James Sexton’s Struggle With Faith | #046 | Unlearned Wisdom by @johnnychanglive

Let me check my ID. Those are separate questions. So those are those are easier. One of them is easier than the other. I'm James Ston. Uh who am I? I'm a divorce lawyer from New York City that somehow everybody knows. Uh, and I suddenly became uh, America's divorce lawyer. Uh, why am I here? That could be a really long question depending on how you want me to answer it. And when it's asked by a Christian, I'm always a little more nervous [laughter] because my answer would have been, why am I here? I'm here to talk on a podcast. But they were like, no, you're here to glorify the Lord. So, I I don't really want to [laughter] I don't know which which if we were speaking existentially or if we were speaking, but I'm I'm here to uh to sit down with my fellow uh Softwight Underbelly alumnist and uh and have a probably an overdue conversation together. We got a lot of overlap of the things that we think about and talk about and uh yeah, I'm I'm just thrilled to be here. So, thanks for having me.

You know, it was funny. I was I was a fan of Soft Wet Underbelly for a really long time before I ever appeared on it. And I I never imagined I would appear on it. I mean, and and when I say I was a fan, like I wasn't just somebody who would click on it when I'd see an interesting interview. I was a subscriber. Like I paid the whatever 10 bucks a month for the, you know, all access. You paid legit. Like, yeah, I put that credit card down.

It's a good question. And I mean I for me I felt like it was it was an exercise in radical empathy. Like I I felt like it it put me in the right headspace to watch those videos because living in New York City it's really easy to get very jaded. Like New York is a place where you're just surrounded with people and and feeling completely alone a lot of the time and you develop this callous because there's just people laying on the streets like addicts and there's just it's so easy to become just indifferent, you know, and I like to to think about things that are important and and when I um when I saw the channel the first time, I remember watching it and thinking, you know, I'm so fortunate like I really should more often think about for because you watch these episodes of people with like severe substance use disorder, people, you know, who and now you're learning about their background and how they were abused as a child or how they were victims, you know, of of some kind of of or multiple kinds of trauma and you start to go, you know what, there but for the grace of God go I like I, you know, I am I am a few traumas from having gone a completely different path.

100%. And so I felt like the channel's really good for that and it was good for me because it would remind me that, you know, this is this is who somebody who I could just as easily be.

Well, what's funny, you know, I've been a practicing divorce lawyer for 27 years now. And for the first 20 years of my career, actually the first 10 years of my career just represented what I would call civilians, like regular people, just, you know, W2 wage earners, you know, a cop and a teacher. They got a house, couple of kids, 401k. It was kind of straightforward. But I developed a reputation pretty quickly as being a skilled trial lawyer. And you know, when you're a good trial lawyer, you you start to move up in the direction. And I started representing higher and higher net worth people. For a while, it was like, okay, my client's worth a million bucks. That's a lot of money. And it was, okay, my client's worth 100 million bucks. That's a lot of money. And now, you know, one of my clients is worth eight billion dollars. you know, I started representing celebrities, actors, athletes, um you know, a lot of professional athletes, a lot of uh uh musicians, you know, different different high net worth professions. But because I'm in New York City, a lot of my clients, you would they're in finance, so you would never know them, you know, like the Golden Globes is happening, you know, right around now. And uh everybody knows the people walking on that red carpet, but like one of my clients could buy most of them.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. I wish, you know, it's so funny because I wish sometimes I could talk about my clients with specificity, but obviously they're, you know, their their confidentiality. [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. I Every once in a while the press will leak something of of of a case I'm working on and I'm like, "Oh, good. Now I can talk about it." [laughter] Somebody else blew up their spot, you know. Yeah. So, I I um I really liked the channel and I was a fan of it and I thought, you know, this is a really useful thing. And one day my assistant comes in and she goes, "Yeah, there's a guy on the phone named Mark. He says he's from like Soft White Bellies or something." [laughter] She looked at me like, "Is it a restaurant?" You know, and I I'll tell you the truth, my first thought was, "Wow, like did my credit card get declined? Like [laughter] that's odd, you know, like some maybe I change cards. It gets hacked all the time." [laughter] And uh and so I picked up and I recognized the voice. I'd never seen Mark before, but I just heard the voice.

Yeah. And he's like, you know, he introduced, he's like, "Hi, I'm Mark from from Software, whatever." I said, "Oh, yeah." I I said, "What's going on?" I said, "You know, I'm a subscriber." And he goes, "Oh, really? Oh, that's cool. Thanks." You know, and I was like, "What is this about?" And he was like, "Oh, I I I really like your stuff and I I'd like you to be on the show."

So, in in 2018, I wrote a book. I wrote a book called um If You're in My Office, It's Already Too Late: A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together. Jeez. And it's a it's a book about it's a Yeah. It's a book about, you know, what you can learn about keeping things together by watching how they fall apart. Like I I I've had You want to talk about unlearned wisdom? Like I I've unintentionally developed this like wisdom of what makes Because here's the thing like, you know, it's hard to define intelligence, but you could spot stupid a mile away, [laughter] you know? So I I feel sort of like you saw him and I feel I feel like it's hard to define a really good romantic relationship or a good marriage, but you boy, you see a bad one and you're like that was bad.

