I think Saudi has the attention of the world in culture, in sports, in health, in things that the world never thought we would be leading in.
After 9/11, Saudi had to do this huge PR campaign to kind of build themselves. And I think that is even more important by voices like yours coming out into the North American market because people need to hear from you.
Find me a country that does entertainment the way we are doing it. Find me a country where their Ministry of Sports equivalent has hosted 200 global sports events in the last four and a half years.
If we're not evolving and changing, we're dying. So, it's not just supplements that you take. It is the media you consume. It's the people you surround yourself with. It's the rooms that you put yourself in. It's the energy that you exchange with somebody. And if that's not changing you, lifting you, challenging you, then what are you doing here?
Muhammad Islam, the Joe Rogan of the Middle East. Welcome to Biohacked. You know that's how I describe you, right? That's how I pitched you to everybody.
I mean, I think you're singing my praises far greater than they should be. I'll take it today. And honestly, thank you for having me on. I want to ask you, Curiosity Heals. Where did you get that from?
Oh, we're swapping podcasts. Curiosity Heals. So, I'll give you the short version. I got into health and wellness three years ago because my mom died of turbo cancer.
I'm so sorry to hear that.
And that grief, because I only had seven days between her dying, me burying her, and going back to work. The reason I am where I am today is because I was always curious. And so I went from building brands in luxury to building brands in health and wellness. And it was my curiosity to find answers that did not heal her that led me to building the agency into what it is today and starting Biohacked to have conversations, to ask people deep, meaningful questions where I could take that knowledge and go heal somebody else's family and help them find answers that I couldn't receive.
It's a beautiful era for us to be alive in, you know, where we can tap into information in any kind of niche subject you're looking for.
You know, I use the example of bird watching. If I wanted to figure out what kind of specific bird watching community is available in southern India, for example, or Pakistan, you know, that content may well be available online.
So, what a time to be alive.
I'll stop pretending to be the host.
No, no, you can be. Do you want to do a swap right now?
I was so inspired when I discovered your platform. I think it was about 18 months ago I came across your show and I just love the fact that you were Saudi-born and, you know, spent your time between Jeddah and the UK and were amplifying in English Saudi voices to the world. What inspired your journey?
Being misconstrued, living in the UK, in the US, and my friends over there and my extended circle being shocked that I'm from Saudi Arabia. Maybe the way I spoke, the way I look, the color of my eyes. There was a lot of, 'Really, are you from there?' And I'd say, 'Yeah, why?' 'Well, you know, we didn't expect people to look like that from where you are.' Or think like how you do. I mean, it came across as a bit judgy. Like, what did you expect us to look like? You know, there are people who live in Saudi Arabia and from Saudi Arabia who are far blonder than I am, who have colored eyes way more colorful than I am. So, I think us being misunderstood and misconstrued for the longest time may have given me that aha moment when watching Rogan, thinking that, you know, I've been patriotic all my life. Whenever I go back to school in the UK or the US, I'm taking Saudi jerseys with me and I'm giving it to all my dorm mates over there. One time I went back with 20 shawarmas and I gave each one and they loved it, you know. They were like, 'My God, your food is so tasty. Can you bring more?' Yeah. So, I think there was an opportunity to amplify that message in a way that just allowed me, more importantly, and I want to underline this, to be me.
Wasn't me at all. So the podcast has allowed me to come back to baseline with my true identity in a way that I would like to think serves my country, serves myself in allowing myself to be me and to have conversations with people that if it wasn't for the podcast I wouldn't be sitting in this chair today.
I love that Saudi has gone through such a huge transition under His Royal Highness MBS in the last five years. Being a Saudi, watching this momentum, how the country is evolving and changing, people are coming in, people are starting to move here, they're so inspired to live here. How has that journey been for you?
I see a little bit of myself in my country. Borderline failed every school I went to, written off, you know, is he really going to make anything of himself? In the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, Saudi was in the quiet zone, let's say. And then came 2015, 2016 when the vision was being worked on and MBS in 2017 became crown prince and the vision was born. Early days, people didn't understand it. We knew that the time for us to compete with the world is here. And as they say, it's always top down.
