Narcissists & Cheaters ALWAYS Use These 11 Traps to Pull You Back When Losing Control | James Sexton

I've heard a lot of men, they get caught cheating and they say, 'This is a mistake. It meant nothing.' The response is, 'So, you blew up our life and our marriage for nothing.'

For nothing. Narcissists are so afraid of that narcissistic wound. I'm wrong. I'm weak. I'm a liar being exposed that they'll do almost anything to prevent that. What I'm doing is I'm actually getting them to commit to principles that I'm then going to use to snap their neck.

Yes.

This is going to be a hot take. Here it comes. Don't kill me in the comments. I have a theory about women and men. I'm going to say it out loud for the first time.

I've seen so many things in 25 plus years of practicing law. No one has ever come into my office and said, 'I would like this to be really awful and protracted. I'd like to spend as much money as possible in legal fees. I'd like this to just blow up everything I have. I'd like to ruin my children. I'd like to burn any goodwill and history that my co-parent and I have. I'd like to alienate everyone around me. I'd like to become the most awful, vicious version of myself humanly possible and be irreparably scarred at the end of it.' No one's ever said that.

They all come in and go, 'Look, I want to be fair.'

Yes. Oh, more so narcissists than anyone else because they are convinced of the certainty of their innocence. It is never their fault. It is never their fault.

Their definition of fair. See, because their spouse is in an office somewhere saying, 'I just want to be fair also.' But they're asking for totally opposite things because that's their definition of fair. You know, if there's a line from a Talking Head song, 'Facts all come with points of view, and facts don't do what I want them to.' And that's the truth. Like, narcissists more than anything will not concede the possibility of their error.

Like, if you say, I've had plenty of narcissistic clients. I've cross-examined no shortage of narcissists, which, by the way, cross-examining a narcissist is the most fun a human being can have in life.

Let's start with how to handle them.

Yeah. I mean, what I will say is in relationship, how to handle a narcissist is to get away from them, right? Like that's the answer, you know, because trying to fix a narcissist, like that's like saying like, you know, I want to teach a dog how to drive. Like you're not going to be able to do it. It doesn't mean you're a bad teacher. And by the way, it doesn't mean the dog is dumb. Like you just set out an impossible task. And so I often ask myself when I'm doing something, am I trying to teach a dog how to drive?

So that's what happens with narcissists is you do just have to get away from them, right? So, but the process of extricating yourself from connections with a narcissist, by the way, particularly as a co-parent, right? So, if it's just about money, most people are like, 'Let him have the money and just give me my freedom.' Like, they just become like Ike and Tina Turner, like give me my name, set me free, you can have everything else, you know? And I cannot tell you how many women have come into my office and said, 'You can have it all. You can have all the stuff.' The problem is thinking that if you give the bully your lunch money that he's going to leave you alone is insane because you keep giving the bully your lunch money. You have the right to. He's going to take your bike. He's eventually going to take your bike. Like because all you're doing is saying to him, 'Okay, let's make a deal. Let's make a deal. Like I'm gonna back down from you and I'm going to just give you what you want and that's enough, right? That's enough. You want my lunch money. You can have my lunch money.' The bully doesn't want your lunch money. The bully wants you to submit. The bully wants to have power over you. Why? Because if they don't, it's a narcissistic wound and they can't handle that, right? So, you can't reconcile narcissistic wounds with divorce.

It's the ultimate public rejection of the narcissist, who, by the way, it is essential to their self-image that they're perfect. So even when I'm their lawyer, I have to tread very lightly because I'm making them look at some things that the other lawyer is about to cross-examine them on. So they have to be prepared to answer for it and getting up and saying like, 'No, I'm blameless. I'm perfect.' Like this isn't going to play well on the witness stand. Like narcissists thrive on keeping scrutiny away from them and misdirection. They're like a really good magician, you know? Like don't look over here. I'll do this over here so that you don't look over here. So, they're really good at like flipping the script. And it's you instead of them. And you know, even like you could walk in on them cheating on you with your sister and they would be like, 'Why were you here? You weren't supposed to be here today. Is it that you don't trust me? What did I do that you wouldn't trust?' You know, the fact that what do you mean I didn't trust you because I knew what was actually happening. 'Oh, so you're just the smartest person in the room, I guess.' You know, and I get, you know, this is what this is is you've just always been so brilliant and I'm a fool and you're right. This is and all of a sudden you're apologizing. 'I'm sorry I interrupted,' you know, but that's what happens. And so, as a client, when you're trying to manage a narcissist and the optics of a narcissist, and by the way, they're so charming most of the time. Like, you've got great raw ingredients as a courtroom lawyer because they're good-looking or they're really like they're usually very persuasive. You know, if only they had fangs, you know, like it really but it's the truth. Like when I imagine again I don't believe necessarily in the devil, but like people imagine the devil is like fangs and I'm like no, I imagine like the best looking person ever like because the devil sends a limo. God makes you take the stairs like you know the devil just tells you how amazing you are and how wonderful you are. Tells you everything you want to hear, the sweetest lies, you know. So, for me as a divorce lawyer, the challenge is like anybody in a relationship with a narcissist, like I'm in a relationship with a narcissist. The good news is like I get to send them home, right? And I can fire them if I need to. Yes. You know, and very often they fire me. They fire me a lot. They often go through three, four, five lawyers because they don't want to hear the truth. They don't want to hear, 'Yeah, you need to figure out how to talk about the fact you got this wrong. You need to get in front of this.' You know, I have a theory or a technique at trial. I call it the Eight Mile theory because from the Eminem movie 8 Mile. And if you've seen it, you know, okay, so the last scene, as you remember, Eminem knows that the other guy is about to say all these things about him, all these embarrassing truths about him. So, he uses the last rap battle to just like, 'Yeah, here's all the things like you're about to say about me.' All the things. Yeah. When he says like, 'Yeah, I'm a bum. I live in a trailer with my mom. Yeah, I got beat up by you guys. You cheated. My girlfriend cheated on me.' And he tells it and then he goes, 'Here, tell these people something they don't know about me.' And the guy just is like frozen because he and he wins because of that. So I call it the Eight Mile theory because I say to clients, listen, I want to bring out on my direct examination of you every piece of ammunition the other side is about to hit us with. And I want you to talk about it. And I want you to talk about it in an honest way that builds sympathy. Like I want you to get up and say, you know, if you sent a horrible text message insulting this person, I'm going to make you read it out loud. And then I'm going to say, 'Do you think that was a good idea to send that?' And you're going to say like, 'Yeah, no, it wasn't. It was, you know, I'm human. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have sent that.' And I'm watching the other side cross out pages of their cross-examination because I just took all their thunder away. I took their 'you can't handle the truth' moment out. It's gone. So, the problem when you're dealing with a narcissist is they're so busy defending everything they do that, oh, no, there's nothing to say. I'm perfect. I'm blameless. I got it all right. I don't want to acknowledge that. I'm not going to concede that. It's weak for me to concede that. Why would you ever concede that? And they're arguing with me about that strategy. So, what you have to do is it's almost like dealing with someone with like significant substance use disorder. Like you have to say, you know, I'm not saying you have a problem with cocaine, but you know, a lot of people are saying that you've said they're wrong. I totally agree. Like, but, you know, maybe it would be good to like let's go get an evaluation just for the optics of it, just to be able to like show that, yeah, there's no issue, you know, like because you have to do this like Jedi mind trick, this judo thing, like let their own momentum be the thing, you know? So, when you're dealing with a narcissist,