Yeah. So So having spent so much time with marriages that just completely fell apart catastrophically and ended up in divorce, I feel like I've I've learned a lot about how things fall apart. Like if you wanted to learn about keeping your car in good condition, you wouldn't talk to like a new car dealer. Sure. You talk to a mechanic because they've seen how it breaks down and they would tell you, "Oh, here's all the friction points where your your car is going to break down." So that's, you know, why I wrote the book and then like anytime you write a book, they give you a publicist and they set up appearances. So I did Steve Harvey Show, Rachel Ray, like a bunch of those kinds of shows. But, you know, I have a full-time job as a trial lawyer. I was not interested in becoming famous or well-known. I was kind of the people who needed to know who I was knew who I was and that was it.

And then, you know, Mark reached out. I guess he'd seen an interview and read read my book. And this is only about two years ago. And he uh he called and said, you know, I'd love to have you on the channel. And I said, you know, I'm not a fentanyl addicted prostitute, right? like [laughter] I don't know what you've heard, but that's you know I'm I'm I'm not [laughter] you know and he said no I'm trying to do some other things. I'm trying to talk to some other other people that are interesting and have a a different kind of life. He's like and I think that from reading your book and your interviews plus Mark's divorced and and he kind of you know knows what that experience is like.

So what was funny is you know I had a very traditional conservative profession that I'm in. like I'm still 5 days a week in court, you know. And so I uh he was recording at the W Hotel in Times Square and he said, "Okay, here's the time to come over. Just come on over." And so I I decided to walk because it's not too far from my my apartment and my uh my office, which is like I'm very spoiled in New York City. I've got my apartment, my office, my gym, and where I train Brazilian jiu-jitsu all within like two blocks. So I I never have to go very far. M. And so I was like, "Oh, I'll walk to Times Square to go to this hotel." So I I'm walking that way and it was like August and it was really hot. It was like 100° in New York City. So I took off my suit jacket. I rolled up my sleeves. I undid my collar a little bit. And when I went in, you know, you know, you sit down and you kind of don't feel like you're being recorded. Like it just he just started talking to me. Yeah. And I I'm talking to him, which by the way is why the opening sentences of my first interview are just so wildly embarrassing,

because he said, you know, like he was like, "Oh, yeah, I'm divorced." He's like, you know, like, you know, when I first got divorced, I was dating a lot and I just started talking about Yeah, me too. But it's like just two dudes talking, right? And that's where we started the because I don't realize, oh, we're recording already. Um, [snorts] but it was cool because it was real, you know, and um, we finished it and he said to me that was one of the best interviews I've ever done.

I thought I bet he says this to everybody, you know. And then he texted me later in the day and he said, um, you know, really it was great. Like I think so I thought, "Oh, that's nice. He's polite, you know, because I'll meet someone. I'll tell it was nice to meet you." Whatever.

About a week later, he texts me again. and he says, "Look, I'm just like re-watching this and I'm about to publish it. It's one of the best interviews I've ever done. It's going to get 4 million views. Guarantee it." So, I like like, "Okay." Yeah. They put it up. It hit like a million and a half in 24 hours. I think now it's at like 9 million, something like that. Some crazy number. Some ridiculous number. And um yeah, I mean the rest was absolute crazy history because some big people saw it like you know I I I was I got in this so it was about a week after Software Underbelly interview went up and millions of people had watched it and all of a sudden a few people would say like weren't you just on Softwight Underbelly you know and that was really weird because it was my first time anybody just knew who I was you know

and it was a little like odd

and then I was on the subway going from Manhattan to Queens because I had a trial in Queens and I listen to podcasts when I'm on the subway. So I was listening to Lex Freriedman talk to Andrew Huberman as a guest. And then I got out of the subway station and I looked at my phone and I had a message that said, "Hi, my name is Lex Freiedman. I have a podcast. I'd like you to come to Austin to be on it."

And I was like, "This feels very I was just listening to that like [laughter] what is this? like am I impunked to what happened? Like this is and uh I text back and said, "Yeah, thank you." You know, sure. I'd be happy to do. He's like, "Great. Can you like get here for this week?" And I was like, "Uh, no. I'm a full-time lawyer, but I can set something up the next week or two." And the next thing I know, I was in Austin recording with Lex. We talked for four and a half hours with no bathroom break. And, [laughter] you know, probably could have done four more and had a great time. And I said to him after like, "How did you how did you come to know who I was? Do you watch Softwite Underbelly?" And he said, "No." He said, "Um, Elon Musk, who he's very close friends with, and Andrew Huberman, who he's also very close friends with, both separately sent me your interview and said, "You should get this guy on your podcast."

