Why Relationships Die & Which Ethnicity is WORST in Divorce | The Divorce Expert

Why is it rude to say to someone, 'You guys are getting along, you're in love, you're having fun. Why do you want to get the government involved?' What most people call love today was something that was invented in the '50s to sell shampoo. Wow. All three of you have a prenup. The government wrote it. You think that's a good idea? You ever been to the DMV? You ever walk into the DMV and go, 'These people should be in charge of everything.' You are pro-marriage. You're just anti-marriage without a prenup. People want to do dumb [__]. Jump on a plane. You want to do some dumb [__]? Do some dumb [__]. Just admit you're doing some dumb [__]. What is your craziest divorce that you... Well, I shouldn't say this in public, but I will. Her husband ran her over three times and stabbed her 16 times. Who's the worst in divorce, culturally, ethnically, racially? Look, sometimes stereotypes are a real time saver. Let's just call that out. Like, Russian women, in my experience professionally, they get ice cold. When you're married to a Russian woman, there's nothing she won't do for you. And when you're divorcing a Russian woman, there is nothing she won't do to you. Like, she will [__] your [__] right up. Is there anything that you've learned through all these divorces about what makes marriages successful? I've learned a lot by being a divorce lawyer about what keeps people together. What I've learned, I would say more than anything else is just pay attention. People get divorced the same way they go bankrupt. Very slowly and then all at once.

Actually stand still anywhere in New York City because people without someone coming up going, 'You're that divorce lawyer.' You know, the problem is when you do, like if you're going to be known for a viral clip, don't be wearing the same outfit you wear every day. I don't even... because there's no way to... It's like your mustache. Like if you shave that, you could probably get away with it for a few days. Yeah, you could blend right in. But maybe that's what I'm playing without. That's what you got to do. You want to take a week or two off and get that right out. That's free advice. Free new Celino and Barnes for us New Yorkers. Wow. Wow. Am I both Celino and Barnes?

The fuck out of myself. Yeah. Um, you know, it's that's a deep cut New York reference. I just want to let you know these were like iconic New York lawyers and it was like one of the first like call lines for law advice, right? Like 1-800-888... Did that 1-800-888? There was a lot of eight and then they had the most brutal breakup like like epic level breakup and then then what's it you which is like you know here you go like you you finish this brutal hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees trying to get away from each other and then one of you dies. That's pretty lucky for another guy. He was like, fuck, I could have saved some counsel.

Surprising number of people.

I've never had one where someone was killed. I did have a client who her husband or or arranged husband, now ex-husband, um, ran her over three times and stabbed her 16 times.

During the divorce, and she survived.

She got 100%. She also had to get like another kidney and some other things. So she lost out that on the black.

Yeah. She did all right.

I wasn't like the lookout if that's what you like. I was there she is.

A lot. Yeah. I I mean I think you know when you're dealing with like high net worth and ultra high net worth divorces.

So high net worth is generally defined as a divorce where the estate is more than $10 million. Ultra high net worth is over $100 million. So that's it's a different level in some ways because you're fighting over bigger numbers. It's harder to track the values. A lot of the stuff that people do for like wealth preservation and tax avoidance. Like super super rich people don't own anything. They have trusts that own LLCs that are beneficiaries of the great grandchildren that haven't been born yet own everything and they just borrow it from like so that's why they pay like less in taxes than a guy who works at Burger King. So it's unbelievable because they're not actually generating income and you only pay tax on income. I guess you can pay capital gains too but but not if you do it the right way. So, so what happens is these people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to accountants and tax attorneys to make sure they don't have to pay taxes, but they don't anticipate that when they get divorced, this is just going to blow up in your face because it makes it so complicated to figure out where is the money, what is marital, what is outside the scope of the marital estate, what can the judge get their hands on, what can't they get their hands on. So, it becomes a really, really tricky, messy thing.

I'm very blessed. I'm at the place in my career now where I have high net worth and ultra high net worth clients and you can have a smaller number of clients who you give a lot more personalized attention to because any anybody who's at like a certain level of net worth, they are used to being waited on and they're used to their professionals like they they've not romanticized a lawyer like they know lots of lawyers. So they look at lawyers like you'd look at like a plumber like you know there's a lot of people that do this. You work for me and you know they're used to so so you have to give them a certain level of attention but unlike a plumber like you do get to yell at them like you do and sometimes that's what they want.

Yeah. It's like there's few positions where you're subservient to the person you're hiring. Like a trainer is one of them. Like your trainer can yell at you, tell you you're being lazy, get your ass together, stop eating this. There's lawyer and then maybe like doctor.

People you should never lie to are your doctor and your lawyer because like everything you tell us, every single thing you tell us is protected by privilege and there's absolutely our only job is to protect you.

Okay. I mean I like I I don't pull any punches on it. Like I very much but what I what I usually will say to them just to kind of like take it to a place that they can understand is I'll say look I just want at the beginning of this relationship I want you to understand I represent people who've been victims of domestic violence. I represent perpetrators of domestic violence. I represent people who are by any objective standard amazing parents. And I represent people who just want to put the kids in the middle for leverage for child support purposes. And I am no one's moral compass. I'm a weapon. And a weapon in the hands of of of a hero, right, is going to protect people. And a weapon in the hands of the villain is going to cause chaos. But the weapon is kind of neutral, right?