I'm aligned with you. I'm still on the same team.

No, no. I'm only on your team. But you know, here's what I'm afraid that somebody's going to say this. So, we have to get around that. How are we going to get around that? That's our task because I know it's not true. I know you're a very good father and I know that she's going to come up with all these examples and some of them are going to be totally false, but some of them are going to have a ring of truth to them and it's all sort of the optics of it and she's going to explain it the wrong way like I know she had those bruises and you said that that was she was attacking you and you pushed her away and then she hit the door and it was of course I know I know what you told me but you know they're going to like have those recordings where you're yelling at her and I know you said that you know that was that she'd worked you up so much and that she had yelled at you before that and she gives it as good as she gets. I've heard like 50 million narcissists say that to me, but we have to so you kind of give them like a gentle version of the we have to confront this and I'm on your team.

We have the same goal. The goal is I'm here for you.

You know, and the way to do that is we're going to be confronted with some things that are challenging. We need to think about that, you know, and that is, I think, the best way to manage a narcissist to the extent you have to, you know. Again, if you can't get away from them, the best thing to do is try to figure out ways to get around them. And it's actually I think it's easier to manage a narcissist. It's not a good long-term plan, but because all you have to do is just keep feeding their ego. Keep feeding the fact that they're right. So, one of the pieces of advice when dealing with a narcissist is because...

So one of the pieces of advice when dealing with a narcissist is because very often people who are very narcissistic, their spouse has had an inside view of them going to war because the thing narcissists love that they love going to war because everybody's got horns or a halo. And usually they start out with a halo and then the minute they confront the narcissist and give them any kind of narcissistic wound, suddenly they have horns. There's nothing good about this person. They're the worst person in the whole world. They're dead to us. We're cutting them off. And so when you're a person who's trying to extricate yourself or help navigate someone extricating themselves from a person who's convinced that they're utterly blameless, it's challenging.

If you're in a relationship with a narcissist and you're not at a place where you can start to extricate yourself from it, because that's a process, the best thing you can do when you have to frame dialogue or frame what's happening is, look, I'm with you. I'm on your team, but these people are saying this and how do we stop them from that? Because you're feigning alignment with this person.

And again, sometimes that's the band-aid on a bullet wound that you need for that moment because this isn't... this is... I've represented victims of domestic violence, intimate partner abuse, coercive control for over 25 years because I did it in law school in my third year. I went to Fordham Law School and I worked in the domestic violence law project that they have. So under student practice order while I was in law school I was already defending victims of intimate partner abuse. So I do a tremendous amount of pro bono work for various domestic violence agencies in New York City and over half of the women... Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. No, I mean, it's the most rewarding thing I get to do, but it's also sometimes the most frustrating thing I ever do because nine times out of 10, if I can get them safe and out the door, which requires strategic tactical, it's like a professional hit. Like we've got orders of protection in place, temporary custody of the kids, the dog, everything else before he even knows an action's been commenced. I've had women that we have to get them another cell phone so they can leave the location tracking one that he has on the kitchen table while they come out to my office to sign the papers or to meet me at the Starbucks near their place so they can sign the papers because if they leave the house, he'll go, 'Where did you go? Where were you? Why were you there? Who were you talking to?' They monitor all their communications. They monitor their text messages. Like we can't communicate. So we have to be really really careful. And anyone will tell you who works in the domestic violence space the most physically dangerous time is when a victim of intimate partner abuse is extricating themselves from the situation because when the abuser starts to lose control, that's when they flail. So the hardest part is when we've done it perfectly because we've done it a bunch of times and we've done it perfectly and now we have power. We have leverage like and we worked so hard to get it and that's when I get the phone call. 'Hey, can we rescind the order of protection? Can we, you know, he called me.' 'Wait, there's an order of protection. He's not allowed to call you.' 'Well, his brother called and said that he's really broken up and he's worried about him and I look I'm angry at him. I know, but I still love him and I care about him and he's the father of my kids and we talked and he was so he was crying and he was, you know, like this taught me everything it taught me I'm never going to do this again. I see now how wrong I was. He's saying he's going to go to counseling. I've been wanting us to go to counseling for so...' and I'm listening to them and you know there was a time 10 or so years ago where I was impatient in that situation and I would be like okay but like when he kills you in six months like don't call me and it was frustration like it was frustration because it was like oh my god like you know he's only doing this because you're winning and you're only winning because we were all so careful in handling this and now he's just he knows this is the lever. He knows like he knows you have this heart like he knows he found the victim here that's the right victim for a person like him. And what you come to learn is that I tell them in advance like okay like it took time to learn how to do this but I tell them in advance I'm like when we win the first round I promise you he's going to call like and don't take the call or if you take it don't be fooled. Like don't be fooled. This is your kid when he's got a math test and he wakes up in the morning goes, 'Oh, I'm not feeling very good.' It's like, 'No, no, you don't want to go to your math test.' Like, you have to hear this as well. And sometimes telling them in advance is like the weapon they needed. Another thing I do a lot is I have some women I represented 15, 10 years ago who successfully, you know, extricated themselves from a domestic violence situation being married to a narcissist at a high level and now they are in these amazing post-divorce lives and they made it out and I will call them and say I have someone I represented 10 years ago in my conference room right now. Can you come in and talk to this person? Oh, wow. And 99.9% of the time they're like, 'Absolutely. I'll be there in half an hour.' Amazing. And they'll come in and they have a voice and a resonance that I would never have.

Uh-huh.