And he said, "I hadn't watched it, but I thought, well, if Elon and Andrew both like this guy, I bet he'd be a good guest." So that's when I emailed you or texted you and uh I thought that was really funny. And he said, "But since then, you know, I've listened to your book on audiobook and I watched the interview and I agreed like you're super interesting." So we had a great interview. It went really well. But it was weird cuz like, you know, in the podcast world, you know, there's tears to some degree.

I went from never having been on a podcast.

A podcast. Like I I was looking at the top 10 podcasts uh in the United States for 2025 and I've done seven of them.

Cuz Huberman Lab, J Shetty, Diary of a CEO I did twice. Um I'm doing Mel Robbins in a week or two. I just booked her. You know, like all Huberman Lab, uh Lex Freedman, all flagrant, you know, all of these I've done.

Now Unlearned Wisdom. Yeah, exactly. Well, that was the one I was aspiring to. You know, you guys had a very tough screening process. You were like, "You've not been on Joe Rogan. I don't know that we can have you." And I said, "Please." And then you agreed to take the money as I offered. Yeah. I paid the bribe. I paid the big and it's fine. It feels [laughter] good. And I feel like you guys should have counsel present anyway to be honest. I don't know that you should do this podcast without a lawyer. It also I'm also a lawyer. It sounded like a good Yeah, but you don't dress like one. But I feel like, you know, it's a good start to a joke, too. You know what I mean? like a like a Christian a lawy divorce lawyer like it really like I don't know where it goes but um yeah so so that was the that was the soft white underbelly background and that was sort of the celebrity background and uh since then it has blown up.

I I have you know hundreds of millions of views from across all these various platforms. My book sales for a book that I wrote in 2018 it's just went into its fourth printing. So, wow. I'm finishing my next book now and uh it should come out sometime in in 2026 or early 2027.

uh so so the original book was um if you're in my office, it's already too late, a divorce lawyer's guide to staying together. It did really well, but they my publisher seemed to believe that the word divorce being in the title made people think it was a book about divorce, which it really isn't. It's about what you can learn from divorce about love. So when they published it as soft cover, they published it as how to stay in love, practical wisdom from an unlikely source. And that was I think the thing that it needed because it, you know, it blew up then and now it's in its fourth printing, but it's really the same book as the first book, which was the hard cover. Um, it's been published in the UK, translated into Mandarin, Bulgarian, Polish. It's being can read it now. Well, they told me that it's in Mandarin. I mean, they gave me a copy and I was like, I'm trusting you that this is [laughter] my book. I don't actually read it. This could be like a totally different book. But, uh, yeah. So, it's it's um it's been a really cool journey and now I've sort of unintentionally become something of a celebrity. Like I walk down the street in the city and people come up and say, you know, you're that divorce lawyer. I love your Tik Toks or I love you or you know and and they take a picture with me and um it's pretty crazy. I mean it's a pretty crazy thing. I'm sure you've had a similar experience like you go from kind of relative obscurity to people coming up to you and you know just like like this is our first time meeting but I feel like I've spent time with you like cuz I listened to you talk about you you know and there is something very gratifying like I represent a lot of actors and you know some of them like I've watched a show that they were on so I've spent hours with them and now they're in my office and I'm going to be their divorce lawyer. And I realize I've spent hours with them, but I don't know them at all. Like I they were reading lines off a page that somebody else wrote. So like in their show they were on they're a badass and they're like a violent person. And then [clears throat] in real life they're like soft as Wonderbread or the nicest person, [laughter] you know? So and it's or or vice versa. Like on on I've had clients that you know on a show they play the nicest guy and I find myself thinking, "Oh, they're this nice." And then you you're like, "Oh my god, he's the worst person I've ever met."

Super scary life.

The thing is he doesn't look like a minister. You know what [laughter] I mean? He does not look like So you kind of go as advertised, you know?

Yeah, I take them off after the interview. [laughter] No. Um, they're skulls, by the way. Like, if you show them a little bit, you you're going to actually like the I've never really talked about the backstory of my tattoos, so it's a good You have an exclusive here. Um, yeah, my tattoos are all much older than you guys. Um, like my tattoos are all I got them when I was in my late teens, early 20s, and I'm 53. So, um, all of them were some symbolic thing I wanted to remember. Most of them are religious themed. I was raised extremely Catholic in a very dogmatic Roman Catholic home. I went to church, you know, almost every day. I was an altar server. Um I I had uh tremendously good experiences only in the church. Like I I you know, I know that the Catholic Church there have been a lot of things that people had bad experiences. I didn't I I had really positive experiences in the church. I came to a place where that no longer fit my understanding or faith.