Who? I can't I mean, obviously a lot of my clients, I can't disclose who they are except not in what they... Oh, I've represented people who are, you know, by any objective metric are are, you know, malignant narcissists. I mean, so unfortunately the traits that make...

People very successful, particularly in high finance, which is what New York is really like. My colleague Laura Waser is in LA. She represents like every celebrity you've ever seen. I represent a lot of people in finance who could buy those celebrities ten times over, but would walk past you on the street, you never knew who they were.

No, no presidents yet. Yeah, no presidents yet. They all seem to keep it together, right? And I got my fingers crossed. Who knows? Maybe real soon.

So first of all, yes, I'm a sensitive person. I don't think I could do this job well if I wasn't, because to do this job well, it's just like — I think it's like being a comic. I think you have to have a sensitivity. You have to be able to read what's going on with this audience and you have to know what's working, what's not, be able to shift, right? So it's the same exact thing. It's just my audience is a judge. So, and I'm really here — like our job is the same. We're here to manipulate people's emotional state. That's our job. Like your job is to manipulate people. You want them to laugh, relax, and enjoy. I want the other side to be scared. I want my client to feel safe. I want the judge to like my client and hate the other side. So I'm here just manipulating everybody's emotional state. And to do that well, I have to be very open, receptive, empathetic, and sensitive. The downside of that is, yeah, I'm sensitive. I'm empathetic. I feel a lot of it. I represent the client, but I also represent the system, and I don't always believe in the client, but I believe in the system.

I was talking about it on Mark's show some time ago when, you know, I represented a guy who was a pimp. Like literally a pimp. That was his job. Like he actually was — you know, he had other... he's in federal prison now for guns. But he was an atrocious human being. He was an abuser. And I was up against an adversary who was an unskilled attorney, and it was all this woman could afford. And I absolutely ran her over. And we walked out of court and the guy patted me on the back and he said, 'Man, one good lawyer is worth 20 stickup men.' And I just remember thinking like, I want to go home and just take a shower right now because that just feels dirty.

Of course. Of course.

I think you have to. I think you have to because look, what I'll tell you is the truth has a way of coming out sometimes despite my best efforts.

Well, that's what ended up happening with that guy is he ended up in federal prison. I mean, I think the truth has a way of coming out. I have to tell my clients that sometimes, like, look, I can throw up a lot of smoke and mirrors, but the truth comes out. Like the truth comes out.

Yeah.

That feels amazing. That's intoxicating.

I'll give you a great one. I'm a dog person. I love dogs. So I had a woman come in and she said to me, you know, described this situation of like coercive control domestic violence she'd been in for ages. And this guy was controlling, abusive in the worst possible ways, like insidious ways, but also was an incredibly charming narcissist. So like no one would ever suspect. Like if you said to anybody, 'This guy was an abuser' — 'Him? He's the nicest guy. Are you kidding me?' And she told me her story. She said, 'I'm afraid nobody's going to believe me.' He said to me, 'No one will ever believe you. You know, I'll make sure you're penniless. I'll do whatever I have to do to like crush you.' And I'm listening to this and I've handled a lot of domestic violence cases before. So I was like, 'Okay, look, the system has a way of sorting these things out and let's talk about what we can prove and what we can't.' And she said, 'You know, I have something.' She said, 'We have a puppy. We have a six-month-old black lab puppy and the Ring camera of our doorbell caught him just beating the [__] out of this six-month-old puppy.' And I was like, 'And you have that footage?' And she was like, 'Yeah.' And I was like, 'Okay, like give me everything you have and I'll take a look.' And I sat there that night and I watched this footage. And as a dog lover, like I was shaking. I mean, it was — to listen to it, to hear it, like to watch this guy just beating this puppy. And the puppy, like it's a puppy. Its tail's wagging. It's trying to like kind of get away from him and like it doesn't understand what's going on. And I just remember looking at it and thinking like, I'm going to torture this [__] guy to death.

And I called her the next day and I said, 'I'll take your case.' And she was like, 'Well, I'm worried I can't afford you.' I'm like, 'I'll cut my hourly rate in half.' I was like, 'I just want a piece of this [__].'