And they'll sit across from this person and say like, 'Listen, I remember sitting at this same conference room table with Jim and believing my life was over. This would never be okay. That this man was a god. He would take everything from me. That it didn't matter how many lawyers I had or how much that I would never be okay. And I was wrong. I was wrong. It's going to be okay.' And I have to tell you like the most gratifying thing is just even connecting those people because again like they're tacticians narcissists. Like that's a gift to some degree. Like they're really good at manipulating people. So you have to get ahead of that. You have to figure out how to control for that and how to get... But I've also learned that like if you can't and if this person says like, 'Okay, I'm taking him back. Like let's rescind the orders of protection.' I've now learned that what I have to say to them is okay. Like you know that's you get to decide that like because I don't want to be another person taking away their autonomy and agency. Like I don't want to be another man telling them you know what you're an idiot fine do whatever you want to do. Don't come crying to me because that's exactly what he would do.

So I don't want to like you know like Nietzsche said like whoever fights monsters should see to it that they don't become a monster you know. So I believe that like the world needs dangerous men because we keep the other dangerous men from the door. But I genuinely believe like you don't want to become a monster. And so, I've learned in the last 10 years or so that I have to say, look, I'm worried and here's the worry I have, but you get to make this decision and I'm here. Like, I'm here. So, if this works out, great. If it doesn't, I'm here and we'll do what needs to be done again. Will we have the same opportunities? No. His radar is going to be up. But this is a choice you get to make. And sometimes being a little softer in that way and not getting frustrated is actually like the remedy. It really helps because again, I don't want to revictimize someone who's been victimized.

Yeah. So, the great thing about being a trial lawyer is everybody has to shut up when you say the five magic words, please call your first witness. Like everybody in that room has to shut like conferences in court, which is like the first few appearances. It's kind of like a Baghdad market. Everybody's yelling stuff. Nobody has to prove anything. But yeah, I mean cross-examination is at its best it's about laying traps because the thing narcissists can't really survive scrutiny. Like scrutiny is their biggest enemy, which is why they're so good at misdirection and it's why they're so good at when they're attacked, they attack much harder back because the best defense is a good offense, you know. So, what's great about cross-examination is I get to ask questions in a manner that the only way you're allowed to answer is yes or no, you know? So, you don't get to explain like I get to say, isn't it a fact that A, B, and C? Yes or no. Didn't you do D? But the better thing you get to do on cross-examination is I know the story they're trying to tell and I'm going to try to get them to think they're going to get to tell that story. But what I'm doing is I'm actually getting them to commit to principles that I'm then going to use to snap their neck. Because what I'm going to do is I'm going to get them to commit to something. So, for example, they will say like invariably in a custody case, they'll say, uh, she is keeping the kids from me. She's keeping the kids from me. She's not spending time with the kids. She's keeping the kids from me. And so, instead of saying, well, isn't it true that she did this and isn't it true that she let you do this? He's always going to have an answer for that. Well, yes, but only after I begged. Or, oh, yes, but that was because she was being watched. So what you do is you say, 'So you're concerned that she's not going to allow you to spend time with the children. Is that right?' Yes. 'And you're concerned about that because that would be very bad for your children, right?' Yeah. 'And you actually believe that she just does not understand what's good for your children. Isn't that right?' And he's absolutely and he's going, 'This is the worst lawyer ever. How did Sexton get this gig?' Like he's playing right into my theory of things. But really, what am I getting to do? I'm getting them to commit to principles. I just got him to commit to if you withhold the kids from a person, you're a bad person. If you are a bad person, you're a bad parent. Like, and now I'm going to pull out 50 examples, demonstrated examples of him doing the thing he just said is bad. And the great thing about narcissists is you can always count on their ego being there and their willingness to like double down heavy on it.

Coming up, one of the key differences between men and women in my experience when it comes to infidelity is like women are better at it.

So I've even had I had one a couple of months ago where she was my client said like, 'He's never had anything to do with our kids' schooling ever. Like he's just never not one parent-teacher conference like nothing. Like he's a finance guy. All he does is work. And now he wants 50-50 custody.' Like he didn't just want 50-50 custody. He said he came in and said he wanted sole custody. And it's always I want sole custody because she's mentally ill. She's mentally ill. Like she's calling me a narcissist because she's mentally ill. And by the way, sometimes people who've been in abusive relationships for an extended period of time have complex PTSD.

And they present as almost mentally ill. Like they come in and they're kind of super anxious. They're a little bit paranoid. They often have like substance use issues because they're not, you know, handling the stress and chaos of this particularly well. So, they do what? And by the way, narcissists, it's in their favor to keep a person medicated, drunk. It gives them ammunition against this person. Narcissists are always cultivating ammunition. They don't know when they're going to need it, but they're like, 'Yeah, let's put together a dossier on damn near everybody because not everybody can help me, but everybody could hurt me.' It's their world of enemies, you know? So what you want to say to this person is look here's how we have to frame this like to a narcissist what you have to do is create a situation where they're going to talk about how heroic they are. They're going to talk about how wonderful they are. You can count on that. And I had this case where we knew he had never been involved in the child's schooling ever. But how do you prove it? Like it's kind of hard to prove like that a you know you don't want to drag all the kids' teachers in to testify.

You could, but it's like people don't want to do that. You know, I've done it, but I prefer not to blow up people's the parts of their life are already blowing up. You don't want to blow the whole thing up, but you would bring in... So I remember cross-examining this guy and I said to him, 'Now, your son recently had a problem in English class, isn't that right?' It's like, 'Yes, yes.' And I'm like, 'Now, did you speak with his teachers?' 'Yes.' 'Yeah, I talked to his teachers.' 'You did?' 'Yes.' 'Did you talk with his English teacher?' 'Yes.' 'Mr. Smith?' 'Yes.' 'And you called him.' 'Yes.' 'And you talked to him.' 'Yeah.' 'How long did you talk to him for?' 'I don't remember exactly.' 'Have you met him?' 'Oh, yeah. I met him once or twice at the school.' Now, I don't have Mr. Smith on my witness list. Like, I don't have the teacher on my witness list because my client doesn't want to do that, but I just keep getting him to tell. 'So, what did you discuss?' 'Oh.' 'And did you discuss the fact that your son's been missing classes?' 'Oh.' 'And did you discuss the...' 'And how long did...' 'And how many times have you talked to Mr. Smith?' And he just kept doubling down of like, 'Oh, I don't keep a ledger of how often I talk to my son's teacher. I talked to him several times.' And then I said, 'Now you do know your son's teacher is a woman, right? Like Mr. Smith is Jane Smith is a woman, but you said you'd met her, right? I mean, you said you met Mr. Smith, but in fact, like Mr. Smith is Mrs. Smith and is a woman and not trans. Like this is a real this is a person.' And he imploded. He's like, 'Oh, I might have been mixing him up with someone else.' Now that's it. Your credibility is gone. It's nil, you know. So, the key is to like set traps, you know, line up feints, you know, create opportunities. I mean, in some ways, they're kind of the easiest people to tack around. Like, I had a case recently where we were arguing over visitation schedule, and my client really wanted Memorial Day this year because her brother was having a party of some kind, and she wanted the kids to come. And she said, you know, can you get me Memorial Day and usually whoever has Memorial Day, the other person gets Labor Day.