Well, I had experience, you know, I so religion for me is amazing at teaching you what to think about and what questions you should ask. Where it gets tricky is when it starts to tell you the answer because I I am of the belief and and you know we we probably have differing perspectives on this [snorts] that God is is the name that we give to a blanket that we put over a mystery to give it shape. Like you refer to to God as he Mhm. [clears throat] Like he wants this of us and he thinks we're But I I imagine we all agree God doesn't have a penis. [laughter] Like, you know, we're laughing, but like it's true. Like like we I say someone he I mean they're a man. Like I And what do I mean by they're a man? They they have a penis, right? So I don't believe God has a penis. You know, if he did, okay, like is it like a big one? Is it average? [laughter] Like how does it work? Like definitely swinging. But how I would like to think that, but then there's a part of me it's like I don't know. Maybe he would be like modest and average and [laughter] he he gave it to himself and it would be kind of like if he was like I'm going to give myself a real monster. Like that feels like wow. Give me give him a monster. Give him a small one. That's not fair. That's not cool. You're an omnipotent creator deity. Throw me a bone. What are you doing? You know, like [laughter] but I feel like, you know, so so we know that that this is a metaphor. Like we know that that God isn't a he, but we use the word he because God's the father, right? So when Jesus says, you know, God is your heavenly father, now we say he cuz a father's a he. But you know, we know that that wasn't what he meant. He didn't mean God, you know, like conceived you and God has a penis. He meant God is like a good father who loves you, protects you, holds you to a standard. Like this to me is a beautiful metaphor. And so much of what Jesus says in the gospels is metaphors, beautiful metaphors and stories to inspire us. So for me the journey of faith was that I found myself just not believing uh the more that I read the Bible and studied different translations of the Bible whether it was the New International Version or the Renew Revised Standard Version or the King James or and the more that I studied other religious texts you know the Dhamapata the Bhagavad Gita the Dao Deq Ching the more that I realized that all of these things are just a way to try to explain something that's incredibly like if you look at the Dao Ching and the Bible, the opening sentence of both of them written thousands of years apart in totally different cultures is almost exactly the same. Like the opening line of the Dao Degen is the Dao that can be named is not the eternal Dao. And the opening line of the gospel is you know in the beginning there was the word and the word was of God and the word was God which is like it's meant to be a contradiction like the word was of God and the word was God. So it's just like the Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the eternal Dao. So I felt like, oh, this is something saying to us, hey, there's a thing that we won't need to talk about, but by putting it into words, you're going to screw it up. So, we're just going to try to use words to explain what it is, but the words will fail. Like, because this is a mystery that you can't understand. as a as a I came to a place in my own faith where I felt that claiming I could understand the nature of God, an omnipotent creator deity that created the known and unknown universe infinite was a was a form of hubris like it would be like saying can you explain quantum physics to an ant right [laughter] no because it's an ant like I'm an ant not even in to God so for me to say I understand the nature of God it with certainty feels very uncomfortable and inauthentic because I think there's again people who have strong religious faith like I have many Christian friends and they have a strong religious faith and when I say faith as someone who argues for a living I'm always thinking what would you accept as proof that what you're saying is not true right because proof denies faith like if you have proof of something, it's not faith. Like, oh yeah, I have proof of that. I know it's true. It's information. Like, you've proven something to me. I don't have to have faith in it.

So, you know, if I said to you, um, you know, this watch is a real Rolex. It's not a fake.

And if you said, Jim, that's a fake Rolex. And I said, okay, what would you accept as proof right that you're wrong? Well, I'd want to see the box and papers. I'd want a certified person to look at it. Okay, this is a good thing. Like, this is logic. This is reason, right? If I said, "What would you accept as proof that Jesus is not your personal Lord and Savior and that there is no path to the Father but through him?"

I hope if you're a man of faith that your answer would be nothing.

There's nothing you could tell me or show me that would take that belief from me.

Because that's faith.

And so for me, I stand in awe of people with faith because it's a beautiful thing to have.

It is. It is. And it's a tremendous comfort. Like my mother passed away about 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer. And she was Christian her whole life. And the peace and comfort [snorts] that she had in the last two years of her life while she was on hospice because of her faith was amazing. like she was ready to go home, like ready to return to the f like she and she believed that with all her heart and it gave her such beautiful great comfort.

But I don't believe that faking that is a good thing.

You know, and and and Jesus agrees with me in the gospel that like don't don't say this if you don't mean it. Like it's okay to question. It's okay to have doubt. Doubt is you know Jesus had doubt in the garden of Gethsemane. He had doubt like why why you really want me to do this like you sure like would that you take this cup from my hand you know like it really is like a beautiful thing but I think faith is something that you shouldn't fake like if you don't have it you don't have it so for me a lot of my tattoos were about my faith like there's the Pax Christi these are the six fruits of the Holy Spirit the skulls are are seven skulls each one representing one of the seven deadly sins so they're all seven of the deadly sins done graphically. So like envy, the eyes are empty because envy is is blindness to God's gifts. Um you know, wrath is is this is a like an anatomically correct skull with a bullet hole. Um pride uh is this one and it's an anatomically perfect skull but with the Lucifer seal on it because Lucifer's sin was the sin of pride. Um lust is my shoulder. It's the biggest one.

Um, so yeah, I mean all my tattoos sort of move from that that place of of you know my religious upbringing wanting to remember something about that. Across my abdomen I have the opening lines of Psalm 129 which is the prefundus clamp do which means like out of the depths I cry out to the Lord.