And fast forward to 2025, I think Saudi has the attention of the world in culture, in sports, in health, in things that the world never thought we would be leading in. Find me a country that does entertainment the way we are doing it, right? Find me a country where their Ministry of Sports equivalent has hosted 200 global sports events in the last four and a half years. Right? Culturally speaking, Ministry of Culture with what they're doing. It's almost unbelievable when you look at the cylinders that every ministry is firing on and how, okay, you know what, it's great to open up to the world and bring people here, but when they come here, what is there to do? That's another beast altogether. Right? So, to answer your question, what do I think when I look at it? I don't recognize my country. At the same time, I'm so proud of it and just how I sometimes don't recognize myself and I'm almost in denial that, wow, I may have built this platform that people are actually saying that, you know, this is something that is kind of amazing what you did. I sometimes forget about it. So, it's just a lot of emotions. I can tear up just thinking about how far the country has come. And I think we're just lucky to be alive in this era right now where whatever you're into, whatever you're good at, you will get the support of the country from the top.
Was it really difficult leaving something corporate, oil and gas, working in that and being like, 'I'm going to start a podcast in English coming out of the Middle East'? How did your wife feel about it?
She knew it was me. She knew that I had found my calling well before I started the first episode. I think the one thing that maybe not my wife but the people closest to me probably thought was how long is he going to do it for? A lot of people also thought, is he going to end up in jail, right? So there was that element of, you know, you can't just go start something and be very vocal about it. But I knew my mission. I knew that there was a gap in the market from the man on the street, the Joe Rogan, to talk about Saudi from that level where I'm at, you know, the foot soldiers of, let's say, the community. So I saw the gap in the market and I realized that if I am consistent in this, which I'm currently enjoying a few episodes in, this can potentially be a source of soft power for the kingdom because the government and the leadership will always have to maintain a tone in their messaging. They can say stuff like, 'Excuse me, WTA, you don't want to come to Saudi Arabia to have a tennis tournament for females because you're accusing us of not empowering females, but you not coming here is you in turn accusing us of something that we aren't doing.' So, I can say things like that. And I think that's where maybe the platform can really flex its need in culture and society, right?
How did you define your earlier voice versus who you are today? From the early episodes, from when you started the Mo Show to where your voice has gone today.
I had no confidence early episodes. So...
I can relate to that. I was the same when I first started. I was like, what am I doing?
What am I doing? I think one of my production guys the other day mentioned, and he joined us 10 episodes ago and he watched episode one and two, and he said he was shocked by just my body language alone. I was like this. I think maybe more importantly it made me a more confident person in life, maybe much to the dismay of some of the people who preferred me as a people-pleasing person, but I think boundaries is very important, right? Having thicker skin, getting comments like, 'Are you really Saudi? Why English? Speak in Arabic. You should be proud of your...' So I think those comments which I used to respond to back in the day, I don't check today. So if the podcast stopped today and I never did another episode, I'm a more confident person than I was five years ago.
But I don't want to stop today. I think there's so much more we can do in terms of getting the content out there, hosting people like Gary Brecka and Mark Hyman as we did an hour ago, where without this platform, I don't know which Saudi platform these guys would have gone on.
So there was a need for it. Right.
When I do these people's PR and marketing, right, and I was bringing them down here, I was like, man, it's really tough to find English-speaking platforms to put them on. They're not going to learn Arabic, right? So what am I going to do? So platforms like yours are so refreshing because they allow the North American audience to really get educated on a culture that Western media has spent decades just destroying and abolishing. So when they truly get to meet real, authentic Arabs and people from the Middle East, they're like, 'Wow, this is not what we were sold.' Refreshing. Let's hear their ideas. Let's hear how they speak. Let's see how progressive they are. And it allows people from North America to come on to platforms like yours and tell their story and what they've done to your audience.
So Gary Vee was an example of someone who, when I had him on a year ago exactly, I had a bit of a pinch-me moment, a bit of an 'oh my God' because I was thinking to myself that if we didn't create this, Gary wouldn't have been able to go on a platform where we can, for a change, own the narrative.