So, I I I took on the case and um you know, I I it was like a professional hit. Like, I got this guy thrown out of his house. I got I mean I I it happened to get assigned to a judge who I knew liked dogs who had a court attorney who I knew liked dogs. So I just made a meal out of this like you would believe and I actually when I got to the courthouse I shouldn't say this in public but I will I'm close enough to retirement I can get away with it. I actually went up to the court officers who are you know the the security for the building. They're armed, you know. And I said to him, um, uh, by the way, this is because I had mentioned that there was this case coming in where I had video of this guy beating the dog. And you ever want to see like people's vindictive side come out, tell them somebody beat up a puppy. Like I have to tell you, people like a little old lady would be like, 'Kill the motherfucker.' Like, you know. So I I said to uh the court officer, I said, 'Um, listen.' I said, 'This case is in today.' They said, 'Oh, that guy's today.' I said, 'Yeah.' I said, 'And by the way,' I said, 'If he and I ended up in the restroom at the same time together, he started whatever fight happened.' And they were like, 'Absolutely. In fact, we heard him shouting at me.' I was like, 'Thanks, man.' You know, and but sure enough, like that was a case where that single piece of evidence was able to just neutralize his ability to go in and be a charming person because you saw the real side of him that you talked about. Exactly. And the more he went in trying to be charming as opposed to saying like the more psycho he looks more felt. Sometimes you see a person and this you can see in smaller examples but that's such a crystal clear example of like oh everything you say is [__] This is you. This is you and everything she says I'm going to believe. Well and that's exactly what you say to the judge cuz I said to the judge I'm like you know judge you know for every cockroach you see there's 50 in the walls. Like we caught this on video. Like this isn't the only time he's done. How many other times? Like when was the camera not rolling in the last time I'm in court? It'll be another cockroach. So just remember for my cases specifically. That's like when Diddy did the apology video, but then the hotel video came out and was like, we looked at that apology video as such [__] Yeah, you're a psychopath. And this is in the lobby of the hotel. That's in the entrance of the house. We're not seeing what's actually happening behind closed doors. You know what I mean? So, perpetrators of domestic violence are, in my experience, like they they're charming. Like, how else would they get victims? Like, the way you you know, they're people that are great at love bombing. They're great at like convincing a person that, oh my god, I would never hurt you. I care so much about you. And then when something happens, doing the whole like, I'm so sorry that that happens. You know, I love you so much. It'll never happen again. It's really interesting because a lot of times when they're portrayed in like TV or film, they're these like drunken [__] scumbags. But there was that show I don't know if it was Pretty Little Liars or something. Not Pretty Little Liars. Uh the one that takes place in Silicon Valley. It had Nicole Kidman. Um Oh yeah. Uh I know what you're talking about. Big Little Lies. The the the the husband of Nicole Kidman was an abuser and was a great portrayal of what they're actually like. Yeah. Yeah. Good-looking, charming, successful, great with the kids, like all these. Because a lot of that like adjustment personality disorder, that like sociopath behavior, that ability to sort of blend into your circumstances, a it makes people very effective in their professional lives because they can just go into whatever setting and be whoever they need to be in that setting, but in their home life, it turns into something that, you know, that's that's chaos when you have to deal with those DV cases. I'm not going to say who cuz we're not worth it. But we all know that at my wedding the guy gave a speech, leveled the room. So funny. So charming. And then behind closed doors, it's just like, 'Oh, this is a monster. It's a whole different human being.' You thought my speech was funny. That's funny. You think we're that close? I'm going to be like this now with Mark.

I had a client once who was a custody case about like a 10-year-old. And when the woman was pregnant, when the mother was pregnant, so 11 years earlier, he had sent her all these text messages saying, cuz they'd been dating for like 2 months, like, "You need to get an abortion. I don't want this baby. If you have this baby, I want nothing to do with it." You know, and of course, he'd been for 10 years a phenomenal father, loves his kid. And the other side in our exchange of discovery, you have to like, you know, share all your ammunition in advance cuz it's not supposed to be trial by surprise. They sent me these text messages.

Exactly. Right. Anything you're going to put in like photographs, audio recordings, video, you have to exchange it in advance. It's called discovery.

And it's a process where it's meant so that everyone has the opportunity to like review something, make sure it's authentic, have it reviewed by experts if they need to, and also prepare their case, right? Prepare their case as best they can. You're not allowed to like trial by surprise. "Did you order the code red?" It doesn't really work that way. Like what you have to do is you have to exchange the stuff. So, they'd sent these text messages and my attitude was okay, we got to get in front of this. Like, we got to like Eminem 8 Mile final rap battle. Like, I got to go in and like cover this and be like, "Now tell these people something they don't know about him." You know, like I got to do something with it. So, that's exactly what I did. I put him on the stand and I said, "You know, you see these text messages, you know, did you send these texts?" He said, "Yeah." And I said, "Is that how you felt at the time?" And he was like, "Yeah." And I was like, "How do you feel when you read those text messages now?" And this guy legitimately started crying on the witness stand and he was like, "I'm so..." He's like, "I'm so mad at myself." He's like, "And I'm so horrified and I'm so like if she'd listened to me, I wouldn't have my son." Like, and he's like, "I, I, I, but I know I was like just stupid and scared." And I'm watching opposing counsel just crossing out whole pages in cross examination because we got in front of it, you know, but that is like what happens and that's also like a more human relatable moment. Like it is terrifying. I imagine when somebody gets somebody pregnant and they're not aware of it, they don't know what to do and that's this knee-jerk reaction and you sound horrible and then you have 10 years with the most amazing thing you've ever created and you are just so embarrassed that you like you could have made one flipping decision that eliminated those 10 years.

Well, and that's why, you know, when people say like representing good people and bad, like if only we could just put people in boxes of good people and bad people and just separate them. But like, you know, the line of good and evil runs right through the human heart. So, I think at the end of the day, what you have to say, like if I judge your husband, being a husband, your ability to be a husband by your best moment as a husband, you're a phenomenal husband. If I look at the worst moment you've ever had as a husband, and that's the totality of you, that's not how we... you kind of have to average.

