I'm joined now by Muhammad Islam, who is the host and the founder of the Mo Show, which is one of the kingdom's leading podcasts. It's also in the English language. Mo, thank you very much indeed for coming to see us. For people who don't know your show, and that could be people who don't live in Saudi Arabia, what sort of topics do you typically cover?
First of all, thanks Tom for having me. Thanks to Arabia for this opportunity. I think it covers, in a nutshell, life really. The idea came to me smack in the middle of COVID back in 2020, and I took note of how misunderstood, misinterpreted, our country was, misrepresented, let's say. You know, the dichotomy of what things are actually like here versus the perception of the country abroad really irked me. And I was a big fan of the Joe Rogan show, and one day it just clicked. I was like, you know, we don't, you know, the seat of Joe Rogan is unoccupied in Saudi. Why don't I take a stab at it? I failed at pretty much everything I've put my mind to in life, but let me really put my mind to this and see if I can make something of it. And now six years later, we're approaching 200 episodes. So, really living the dream, the Saudi dream. Tom,
Yeah, I saw that. Nearly 200 episodes, hundreds of millions of views on YouTube. I mean, how do you grow something from a hobby to the sort of scale you're at today?
I think it'll be cliché to say you have to believe, but I think I really doubled down on it because I believed we needed a platform like this where we can have conversations that are more human-centric, you know, no agenda-driven, no bullet points, nothing pre-rehearsed. Obviously, I'd go in prepared with a few questions, but I've never stuck to the script. And again, I took note of, you know, the podcasting industry exploding around the world. So I was like, you know what, if I play my cards right and put together a product that's really well, I think two things would happen here: the locals, my countrymen and women, would tune in. You know, maybe we can build something that they'd be proud of. It's also translated in English. You know, I always thought that if I'm going to talk about my country and my people in English, the least I can do is translate it for those who don't understand English, so they know what on earth it is I'm talking about. And so we achieved that. And now what I'm really enjoying seeing is in our analytics, the number of non-Saudi listeners and watchers. We're at par right now across all platforms. We're at 50% GCC and 50% non-GCC. Two years ago, Tom, it was 80% GCC and 20% non-GCC. So the plan has worked to achieve, or attempting to achieve, showing what's really happening on the ground in Saudi, changing the perceptions, changing the misconceptions, so people can understand what's really happening here on the ground and don't take the word of Hollywood movies or mainstream media, dare I say, that are constantly wanting to bash our country for what it's not. Let's show them for what it is. So that's in a nutshell.
And this is coming from someone that, again, for the benefit of our viewers who don't know you so well, you've lived abroad a lot of your life in the United Kingdom, in the United States, anywhere else that I've forgotten?
No, just five years there and eight years in the US.
Right. And what is the misconception that you find particularly irritating, particularly tiresome, and the one you really wanted to clear up?
First of all, like the moment I say I'm from Saudi, they're like, 'Really? Are you from Saudi?' I'm like, 'Yeah, why does that puzzle you?' 'Well, you don't look Saudi.' Well, excuse me. I have some friends of mine that are way blonder, if you want to call me blonde, they're like really blonde, albino almost, turquoise blue eyes, that you would think they're Scandinavian. So I don't know what's this conception you have of how a Saudi person should look like. So it was, you don't look Saudi, you don't sound Saudi. Like, again, what's a Saudi supposed to sound like? And, oh, we just, you know, didn't think that Saudis can be, you know, what we see in front of our eyes. So I wanted to address that first and foremost. And it was funny because the misconceptions that I was met with in the UK was very similar to the US. So on some level, at the age of 11, Tom, I felt like I was filling the shoes of an ambassadorial role, if you will, that made me feel, wow, you know, at the end of a couple of months or a couple of years in the school, I've changed how people viewed our country and region in a way where I felt that, wow, you know, I was proud to do so. So fast forward 20 years today, I don't think what I'm doing today is any dissimilar to what I was doing back in the day, showing my country and region for what it is and not for what it's not.
Okay. I mean, let's go back to your show a little bit. I mean, there are obviously lots of podcasts out there. How would you define the DNA of your show? What sets it apart?
You know, we always look for the story. I think content is king, as you know, in this day and age. So when people say, you know, how, based on what do you choose your guests, I look for the interesting story, one that could resonate, one that perhaps wasn't told. And if you can get, you know, that trifecta, if you will, nothing gets me more excited than getting someone on the show who no one's ever heard of before. And I'd hate for this to be an ego move, but that story is told for the first time, almost like an exclusive, through the Mo Show, where we're giving a mic, we're putting the mic under the chin of an unsung hero. Because I've been fortunate enough to have the Princess Rees of the world, the Prince Abdulazizes of the world, you know, the big blue-chip names in our country. But when I have someone on the show who not many people have heard of and they tell their story, the local audience and the international audience, both in unison, almost say, 'Wow, we didn't know that we had someone who achieved 75m depth free diving or an 11-year-old who just started a podcast in English.' And the fact that we have this, it just baffles me that through this show I'm able to have conversations, and it's an honor for me to have a conversation with people who are so impressive, who, if it wasn't for the podcast, I don't think I would have had the opportunity not to only have that conversation with them, but to beam it to the world. You take a 60-second micro-segment that does the rounds. It's just an amazing age to live in whereby in a cubicle of, you know, 4x4m, if you create good content, your target audience is the world. You know, again, Tom, I go back to how we're at par today. 50% is GCC, 50% is non-GCC. I strive to grow that number to 80% non-GCC. Because if you look at, I don't want to name names, but you know, the big names in Western media, they're not about to share any good stories about what happens in the region. So I almost feel incumbent upon me and people in my space to do our job to show the world what's really happening here, because propaganda is a real thing.
Tom, we have that in common actually, because that's a big part of what we do at Al Arabiya English with the business show as well, The Real Deal, telling the success stories of Saudis, a lot of them very young. And just listening to you there, what's so striking is just how fast everything is changing here and how maybe a norm of 10 years ago is no longer the norm today. So you've given me lots to think about, but I was thinking all the while, you told me about your 200 episodes. Has there been one that stood out for you as being the episode that you would love to do again, or the one that you've enjoyed the most?
I hate answering this question, Tom, but I'm not going to shy away from any question. I love how much I enjoyed getting Princess and Prince Abdulaziz on the show because they put me on the map. He, God bless him, came on episode 55. If it wasn't for him, I don't think Princess's team would have approved me. So every time I see him, I'm like, 'Thank you for putting me on the map.' He's like, 'You put yourself on the map. You put yourself in a position to succeed. Thank you.' So obviously the big HRH episodes have done so much for me, so much for the platform, and I love them to death. And then there's some episodes where, you know, I didn't anticipate that would have so much of a ripple effect. And then there's an episode where this gentleman by the name of Mo Gawdat, he's done so much out there and he's been on the biggest pods in the world multiple times. But when I have people that come up to me and say, 'My goodness, Mo, that was my favorite Mo Gawdat episode ever,' for me, I was like, 'It's funny you say that because for three hours, I don't remember saying a word. I was just sitting and, you know, watching the guy open up about life, about AI, about what's happening in the future, about things that just educated me on universal basic income, on weaponry, on things I never thought I'd talk about in my podcast.' So looking back to answer your question, the three hours I shot with Mo, that was not enough. He was someone that I'd love to get on the show again, one that resonated with my audience a lot and one that educated me in more ways than I can count.
