [__]. I can go out and take on the world.' Now, I think it's important for women to know that that's possible because a lot of women think it isn't.
Because I think we're being fed, I think women were terribly misled in the last 20 years into identifying with the perpetrator. Like, I think I've said before, I think Sex and the City did a lot to hurt society because I think Sex and the City was well-intentioned, but the idea was we're going to convince women that what they really want to be is gay men. Like, that what they really want to be is like, 'Yeah, I can be just as sex-hungry as men can.' It's like that meme that's all over TikTok now of like the, you know, the woman who's like, 'Well, you know, I took him out to dinner, I had sex with him, and then I put him in an Uber just like they do to us.' And then you see the guy and he's like, 'Dude, this was the best night ever.' Like, because for a guy that's an incredibly satisfying experience. But the truth is, like, women have always been the gatekeepers of sexuality. Like, women have always, like, if I'm telling you right now, like, a lot of women say, 'Oh, I hate shaving my armpits. I find it unpleasant having to shave my armpits.' Okay. If all of the women agreed, 'Hey, none of us are going to shave our armpits anymore,' do you think men would go, 'Well, then we're not having sex with you because that's disgusting'? That's not, men would adapt to whatever women, as the sexual gatekeepers, said, 'This is what we're doing now.' Like, if women said, 'You know what? High heels suck. Yeah, our legs look good in them, but man, they're uncomfortable. Let's just all agree we're not going to wear high heels anymore.' Men would not go, 'Well, then we're on strike. We're not going to sleep with you anymore.' We don't [__] care. Like, but there'd be that one [__], there'd be [laughter] that one woman who was like, 'Wait, none of them are wearing heels. Okay, I got an advantage now.' And that girl would go, 'Yeah, I just wear heels for me. Like, I just, I don't know. I just like, I don't know why all these girls don't wear heels. Like, I love them. I just enjoy wearing them.' And then she would have advantage in the sexual marketplace. And I get it. Like, I get it. This is a competition to some degree.
Of course it is. Like, it's always been. It's the only competition that ever really exists. What do you think the money is for? Like, men are out there pursuing money. What do you think they're pursuing money for? They're pursuing money so they can get laid. Everything everyone does is so they can get laid.
I think so, but perhaps for different reasons. I don't think just to get laid. I think to find a mate. So to compete in the mating marketplace and ideally either have a life where they are taken care of and have the freedom to do whatever it is they feel like doing, or to have offspring.
So women are competing for resources with other women.
With other women. Yes. Women are women's prime enemy and prime motivator.
Have you seen a lot of intrasexual competition?
Can you give me examples of what it looks like?
I mean, I see the wreckage of people's failure to acknowledge what's actually happening in them and around them all day long. Like, I feel like doing what I do for a living and having represented men and women and made both sides of every argument that presents for the cheater and the cheated and the man who cheats and the woman who cheats and all of those pieces, like, you just have to learn the nuance of like, oh, this is what this person's motivation really was. And I think in all of these things, like, women will forgive in a man who they find deeply attractive almost anything, and men will forgive in a woman who they find very attractive almost anything. Like the traits that they would find infuriating in a less attractive person. And when I say attractive, I don't just mean physically attractive. I mean attractive. Whether it's their resources, whether it's their demeanor, their sexual ability. Like, you know, whenever I'm talking to men about this, they always mistakenly think I'm talking about beauty, like that beauty is the number one currency for women. And I often say to them like, 'Hey, do you know a woman who's beautiful and not hot?' And they go, 'Oh, yeah.' And I go, 'Okay, do you know a woman who's hot and not beautiful?' And they're like, 'Oh, yeah.' And I'm like, 'Okay, so there's a difference. Like, you get the difference. Like, you know a man who's really attractive but not attractive.'
And you know a man who's not attractive but he's like really attractive, you know? And it's like we all know what this is. Like there's something about like, 'I don't know what it is about this guy. I should like him but I don't,' or 'I should find him attractive but I don't.' And then there's guys you're like, 'On paper, this is not my thing, but man, he's doing something for me.' And that's a lot of what I see. Like that's where people cheat. That's the thing that brings people together and then ultimately causes them to overlook the real practical things that are going to submarine the long-term success of a relationship. Because very often what would make for an enjoyable sexual partner or an enjoyable boyfriend or girlfriend is not going to make for a good long-term partner, a long-term connection to another person. But you have to have those entry points. Like that's the thing. Like I understand that people are sort of like giving up hope sometimes. Like men are just saying, 'Oh, there's no good women out there.' And women are saying, 'Oh, there's no good men out there.' I understand why you would feel that way, but I genuinely don't believe that that's true. I just think we're all chasing the wrong things and looking, and the algorithm is feeding us a lot of enragement towards each other. It's weaponizing our authentic frustration and pointing it at each other.
Right. I want to get into that. Let's start with men.
What do you feel like men are looking for and programmed to look for that is destroying their ability to find a good mate and connect?