It's kind of like you alternate certain holidays.

And she was like, I know it's really important to me. So I was like, okay, let me see if I could do it. So I go to my opposing counsel. I go, my client really wants Labor Day. My client wants Labor Day just this year and your client can have Memorial Day. But it's really important my client has Labor Day. Oh, so... and of course she goes in and comes back out. She goes, 'No, he can't do it. He already has plans for the kids for this.' I'm like, 'Come on. This is important to my client. We're asking for this one thing. We can't do no. No.' I said, 'Fine. Okay. We'll have Memorial Day. You'll have Labor Day, but next year we're flipping.' 'They're fine. That's what we'll do.' I go back to my client. I got you Memorial Day. She's like, 'How did you do it? He agreed to it.' I'm like, 'Yes, but not how you think.'

I knew that if I said black, he'd say white. I knew if I said five, he'd say four. So, you just go in and just accept the fact that, okay, this person's just going to be obstreperous, obstructionist, contrarian, everything they could possibly do to be difficult, they're going to do. So, great. Like, if I know what you're going to do is the most aggressive thing, I know what you're going to do.

You know, for 20 years I've done Brazilian jiu-jitsu. One of the things that's really, you know, interesting about like and it's taught me a lot about practicing law because one of the things you learn in Brazilian jiu-jitsu is like if you grab my wrist, you're holding my wrist, but I'm also controlling your arm because you've attached yourself to me as much as I'm being held by you. So now, okay, you have my wrist, but I have your arm like, and so you have two choices. You can let go in which case my wrist is free or I can control your arm and which is bigger the wrist or the arm like what's the long lever right so that's how you have to approach this kind of thing like narcissists are so afraid of that narcissistic wound I'm wrong I'm weak I'm a liar any of that being exposed that they'll do almost anything to prevent that so they will give up like lots of really important tactical ground to win this one little stupid point. So great, you can have it. Like, we're going to let you have that and we're going to just open up everything around you now because you've thrown everything. So, I'm constantly when I'm litigating against a narcissist, I'm constantly throwing up enemies for them to go after rather than the main thing. I create like choice confusion.

Well, like if there's five properties and there's one that I really want, the minute that that person knows that's the one I want, it's over. They're going to everything. They're going to make sure I don't get that one. So, you just start creating choice confusion like, 'Yeah, whatever. We have five properties. Let's figure out which ones, you know, which one does your client want?' My client's kind of agnostic as to any of them, you know, whichever you does your client have any preferences, you know, and what you'll see is like you'll see the gears in their head like start to smoke because they want to know like no, no, I want like I need some point of entry. Like I need to know what you want so I can figure out what I want because what I want is whatever you want because I don't want you to get what you want. So don't give them anything like don't give them any information. Like I keep them completely in the dark. And so this is another metaphor. When I was a kid, my parents used to throw barbecues. And my mom would go to the store and buy all the ingredients. She would chop them all up. She'd marinade the meat. She'd like put all this like and then my dad would put it on the grill and then take it off the grill. And everyone would tell my dad he's like a great cook. And I remember even as a kid watching that and thinking like she did like 95% of the labor.

He literally like did this. That was it. Like that was his kebabs. Like that was it, you know? But like I get it because he did that last step and that last step's like really important. But to discount the 95% of the effort, right? So, I always tell people like cross-examining narcissists. It's so fun. Like, it's the coolest thing in the world. Like, it's really like it's my favorite part of my job.

Yeah. It's like playing three-dimensional chess. It's a multivaried equation. It's strategy. It's there's so much going on in there. And it's my I mean, I just love it. Like, I love it in a way that, you know, there's some things I'm good at. There's a lot of things I'm not good at. This I'm amazing at. Like I can say that like I am to this what Yo-Yo Ma is to cello. Like I don't know why like but this is what I'm good at. But you know the barbecue metaphor the reason why I said it is that a lot of what you need to do when dealing with extricating yourself from a relationship with a person who's got, you know, significant narcissism. It's the prep. Like by the time we walk into the courtroom, that's just throwing it on the grill. Like everything is about sort of setting up the process and the sooner that you start to work tactically with someone who has experience at this the better.

I believe I have a PhD in infidelity. I've told people that I have a PhD in infidelity because I've represented the cheater and the cheated on for 25 years. I've represented the paramour, right? So the mistress or the there isn't a male equivalent to mistress. Mister, I don't know. But there's like the paramour, you know? So yeah, I've seen it from every possible angle and I've seen every form of infidelity. You know, there's a chapter in my book called the five types of infidelity.

Yes.

Um not as much. It's more of a male thing.

So again, this episode is all about you helping us women understand men narcissism. I'm happy to do it. Yeah.

They're more often than not not like they're usually not like they're rarely as beautiful, educated, poised, put together they're very rarely that.

There's more. There's a long list. I mean those are the ones that made it into the press. Like, believe me, I could list about a dozen other people you've seen on Netflix, you know, that the same thing happened. And by the way, like those are just famous people.

I mean, I have my theory. I don't claim to know for sure. This is my theory.

So my theory on it is from having seen it from all kinds of angles, representing the person who was sleeping with the nanny and representing the person who's married to the person who's sleeping with the nanny and having to often sometimes talk to the nanny because they're potentially a witness in a proceeding. Um there's a couple of theories I have. So one of them is a very basic clear one which is it's just like the novelty the new shiny object. It's kind of almost laziness like you know they're there. Kind of around, you know, it's like why did you eat that? I don't know. It was there. You know, these are people that are like high performing busy people and they're like, 'All right, like I'm just going to...' When the Coldplay CEO thing happened last year, I had my staff laughing because they were like, 'Yeah, he was like sleeping with, you know, someone who works in the company.' I'm like, 'Yeah, it's called good management. Like he's at the office all the time.' He was like, 'Listen, guys, I can't leave and go find a mistress who's... you'll be fine. Come on over here.' Like you know and of course I was saying it jokingly but you know the truth is you could say like yeah familiarity like you're just around each other proximity so that's a basic explanation because...