100%. The best of us absolutely do that. Like this is a reputation, like you live and die by reputation in this business. And if you're the kind of person that just exacerbates conflict, you don't last long in this business because why? It looks like you're just trying to milk it and then the lawyers get rich and everybody else, and your client leaves with a really bad taste in their mouth because they start to see amplifying. Like my job very often is to protect people from the part of themselves that's feeling brokenhearted and vindictive. So like people come in and they're like, "I caught him [__] his secretary. I want to rip his nuts off. I hate him. I want to kill him." And my job is to go, "Look, you have every right to feel the way that you feel. But let's focus on the issues right now. Like you're going to have grandkids with this person someday. You're stuck with him. You're going to see him for the rest of your life. Like I have an ex-wife. Trust me. I got to sit next to her at graduations. I got to sit next to her." What? Like it's what you do. So you have to learn how to interact with this person. And you try to say to them, look, the good news is most people love their kids more than they hate their ex. Like most people's love for their children is the most powerful thing they have. I mean, I know we've got, you know, we've got two relatively new fathers here, you know, so I mean the truth is that that is a powerful emotion that very often will make you put down a lot of other stuff. And so it really turns into something where our job is to try to bring out the angels of people's better nature. So I always tell clients like, in a negotiating table, in a courtroom, I'm a weapon. My job is to just go at a person and attack and do that. But before you get there, when the door is closed and it's me and my whole thing is, look, I'd rather you pay her than pay me. Like, stand down. Like, let's not do this. Put your kids through college, not mine. Like, let's figure out how to do this the right way. If I get a sense when I do a consult with somebody that they have any chance that they could go to a mediator instead of using lawyers and they could sit, I'll send them right to a mediator. I probably send two, three cases a week to a mediator.

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of paths up the mountain, but the ideal process is two people sit down and they map out what do you want to do with the kids? What's going to make sense? Like, well, you work this night, I work this night, so you'll have the kids this night or that night. I mean, ideally, people could sit down at the kitchen table with a piece of paper and just map it out. But second best is you go to a mediator. That's a person who's usually an attorney or an accountant who's trained, who knows what issues to talk about, and they walk through it with you and they'll say, "All right, here's the things we have to decide," and they don't represent either person. They represent both people in a sense. The next step from that is you get two attorneys that work collaboratively that just don't come at each other, don't try to vilify either side, and just try to work, you know, come up with identifying assets, valuing them, and how to divide them, figuring out what's going on, and just doing it that way. The thing I've got very good at over the course of 25 years is the warfare part of it, like the courtroom. So the people that come to me now tend to be people that have that kind of complex case and they need someone who knows how to do that particular set of skills, which is why I have all of these amusing anecdotes of like chaos. But the truth is like the majority of divorce lawyers, it's really just about a negotiation. It's about trying to sort of, you know, work with people in a way that doesn't amp up the conflict.

No, it's actually thankfully a really small percent.

But you know the outliers, like very few people can just like hold hands, sing kumbaya and like write it down and solve it. Very few people go to war. But you hear about the war cuz a, it's way more [__] interesting. Like if I don't get invited to a lot of parties, but if I'm at a cocktail party and someone says, "What do you do?" I say, "I'm a divorce lawyer." And they're going to go, "Oh my god, you must have stories." And if I said, "I do. There was this couple and they were married and then they slowly grew apart from each other. So, they decided how they would like amicably resolve their differences financially and they shared their time with the children." They'd be like, "That's the worst [__] story." Like, they want to hear the like, "No. And then he took the chainsaw and he cut the car in half. And they said, 'Pick which half you want, bitch.'" You know, like that story, by the way. No, that's a true story.

Well, I mean, the guy ran the lady over and stabbed her 16 times.

No, it doesn't have to be fun. Yeah. Um, just absolutely insanity.

Yeah. I mean, well, I've had ones where like there's a lot of cash involved. So I had one where over the years, guy was a dentist and he took a lot of cash and what he used to do is he used to wad it up in like these round things and then fill tennis ball cans with cash and then they had a jacuzzi in the backyard and he lined the jacuzzi thing with these tennis ball cans. So, there was like $800,000 of cash in the lining of the jacuzzi. And I actually had to bring in...

an expert to testify to the size of the jacuzzi and the size of how much could be held in it, to ascertain what the value of the money that he had then removed from the jacuzzi was. Took it out. Took it all out and he was like, 'What money? I don't know what you're talking about.' You know, so that kind of stuff is like always an interesting bizarre puzzle. But yeah, I mean, people are constantly cutting [__] in half. I mean, the ones that shock me are people who come in and they've... And by the way, like Apple, Apple technology is responsible for more divorces than...

Sorry, shots fired, Steve Jobs. I'm sorry. Tim Cook's going to like... my iPhone's going to stop working now. Love your products. Don't do that to me, man. But the truth is like there's the whole integration of the different devices. Like a lot of people don't realize like your [__] text messages are coming up on the iPad that your kid's playing with, and then your wife... like you're upstairs texting with the girlfriend about like it was so great last night, you know, and then the kid is like bing bing bing, and mom comes over like what's going on? They're like I don't know, the cartoon stopped. And mom's like what is this? And all of a sudden there's naked pictures of the girlfriend and she's reading in real time, you know, and this happens like once a week. I get one of those.

Yeah, I ask myself that question a lot because sometimes people are so brazen that it's just like you kind of go, 'Yeah, I want some subconsciously.' I mean, you know, subconscious, they're just cowards. They can't end it and they're like, I just need some... if something does happen where it does end, I'm okay with it. But I don't...