Wow, that's a great question. So, I think men are programmed to seek a woman who has a certain level of vulnerability because men want to be of use. Like the number one, Richard Reeves has done a lot of really interesting conversation and research, his organization, on why the suicide rate for men is so high compared to women, why it's four times higher, you know, it's exponentially higher. And the answer is very often that men don't feel they have a purpose anymore. And one of the greatest things a woman gives to a heterosexual man is a feeling of purpose. If you want to test this theory, pretend you're having a hard time opening a jar of pickles. Any man of any age will get wildly excited about the opportunity to help you with that problem. Go out on the street and drop something of yours or have your bag spill some things and watch how many men run over to try to be of service in that situation. Like, because men, like primally, we're built to want to be of service. And part of that is that we are attracted to a vulnerable woman. And that's not in a malevolent way. Not like, 'Oh, she's vulnerable and we're going to like eat her alive.' It's really like a signal of, 'Oh, I can be of service. I can be of use. I will have value to this person.' And I think that is something that men, we've innately been hardwired to be that way for obvious biological reasons. But then I think it's become weaponized against us in the wrong ways. Men feel used. Men feel devalued. Men feel like they're not appreciated. You know, if you ask a little girl, 'Tell me some things that are great about being a girl.' Anything she says is the right answer. If she says, 'I'm smart,' you say, 'That's right. Girls are smart.' And if she says, 'I'm strong,' 'That's right. Girls are strong, aren't they?' You know, like if you ask a little boy, 'Tell me what's good about being a boy.' Anything he says is a hate crime. If he says, 'I'm strong,' 'Girls are strong, too. What do you mean girls aren't strong? Why would you say that? That's not a boy trait. Like girls are just as strong as well.' 'I'm smart.' 'Are you saying girls aren't smart?' Like we don't. But when girls say this, if you say to a girl, 'What's good about being a girl?' Anything she says, like if a girl says, 'I'm smart,' you go, 'Well, boys are smart, too.' That's not what we say. Now, again, this is a natural reaction to the fact that for many, many years, women were absolutely held back in Western culture. 100%. Like 100%. They still are, by the way. Like we still have like the American Taliban happening around here. Like, you don't believe me? Go to some of the Hasidic communities right now like where women don't have driver's licenses and they're not allowed to, you know, like, and then tell me how progressive we're doing, you know, like spend a little less time worrying about if Sabrina Carpenter is properly liberated and spend a little more time looking at what's going on at Kiryas Joel in Orange County. Like that's what's going on in the world and that's where we would be focusing our energy if we were really concerned about the plight of women, you know. But fundamentally what we're really looking at here is just that we've convinced men that almost anything they do, they're doing it wrong. And that's really, really unfair and they don't know what to do with that.
And what are the consequences of that?
Men are angry. Men are angry. I think men are angry. They feel isolated. They feel useless. They feel frustrated. I think men when they're angry, we're not as men given as much of an emotional vocabulary. I don't think we're taught from a young age to like be able to like go into a room full of like middle schoolers and high schoolers, boys and girls, and have them close their eyes and say to the room, 'How many of you have ever had a really bad day and you go home and you just call your best friend and you just talk to them about what a hard day you had? Raise your hand if that's true.' And all the girls' hands go up and none of the boys' hands go up or very, very few because from a very young age women are taught that it's okay to emotе to each other and to share with each other.
And if men do that, that's gay.
It's gay, it's weak. And by the way, some of that is that men are driven to being problem solvers. Like listen, I have a deep emotional vocabulary, but if I called one of my male friends and I was like, 'Dude, I'm having such a hard time with my son right now and, you know, I don't know what to... He's got this going on, blah, blah, blah.' And he went, 'That must be really hard.' I'd be like, 'Yeah, it is, man. That's why I [__] called you. Like, what do you think I should do? Like, when your son was going through stuff, what did you do? Like, do you think I should...' Like, I'm calling because I want a solution. I want you to help me find a solution. I'm not just emoting about something, which again, I'm not denigrating emoting about something. We're just speaking different languages. Like one of the hard... it took me 50-something years of being a heterosexual man in relationships with women to figure out that sometimes when I'm talking to a woman and she's sharing with me something that was painful to her, that she doesn't want me to solve it. That she just wants me to go, 'Man, that sucks. I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. Like that's really not fair to you. Like you really, like that must have been really hard.' Like, and that when I say that to her, she goes like, 'Yeah, thank you.' Like, and like softens and is like, 'Oh, like that felt good to get that out.' Like that's just not natural to me, but I can learn. Like I can learn your language.
By the way, I think we can learn your language too.
