Welcome to the Real Z Talks. So happy to have you with us here today, opening the first season, episode one of The Art of Self-Awareness.
I'm honored that you thought of me for your first. I'm honored that we're getting more voices out from the region and the country in English, and I really hope we can have, as we always do, a heart-to-heart whenever we talk. Only this time we have three cameras and two mics pointed at us.
Of course, it's a bilingual conversation. So, if you feel okay to talk in Arabic, go ahead.
We're just two people being ourselves.
So, what energy are you walking in with today?
Positivity. Yeah, for sure. You ask me why. If you were to ask me why, I don't know. I think good doesn't come from being negative, or not negative, or mediocre about anything. I don't think anything good happens from that kind of mindset. I think one of the reasons why the Americans have excelled in anything they put their mind to is because of the irrational positivity that they approach anything with. It's inspiring. Some people laugh at it. The Brits would laugh at it because the Brits don't have that kind of positivity. But the Americans, they didn't even have a decent football league 30, 40 years ago, and now their games are very interesting. In the Olympics, any event they take part in, you'll probably see an American on the podium. They approach things with irrational positivity, something I'm trying to do because if we don't, then what are we doing here, right? We have less time than we think.
So, before time, platform, what defined Mo back then? What season were you in your life back then?
Very interesting question. I was actually defined by what I wasn't.
Which was a failure, which was doesn't finish anything he starts, which was not serious about life. Those are the things that defined me, for better or worse. Mo is whatever it was, it was finish the sentences, but it was a negative connotation.
Did you believe that about yourself?
I eventually bought into the narrative. You know, the more people that said it to me, elder statesmen in my family, bosses, thinking that I'm less than for whatever reason, made me, you know, I was condescended. I was made to feel that I was X minus. I think it just got to a point at the age of 37, 38, when COVID hit, where I managed to have an out-of-body experience. I was looking at my life from the top and I asked myself, having jumped off the hamster wheel being the corporate life, how much longer do I want to do this for? How much longer do I want to build someone else's dream and do something that is not my strength or forte or what I was put on this planet to do? How much longer? It's been 13 years in corporate.
And I was 37 when we hit. Just randomly, my older brother sent me a link of something called The Joe Rogan Experience, and he had the great Naval Ravikant on. It was a two-hour episode. Couldn't stop watching, and it was that episode that told me, this is it for you in the seat of the interviewer, the Rogan interview, this is it for you. That seat is vacant in the region. And Naval on the other side was saying humans aren't meant to work 9 to 5. He was saying end of the industrial revolution is the beginning of the information revolution. He was saying own a piece of a business.
So he was talking to you.
He was talking to me on this function, on this format. So you can't imagine the aha moment I had. I messaged my brother. I'm like, thank you so much for the link. He's like, enjoyed the episode. I was like, it was eye-opening. It was eye-opening, not the content just that, but for me, it gave me an idea. And then three years from that day, I left my corporate job to do the podcast full-time.
So it took you three years and then you left. You didn't leave right away.
Three years. I started it September 9th, 2020. I left August 31st, 2023. It took me just shy of three years, one week shy of three years. Why? As we were speaking before we started rolling, consistency. Consistency in my eyes, Albert Einstein might disagree. Although compound interest isn't too far away from consistency. Albert Einstein said compound interest is the seventh wonder of the world. Yeah, consistency as well, you know. Yeah, if you continuously invest in a fund over time, it grows. That's the seventh wonder of the world, as Albert Einstein said. And I would say that consistency, not that I have any business being in a sentence with Albert Einstein, but consistency was the only reason that allowed me to do it full-time, to have my own studio that I pay rent for, to have guests by names that I would have never been able to attain or have a conversation with. Not because I was a good speaker, a good podcaster. I managed to get a little bit better with every episode. Chipped away.
Were you ever a good listener, or this happened to be, you know, took time for you?
I was just a talker all my life.
Was it before the podcast that you became a good listener, or it took you a while?