I love those feels, you know. Patrice O'Neal had a thing he used to say about how... he had a great thing about how he said, you know, cheating, if you think about it, is a man... he said, a man is leaving his home to get some happiness without hurting your feelings. Going to [__] a girl behind a dumpster. Right. Right. Like but to get a little bit of happiness. So I think a lot of these guys... without hurting your feelings, cheating is for you. Yeah. And I remember like hearing that and going like, but you know when you spend enough time with people who've cheated, that's legit how they... they're like, look, I love her. I love her, but we don't have that anymore. Like we have this like we're running a daycare center together, and like I love her. I like coming home to her. I like her mom. I like her brother. Like we all get along. I like all the stuff we do. I like our home. I like our life. But like I want to [__] sometimes. Like I don't need... like I had a friend who once said to me like that the moment you know you're in a relationship is when you're in the middle of sex and you think, 'One of these days I've got to get laid,' you know. And I think that most married men do not acknowledge that this is correct. Most married men... it's a bit... most married men will go, 'Oh yeah, okay.' Like I kind of get that like the difference because again I think there is something really true about you can't... some of the freaky [__] you want to do in your head. Blame Pornhub, you know, it's on everybody's heads. You're not going to do that with the person that then you'll be like, 'Okay, so which of us is going to bathe the kids now?' Like that's... you're not going to do that. So I think men sometimes move away from that kind of a connection with their spouse and then they say, 'Look, I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to lose. I want to chase this shiny object.' And by the way, like I mean look at how many half naked women we are exposed to on a daily basis thanks to Instagram and TikTok and everything else. So it's our fault really. We have to keep degrading the women we love.

Yes. Like if they were... if you started out that way and then you said... she might secretly be like, 'Why don't you like a filthy [__] anymore? Like I'm also a mom, but I'm also a filthy slut. I'm both.'

Yeah. Cheating is one of those things. I mean, I joke that I've got a PhD in cheating because you listen to people who've been cheated on, you listen to people who've done the cheating, but the people that I'm shocked by are the people that like they know their spouse is cheating. Like they had one of those iMessage moments or they like the cameras catch stuff. All the little Nest cams, security cams, the baby cams, nanny cams catch stuff and they don't let the spouse know that they know it. And they're like three, four months in to like... I watched this person having sex with their mistress on the nanny cam. Oh Jesus. And I'm still sitting across the table from them. And I find myself thinking like, how the [__] do you keep that? Yeah, you're the sociopath actually. Like that. Like you kind of go, 'How are you not like just losing your [__] on this person at all?' You know, but people can...

Or I think it's um I don't know. I think it's a combination of like if they say it out loud, it's real. And I think they're in denial. Yeah. Sometimes people come into my office and like they have a very hard time... there's tissues on like every desk cuz people just... having to say it out loud, you know, having to like say out loud like, 'Yeah, this thing's broken,' you know.

Well I got to tell you, where in modern society... like what I will tell you is a lot more people come back from cheating than you'll ever know. So yeah, I'm interested to talk about that.

No, no, no. Nothing to do with it.

Well, it depends what the [__] is, right? Depends what you do.

Well, it depends on the nature of the infidelity. Yeah. If you get your dick sucked while you're on a trip with the boys or something like that, that's different than if you're [__] like her friend in the community cuz now you're embarrassing her. And there's this whole... Well, what I'll tell you is, you know, the difference between men and women is when a woman gets caught cheating, the man's first question is, 'Did you [__] him?' Wow. And the woman's first question is, 'Do you love her? Do you love her?' Because that's the distinction. And I will tell you in my experience, and again, don't [__] pillar me for this one, guys. I didn't make up gender roles. I'm just observing what's sitting on the other side of the [__] desk. Yeah. But what I'm not talking about you guys, I mean the comments. Which the reality is that women are much more forgiving of those things cuz I think there is a part of them that goes, 'Yeah, you're a [__] idiot. You're a guy. Like you're an idiot. You're a guy. Like this had nothing to do with me.' This has so much to lose. Yeah. That you're losing so much. Whereas a man allowing his wife to cheat, he's lost his entire identity as a man. I don't think a woman loses anything as a woman when we cheat because the expectation of us is we're a bunch of [__] idiots that can't stop putting our dick in stuff. They spend the majority of their lives telling guys that they don't want to [__] them. So when they do, you must have wanted that [__].

That I think with women. What I do feel bad for women about is the women who have been cheated on. They've said, 'Okay, you know what? I'm going to look past this. We have kids and stuff like that.' No. What I actually feel bad about is that other women have to suffer in silence, because if they told any of the women in their life, 'I'm taking him back,' they would be excavated. They would be destroyed. Like, you ever want to read vitriolic comments? Any woman who takes back a man who cheated on her, like Beyoncé got way more than Jay-Z. She had to put out a whole album because it had... Right. She had to like beat him up somehow to have some redemption. And again, from other women, because women were like, 'How dare you take him?' Because if she left him, she'd have been the girl boss. She'd have been the... Yeah.