You can, but instead... but you have to want to. You have to want to, and I have to want to, and we have to give each other permission to, and we have to stop... the biggest thing is we have to stop hearing, when a man says something's hard or he's in pain or something's unfair to him, we're not saying what you have is easy, and vice versa. Like a woman's saying like, 'This is...' men have to figure this out. Like when a woman says, 'Do you know how hard it is to be a woman?' They're not saying it's so easy to be a man. I know it feels like that. Like it feels like that. Just like when I say how hard it is to be a man, it feels like I'm saying it's easy to be a woman. I'm not. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's hard. And again, if you can give me the same thing that you want from me, which is that you can just attend to my pain and you can just be there for it and be present and try to understand, like you said, to have that empathy and that curiosity. 'I don't know what that's like. Help me understand what that's like.' Like, I don't know what it's like to have my hormones go completely out of whack every 28 days. My hormones are the same all the time. Like, they're the same all the time. When I was younger, they were incredibly enraged all the time. I wanted to fight everyone and have sex with everyone. [laughter] That was what it was. And then it got kind of like, you know, a lot softer and a lot calmer. And then I started injecting it and now it's like a little bit more excited, right? So I'm a little bit more enthusiastic and angry than I used to be. But that's only because I'm injecting exogenous testosterone into my body now, like most men in modern society past the age of 40. Because why? We want to feel this what we believe to be very male primal thing. Now, I've missed the bullet that so many of my contemporaries do where they go, 'Well, if one is good, two is better, and if two is good, four is better.' And then the next thing you know, you're purple and gigantic. You know, as opposed to saying, 'Hey, I just want to maintain a certain natural state where I'm at my optimal best.' Because the truth is, I'm not supposed to be alive. Like in any society other than this one, like you'd die by the time you were 40. Like women would die in childbirth most of the time. Most children would die. Like most people died. Like we've created a society where people live far longer than we would have outside of this very unnatural state. And again, I'm not criticizing that very unnatural state. Like it has a lot of really great things going for it.
The Brian Johnson lifestyle.
But to turn around and say, well, first of all, like Brian, I think, God bless him, but I think he's fighting a losing battle. Like Brian's going to die. I hate to be the one to tell it to him, but he's definitely [laughter] going to die. Like, and he's going to age. He might do it slower. And by the way, if somebody said to me, you can live to 110 eating what he eats, or you can die at 80 eating really satisfying meals, I'm good, man. I'm good. 80 is good. 80 is good. I'm fine with that. Same as you. Like, I watch Brian's routine and I'm like, 'Yeah, that's... I wouldn't do it for a day. I wouldn't do it for a day.' Is he more disciplined than me? I guess so. I don't know that he is. I just think his goal is different than mine.
I want to live like real. I want to live hard. I want to die and I don't want to die without any scars. Like I want to die a worthy death. I want to live a worthy life. Like I don't want to tiptoe through life and arrive safely at death. Like I want to live a big life. Like I've already lived a big life. Like I've already said to both of my sons, I'm like, 'I die tomorrow, I [__] won.' Like, I came from nothing and built what I built. I've loved more, had more sex, made more money, done more things, accomplished more than I ever... I'm playing with the house's money. So everything I'm doing now, it's the bonus round. It's the bonus round. Like, and I learned that from my father. My father was a Vietnam veteran, and every single friend he had died in Vietnam. Basically, he graduated from the Naval Academy in 1966 and he went to Vietnam for three years and every single man in my parents' wedding party died in Vietnam. Like all of his friends died in Vietnam. My father came back from Vietnam and he was like, 'Yeah, this is all just a bonus round.' Like he got to live beyond 25. All of these other men died. Like, and so his attitude from day one was like, 'Yeah, this is all extra. Like everything's extra.' And I feel that way about my life. Like I feel like I've already lived more life than I ever imagined I would. I've loved more. I've lived more. I've accomplished more than I ever. And again, as long as I'm enjoying it and I'm riding this ride, like, I'm in, man. I'll keep going. But like, I don't have anything to prove to anybody anymore. Like, I don't have anything to prove to anybody anymore. I've played the game I play at the highest level. I've accomplished more than I ever wanted to. And that's what I wish everyone will have. I want every, like every man, if you can find that, like that's a life well-lived. It's not living to a hundred-something. It's not, you know, like I've represented billionaires who are absolutely miserable because the money is just numbers on a page at some point. Like there's only two amounts of money: enough and not enough. That's it. Everything else is an illusion.
I have a question about billionaires because this has become very popular lately, but the way that Elon has these baby mamas, for example, you know, he's a very successful guy. He can do whatever he wants at that level. He can afford that.
Is that... he could have a lot less money than Elon and have multiple jobs and still do that? Is that something that's becoming more popular?
I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that Elon has... I don't know him personally. We have a lot of friends in common. The sense I get from him, and I do think there is something to it, is he is an incredibly intelligent person.
And he has a gift genetically to give to the world. I think that, you know, if there is an inheritable trait to intelligence, which there is, could the world use a bunch of people with the creativity and intelligence of him? Yes, the world could. Like you can dislike his politics and you still have to acknowledge that he's made tremendous gains in the world.
You want to know something crazy? I met a billionaire who told me that he would let his wife get impregnated by Elon and he would raise Elon's child.