The podcast allowed me to shut up and listen because if I don't let my guests speak, then it cannot be. Although it says The Mo Show, it's not about me, it's about the guests. My favorite episodes are where I interject as little as possible. If it was up to me, I'd speak less than 1% per episode. I love those episodes. Just let the guest audio book it. So it did allow me to be quiet and listen and carry that into my real life, where I think, and I'm hoping my wife would agree with me, that yeah, he has become a better listener before and after. If that's the only good thing that I got from creating, from the podcast in all its glory, if the only good thing about it is that I became a better listener, I'll take that.
I remember watching your first episode, and you were maybe, let's say, worried or conscious about airing the episode, maybe what people are going to say, how are you going to be perceived.
You know, that was actually our second.
It was our second episode with the same person. We shot the first episode the day before with Muhammad, but at the end of the episode, when we came to hear the audio and the video, we were very excited. It turned out that my microphone was off, something I hope isn't right now. So that was actually a moment for me to realize, do I want to do this? Is this really for me, or do I pick myself up and let's give this another crack? And I said, you know what? I can't trip at the first hurdle. No, I enjoyed that conversation so much, even though my microphone was off. I'm going to ask Muhammad to come back tomorrow. Let's shoot it again. My fault. We shot it again, and episode two was actually episode one was actually.
So when you shot it again, you said the same things over again.
I had to ignore. I had to have a goldfish memory and ignore everything that happened the day before and treat it like, yeah, like 001. Let's go. Thinking of other people and what they have to say about you. I don't think I had much confidence in myself. Did they judge me or did they not? What did they think of me? Acceptance. Friend group, no problem. But in real life, business world, I think I was a little bit more in my head with regards to acceptance. Sensitive. I was very sensitive. People pleaser for the longest time. Maybe I still am on some level. But yeah, the confidence wasn't where it is today with regards to my value.
But sometimes, you know, we need a win. You know what? No, you're more worthy than what you might give yourself credit for. What was the turning point where you felt, okay, I'm feeling this in my body right now that I'm more worthy and I'm believing it more and I'm not a people pleaser? I'm done with that. How did you overcome that point? Because that's a lot of work.
I don't think there was an exact moment in time where I felt that I'm no longer a people pleaser, but with a few wins along the way, Prince Abdul Aziz's team reaching out and saying, you know, we'd like to have him on the show, and getting that, that was a huge on-the-map moment for me. Princess, you know, took it home for us. Really put us on the map. And then a few phone calls that came my way. Government-related trips, two of them. Brands that said, you know, we want to put our name on your show. Big, big names. Being recognized in public by those who I don't know, non-famous people as well as very well-known people. Being invited to the royal court, two occasions. All those small wins had extinguished my lack of confidence. Am I worthy? All the days of feeling less than, X minus, failures in school. I was a failure in the corporate world. I was like, you know, I got through it, but I wasn't working in an area of passion and thus I couldn't give it my 100% to really feel that, you know, I was made for this. So, seeing the success in the podcast really just was able to make me forget about the 37 years of being made to feel less than.
I always knew that I wanted to create something amazing and good. I remember in my mid-30s I'd see, oh my god, that person became a minister. He's my age. Or at the age of 25, this guy became a professional sports player. He made something of himself. And at the age 36, 37, I'm like, what have I done? Nothing. And then I think when I hit 40, 41, I stopped being too concerned about my age because I actually felt that, okay, I did something that I can be proud of, you know, that I'm passionate about, that's my work, my name on the door, that I'm making my country, doing something for my country, and something that, you know, the people can be proud of.
So that like fades the noise anyway.
Yeah, it just starts fading and I don't need any more validation. And it's something that I needed from a lot of people, even in my family, validation, and I never got it. I always got, yeah, but you're not serious about life. You know, and today the same people who used to say that I wasn't serious about life are asking me what the trip to Washington, D.C. was like with MBS. So it's a full-circle moment. Alhamdulillah. I didn't ask for this life. It came to me.
But you deserve it. Maybe you believe that you deserve it. That's why you.
I did believe that I deserved it, but never in a million years did I think, you know, shooting episode 1 or episode 10 or episode 20 will eventually allow me to, you know, be in these rooms with people that I never imagined being in. And then I just remember in the first week of August 2023, I was in Makkah and I got a call from the Ministry of Media saying, we'd like you to join the crown prince on a media delegation to Delhi for the G20. After I confirmed that it wasn't a prank, then I was like, I might have done something really special in the last three years of the podcast, 80 episodes, 90 episodes, three years. And now the government, the country is seeing the value. I called up my uncle and I told him, remember when I told you if the podcast ever gets in the way of my work, you'll be the first to know? Because the first seven episodes, I shot it in my office cubicle.