I believe in God. No, I very much believe in God. Yeah, I have tremendous faith in God. I I just don't I don't feel I can credibly say like I I believe in God. I believe that the gospel of Christ is to me the most beautiful personally the most beautiful and resonant expression of it. But I'm not sure if that's because it's true or if that's because that's the one I was raised on, Johnny. You know, and and I'm very um I'm what I will say is I am most moved by the gospel of Christ. Like I am most moved when I look at the story of Jesus when I read the gospels. I I find them the most beautiful expression of God and the understanding of God. But I I can't say that I believe that in the divinity of Jesus. I don't know that he was not a incredible spiritual teacher who came and was, you know, the son of God in the way that we're all sons and daughters of God. Mhm. And I wouldn't want to pretend that I do. So, I do very much believe in God. Um, I just don't know that I believe in the divinity of Christ and that some of the core doctrines of the Christian faith, I don't know that I can truly align myself with because I've spent so much time in thinking about and looking at scripture.

And looking at other religion scripture.

That I find it uh difficult to I have commitment issues, I guess. right? [laughter] You know, it's I I I any woman I've ever dated would tell you the same thing, you know. So, yeah, I I have a hard time being a one God man, you know, like a one one uh religious view man.

I do. Yeah, I do. I think that we it's it's really you say it really well because I think, you know, I I I've been in therapy a long time. I see value in being in therapy and one of the things my therapist often says to me is you're overintellectualizing something. So, like I'll be talking about something I'm feeling or something I went through and I'll say, "Well, you know, and I know that that's, you know, because that reminds me of my mom and she used to do this and and she's like, "Right, like you can pick this apart and figure out like but what you're saying is you're hurt."

Like why you're hurt and where that came from. Okay, we can spend a whole bunch and maybe you're more comfortable talking about how the math of it works, right? So, I think you're absolutely right. like I like you spent so much time digging into the well this gospel translates different than this and in this kind of Aramaic a virgin means a young woman whereas in the you know we've interpreted it to mean that you know Jesus was born with no sin and that she was a virgin like and I actually kind of like the idea that Mary wasn't a virgin and then in fact maybe she was having sex and wasn't married like that would fit with Jesus because Jesus was always hanging out with prostitutes and criminals and people that everybody hated and saying oh No, they're they're just like us. Like this is I'm here for these people. So I thought, oh, like if I was going to if go if I'm God and I'm going to send a messenger to like to give my message to the world, I'm going to have him born of adultery in a manger. I'm going to have him be like a total rebel, like a total, you know, no one would think this guy is going to be the guy. And that's part of the message. Like part of the message was he's not, you know, anything special. He was just a dude. He's a carpenter. He's 33 years old. And you know, he's kind of annoyed at his mom, you know. He's at the wedding, you know, in Kaa. And [laughter] she's like, "Boy, it'd be nice if there was some wine, you know, and he's like, Mhm." And she's like, "Yeah, you know, a lot of wine. We're out of wine. Isn't it [laughter] a shame?" And he's like, "Woman, what would you have me do?"

Sure.

Amen.

but I'm just not ready to say that. I'm not sure why. And I I have to tell you, I pray constantly,

to give me that faith. If that faith is meant for me, give it to me.

And and so I I know that if it will come, it will come. I'm not resistant to it. I'm open to it. I spend a lot of time in thought about the Christian gospel. I I spend a lot of time reading the gospel, and I I leave myself open to it. Um but I I haven't yet reached a place where I like I think you have to treat it like you treat marriage. You're never going to be ready, but don't do it until you're ready enough, like you're serious enough. Like, don't make that commitment, if you're not serious about that commitment because it's serious, you know?

Yeah. I what I struggle with and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on is, you know, you talk about having a relationship with Christ, right? And and the value of that and and part of every good relationship is talking, right?

So, you know, you talk to to to God.

And and you know, all of my Christian friends like make a point of of talking to God and talking to God with specific reference to Jesus. So, you know, they'll they'll they'll be saying, you know, heavenly father, you know, I want to, you know, help me with this and, you know, Lord, you know, I I ask you for this. And they're very calling by name.

Right. God and and calling by name Jesus. But obviously Jesus, you know, isn't and God aren't talking back anymore.

The way in scripture they used to, right? So they used to like the bush would start talking [laughter] or like the you know and so I would not you'll notice I didn't say that God isn't speaking to us like I I feel like we get spoken to all the time by things that happen around us but how do you identify that how does it for you not feel like a one-sided conversation?

it's right there. How interesting, right? Yeah. And I mean, maybe that is a really great entry point for someone like me who feels deeply connected to the idea and to the gospel, but feels like cuz I I I work my best ideas through while talking. Sure. like in conversation. So when I was like thinking about my my the book I'm working on, it was born of conversations where I would just be talking to people about love and marriage and what and it like sometimes you'll see me like close my eyes while I'm talking or like look up and it's that I'm like trying to form a thought that I haven't said before. Like I I'm like a comic in that I have certain things I know land. So if you've watched interviews with me, there's like material that I know hits. I know this one kills like that'll be my closer.