Sure. Sure. I think from a biological standpoint, with what we know about what's carried in our genetics, I think that he is obviously an outlier when it comes to intelligence. I mean, there's a lot of men like that. Like Andrew Huberman is a good friend of mine and Andrew is one of the most brilliant people I know. And I mean, just from a genetic intelligence and physical capability level. So, could we afford to have a bunch of Andrew Hubermans running around? Yeah, I think the world would be a really... there would be a lot of tremendous benefit to the world to have people with that genetics in them. Now again, I don't really regard... like there are some people that have the attitude of, 'Oh, reproduction is, you know, such an important piece and carrying your genetics forward,' and he has the money to kind of make whatever choices he wants. He can live where he wants, he can impregnate who he wants. He can kind of do what he wants to do and he can afford to do it. So if that's the choice he's made, that's great. That's the choice he's made. Do I think that if everyone had billions of dollars that that's the choice they would make? No. I think there are a lot of people that have lots of money that instead want the depth of connection to one person and they want to have children in their home who they're raising and they want to be deeply involved in the raising of their offspring as opposed to sort of setting it up like franchises. I don't really know. I don't think that there's a right or wrong way to live your life, or if there is, it's not for me to be the one to say, but I understand what it is he's trying to do. I think to the extent that he understands what it is that he's trying to do. I think that any of us understand our motivation, but I understand what he's doing. I don't think that that's a model that's going to catch on. I don't think that there are a lot of men that are going to be like, 'Oh, yeah. I want to just have a bunch of babies and, you know, afford to support them financially, but not be deeply involved in the day-to-day care of them, nor deeply connected romantically to the mother of my children.' I don't think that's a model that's really going to catch on. It's interesting because I talk to a lot of people about this and I find in my experience, which I have to clarify when I say these things, there are a lot of women who are actually interested in being on the other end of that transaction.
Yeah, I understand why. I think, look, society has changed dramatically insofar as so much of our time and resources used to be consumed by trying to just accomplish basic things, right? Like I got in a lot of trouble some months ago because I said that being a stay-at-home mom in the modern age is not the hardest job in the world. I didn't think that was a controversial thing to say, but apparently... Well, don't say it if you're a man who isn't a mother, because it really... I got just absolutely was all over me for it. And I was trying to simply say not that it's not the most important job. I actually do think you could make the argument that being a mother is the single most important job in the world. Like every person who's ever accomplished anything, they all have in common that they have a mother and that their mother was an integral part of their presence in the world. Like even if she died in childbirth, like they only exist because of her. You guys have a [__] magic power in the fact that you're able to create and cultivate and give birth to life and then even feed it. Like that's incredible. It's a superpower. So, I don't think it's controversial to say it's an incredibly important job, but to say it is the hardest job in the world in the modern age where we have dishwashers, grocery delivery, you know, washing machines, modern medicine, disposable diapers, I don't think it's the hardest job in the world. And by the way, unlike being a hot roofer where the first day you do it and 10 years later when you're still doing it, it still sucks and it's still really hard. Theoretically, a crying, screaming infant when they're five years old won't be screaming and crying as much. If they are, you need to get them checked out by a physician. So, kids grow up. That's the thing about kids. So, when a person says like, 'Oh, well, you don't know how hard it is to be a mother. I have an infant.' Right? You have an infant and there's going to be a temporary period of time where that's very challenging and it's going to get quite a bit less challenging. And by the way, it's less challenging already than it was when we didn't have disposable bottles and formula and diapers, disposable diapers, and you had to wash the diaper, and you also at the same time had to cook a meal, which was a whole process because you didn't have a microwave or processed food or food delivery or DoorDash or any of those other things. So, like to pretend we're not living in a world where our most basic... like you used to need a man. Like you needed a man because if you didn't have one, another man was going to rape you or another man was going to enslave you or kill you, right? Like you needed a man to stop the other bad men, right? You needed a man to go out and kill a thing so you could get enough protein to survive and produce offspring. Like that was what most of our lives, like most other creatures on the planet, were. Try not to be eaten and try to get enough to eat. That was our job. Right now that's the easiest thing in the world. And like I hate to say the Unabomber was right, but like go out and read like Ted Kaczynski's Industrial Society and Its Future. Like he basically said industrial society is broken. Like it's going to destroy humanity because everything has gotten too easy and now we are engaged in surrogate activities. And all we're interested in, we're just completely detached from the natural world.
What are surrogate activities?
Anything you do other than the things that you need to do to survive. Like the fact that the majority of your day for most of human civilization was consumed by trying to get resources to feed yourself and your offspring and survive. That has become incredibly easy. Like the world is safer than it's ever been and life is easier than it's ever been. And we are more angry and dissatisfied and think we have it worse than we've ever thought before, which is insane.
I think we have it bad in a different way.
Well, I think we've decided we have it bad in a different way. Like, we've decided we have it bad in a different way. Like, I don't buy that for a second. Like, I think we've... Yeah, we've... you know, when you just got like, have you ever had a really bad headache?