So you were working while you were shooting, on weekends? Oh, wow.
So I told him, listen, I want to start this podcast. It's basically like a radio for the internet. So I'm going to put a few mics in my office that I will shoot on the weekends only. And my boss at the time, you know, called my uncle, he's like, I told you my. Wasn't for that boss, I wouldn't have started the podcast. But I would shoot the first seven, eight episodes in my office cubicle, and I told my uncle that if it ever gets, from early days, if it ever gets in the way of, and the first person I'll speak to is you, and I'll tell you that I can't do both. After that call, I soaked it in. A week later, I called him and I said, yeah, further to what I said, I think it's time I do the podcast full-time. He's like, great. What's prompting this? I got a call from the Ministry of Media and they want me to be part of the media delegation to Delhi for the G20. He's like, I'm so proud of you. Go out there and make us all proud the way you are, and you'll always have a place in the company if you want to come back.
It's a beautiful story. Okay. I mean, when my dad passed away 21 years ago, this uncle of mine, Muhammad Ali, filled in the gap of my dad. So I'm forever indebted to this human being.
Take me back to that big moment where you were at the royal court when you met the President of the United States, Donald Trump. When you look back at that moment, were you the person you are today? That moment.
It's a very good question. I felt that I belonged. That you see in news channels.
Did you feel small or big?
I felt bigger than I thought I would. Yeah, definitely bigger than I thought I would. Striking up conversations because it's like entourage, businessmen. Yeah. So it was an amazing opportunity to be included in this room with, you know, some very important people that had to. And I'm looking around and I'm like, I have no business being in here, but you know what, the country sees that I bring something valuable. So whether I belong here or not, allow me to soak in every second of this moment because it's not guaranteed that I'll ever be back. It's not guaranteed. So I am going to soak in this moment that just feels right.
Alhamdulillah, Becky Anderson, Alessandro, John Pagano, and we're just back. And John knows me, and Becky's like, you've had Princess Reema on, so she, my God, she knows my work, you know, the CNN anchor. It just felt right. And as I was approaching Trump, I was like, you know, I don't want to just say my name and just go off, you know, I kind of want to make an impression. So I conjured up something in my mind, and as I was getting close to him, I, President of Muhammad Islam. He's like, Hello, Muhammad. And I said, and still, and he, wait a minute. It was a bit mundane for him because he said hello to 200 people before me. Yeah. And you know, you can imagine, Hello, Ahmed. Hello, Abdullah. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. And I'm like, Hello. So for him, it's just another face. I said, The Joe Rogan of Saudi Arabia. So I'm told.
So what? He pulls me in. He's like, Is that right? And I was like, Yes, sir. That's what they say. And he's like, well, that's just fantastic, Muhammad. And I think I glimpsed him like just looking a bit to his left. Yeah. To the crown prince when he said, that's just fantastic, Muhammad. Then Prince Mohammed giggled. Yeah. And protocol was, you know, we can only say hello to President Trump. So just the fact that I had that exchange where Prince Mohammed giggled and I'm shaking the hands of Trump and here I am like in this triangle. It was a moment and a half. Let me tell you, he's like, That's amazing. Keep, you know, keep doing what you're doing, Muhammad. Best of luck to you.
When you look back at like all the milestones,
podcast. I don't. No, this just started as I enjoy conversations. Let me just put a few episodes out there and see what this world is about. Um, the people I meet, the places I'm going to go, I mean, from alhamdulillah, just the last six months from Osaka and Tokyo for Expo to Moscow for Saudi Airlines's new flights from Riyadh to Jeddah for an EU governmental thing where I met Adel Al-Jubeir to Toulouse, Munich, Hamburg with, yeah. And then now obviously New York most recently. It's just been like all the, like I'm noticing I'm getting on planes for the podcast, the risk that I took in starting this podcast. I'm getting on planes now that I wouldn't be on if it wasn't for the podcast that I started. So you have no idea how often I, alhamdulillah, for allowing me to live a life where I feel this is what I was born to do and be one that I'm excited to live in because for the longest time it wasn't a nice sensation, but I feel like you have to taste sour to enjoy sweet, just to feel underutilized and know, God, this is so not what I was on earth to do. What is, what are you on earth to do? I don't know, but just not this. So just to know that getting these cameras and the mics that look exactly like this, the Shure SM7Bs, shout out Shure, just, you know, putting a few episodes, conversations made this kind of impression where away from the podcast, alhamdulillah, I'm MCing, I'm moderating, we're going to LA in two weeks with our friends at IWC. LA Ramadan for three nights.