Right. And we had a short with Will Smith and Martin Lawrence. And at the end, Will was like, 'You do this full-time?' I was like, 'I've been doing it for five years.' He's like, 'This is an amazing thing you have going.' This is coming from Will Smith, right? Will Ahmed as well, the founder of WHOOP. That was, again, amazing to have people come to Saudi, experience it, and then reflect on the experience on the podcast. A lot of people still say, 'Why English? Why English?' And I say, I think can we drop the 'why English'? Can we maybe start exploring languages like French and Spanish to come out of Saudi so we can educate those markets who have been indoctrinated with false information thanks to Western media who never had our best interest at heart for whatever reason. You know, from 2001 onwards we were dubbed as terrorists. The thing is we couldn't be anything further away in terms of safety, security, the genuine niceness, the hospitality that runs through our blood is the complete opposite depiction of how we have been portrayed. So, you know what, it's almost like if it was true, I wouldn't be so passionate about it. But can you stop accusing us of something that we are absolutely not? And by virtue of the existence of this platform, I think we solve for that.
Have you seen the 9/11 documentary that Tucker Carlson just released?
I saw the trailers. I've been wanting to go.
I'm going to send it to you. It was so incredible because we for once saw somebody completely tell a transparent narrative about how Saudi was just pinned for something when it wasn't down to them. There were so many other factors including foreign governments, including the American CIA that was involved in what happened to American lives on American soil and how they turned a blind eye. And it was really refreshing because I'm like, for once we are not demonizing the Middle East for something that happened in our own country.
Thank you. I mean, two buildings fall, awful, awful tragedy, and everything turns to rubble, that somehow they found 15 of the 19 hijackers' passports. I don't think we're going to get political, but let's just, you know, let me just forward. But you know what's really frustrating is that people believe that. And I think now whenever there's a post on Instagram, I'm not going to tell you what I read in the comments, but it's all consistent.
Oh, absolutely. What's also crazy was when you watch the documentary, you'll see that 18 months prior to 9/11 actually taking place, the American CIA knew and they turned a blind eye, and they turned a blind eye because they had other vested interests. And just before we started the podcast, you and I spoke about, and I'll probably get shot for this, but I don't believe everybody necessarily needs democracy. There are incredible countries. You live in one in the Middle East that is a thriving, booming country, and there's not democracy.
Because not everybody's equipped for it.
It's interesting. I think it's a mental capacity, you know, type of thing. Mohammed Alabbar, Emaar CEO, said it recently. He said, 'Now, when you have a government that changes every four years, the amount of money that is being spent on campaigning, the amount of money that is being spent on things that are deterring you from building, constructing, improving.' And in that clip, there were images of his country, Dubai, and healthcare and construction and wellness and transportation. And I don't know, to be honest, like I arrived in JFK four months ago, four years ago was 2021, and just the drive, you know, coming out through Jamaica and on that highway. I was... maybe my eyes were trained to the Middle East. I was like, there's no way this is the Northeast I spent five of my years living in. Has it not changed or have my eyes been trained to actually get used to first world because this isn't it? Yeah. The amount of crime, the amount of corruption, the amount of just trash on the street. I'm like, that is what we consider a first-world country. And then I go to somewhere like Dubai and I'm so excited to be taking my team next week.
You can literally eat off the floor.
And I said, there they are demonizing us, calling this dictatorships and saying that we are not invested in our people, whereas these countries are thriving and people have great access to healthcare, great education, clean water. So much that goes into being in service to their people. And I think that is after 9/11, Saudi had to do this huge PR campaign to kind of build themselves. And I think that is even more important why voices like yours are coming out into the North American market because people need to hear from you. They need to hear how Saudi has changed and how you guys are so, so proud of your country and what you guys have accomplished.
You know what I realized entering the media world all of a sudden was a lot of people asked me, 'Mo, you got to go to the Ministry of Media and get this approved and that approved.' I was like, you know what, you're forgiven for thinking that I have to do that, but you'd be surprised how comfortable Saudi media world is in their own skin.
When I, if there was something a bit iffy that I thought my guest said, I sent it to them for proof. They're like, 'Mo, are you kidding me? Like, go for it.' We're not shaken by what others might perceive us to be.
It actually taught me to be a bit more confident in my messaging and the way I carry myself on air.
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When I was researching you, I saw one of your clips. You were describing how you got access to go to the royal court and what a big moment that for you that was.