Okay. When you have a really bad headache, all you can think about is how you have a really bad headache. You can't get away from it. And all you think is, 'Oh my God, if my head would just stop hurting, I would be the happiest person in the world.' And then your headache goes away and for like a few hours or maybe even a day you're like, 'Oh my God, at least my head doesn't hurt anymore.' And you're just in a profound state of gratitude. Did you wake up today and go, 'I don't have a headache'? No, you didn't. That's the nature of humanity, right? Like we have lost completely the plot. Like we've lost the plot. We do not understand how good we have it because we have it so good for so long. But like it wasn't that long ago that we were all like, 'Oh my God, could you imagine like when restaurants will be open again and we'll all be able to sit in the same room and eat together?' We've already forgotten that. We're already like back to the thing and we're like, 'Oh yeah, whatever.' Like and we're as ungrateful as we ever were.
I think we have better problems, but we still need to face the problem, which is that we're not connecting with each other and we're doom-scrolling.
I think those are imaginary problems. Are they? Look, I have always said that technology offers us real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems. Like real problems are death, illness, loneliness, like those are real problems. But loneliness is the problem of our... but we're manufacturing loneliness. We've decided that the other person is not enough. Why? Because they're not pretty enough or they're not this enough or that enough as opposed to, have you watched Love on the Spectrum? Why do you think we all love Love on the Spectrum? Because Love on the Spectrum is just people that are just neurodivergent enough that they can't be full of [__]. And so all they do is go, 'I really want this person to like me and I really want them, I want to like them too.' And then they just like... it's shocking to me that anyone is like, 'Oh, isn't it great that these people found love?' Like how that's not shocking at all.
Because they're honest. They're real. They're authentic. All they did is strip this down to, listen, like I just want someone to like me and I want to be liked by someone and I want to like someone. And like all they do is give each other so much grace. Like you watch that dates on that show. Oh, I cry every time I watch. I cry like a kid every time I watch that show.
I love Logan. I love him. I have a framed photo of Logan in my office. Yes. To remind me that this is the presence of mind a person should have because his external internal dialogue is my favorite thing in the world. Yeah, me too. But he just is like, it doesn't matter that she doesn't have curly hair. That's okay. It's okay to have a girl that... And you know what? I really like you even though you don't have curly hair. It's okay. I really like you anyway. You know what, Logan? Like you're saying the quiet part out loud. You're so [__] real. You're so authentic. And by the way, we could all be that authentic. We just have to decide we're going to be that authentic. But we're not because of again... Fear and the reality of dominance hierarchies, the reality of... We're constantly competing with each other. We're in an ecosystem where we're competing with each other. We all want the best. We all want the most. We're all afraid the things we have are going to be taken away. We're spending a lot of time trying to protect ourselves and we're playing the game. We're playing the game. But what is the game about? We're afraid of pain. We're afraid of emotional pain. We're afraid of physical pain. We're afraid of hunger. We're afraid of age, illness, death. We're afraid of lots of things. We're afraid of pain. But what we don't realize is that all of these things we're doing, all these walls we're building to keep the pain out are keeping everything out. They're keeping all the warmth out, too. They're keeping all the depth of... like you have to risk being hurt to love. You have to, not only you have to risk being hurt, you have to accept the inevitability of being hurt to love. Like that's why I think like it's the bravest thing in the world to love because you're accepting that you're going to hurt me. I'm going to let you hurt me. I'm going to lose you someday and it's going to gut me. But I want to have this with you. We're here right now. I think if we go, if we're talking about dating for example, which by the way I think that's the first challenge in a series of challenges of the progression of a relationship, right?
And I can speak for myself and I have a, you know me, I have a lot of male friends. I have like a rich ecosystem of people.
I think the first hurdle actually for us is the hardest. Do you know how hard it... like I can't even imagine telling a guy that I like, 'Hey, I like you.' And also, I've been taught not to.
You know, he needs to like you more than you like him. He needs to die for you, babe. You deserve princess treatment. Like, what is he doing for you, babe? You know, that's what we're told.
Probably something else equally as bad. I mean, men are told, 'Watch out. She wants, you know, she's going to pretend it's that she's in the rat trap.' Like she's a predator disguised as a house pet. Like that she's going to, you know, she's going to let you drop your guard and then she's going to find vulnerability and weakness in you and she's going to weaponize it against you. Like that's what men are most afraid of. Like that's what men are most afraid of because that's a legitimate thing to be afraid of.
And you know what we're afraid of? I think you're afraid of a man who's going to pretend to be interested, something that's interested and genuinely loves you, and that you're going to let your guard down and you're going to give yourself to him fully and you're going to let yourself fall into him feeling that he's going to catch you or be a solid ground to build something on and you're not going to protect yourself and then it's going to turn out that it was a lie and he wasn't who he claimed he was and he's actually someone who's just going to discard you and not be there for you.
Damn, you nailed that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because it's the primary presenting problem that walks into my office on both ends.
Okay. So, how do we move past that? Because we're not...
You have... we have to be brave enough to try to love each other and to be hurt. And I think we have to say out loud what we're afraid of. I think it feels really good to say that out loud and it feels really good to hear it.
Like I think when I said it, some part of you went, 'Oh yeah, that's what I'm scared of.'