Interesting. There was no pod. There were no those opportunities. And I just want to continue no matter what. I just want to continue to show our region and not just Saudi. Like I stopped saying, you know, I want to show Saudi for the light that I want to show the Arab world, the Islamic world what we're capable of. Some great podcasters in our region, some great podcasters. Anas in Dubai, Min in Beirut, Faisal from Kuwait, the Tammena guys here, you know, Omar and Abd, just the really, and I'm probably at the bottom of that list in terms of conversational abilities. I'm telling you, we have some impressive people in our region that we don't get the necessary credit for.
That's so true. Now, here you are joining the list of, for the first time. For the first time, you're the one who is being interviewed. There's no control.
Watch me flip it on you in a minute.
No way. How do you show up as a father for your children? Is there something that changed the way you see yourself through your kids?
I always felt that I had father tendencies. If we're going on a trip with friends, I handle the itinerary. I make sure everyone is safe. I, you know, always looking around just making sure that if there are phones on the table, you know, guys, put your phones in your pockets. But I had this father, I had to remember like one of my female cousins was like, and your nickname should be Daddy Mo. But I didn't feel that I had to be someone else when I entered fatherhood, which is the absolute biggest blessing you can ask for in this life, as you know through your motherhood experience. Of course, it is where I'm at most peace. It's where nothing else matters. It's where it stops. Yeah. Presence, being on the couch with my kids or in the playroom with them. And new rule, when I'm with them, phone nowhere to be seen. The best.
Nothing breaks their heart more than them wanting your attention. And my twins are very young. They're three, and here you are looking at this device like, I think if you know, a piece of them breaks every time they see that. For it's such an honor and a privilege, and I'm told it goes by fast. So if I'm traveling and a trip can be two days instead of three, then it's two days. Yeah.
If it can be one day instead of two, then it's one. If it can be a day trip and a bad day trip, it goes back to you. Don't we have less time than we think, and the childhood flies.
A ticking time or clock that we don't see.
We don't see what a horrific thing not to know the balance of, and the most important thing, which is how much time you have left on earth. And that, you know, that also goes to, is it really worth getting upset at someone who cuts you off on the road? Is it really upset by, you know, flipping out on someone because of an email that they sent that maybe you couldn't pick up on the tone and it sounded like they were angry or shouting? Is it really like, just think about who you give your energy to for better or worse.
At the moment you're engaged into that so much. Before we were talking, we were saying how when you zoomed out to the world, these moments don't matter when you start, you know, getting upset over the smallest things. If you zoom out,
So I picture the universe with a tiny dot says you're here worrying about taxes.
Exactly. I saw that too. It's so funny. It really makes you realize like, is it really worth it?
Do what you got to do. But sitting there and thinking and stressful, like instead of sitting there being stressed about it, go work out and I promise you you will find a solution for your problem that you wouldn't have seen pre-workout.
You get like 90 seconds. You get angry for 90 seconds. After that, it's up to you.
Whether you want to respond and stay in this loop or to break it.
Yeah, it's all up to you. I love the new saying that I've come across and I can implement into a lot of things. The person who will beat you is doing this, is working out four times a week. The person who will beat you is not doing this. Whether it's if you consume substances that deter you or if you get angry too much. So in the back of my mind, Muhammad, the person that is going to beat you to this opportunity or, you know, will be a better conversationalist or the person that will whatever is doing it the correct way. Now that person doesn't have a face and it's a faceless person who I think I'm telling myself that I'm chasing in a healthy way so that I can be the best version of myself. I love it. 90 seconds or more, then it's a choice.