One of the key differences between men and women, in my experience, when it comes to infidelity, is like women are better at it. Like when they do it, women make better choices with infidelity. Like a woman looks at this situation and goes, 'I'm about to put my whole life and family on the line.' You know, maybe like Brad Pitt in his prime, you know, is like, 'And we could, okay, we'll do it here, but then I'll make sure that there's no this and I'll tell him that I'm going to be in this place.' And men, it's like, 'Oh, I saw this woman behind the dumpster at the 7-Eleven. Like, yeah, why not?' Like it's very sort of impulsive a lot of the time. And then, unfortunately, it turns into like a habit or it becomes something bigger. It's not just like a dalliance, it turns into something bigger.

So the simple explanation is just to say that, yeah, it's proximity. The nanny's around, they're there. I think you can get a little deeper into it and say they're also there with the kids. They're in the home. There's something like an intimacy developing there because you're trusting them with this incredibly important thing, right? And they're showing their nurturing, caregiving side all the time, but they're young. Usually they're younger. And that's where my theory came out, which is they're kind of in some ways the wife when you met the wife.

Like when the man met the wife, she had her own life. She had her own goals. There were parts of her life that she shared with him, but then there was a whole part that was kind of a mystery. Like where did she go? She would go someplace else. They lived in different places. Like no man's a hero to his butler, you know? Like when you're around each other, that kind of proximity. I'm not suggesting that always happens. I don't think familiarity always breeds contempt, but I do think that sometimes what makes those early days of a relationship so cool is like you're interested and you're interesting, you know, like you're still a little bit of a mystery to each other.

Like, you know, you and Tom are like very close, very, but like you've heard a lot of his stories. You were there, like you were there, like you don't, you know, so it's not, you know, 'What'd you do today? You were here. You were here for the whole thing.' So the conversations turn more into, 'What do you think? How did this feel? Like, what do you think about this thing?' Because you don't have to say like, 'Do you have any sisters?' Like, you already know the answer to that, you know? So this person's a bit like the wife when they first met. They're a mystery. They have some life outside of the house, but they're also like in the home with the kids.

And by the way, for the nanny, in the nanny's defense, she gets to see like a soft side of this person. You know, very often like you need the nanny there because like you're taking the wife out to dinner or on vacation and it's like, 'Oh, look, he's...' like you get to see the best of this person. You know, you don't often fight in front of the nanny or if you're abusive, you don't abuse your spouse when company's over. You know, you wait until it's alone. So you're seeing this best version of a person.

So the solution I propose in that chapter is, I think, actually a very good solution for men and for women, but for the women who are trying to nanny-proof their marriage. The answer is not like, 'Oh, hire unattractive nannies,' because you know some of these things have proven that that doesn't work. Although again, like I don't know that you should hire a super hot nanny. Like that's kind of, you know, like if I have junk food in the house, you know what I mean? I can control my food environment better than my brain. So I don't know that you want to...

That's not an invalid thought. I agree. I say something like that insofar as if the only thing keeping your spouse from cheating is you monitoring their whereabouts all the time, yes, it's not worth the energy. Exactly. Like if that's the only thing. So I don't disagree.

But I also think that, like, you know, it is pragmatic to, like, if you hang around a barber shop long enough, you might think about getting a haircut. Like you might not, but you might think about it and then everyone feels a little icky, you know? So I don't know. I don't know that testing our spouses...

I know you don't do that.

Yeah, I won't make a joke. But see, you know, you also speak from the frame of someone who has like a secure attachment style with your partner and the two of you have a rapport where you're thick as thieves, you know, like so it's easy to then go like, 'Yeah, I would love to see what happens,' because you know the answer is you know what would happen, which is nothing. He would come in and go, 'Oh my god, I need you to come and tell me, like I can't believe.' But you know, I don't need to be the first person to tell you that Tom is something different. Like you guys are both built different.

So that's why you, I think, have some of the things you have in life is that you're built a little different. Now again, are they teachable skills? Yeah, I think they're teachable skills, but I think like I am in a courtroom, you guys are in relationship. Like I have a lot to teach about what it is that I do, but I don't know what it's like to maintain deep intimate connection with a person for 24 years as their spouse. Like you know that you have a PhD in that. I don't have a PhD in that. So this is part of the reason I was interested in this conversation is that I think there's things for me to learn from you when it comes to things like that and from Tom.

So I think fundamentally though, like the solution to this problem is the parts of you that were the nanny, right? Like autonomy, agency, making time for yourself, having some time outside of the home. Why not cultivate those? The temptation is I'm worried about my marriage being fragile, so I'm going to make it my number one priority and always be on top of it. I'm going to be a helicopter mom of my marriage.

And I understand that logic. I really do. It comes from a really good deep place of empathy, and like, but you're also like now just there all the time. Like if we break it down to the fundamentals, there's you and there's me. When the relationship started, there's Tom and there's Lisa. And then there's Tom and Lisa, right? There's the you, the me, and the we.

You know, I was having a conversation with a friend the other day that like the four, I think the four most beautiful words a person could say is like, 'You're my favorite person.' Like those are the four most beautiful words to hear.

My son when he was like five or six years old. Yeah. When my son was like maybe even he might have been younger, might have been like three or four. We were doing something fun and he was having a good time and he looked at me and said, 'Dad, you're my favorite person.' And I remember thinking like, 'Oh, that's like the nicest thing someone's ever said to me.' Like it chokes you up to even think about it. It was the most beautiful. But what is marriage? What is coupling other than saying like there's eight billion people in the world and you're my favorite person?

Like to hear that and to say that and for it to be true. That's why like I think love is the greatest thing in the world. Like it's the most, it's the worthiest pursuit in the world because at the core you're Tom's favorite person and he's your favorite person. Like and those four words, that's the greatest gift in the world, right? But in that is you. You are my favorite person. Yeah, we are my favorite couple. But we is you plus me. And if you lose you in the we, like if you starts to go away in the we, you're taking my favorite person from me. Like why would you do that to me?

Like it's so easy to lose who you are. Like, and I think women really know this because I do believe like women put the other first. They put their spouse first. They put their kids first. This is a huge mistake that women make with very good intentions. I'm going to put all of these other people first, right? And where are you anymore? When's the last time you like went out and just did some things for yourself, developed your own identity, developed your own interests, became someone who like when we first met is interesting and interested, right? What's making you interesting? Like what are the things that you're passionate about? What are the things you're excited about?