Okay. That's scary. That's a scary thing. Like when I said that to you and you were like, 'Yeah, that.' I'm like, 'Yeah, I'd be afraid of that if I was you, too. That's an okay thing to be afraid of.' Like, but couldn't you say to a man like, and again, it's vulnerable. Like it's a vulnerable thing. Like it's a vulnerable thing to say to a man like, 'I'm afraid you're going to hurt me emotionally. Like I'm afraid that you're not who you say you are.' Like I'm... and again, like we have to cultivate conditions where we can say, because I will tell you as a man, it's really hard for me to say I'm scared. It's really hard for me to say I need rest and I sometimes don't know that. And I need someone who's going to help me figure out that I need to rest but who's not going to take away like my power, like the fire, right? Like I need someone who's going to say like, 'Yeah, good. You do. Oh God, it's so good that you go out in the world and you do all these things, but why don't you lay your head down for a minute? It's okay. It's okay to lay your head down for a minute.' Because a man like me, I need to be told that. But if you mommy me, I hate it. I don't want to be mommied.
What's the difference of saying that and being mommied?
I think being mommied is, 'You don't know what you need. Lay down. You need to lay down.' It's a mommy. Like the way a mommy tells you, like, 'Knock it off. Lay down. Put... you need this. You don't know what you need.' Like a strong man in my experience as one, we don't want that. We hate that. I have a mom. I don't want to [__] my mom. Like [laughter] like I don't want that.
I want good... I want a woman who's good. Just like, by the way, when we were like, 'Oh, well, this woman has daddy issues.' Every woman has daddy issues. Every man has mommy issues. Like, you want a man like your father, but who you want to sleep with. Like, you want a man who's like, 'No, I'm looking out for you. You're my girl. Like, you're my girl. I'm going to protect you and I'm going to be here for you and I'm going to make sure you have all the things you need because it gives me tremendous joy to do that. Not because I owe it to you or not because I'm afraid of you, because it makes me so happy to see you so happy.' Like that's what being a parent is. My children, I say them all the time, like my sons are always like, 'Dad, you know, just you didn't have to do that.' I'm like, 'I...
Like, do you know what joy it gives me to see you thrive? Like, there's nothing I could buy myself that's as fulfilling for me as giving my children things and seeing them thrive and be successful. Well, we want that. Why? Because that's love, right? That's what we want from... But what do I want as a man? I don't want a mom. I don't want a woman who's like, 'Put your things down. Go lay down.' I want a woman who's going to say to me, 'You're doing so good. You're doing so good. God, your work, you're killing it.' But you know what, baby? Like, if you want to lay your head down for a minute, it's okay. Like, lay your head down for a minute. It's okay. You've deserved it. You've earned it. And then I do the, 'No, no, no. I don't need that.' Well, it's just for a minute though. Just say it'll feel good just for a minute. And then I go, 'Well, you know, maybe just for a minute.' And then I'm like, 'Oh god.' Because I'm exhausted.
But then like again, like the right woman is going to then like let me just have that and then be like, 'Do you feel better?' Yeah. See, so that's great, baby. You did it. Great. No. Like like boys like Chris Williamson calls it good boy points. Like we will do almost anything for that, but we don't want to be like mommied about it. Like we want we want the praise of a woman. Like but again it's it's such a complicated thing. Like it's it's the example I always give is is the shaving thing. I always talk about the shaving thing that I I dated a woman who you know I I shave all week because I have to look like Gregory Peck in Inherit the Wind. Like you have to look like a courtroom lawyer. And so I can't grow like I can't have that like oops I didn't know I was sexy stubble like guys get to have. And on weekends I don't shave. And I was dating a woman who she had very sensitive skin. And every time I would like, you know, kiss her or whatever, she'd be like, 'Oh, your skin's like so stubbly.' And I just had such resentment after a while where I was like, 'You know what? Like now I got to shave on weekends when I'm going to see you too or else I'm going to get criticized. Like you should be glad I'm kissing you.' Like, you know, like what? That relationship didn't work out for probably related reasons. But the next woman I dated, the exact same thing. But what she would do is after I would like be clean shaven in the morning, she would like always come up behind me and she would go like, 'God, like you're so it's so sexy when you're clean shaven. Like I love it. You're like Don Draper in Mad Men, dude.' Completely different. I shaved like twice a day. Whenever I was going to see her, I would shave and I would always be like, 'Oh, I shaved this morning.' And she was like, 'I know. I noticed.' You know, and it was like why? Because instead of like it was like like I love this about you. Like and who wouldn't love that? Like who doesn't love that? Instead of saying like, think about it. We're dating and we're not sleeping. We're not having as much sex as we used to have. Okay, which happens sometimes in relationships. I say to you now as your boyfriend, you know, why aren't we having as much sex as we... You don't give me as many [__] as you used to. What's going on with it? Okay, what do you immediately do now? Well, you know, you're not around as much as you used to. Well, you know, you you don't take me out as often and we don't have romantic nights together anymore. Well, you don't instigate as much. You're immediately defensive. Whereas if I approached it as, you know what I was thinking about the other day? I don't know why it popped into my mind. I was driving down the road and I I passed that restaurant. I remember we went on that date and we went and then we went back to my place and we like we literally like didn't go out for like the rest of the weekend, you know? We just stayed in bed rolling around all the time. God, that was like so I think about that sometimes. Like I that was like the best night. Like that was so that weekend was like one of the best weekends of my life. Like I I mean I still like I still love that about us. Like I still love that about like you're still as like you're hotter to me now than you were even back then. Okay, I have now primed the pump. Yeah. Like you are now like, well, [__] okay, like we're I'm in this like I brought you back to this place where we were together and this self that we were this organism we were together like okay. So there's a right way and a wrong way to do the thing. And you're right, we shouldn't have to, right? Like in a perfect world, we shouldn't have to like accommodate ourselves to the will of the other. Everyone would just give everybody exactly what they need all the time. Okay, but that's like fantasy land. Like in the real world, couldn't we just slightly adjust the way because there's nothing insincere about what I just did. There's nothing dishonest about it. Those are real things. Like those are real things. Like is makeup lying? No. Makeup is accentuating the positive and accentuating the negative. Like if a woman takes off her makeup, would I go, 'You were lying. You don't actually look like that.' No, you're accentuating the positive. Why am I dressed like this? Am I just as good of a lawyer in a t-shirt and jeans? Yeah, it's a mental thing. Like that's like this doesn't you don't What is this? This is a message. This is a signal. It's a symbol. It's a symbol. I take this seriously.