Same thing. You get pilloried for it. Yeah. I mean, so you have to suffer in silence. You have to not tell people that this happened. Which, by the way, it is a hard thing for people to come back from, rebuild trust from. People do it all the time. People do it all the time. And usually what it is, they come into my office, they're like, 'I want to kill him. I want him out. I want to file tomorrow.' And I have done this long enough that I'll go, 'Okay, listen. If we want to do it, we'll do it, and on Monday we'll still do it, but let's... This just happened. Let's take a breath. Let's get our ducks in order. Let's, you know...' And usually a couple days later, they'll call me and they'll say, 'You know what? We talked and then we're gonna go talk to someone. We're going to go to a counselor.' And very often I never hear from that person again. And I think that they figure out a way to navigate. Kids make a difference. Kids make a huge, massive... You have, I mean, look, you have a tremendous reason to keep it together if you have children. I mean, you're fully going in, best case scenario, you're going to lose a huge chunk of time with your children. You're going to lose the support of a co-parent. I mean, it's difficult to raise a child with two people. It's difficult with one person. It's incredible. Impossible. It's like unless you have help, I can't believe. Yeah. It's very challenging. So, I think that people have... the more skin you have in the game, you know? Like that's why I always say, like the ultra... people say like, 'Oh, it must be really hard representing like super wealthy people.' I'm like, 'No, they have enough money to buy another house and another apartment and another place in the Hamptons.' So, they each have one and they have nannies that travel between both places. So, there's stability for the kids. And sometimes they keep the kid in the same house and the parents nest... nesting. The parents... the kids have the nest. So, the kids never have to leave, which is really awesome. The parents each get an apartment and they kind of come back and forth with the kids. You know, look, we... That's like a huge privilege. How many people can own three homes? Like, it's... But that is probably the best for the children because now they're not packing a bag literally every single week. You know what I'll tell you is, we don't know who discovered water, but it probably wasn't a fish. Like, when a kid grows up in an environment where mom was here, dad was here, and I spent time with each, that's just all they know. Like, okay, that's how it was. Like when a kid's 10, 11, 12 and suddenly mom and dad who are living together are living in different places, that's traumatic. That's challenging. But if you're a little... if you're a 2-year-old and now it's like, okay, dad lives here, mom lives here, and I spend... when you ask that person when they're in high school like, 'What was your childhood like?' They'll say like, 'I don't know, like it was, yeah, I live with mom sometimes, dad sometimes. I spend time with both of them.' It's also if you grow up in like New York City where, you know, divorce is pretty popular, it's probably easier for you to do. But I agree with you, like the kids can be absolutely destroyed if it happens when they're a little bit older, a little bit smarter and aware of what's going on. And I see a lot of divorce where the kids are kind of being used as like a leverage tool. That's really up.

I mean, what I always say is that the person who cares less about the children has tactical advantage in a custody proceeding. Wow. In the same way that a bank robber has tactical advantage over the cops because they can shoot innocent bystanders. Like the cops can't just spray with a machine gun and hope they'll hit one of the robbers, but robbers can just spray and hope they hit the cops. Like they can run over the sidewalks...

You know, by insidiously alienating a child from their co-parent, you know, by injecting into the child like a dislike or a fear of your co-parent so that you get custody. I mean, by the way, most of the time this isn't just done as a vindictive thing. It's also done for financial reasons because if you have the children more than 50% of the time, you get child support and that's a big chunk of money. New York State, one kid's 17% of your gross income less FICA. Two kids is 25%, three kids 29%, four kids 31%. So like the... of your gross income, think about four... taxes. So if you're spending 50% of taxes, like say you're some rich person, 31% is going to your wife and the children. If you have four kids, if you have four kids and only if she gets them 51% of the time, you still got to provide for your life. It'd be a lot cheaper to just hire a nanny and fight for custody. And that's what ends up happening. And there's alimony that goes along with that. There can be spousal support that goes along with that. But think about... so if it goes to 50% and you hire the nanny. Yeah. At 51% to 50%, there's no real difference in the amount that you're going to see your children. But the difference in the amount that you're giving to that woman, massive, who now you hate and hates you. Wow. Yeah. And by the way, there's no one like doing an accounting to make sure it's spent on the kids. So like sometimes it's like that was meant to be for the kids and it was used for the tit job or it was used for like sex toys with a new boyfriend.

In New York, we have what's called the best interest standard, but most states have some variation of that. And it's as subjective and crazy as you'd think it is. Like it really is full context storytelling. Like you go in as a lawyer and you just have to try to tell the story of why your client is stable, consistent, reliable, and a good parent and why the other side is less than and why the...

Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty common misconception, and I understand why people say that because I think women fight much harder for custody than men do. And I'll tell you why. Like, and I probably don't even need to, but I'll point out. If you and I, all right, if we meet in real life, we're just out in a bar, and you say to me, 'So, Jim, tell me about yourself.' And I say, 'Well, you know, I'm a lawyer. I'm divorced. I have my kids. They live with their mom. Every other weekend, I have them.' You'd go, 'Oh, divorced dad. Nice guy, probably.' You know, 'I'm a woman. You don't have those kids?' 'I have two kids. They live with their dad. I see them every...' What the is wrong with her? Drugs, mental health. And by the way, like I mean, go on Instagram #momlife. Like, believe me, like I've represented some co-parents of celebrities that like these people are opioided out of their minds, but when it's time to trade that kid out like a Birkin bag, you know, they bring them out and they're like, 'Ah, I'm a mom.' And then they're like back to, 'All right, take this kid away.' You know, and they could care less. But it's optics, you know? Whereas for a man, if you go, 'Yeah, the kids live with their mom.' People go, 'Oh, yeah, of course kids live with their mom.' So that's where I think that comes from. But the truth is, like men get custody all the time. The maternal presumption was eradicated years ago. There used to be something called what was called the tender years doctrine, which was if a child was under the age of seven, you let the mom... mom automatically got custody unless you could show she was an unfit mother. That was eradicated in the 1980s. But you know, some of the judges like have been around since then. So they remember that. And judges remember... judges are human. Like judges are people. So they have the same bias as anybody else has. So sometimes he's... the judge is a divorced dad who's like, 'Dads are just as good as moms.' What the Sometimes they're a pissed-off ex-wife of somebody and they're like, 'Fuck that guy.' Because they're taking out, you know, these are humans.