So that's why I feel like I'm not doing women a disservice when I say, 'Do you know the solution to the nanny problem?' Here's what it's not. Talking about how all men suck. Oh man, it's not the solution. Like I understand it's fun. Makes for viral TikToks. Like if I got on here right now and I was like, 'Here's the thing about men. They suck.' It'd be like, 'Yes, queen.' Like everybody'd be all into it. I get it. I get it.

Anytime I say something in the gender war that squarely falls on one side or the other, I get tons of praise. I get tons of views. I get tons of likes and comments because all you have to do is say, 'You know what's bad about women? They're just awful.' And all the manosphere and red pill goes, 'Oh my god, preach, brother.' And if I say, you know, the thing about men is they suck and women are so much better, then all the women are like, 'Yes, he's amazing.' And by the way, I'm very even in my presentation of this stuff.

Because again, I wish there was just one team that was the winner and the other one. A world where men are flailing is not a world where women are thriving, right? Ever. Ever. And a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving. Like we need each other. We're stuck with each other. So I really believe that cultivating the me, right? Like who you are is the greatest gift you can give to your marriage.

Everything tastes better when you're hungry. Like when you've had some time away from your family, you realize how much you love your time with your family if you're in the right ecosystem. So I think there's a lot of beauty in that and I think that is the solution to the distraction of the nanny because the nanny is a distraction.

That's a simple explanation. Yeah.

And it feels kind of counterintuitive because it's like the solution that most people come up with is just like beat the crap out of yourself, right? Like, oh, this is my failing. This is my fault. This is my... I'm getting older. I'm not as attractive. I'm not as whatever. Why did I not satisfy him? Like, and that's not the answer. The answer is actually this person picked you. You're special, unique, you know.

And I think that there are two contradictory things that are huge mistakes people make at the start of a marriage. And they're going to sound like a contradiction, but one of them is believing that getting married is going to change this person. Like, oh yeah, he's a partier now, but if we get married, he won't be. Oh, he's a Casanova now, but if we get married, he won't be anymore. He drinks too much now, but if we get married, he won't. He works too much now, but if we get married, he won't. So thinking that marriage is going to change this person is a huge red flag and problem.

The other problem is thinking this person won't change. Thinking, oh yeah, this is who they are and this is who they'll always be. And by the way, like that's a real compliment to say like, I like this person so much I hope they never change. Like this dish is so delicious, I want to eat it every single night for the rest of my life. But the truth is like you're going to change. You're going to change. Life changes all of us. Like if you don't change from 25 to 45, there's something seriously wrong with you.

So I think there is tremendous value in just realizing that like yeah this person's going to change. But what did you do? Like see even in that story, what did you do? You shared. You were brave. That's a really amazing thing. Like because if you're not scared, it's not brave. Like you have to be scared for it to be brave. And his response was, 'What kind of husband would I be if I put clean underwear ahead of my wife's happiness?'

Yeah, we'll break it down by men and women.

Yeah. So whoever it was that created the concept, the word soulmate, like we divorce lawyers owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude because they've been really good for business. Oh. Because what is this soulmate? But this idea that there's like the one true penis, you know? There's like the one true vag... like there's the one true person. I made you spit your water. I love that.

That was my goal. It's like, I cannot make her laugh that hard. I can leave now. No, I mean, the truth is like we really do create this... and I think Hollywood does it. Like I think Hollywood, media, and now social media does this, like the one...

Well look, if your education about sex was porn, you'd have a really weird view of what sex is, okay? Because what is porn but an idealized, stylized, very specific, very visual representation, okay? It's a really interesting story, you know what I mean?

But the thing is you're married to a person, they're human, they make mistakes, they're not perfect. And so the concept of a soulmate is your person when you find them is going to be the best friend, best conversationalist, best lover, best travel companion, best roommate, best co-parent, best really. Like that's the skill set. That's incredible. Like you found one person that is all of those things.

Like I'm not saying there isn't somebody out there that's going to say in the comments, 'Oh yes, I found that.' Good on you. That's great. But that's like saying like, 'Oh, you're a great cook. Can you farm, too?' Like, wait, no. Those are two totally different things. Like, so you don't have to. Everything is equally important, and if this person's not perfect, you didn't have your soulmate. You found the wrong one. They're still out there.

And see, that's what creates what I think is the most painful kind of infidelity because we're married, there's a familiarity, we've fallen into certain routines. You know, you do often with really good intentions. Like I think people unintentionally ruin their own sex lives all the time. All the time with really good intentions. And here's why. Ready? You meet, wild chemistry, attracted to each other. Oh my god, right? You even brush against each other in the thing and you feel it in your toes.

Because they're still kind of a mystery. There's things you haven't done and all of a sudden just their touch is like intoxicating. The scent of them on you is like, you know, it's the great... By the way, thank God that softens a bit because you'd never get your done. You'd never get a damn thing done. You'd just be distracted all the time, 100%. So it's good that like that softens and transforms into something different, right? But so, here's the thing. Now we start sleeping together.

You start to figure out what do they like. Yeah. You know, you throw this stuff at them that you think they'll like. Maybe something they told you that they like, or maybe something that you figure they might like, or maybe an article you read in Cosmo. So now I'm going to figure out what you like and you're going to figure out what I like. And then what are you going to do? Play the hits. Yeah. You play the hits.

Like you don't go see Bruce Springsteen to hear the ghost of Tom Joad. You want Born to Run. You want, you know, Thunder Road, like you want Born in the USA. Time is limited. Like, right? Like we got a tight schedule. Like we gotta move this thing. We got to land this plane. Come on. Like, and by the way, why wouldn't you? If I know what you like, you know what I like, let's do the things the other person likes. And that's why like early days of the relationship, oh my god, it's the greatest thing. Now, what did we just do?

We just made a routine. Just made a routine. And now we've created conditions where the other or the novel is even more interesting. And did we mean to screw up our sex life? No. It's the opposite. We actually really wanted to give the other person everything that makes them happy. But unintentionally, we created a routine. And so I think that's how people screw it up.

So what happens in the soulmate example? The soulmate example is all of a sudden this novelty is out there and social media has made it 50 times easier. Like if we were going to invent an infidelity generating machine, it would be Instagram or Facebook because all of a sudden I'm talking to people that I kind of have no business talking to.