Yeah. Like part of the appeal of me to women is I dress like a man. I dress like a grown ass man. Like there was a time and there are still cultures where men put on a suit to go out to like just go out and drink an espresso and chat with their friends. Like men just like go to Italy. Like there's parts of Italy where men just like, you know, put on a suit. Like a man puts on a suit to just go out to the store. A woman puts on a dress and a little bit of makeup just to go out to the store. She's not in yoga pants 24/7, you know. And again, what is this about? Is it is there something wrong with men wearing, you know, hoodies and jeans? No. But it sends a different message. Like I like sending the message that, yeah, I take [__] seriously. I'm a man to be taken seriously and I take [__] seriously and I have some place to go. I'm doing something important today, you know? And that I think women are drawn to that. Just like a man when a woman is, you know, dressed in a way that she's taking you like you you're dressed nicely, you're put together in a nice way, you're sending me a message and that message is, hey, I'm I take this seriously. I take myself seriously.
By the way, that is very empowering like as a woman to know that I can just put on heels and wear a bodycon dress. Yeah. And have a power over men automatic.
I'm a beautiful and I'm a I'm an adult man who's not in the dating marketplace and when I walk past a beautiful young woman like you walks past me and the scent of a little bit of her perfume it is just lovely like it's lovely in the way that looking at a beautiful flower or a painting like I don't need to take the painting home I can just appreciate it like I don't need to pluck the flower I wouldn't want to pluck the flower but I can admire it. There's there's something about being around like a a beautiful woman or a charming man. Like you're telling me that there's not something lovely about being around a charming man who's attentive and polite and chivalrous.
It's wonderful. And by the way, it's wonderful to be that man. I love opening a door for a woman, young, old, whoever, and having her say, 'Thank you so much.' 'Of course, please.' Like I love... one of my favorite moments of the day is when I'm on the subway and a woman gets on and I stand up and go, 'Would you like to sit?' And she goes, 'Oh, oh, thank you.' And she sits. I love it.
By the way, it's such a nice song and dance.
It's a beautiful dance. When we're both, by the way, she feels amazing that she just was honored in that way. Like, 'Oh, please, you sit.' And I feel amazing that I'm like, 'Oh, yes, of course. I'm going to stand because I'm the man and I'm going to stand and you should sit.' Like what a lovely dance we get to do and how we can both appreciate and enjoy it. And by the way, if she gives me the courtesy of that little smile or when, you know, she gets off the train, she goes, 'Thank you.' And I go, 'Of course.' You know, like what a lovely little interaction we had. And again, I don't have to sleep with her. She doesn't have to sleep with me. I'm not interpreting that signal as anything other than we're just doing this thing together. Like, and what a lovely thing it is to get to do. And I think so many people have been taken away from that little song and dance, which is actually so energizing.
I mean, look, I'm a working woman with a good job and all that, but I still like being the recipient of that kind of attention, chivalry, whatever. And also, I don't know. I just feel like we're we've been discouraged from doing that. How damaging, by the way, do you think the Me Too movement was in this little...