No, you know, I represented... actually I was one of the first people to represent a trans woman in a custody proceeding about 20 years ago.

No, they were. They were. They were. This was actually a really amazing story. I... this was like the most manly man I'd ever known. Like he was like the mo... he was jacked. He was like a big dude. Yeah. And he... I knew him because he'd actually done work on my house. And I remember thinking, because I was married at the time, I remember thinking my ex-wife secretly wanted to him because he was like this big dude, work boots, the whole thing. So one day he calls me up, and he loves renovation. He calls me. He's an interior decorator, but it doesn't matter. This is a fixer-upper here. He made some significant changes. He calls me up one day. He says, 'Can I come in and talk to you?' And I said, 'Yeah, sure.' And I knew he was married and he had two very young kids. So he comes in. I'm like, 'Oh, he's probably having marital problems.' Comes into my office. I said, 'What's going on?' He says, 'Look, I think we're splitting up.' And did I say, 'Oh, man. I'm sorry to hear it.' I said, 'What's going on?' And he goes, 'Well, I've decided I want to live my life as a woman.' I was like, 'Wait, excuse me.' This is 20 years ago. Like, this is not part of like the cadence, you know? This wasn't a thing. And this was not the dude you would think. Like, this was... there was nothing feminine about this guy. Like, I was way more feminine than this guy. And he was like, like, 'Yeah, you know, I've always felt this way.' And I, you know, and he did. Sure enough, he transitioned pretty quickly. And like many people who transition, initially he looked like a guy wearing a wig and like he looked like a dude who was, you know, he'd started hormones. And when we went to court, the judge actually issued a temporary decision saying that he was allowed to see his kids as long as he dressed like a man when he saw his kids. Now, if the judge did that now, they'd be thrown off the bench and possibly jailed for a hate crime. But back then, that was considered a perfectly acceptable resolution. Funny PS to that story, by the way. Yeah. 10 years later, I'm walking into the courthouse and I'm standing there talking to one of my colleagues and I look off to the far left and I see a very attractive woman staring at me and I'm thinking like, 'You still got it, Sexton, you know, it's the tie.' Yeah. And she's just smiling at me. So, I'm like, 'Do I know her? This is weird.' So, I finish this conversation. I kind of do the peacocking thing where I'm like, 'All right, man. Catch you later.' And I'm like, I'm going to walk past her. So, I walk up, very cute. I said, 'Uh, hey, how you doing?' And she goes, 'Good. How you doing?' I go, 'Good.' She goes, 'You don't remember me.' And I said, 'I'm sorry, I don't. I would think I would.' And she goes, 'It's me, Amy.' And I was like, 'Amy.' And she goes, 'Andy.' And I went, 'Holy shit.' It was that person. It was that person with 10 years of hormones and a bunch of other things.

Exactly. I guess so. But it just felt like, you know, I did feel a little deflated because I was like, 'Oh, I got this hot chick checking me out.' And then I'm like, 'Oh, no.' Okay. It's not for the reasons I thought. Yeah. Former client. You can't do that. No, but then after we got together it was fine. No.

I was given a motorcycle once. I had a client who said, you know, he used to like fix up bikes and I used to ride at the time and he said, um, you know, 'I'm going to pay you. I just got to sell this bike that I just fixed up.' Oh, what bike is it? And he showed me and I was like, 'I'll just take the bike.'

No, I'll accept cash, but I do tell them like there's rules about how we take cash and then we have to report it if it's over $10,000. But oh, I've had people who come in with like $300,000 in cash and they're like, 'Can I just pay my bill with this?' And when you say to them, 'Yes, but I have to then report to the bank where I got it.' And suddenly they're like, 'No problem. I'll bring you a check, you know, instead.' Okay. So, you're by the book when it comes to payment. You have to be as a lawyer. I mean, a lot of lawyers are wild west with that He's got... He's almost retired. Yeah. Yeah. Let it go. Not lawyers banging outside of town. No, we went to a hotel. I have some class here. I'm a cheap date. No, I feel like a lot of lawyers... What's interesting is if you read the disciplinary opinions for lawyers, it's really funny because they lawyers and disbar lawyers for financial stuff really fast. Almost like you read... they publish these decisions. It's like runs chills through all of us. But you'll read it and they're like, 'This lawyer had sex with three of his clients. Uh he, you know, had a serious cocaine problem and he told three of his clients that cases were resolved when in fact they weren't. Uh you know, suspended for two weeks from the practice of law.' And then they're like, 'This guy did not report $23 that he received in cash. Disbarred.' And you're like, 'Fuck.' Like the money thing is the biggest thing. So lawyers who play it fast and loose with that stuff, like you're not going to be around.