But a lot of times like I want to be having like this a very genuine conversation and it's things I don't have any material prepared for and you know other than saying hey we're going to have a free flowing discussion and you know I know your your faith background so knowing that hey this is a topic we can cover together and we both did soft white so I'm like oh we'll maybe talk about that. We didn't talk about what we're going to talk about or how we're going to talk about it. And I kind of love that because that's a way for this to happen organically and for it to flow the way it needs to flow. Like if you'd said, "Oh, the first 20 minutes we're going to talk about this." Like, would you have guessed when you're like, "Oh, we got a divorce lawyer coming over today and the first 30 minutes is going to be about his religious faith and about, you know, the study of the scripture and we'll have some quotes from the Dao Deq Ching in the first five minutes." [laughter] Like, we would not have thought that. But, you know, that's right here.

Yes.

And and you know, putting us in each other's orbit and that's the way that we're spoken to. And I if that's true, it's really beautiful. I want to believe it. Like there's so much I want to believe. Like and I think there are probably a lot of people like me that say I I want this. Like cuz your faith is a superpower, right? Like so I envy it. Like I I look at it and I go, "Oh, I I want to believe that. I want the comfort that comes with that. I want what I know I'll never have to not have so many questions in my head." Like I know even with faith you have questions in you because anyone who is smart is going to never stop having like you know Jesus cured my child's cancer right that God gave your kid.

Like so God gave your child cancer and then you prayed and impleaded his intervention and God saw fit to help with like that feels to me like right but why did he give the kid cancer to begin with? What would you say? I'm sure there's an answer. Yeah, I'm sure there's an answer. But it's an anthether that's based on faith, right? And I I want to have that faith. I want to say I want to be Jesus in Gethsemane, right? Like, why are you doing this to me, Dad? And then to go, oh, not my will, but yours.

No, I I don't think it's about fear. I think it's about Yeah. Yeah. No, I I I actually find the world much more terrifying if you don't believe.

I I like I want to believe because it's quite frightening to not believe. Sure. You know, I I think if none of this means anything of real value, like then I I I I don't really know, you know, like I I want to have faith.

Yeah.

Yeah.

sure

Like Carl Lent, you know, who I is an amazing pastor and I I call him a friend said to me, "Oh, if you're waiting for like the gospel to make sense."

You can be waiting like there's a huge amount that's just never going to make sense to you. You have to live in the mystery of it and have faith. And I I honor that. I respect that.

I kind of am curious of what what your response would be to the cancer thing. That was just my personal

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a question I think a lot of people have about why why does God allow

True.

You know that makes tremendous sense to me. And my feeling and my belief has always been that that evil, if we want to call it evil, is in a sense like even a fulcrum for God because it is only through, you know, dark that we see the difference between dark and light. And I don't know that I believe in the devil, right? I don't know that I, because I think to have faith in God, to have also faith in the devil, like they're two different pursuits. But if there was a devil, I think the devil's principal function, his goal would be to convince us that we're so bestial and awful that God couldn't possibly love us.

Because if the devil can convince me, because, you know, you share your story and we have a similar story in the sense that, you know, I had a terrible alcoholic father, you know, Cutty Sark in a coffee mug kind of an alcoholic, and I moved out at 17 because the chaos, and my mother was like your mother. She was just sort of powerless to this person and managing his alcoholism and trying to, so she really couldn't be there for us the way as children that we needed. So at 17 I was very much on my own, which is a very different thing than at 12. So I can't even imagine. But I think we probably both carry very similar scars in terms of, you know, you always for the rest of your life have control issues. You know, right, you have fear of abandonment. You feel like, okay, I can only rely upon myself, and this feels very heavy.

But I really believe that every time I've seen, and I represent all kinds of people. I mean, I represent the victim of domestic violence. I represent the perpetrator of domestic violence. I represent the person who's been cheated on. I represent the person who's doing the cheating. And what I will tell you is you spend enough time with each of these people, just like when you do prison ministry, I'm sure, you start to see that these are just people that somehow, and again, if you want to call it the devil, were convinced that they're just evil.

Like I gave myself in the moments of my life where I've been the worst version of myself, the most evil version of myself is when I lost sight of God's presence in me and when I believed that, oh, I'm awful. Like, I'm so awful, God couldn't love me. So, I might as well just do whatever I want. I might as well do what feels good. I might as well do what makes me feel powerful because God doesn't love me. Like, why would he? Like I'm awful. I have so much darkness in me. I have terrible thoughts. I'm selfish. I'm like you could fill a book with all the things even today now sitting here before you all the lust, the greed, the envy. Like I carry all of those things. I do all of those things. I try to at best hold them at bay.

Right. But we all have that darkness in us. And so I, but again I think the purpose of the devil would be to like make you just look at that and not look at the part of you that is divine, the part of you that is God. The part of you that is God's voice inside you, right? That's built in God's image. And that, you know, yes, we have greed in us, but we also have incredible compassion in us. And I have lust in me, but I also have, you know, compassion in me and a desire to love and be loved in me. So I, you know, I think we're just walking around with all those contradictions. And you know, I think that's a very challenging thing in this world to hold on to.