I think I think both sides, Me Too and like the extreme ends of the manosphere, I think have been very damaging because they put everybody on their guard in ways that really make that lovely dance and lovely game I just described like something everyone's uncomfortable doing. And by the way, I I understand it like because there are plenty of men who do not know how to take rejection appropriately or do not know how to read the room. Like when women say like, 'Oh, why aren't men approaching us anymore?' I'm infuriated by that because it's like, 'We're not approaching you because we were told not to approach you.' But we were told it for valid reasons, but the valid reason is that a lot of men don't know how to behave. Like there is nothing wrong with seeing an attractive woman and if she catches your eye and you catch her eye approaching her and if it then becomes clear that this is not she's not then politely stepping away and being very... have a lovely day. Like there are plenty of women that when I go, 'Would you like to sit?' and they go, 'No, no, no, that's fine.' and I go, 'Okay.' and that's it. I'm not going to force you. Like I'm not going to impose that on you. I'm going to say it in a very neutral like, 'Would you like to sit?' and if there is an energy that I get sometimes of no, like, okay, of course, like that's it. Like I'm not... and by the way, I don't go [__] like no. I like, okay, like I don't know what's going on there. It has nothing to do with me. You don't know me. I I did something... by the way, if an elderly man got on the subway, I'm going to get up and offer it to him. Like let like I I believe that the role of a of a younger stronger man is that, you know, we should be deferential to... like part of the joy for me of being a man is being a protector, a provider, all those very cliche things that men like to say we like to do. But I think part of that is I also know how to behave appropriately when I don't get my way. When it does, the game doesn't go exactly like I thought it would. I don't throw a temper tantrum and get overly aggressive about it. And so I think that's why a lot of women stopped playing that game because men didn't know how to behave. Didn't know how to behave, you know? And that's a real thing. Like that's a genuine real thing. I'm not discrediting that at all. I'm not a woman. I don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of the threat of male aggression.
Do men tell you that they feel like they can't approach women the way they used to?
So, what are we supposed to do? Should we start approaching men? Like, I don't know what like...
You know, I don't think that that'll really work. I think long term that won't work. I think we have to we have to just we just have to stop we have to stop this silly game and we have to go, okay guys, what what can we all just agree we're going to reformat the hard drive here. We're going to turn it off and turn it back on again like a computer that's not working. Like we're going to close the app and then reopen it. Like we're going to... this isn't working. All agree this isn't working. No one's having fun. Like let's just agree no one's having fun. Like you're driving down the road, you realize you're lost. Don't hit the gas. Stop. Stop. Look at the map. Figure out where the [__] you went wrong. Or just stop. Like you don't keep going in the wrong direction. We keep going in the wrong... We are doubling and tripling down in the wrong direction. No one's having fun. Let's just stop and say that and then go, okay, what feels good in conversation with each other. You. This is not the first conversation I have had with a young, smart, single woman. Danielle Robay, your friend, like plenty of other people I've had this exact conversation. Jana Hocking, I can name like 15 women I've had this conversation with. And they all want the same things, right? And they're really the same things the men want, too. Deep connection, fulfilling sex, the prospect of a future that doesn't feel so sort of lonely and isolated and where you feel some connection to another person, connection to something bigger than yourself, whether it's a culture or a faith or a family, whatever it might be, anything, you know, like we all kind of want the same things, but we're all so understandably like bobbing and weaving and nervous and the algorithm is feeding the [__] out of that.
So, I think the way to fix it is this. It's just conversations. Like, it's honest, vulnerable conversations. And I do think, and I think Scott Galloway is on to something with this, so is Richard. So is Chris Williamson. I think I think older men have to start talking to younger men about how the [__] to behave. I think women, older women have to talk to younger women about like drop your guard a little bit, play the game, do the dance a little bit. Like we have to, we have a responsibility to each other. This is very important because a lot of the older women and men who have been burned are now giving warnings. They're the only ones talking. They're the only ones talking. They're the only ones talking.
They're the... That's That's what I was going to say. They're the only ones talking. And so everybody is just giving everyone else a warning. And so we're all just like...
No, no, but but the crazy people are talking. That's all that's happening. Like, you know, when I tell people I'm a divorce lawyer, they go, 'Oh my god, you must have some stories.' The most... most divorces are not brutal. Like most divorces are like my divorce where it's two people that grew apart. The Venn diagram of things they had in common got smaller, but they still really care about each other. Maybe they have kids in common and they still... and they end their relationship. They have to figure out how to divide things, divide their time with their kids, divide their assets. And then they go on to find fulfilling lives. My ex-wife's been married for 15 years to a wonderful guy. Wonderful guy. My older son just got married recently. We all hung out together. Had the most wonderful time at the wedding. He and I were tying the bow ties of the ushers. My ex-wife was like joking with both of us. Like two men who she's, you know, been married to. They've been married for 15 years, far longer than she and I were ever married. Like that's what a lot of divorces are like. Like it's just two people. Like a lot of breakups are just two people that figured out, okay, we're not really right for each other. Like there's a lot of people I love that I wouldn't want to be married to. Like I'm a great ex-husband. I'm not a great husband. That's okay. Doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It's a It's a job description. It's a skill set. I'm not great at that skill set.
But I would imagine that you're still a good partner if you were to be a good partner to the right person. So, but so what makes you say you're not a good husband, though?
Because I I think to be... I I wasn't a good husband to the woman I was married to. She wanted someone who was very... the the man she married is the perfect man for her. He's a therapist. He listens more than he talks. He's incredibly patient and he considers work something that you have to do, but it's not really like the fulfillment of your purpose in life.