And by the way, there are entry points that are totally innocent. Like I follow you on Facebook because our kids are on the same soccer team and now they post on the group about when the soccer is and now I see photos of you in a bikini because you went on vacation and now I have a totally innocent entry point. Like meaning I'm not saying like nefariously and, 'Oh, where'd you guys go? Where'd you stay? How was it?' 'Oh, we stayed in Tulum once. It was great. Did you like this?' And now what's going on? We're talking. We're talking and you're interested. I don't know everything about you.

Again, it's like the nanny example. Like the you, the me, and the we. When the we takes over, I know everything about you. I know. I even know what you're going to do next in bed. This person's a mystery. And so now, innocently, I've engaged with this person. And is it normal and human? I'm not excusing it. I'm explaining it. I think it's normal to find this other person fascinating and interesting.

And then a lot of people take the bait and they take it to the next level and they cross the line. They cross the line to flirtation. Then they cross the line to connection and meeting up and maybe, you know, like, okay, well, it's going to be one time and then it turns into... and then people come home and go, 'I've met my soulmate.' Because I love you and I love our life and I love the kids, but this person makes me feel something that I haven't felt. This excitement, this passion. Now, that's heartbreaking.

Like, because someone coming home and saying like, 'I found my person and it's not you.' Like, this is my favorite person. Like...

It's as bad as it gets. It's as bad as it gets, you know? And again, like, you know, Solzhenitsyn said if only there were evil people just out there insidiously doing evil. But the truth is like, you know, the line of good and evil runs through the human heart. Like we all have weakness in us. We all have beauty in us. We all have ugliness in us. We all have insecurity in us. We all have confidence in us.

When you spend time with people who cheat the way that I do, you really start to view them in a more sympathetic fashion because people don't do evil because they're evil. They mistake it for happiness. Like they think this is going to make them happy. Like they're as scared and lonely and insecure and frightened of the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to. Like they're just human.

Well, you know, the most common question when a man finds out his wife is cheating is, 'Did you [__] him?' Yes. And the most common question when a woman finds out her husband cheated is, 'Do you love her?' And that tells you, I think, everything you need to know. Yeah.

Like, so your answer is like, you know, what you just said a second ago when you said, 'Well, you know, I would have so to get past that and to have sympathy for this person I have a hard time with because of betrayal.' The solution is don't get there. Don't get to the place where infidelity would even be a thought.

See, people come to my office and they're like, 'Is cheating the number one cause of divorce?' And I always look at that and I go like, 'You're mistaking the symptom for the illness.' Like, happy people who love each other and are deeply connected in their relationship don't cheat. It doesn't even occur to them to cheat. Like, because why would they? I'm already fed. Why would I eat? Like I'm not hungry.

But here's the thing, and I'm not blaming the victim. I'm not blaming the victim, but it's everybody's fault or it's nobody's fault. I'm sorry. Like you have to accept the fact that it is easier and better. Like that's why the title of my first book was 'If You're in My Office, It's Already Too Late.' And I'm not saying that that's not fixable. Like gaining a tremendous amount of weight and now getting type two diabetes. I'm not saying, 'Well, it's too late. Roll up the books. You're done.' No, there's things you can do. But you know what would be a whole lot better? Stay healthy.

It's easier to maintain your weight than to gain a whole bunch of weight and then try to lose the weight and then gain the... like it's much easier and better to maintain. And that's what all my work and my book and my speaking is about. It's about, listen guys, we don't have to let this thing break. Create a marriage where infidelity is not likely to happen because there's a depth of connection.

But guess what? You both have to be part of that process. You can't just sit there and go, you know, if my spouse cheats, they're a terrible person. You know, that may or may not be true, but you have some responsibility in this relationship. You know, you don't owe your husband a [__]. You don't have to do... You also don't have to be married. Mhm.

You don't have to be married, but you've made a decision. You made a decision to get married. You've made a decision that I'm going to be this person's person, and I want to be their only person. Okay? So, guess what? You're right. You don't have to sleep with your husband. You don't owe him that. But he doesn't have to be your husband either. And you don't have to be his wife. We signed on for something.

We signed on for something that fails roughly 56% of the time. So, the odds are already against us. You can make the argument legally that it's reckless, that it's negligent, that it consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm because 56% of marriages catastrophically fail. They divorce.

What percentage stay together because they don't want to give away half their stuff or because they don't want to leave the kids? 10%. I'm being nice. 20. Now you've got something that fails 76% of the time. And we're going to get mad at ourselves that we're not great at it. Like come on. The odds are stacked against you.

So, you're going to have to make a conscious effort, as I'm sure you and Tom do, as any happily married person does, to like consciously, what are they doing? How do I check it? How do I help them see their blind spots? What am I doing? How do I check it? How do I see my blind spots? Like, that's a two-way thing you got to both do.

Or else, that soulmate concept, like that soulmate thing happens because you stopped being the person. You stopped being my favorite person and you were my favorite person because you were you. And when things changed, we didn't take the time to figure that out. And now we've gone far away from each other and we've created conditions where somebody can walk in and be the soulmate.

Like when he was 24.

Right?

The way you said it was very specific. You didn't go, you know, 'We're not having sex as often as we used to.' No, but just the fact that you're like, 'Oh, no, no.' Right. But that's...

But again, Lisa, what did you just do? What did you just do instinctually? Right. Like people, it's so funny because you're like, 'Oh, like my marriage just happened.' No. Like you're just doing the thing because what you just said when I said, 'Well, it wouldn't just...' you're like, 'No.' Oh my god, that would bring out something so defensive. Right. That's a skill. That's a skill.

Like, do you know how much time I spent in school learning how to do long division? Tons. Do you know how often I use it? Fully never, right? But this, no one teaches this. Like, what? You're going to get mad at yourself for the fact that nobody taught you this? Now, listen. Some people just figure it out. They figure it out through trial and error. They figure it out on their own. They're empathetic. They're sympathetic. They're whatever.

Because here's the thing. You guys never lost the plot. Never lost the plot. Like the plot of the story you decided to write together at the incredibly young age you started writing it. You never lost the plot.

Like I like to read. I read a lot. And I read a lot at bedtime. It like winds me down. It's better than doom scrolling. So I read and there always comes a time where I go, 'Wait, what's going on?' Like I'm tired and I don't remember what's going on in the book. And so I have to go back a few pages and then I go, 'Okay, that's where I stopped understanding. Let me put the bookmark in there.'

You have to do that in your relationship. Like, you have to go, 'Hey, we're losing the plot.' Like, we started this thing together because we want to be happy, not just we want to be married. What did you... 'We were married for 50 years. Yeah, we were miserable for 45 of them, but we did it. Like, we got to the finish line.' It's like running like the 50-mile ultramarathon. Like, I get it, but like, okay, congratulations. Like, that's crazy that you did that.