If you don't have what you just described. See the fact that you describe it as I talk to God the way I talk to me. But then I see in scripture that he's talking back. And see to me that's an interesting entry point that I've never really done. I've never really like, you know, prayed on something and then allowed myself to sort of let me just see where in the gospel this might speak to me and see if that's God's answer. I always try to look at it like God puts people in my path and that maybe they're his answer or they're his messenger because I do find there are times where I feel very close to God. I feel very because someone is in my path that gives me an opportunity to be Christian, to be compassionate, empathetic, forgiving, kind, selfless, to not, you know, to embody the virtues that Jesus embodied, you know, we're forgiving someone, you know, showing deep compassion to this person, showing deep empathy to a person. Is there ever a time where you're being this like vulnerable as you are and then someone shuts you down and how do you handle that? Like you know in the Christian community there's a lot of people who are like if you're not saying it my way or saying it my way like they just write you off or they kind of ch right and it's like have you ever experienced that and how do you do it?

But I like it doesn't bother me. I mean, partly because like I argue for a living, so I'm used to people disagreeing with me, but I also like it feels like the most wonderfully human thing. Like one of my favorite things in the gospel is, you know, I was raised Catholic and so when you're Catholic, it's unlike being a charismatic Christian. Like you go and there's we believe in one God, Jesus Christ, the only begotten of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. Like I can do the whole mass. Like I memorized the whole thing. I was an altar boy. I know the whole thing. And it's very formal. You stand at this time, you sit at this time. It's very formal and all the prayers are very formal. And I remember at a fairly young age like digging deeper into the gospel as a teenager like wanting to understand it and really out of the struggle of like I don't know that I believe this so let me like read it a little bit deeper.

And I remember reading because when you're a Catholic the Our Father, the Lord's Prayer, right? You say it like 50 times a day. Like every class there was Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be, and it's you say it like that. Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses. Forgive those who trespass against us. And it's like when you say like, you know, I pledge allegiance to the flag, you know, the words don't even mean anything anymore. And so, and I remember as a kid saying, "Why do we say this?" And them saying, "Oh, because the Bible tells us that this is how we should pray." And I remember the first time I read the actual part of the gospel.

And it was the most human thing I've ever seen because Jesus is born into this Jewish culture that has tremendous rigidity. And has formality. And you do this on this day and you say this way, it's a very Our Father in heaven, and that it's very that. And one of them says to Jesus in some substance, how should we pray? Like how should we pray? Like should we do it like these guys? Like should we, Father, like should we do that? And Jesus says no, when you pray, and again I'm paraphrasing, but he says don't be like the Pharisees, like don't put on this whole thing and like you have to say it a certain way, like just talk to God. Just say something like, you know, Our Father who's in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Like, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Like, give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses as we'll forgive those who trespass. Jesus was saying, you don't have to say any particular words in any particular order. Just talk to God. And what did we do? What do we have to say? And he was like, don't say like, say whatever you want. Say, Our Father who art in heaven. We're like, hold on, I'm writing this down. Our Father who art. And he's like, no, no, the point was you don't have to say it just like that. They're like, hold on, I'm writing down what you just said exactly. Our Father who art in heaven. So to me, like when someone says, "Oh, if you don't do it this way, you're doing it wrong." I go, "Oh, no. That's I don't think that's true." Like because I think Jesus was saying there's no exact way you have to do it. Like there's some things you have to feel and believe. There's some things you have to acknowledge, but you don't have to pray any particular way. You can just talk to God any time like he was your father and that's it.

I have two sons. I have to tell you. If Jesus is saying God is like a good father, I think I have what you and I maybe didn't have. I have a good father. Like I have a father who like I don't, I'm not perfect at it. I step on the rake sometimes, but my sons are 26 and 28 and I think I've done a good job. I've done the best I could. And I didn't always have the best role models for it. So I was making up some of it as I went along. But what I will say is like if my sons came to me and said, "I'm so mad at you. I'm so upset at you." I wouldn't be mad at that. I'd be like, well, let's talk about that. Why are you mad? Like, what are you feeling right now? Like, what does it come from? Is it something I, are you misunderstanding something I did or said? Or maybe you're not actually mad at me. It just feels like you're mad at me, but really you're mad at yourself. Like, so I'm very very comfortable with, I mean, and by the way, I think there's so much in the scripture of Jesus having doubt. Like I keep talking about Gethsemane, but like even on the cross like, you know, like right, like, you know, Eloí, Eloí, lama sabachthani, right? Like, my God, my God, why have you abandoned me, right? Like Jesus was saying, why have you abandoned me? Why have you left me? Like the dereliction, like what a... And to again, to some people that's like, oh well that must have not happened or that must be a mistranslation. And to me like that actually makes it much more beautiful.