No. No. And I have to tell you...

No.

Because I'm trying to figure out how to say this without offending any of my existing clients. The truth is that if you represent a woman in her divorce, you will never want to date her. Like, you see the worst of this person. Like, you know there's a rule there.

There's a rule in New York. There's a rule in New York. Matrimonial lawyers are not... We're the only lawyers that are not allowed to have sex with our clients. It's a rule. Like if I do a real estate closing for someone, you can them. But if you're a divorce lawyer, domestic relations lawyer, you cannot have sex with your client for 6 months after the representation's concluded.

But I'm telling you something. Whoever... whoever wrote that rule... Yeah. ...was not a divorce lawyer because you don't even want to talk to these people, much less Some of these women, some of these women too, they have a hero thing they've put on you. Yeah. That is so unhealthy. Because first I'm starting to sweat all... take a break. I'm going to call my lawyer.

I mean, look, it'd probably be fantastic. Yeah, it'd be a lot of money. Yeah. Listen, it's not, you know, I'm not... He's got enough money to do better than me at that point, you know.

Yeah. I mean, look, they do. What I'll tell you is your female clients fall in love with you. They do, but it's not you that they're in love with. You're their hero in this situation, and so you have to have the presence of mind. Like it's like when you're a college professor, like yeah, of course you got 20-some-year-old girls who are like coming to your office hours like they and they're into you. Of course there's a part of your brain that goes, 'Oh my god, are you kidding me? This is ' But the truth is they think you know you don't know. They think that you're this genius person. You're just a person. Like so I really don't like... that's not... they're not in love with you.

I know some things. I know some things. Well, here's what I say. Hit a court clerk in Manhattan family court. She knows some stories about you.

I mean, that's really... you launched that one. Look, that's how you get 50% off. It's never pro bono, but that's me. I'm going to give you my card. Anything. They'll come over. It's lovely.

I mean, see, like in your head, there's like these super hot young women I'm representing who like now have $100 million and want to me. It's really like you're not thinking about the money. It's mostly like women in like their 50s with like they all got that New York, you know, like surprise cosmetic surgery look and like this is not like I could do better than that.

Of course he should have a fun all three. All of you should have a freedom. But it's no fun.

Who cares? I mean, look, what I'll tell you is I mean, first of all, I don't think anybody wants their marriage to continue, their spouse to stay in the marriage because they don't want to give up half their That's like a bad incentive, right? Like you want someone to stay married to you because they want to be married to you. They think you add value to their life, that they enjoy your company, that more often than not they're glad they're with you, whatever. Any number of justifications, but to say, 'Well, I'm with him because I don't want to have to give away half.' You got broke boy mentality. Terribly, right? He's got broke boy mentality. He's like a child. We got... He's like a big child. Yeah. We got... So, if I were to get a prenup, what should I include in it? I think the easiest prenup is the one that I would encourage most people to have, which is I call it the yours, mine, and ours. If it's in your name, asset or liability, you keep it. If it's in her name, asset or liability, she keeps it. If it's in joint names, you split it 50/50. That's it. Clean. Here's what I'll tell you. Everybody, you have all three of you have a prenup. The government wrote it. Oh, the state legislature wrote your prenup. And by the way, like you think that's a good idea? Like, you think you ever been to the DMV? You ever walk into the DMV and go, 'These people should be in charge of everything. Like, they're great at it. This is really good.' No. The reality is like the government is the worst people to win your...

To you. Both of you. Both of you. The prosecutor. You signed up. You've signed up for a rule set that you don't even know. I don't know. But you bought a house, right? You bought a house. You had to sign a HUD-1, a lead paint disclosure. You got all this information about the loan. You got married. You didn't get a pamphlet. You just did the most legally significant thing you're going to do in your whole life other than die. And you have no clue what happened.

So, it is crazy. It is what it's about. It is crazy. It is crazy. 100%. Because my attitude is, look, all kidding aside, every marriage has a prenup. It's either one that's written by the government or it's written by the two people that like each other theoretically more than the other 8 billion other options, right? So, who is better to come up with a rule set than those two people? And that's all a prenup is. The prenup is just saying, 'Look, you know, there's going to come a time like if you get married, it's smart to say to your spouse when you're getting along still.' Yeah. Babe, we're going to get in a fight at some point. I promise. It's probably going to be my fault. I'm going to say some dumb I say dumb It happens. Yeah. When we get in that fight, what should that look like? Do you need a minute? Should I give you some space? Like, if I force you to talk about it, is it going to turn into a whole thing? Or do we need to take care of this now because you don't want to go to bed angry? Like I want to know because the worst time to learn how to fight is when you're in a fight. Like that's the worst time to learn how to do a fight. So that's all a prenup is. A prenup is saying, 'Look, we're getting along right now. We have an abundance of goodwill between the two of us. If, god forbid, in the highly unlikely 56 percent... the highly unlikely chance that we would get divorced, what would that look like?' And by the way, there's a way to say it that I think has a tremendous amount of big dick energy, which is to say, you know what? You're my woman. I want you to feel safe. You can't feel loved unless you feel safe. And the way I want you to feel safe, the way I want you to feel safe is I want you to feel safe from everyone, including me. So, what is our...