Because I have to tell you something. Like, I think the most hurtful, marriage-antagonistic thing you can do or say, the cruelest thing you can say to your spouse is not words. It's this. It's... It's just that sound of like...

Yeah. Right. Like because you know the opposite of love isn't hate. The opposite of love is indifference. Like indifference is the worst thing. Indifference is like what you're... it means nothing to me. I don't even notice you anymore.

Well, because hate is a passionate emotion. I still have skin in the game if I hate you. Like, you still have an emotional tie to me. Like the idea that like, 'I hate you.' Like, you're still having real estate in my brain. If my answer is, 'I don't think about you at all.' Yes.

And by the way, like what's really to tie it back to the infidelity conversation, I've heard a lot of men in defense of the infidelity, right? If they get caught cheating and they say, 'This is a mistake. It meant nothing. It meant nothing. This person meant nothing to me.' And I think they think that's going to help.

Yes. Like, 'I don't love her. She meant nothing to me.' And having represented women who've heard someone say that, the response is, 'So you blew up our life and our marriage and put everything of my love for you at risk for nothing.' For nothing, for something that meant nothing to you.

Men.

Because women don't, I don't think women cheat that way as much. Like I think when women cheat, it's like a professional hit a lot of the time. Like they really, they go about covering their tracks. It's also a lot of times in my experience with women, and again I hate to make overgeneralizations, but you know you've invited that part of the conversation I have. So I'm going to do it.

I'm going to say it that. That's why I'm not afraid to say it. And again this is just my observation. I'm not a psychologist. I sit in a room with men, with women. I've watched hundreds now of people cheat. I've listened to them. It's my job to defend them. So, I have to get to know what was going on in their brain. So, like I just don't shoot the messenger. Like, I'm not saying it should be this way. I don't live in the should. I live in the world, right? Like, I know how the world should be. If it was perfect, cool. I don't live in that world. I live in the real world where people are flawed and make mistakes and we step on the rake all the time, you know?

So I think fundamentally people just, they're trying to find happiness and they screw it up. Women very often in my experience, cheating is like the final nail in the coffin. It's the like I had to prove to myself that this was really over or I was so angry and disconnected from my spouse that this was like a reaction formation to that.

Like it's very rarely like, yeah, I just, you know, I just couldn't resist that penis. Like it's rarely that. And part of that I think it's not too hard to figure out. Like women have always been the gatekeepers of sex. Like you and I go out right now into the town. Which of us can get laid first? Guarantee it's you. Guarantee it's you. You're very famous.

Oh, there's lots of women love to talk to me and there's lots of women that would like and maybe with some effort I could get. But I'm telling you, you walk into a room and go, 'I'd like some penis.' There's going to be at least a bunch. Okay, I'm in. Like, it's going to happen. It's going to happen.

Like, it's why I've actually said like the idea of a hall pass, a celebrity hall pass, is a terrible bet for men. Yeah. Oh, terrible bet for men. Because think about it. Like, all right. I'm semi-famous. Okay. Semi-famous. Like D-list. Okay.

A woman comes up to me and goes, 'Listen, my husband and I have an arrangement that I'm allowed to sleep with you. Do you want to just real quick run into the bathroom at the Delta Lounge?' And there's a chance that I'm like, 'All right.' You know, like what the hell? Like that's any man, there's a chance, right?

If I roll up to Sabrina Carpenter and I go, 'Excuse me, Sabrina. Just want to let you know of an opportunity. My wife and I have an arrangement where we have agreed that I'm allowed to have sex with you.' Do you think she's going to go, 'Really? Oh my god, let's go do that.' Like there's not a chance in the world. So women have always been a bit of gatekeepers of sex.

And I think part of it is that women are just inundated with sexual attention all the time. Like go on Instagram and look at a woman's DMs versus most men's DMs. Go on dating apps. There's been tons of studies about this about how many more opportunities women have. So women have been gatekeepers of sex for a really long time. So, it's not as surprising if something's thrown at you constantly as an opportunity, you're not going to be as like scintillated by it, you know?

Whereas for men, when we have an opportunity, very often, it's like, ooh, oh my god, this person wants to sleep with me and my wife very often can't stand me and kind of makes me feel unattractive and uninteresting. And women, when they cheat, in my experience, it's that something fundamentally is broken in this relationship. And it's like a last Hail Mary pass of like maybe I'll feel fulfilled if I have this other thing.

But very often what it is is I think I'm going to have this like, all right, you know what? Maybe I'll feel alive again. Like I'll go have this thing and then I won't blow up my life. And then they do it and they realize like, oh yeah, this is over. Like this relationship's over. Like I wouldn't have done this if I was invested in this relationship.

Yeah. The big mistake is sometimes like the 'I was in Vegas, I was drunk and I hooked up with this person' or 'I was in... Right. It was nothing but it was just dumb.' It's the 'Oh my god, I can't believe I did this. I wish I could undo it.' It means it's the opposite of...

It's the opposite of like, I've met the person and it turns out they're my person and you're not. It's the, oh my god, I can't believe what I did. It was so wrong of me to do. I'm so ashamed that I did it. That's the one that most people can move through.

The problem is we have not created a world where people are allowed to talk about that.

Like it's not popular to say my husband cheated and I took him back. Like that is a suffer in silence situation. For a man to say, 'My wife cheated and I took her back.' Like Beyonce would have been a hell of a lot more popular if she'd kicked Jay-Z's ass to the curb. She did the harder thing. She could have done the easy thing where everyone would have been like, 'You go, girl.' Like, they would have been girl bossing right into the sun. They would have been real into it. But instead, and the problem is she kind of had to suffer in silence about it because you say that out loud and everybody pillories you.

Everybody beats you up. Women do not like a woman who forgives a cheater.

You're a wuss. How dare... What kind of man are you? Do you have like the little chair that you sit? Like that's crazy. Yeah. But meanwhile, it really could be they made a really stupid mistake. Are they defined by that mistake? Again, I'm not saying people should be just given a pass like it's nothing. But look, if I define your quality as a spouse by your worst moment as a... I guarantee in 24 years being married to Tom, there's some moment where you did not show up for him. You screwed up. You got it dead wrong.

If I say you are defined by that moment, I am being so unfair to you. Similarly, there is some moment where you were just gold star, man. Like he, you knew just what he needed. It wasn't easy. You gave it to him perfectly at the right time. You were the perfect spouse in that moment.

If I define you as a spouse in that moment, I'm giving you far too much credit. I like...