Because God, like Jesus was fully human and in that moment was terrified and in pain and dying and said, why are you doing, like if you love me, why would you do this to me? That is so beautiful to me. And then because he then follows it with, you know, it is accomplished, right? It is finished. You know, like Father, into your hands I commend my spirit, like which to me is, oh, okay, so that's the journey. Like, so maybe I'm in like, that's my era I'm in right now. I'm in my like, what are you doing, man? Like, why? Why? What is this? What is this? I hope it's followed by the, you know, it's finished. It's accomplished. You know, like I hope it's followed by that. But, you know, I don't think that... I think if you're mad at God, you should say it. I think if you believe in God, you should say it proudly, loudly. If you have doubt, you should say it. I think you should say it.

Like, so that's why I'm not afraid to say it. And I'm not afraid to like say, "Oh, and I'm not only could I be wrong, I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Please, I hope I'm wrong." Like, God, if you're listening, show me. Show me I'm wrong. Like, I want to be wrong.

That's a nice way of saying I'm weird, but I appreciate that.

Well, that's why when you said like, so you don't believe in God, I was like, whoa, it's the opposite. Like, it's the opposite. I absolutely believe in God and God also I feel God in my heart and I feel something very special in Jesus. But again, I don't know if that's just because that's the lens that was drilled into my head every day from the day I was born until I was in my late teens or if it's because that's the truth. Like if you talk to someone who was raised Muslim and every day was taught the prophet Muhammad and was taught like to them that is like what that resonates in their heart, you know.

Well, Mr. Johnny, what would you say for someone if they're like, "Yo, like how do you..." Yeah, exactly. Like there's all these religions. They kind of say the same thing. How do you know that Christianity out of all of them is the right religion?

Better be good now cuz I got a bad future. So, let's...

Yeah. And I think what you're talking about, too, is, you know, when you were exposed to this message and to this messenger in the form of the pastor. That's the, like that spoke to your heart, like it filled you. And it filled you in a way that perhaps, you know, Islam didn't or other approaches to life, again, like whether even hedonism, like hedonism is an approach, that YOLO lifestyle, that's an approach to life. Does it, how does it make you feel, right? And so if what filled the emptiness was connecting to Christ, then I understand why you would go, oh, okay, like I feel a fullness in me that I didn't before. The thing I've been searching for, I found. Like, and when you found it, you found it, right? Like, when you're full, you stop eating. Like, okay, so I found it. I'm full. I'm not hungry for this anymore. I was starving. Like, you were starving for some connection, and you didn't know what it's to. So, you're like, "Oh, it'll be to women. It'll be to sex. It'll be to drugs. It'll be to money. It'll be to success. My own ego."

We, I have been there. I'm still there in some ways, right? Like, how do you not be there sometimes? Like I see it in myself now. Like now I'm recognized when I'm on the street. I walk down the street and people say to me like, "Oh man, I love you. You're so great. You're so great." And I find myself, I believe them. Like I believe I'm so great. Cuz I'm hearing it 10 times a day now. You know, and then there's times where I'll be walking down the street and for some strange reason like no one says anything to me that day. And I go, "Oh, what is it? Am I walking too fast? Like should I, did you guys want to, America's divorce lawyer James? Anybody, anybody want to praise me? Anybody around?" And then there's some voice in the back of my head that goes like, "Oh, dude, you really, we're doing this now? Like you're going to chase that dragon? Like you now you need that. Now you need that. Now you're going to, if you don't get this praise that you didn't have for 51 years of your life, that now if you don't get that praise, you're going to feel empty. You're going to feel strange. You're going to feel insecure. You're going to question your value because you're not getting this external praise from strangers telling you that you're brilliant. Like that's a dangerous thing. It's a dangerous thing. But again, like I try to be very honest with myself.

And I try in these, every conversation I have to just be very honest about what I'm feeling and thinking and observing. And I actually think that's why people find me interesting because we live in a world and in a moment where everyone is just so fake. Everyone is just so performative and they're afraid to say they're afraid. They're afraid to say they're confused. They're afraid to say, "Yeah, I already think I'm bigger than I really am." Like, and so I, like I don't need more, like I don't need more pats on the back or fans. I already think I'm bigger than I am. Like, I'm already drunk on my own importance in a world of 8 billion people. Like, 8 billion people who are as lost and flawed as me and as beautiful and perfect as me, right? Like where I, and that's again why to me the Christian gospel is, you know, the most beautiful. It's the one that fills my heart. It's the one that chokes me up. Like when I talk about Jesus, I'm sure you can see when I talk about Jesus, sometimes my eyes swell up. To me, that's the most powerful message. It's more powerful than anything I read on a page. It's more powerful that something in me feels overwhelmed when I talk about this. So, I think to myself, maybe that's God. Like, maybe God is making me feel something cuz my brain's so busy that he's like, "Oh, let's skip that." And I'm just going to go right to your heart and make you get choked up every time you think about this. And maybe that's the way that God talks to me. I don't know. I'm waiting to see. I hope so.