“Beautiful things are created in the darkest hours!” - Mo Islam

Don't do, don't do that. No, is it making you nervous? No, I just, I don't like being classified as a celebrity influencer. No, just, can I be a podcaster? Podcaster, fine. Famous podcaster.

We'll get into all of that. Thank you for the opportunity having me here. Thank you for everyone who's come, who've taken time out of their evenings to be with us, and we can make it a fun, engaging, informative story on how I started. I don't do many of these. I hate talking about myself, but when T approached and said, it's hard to say no to her. And if there's one thing I can take from this that can maybe help someone in their journey in whatever field that is, then nothing will make me happier than that. Let that be the objective of today, inshallah, to inspire the next.

Okay, so for the longest time, I knew that I had no problem public speaking. I was more maybe on the riskier side than somebody who would play it safe. I noticed it in my growing up years. I never did well in school. I never took it too seriously. I was always into football or rugby in the UK. For the relevance of me saying that, I wasn't good in school. Eventually, with time, it came around and me not getting good grades, not going to a good college in the US, and eventually maybe not getting the job that I wanted that I knew I was capable of. I just wasn't the classroom kind of person, you know, sit down and no, I'm looking outside the window, you know, I'd rather be out there and whatever that outside could be. And today, maybe that outside is the freedom of creativity in all its glory. I was always looking outside more than the teacher. So I joined the family business in the oil and gas sector in 2010, and I was there for 13 years. I think I was there for 13 years because I was too scared to leave. I was, um, I didn't have confidence in my abilities, especially in school when you're always in the lowest math grade, lowest whatever. It's condescending, right? And the really depressing part is that it's the same today in schools in England at least. I don't know how it is here. They categorize you based on intelligence, and that's a problem that doesn't do anything for a child's confidence. Definitely didn't do anything for my confidence. I grew up thinking I was an idiot. Uh, maybe I am, but um, eventually, so 13 years in corporate, uh, COVID 2020 hit, and we had about a month, uh, at home where we couldn't leave. Then I saw an episode of Rogan, and I knew I love to speak, and I knew I love my country, and I knew that there was, as Ali Shahabi in my last episode said, we have a communications problem for Saudi. Um, uh, so love my country, I knew I can speak, I knew I was on the risky side, uh, and I knew our country needed a voice from the street, a non-governmental voice from the street. So I said, why not? Again, my risky side came into play because within a week from saying, aha, Rogan, within a week I shot my first episode. That includes buying the equipment online, that includes speaking to my best friend Muhammad Mahir, telling him I want to launch a podcast. Can you be episode one? Yes. How did you know what to do? I did a masterclass in like 48 hours. I just submerged myself into it. You need to understand that I was very unhappy in the corporate job, working under a nice, working under what I can only describe as a psychopathic boss. So I, like I'm sure a lot of people relate. Move on. Um, so I believe beautiful things are created during the darkest hours. Um, you know, a little cheesy, but the beautiful flowers or meadows or greenery doesn't come unless there's rain and thunder and all that, right? So you have to go through darkness to, I guess, really realize, you know, what you're made of and how badly do you want it. Excuse me. So we shot our first episode. We thought it was great, fantastic. I went back to check out the footage, khalas, ready to publish it, and maybe Asma, who's in the second row, knows the story. Uh, our microphones was off.

I don't blame the masterclass. I blame myself. There's a lot to think about, but that was actually a relevant thing because I had a decision to make. Do I sell the equipment on Haraj and just say, you know what, we tried, it wasn't for me, or do I say this was a welcome to the industry moment? Now, are you going to die or are you going to, as we say, and give it another shot? Luckily, we took the second option. We shot the next day. This time the microphones were working, and episode one, it's actually episode two, is on YouTube today. And since then, we've produced 129 episodes, alhamdulillah. Um, the next one, which we're publishing in a few days, is with John Pagano, who heads Red Sea Global, and we've been fortunate enough to have conversations with people who we never thought we would. I'm going to stop talking for a second.

Good question. I never really thought of that. I still take it one episode at a time. I get asked by our sponsors, uh, can we get the schedule for January, February, March? I'm like, I barely know the schedule for December.

Yeah, I mean, and I don't know if this is the right way to operate or not. Maybe we should have a longer plan. Again, Asma in the second row and Stuck, they do our translation, and what a job they do. Um, they know that we work maybe two or three episodes at a time that are in post-production, and I don't know if that's good or not, but I know that it gives us more time to focus on the present. Going back to your question, I called up my second friend, MH. The first two were anonymous, so it was easy. The third one was Raz, who was Muhammad's sister. She climbed Everest, and maybe that was my first getting a name on the show. I think after Raz, I noticed how much I'm enjoying this, and I was like, wait, we really have a chance to show off what mainstream media ain't, but sure as hell isn't going to show about Saudi. They're not going to want to cover any good news about Saudi. And I saw what Rogan did in the US and how much his content, which is real coffee shop, if you will, conversation where we're not going to be interrupted, we're not going to go to the weather anytime soon, we're going to have real conversation on any subject. And I was like, this has an opportunity to be that. Uh, and it was only with time that I realized with consistency things get better and you find unity. But I would say episode three is when I thought that we have something here.

They kept saying that we really enjoy this, the conversation, your ability to allow us to speak, even though in the beginning I was speaking a lot. But I think with time, and this translated into my life, that I do a lot more listening than speaking. And the thing is, T, about that, that really helped me is like, like you now, okay, and you probably notice it in this conversation, you can go in with twenty, thirty questions, but nothing would be better than a question that comes from listening. And that more often than not, the questions that come from listening are the ones we put in the trailers, and the trailers are the highlights. And that happened in Princess Reema's episode. There was a question that was not on, uh, that came in conversation, and it was like a highlight. And that's an example that listening is more important than speaking sometimes.

Okay, two ways to approach this. I was reading Tim Ferriss' book, The 4-Hour Workweek, and he said, double down on your strengths, don't work on your weaknesses. And me being between the UK and US for twelve years, two things: my English got really good, the less of my Arabic got worse. But thirteen made my Arabic very good that I could maybe could have started a podcast in Arabic, but I didn't. Um, but in my twelve years between the US and the UK, I realized how misunderstood our country was. And September 11th, they look at me, Mo Islam, get a head tilt, you convert. So, um, I got a chance to see how misunderstood we were. So in school, in my friends, I felt like a duty. I felt like an ambassador to change, and that I did. I changed what they thought about Saudi. A couple of my friends in the UK to Saudi, same thing in the US. But now through decentralized media, I felt that we have an opportunity for me to amplify an area that was very familiar to me, which was to show people who we really are. Now, I could have started an Arabic podcast. I think I could have. Thirteen years in a corporate environment, my Arabic was at the level where I could have, but I would have been a blue hat in a sea of blue hats. I put a red hat on, pardon the analogy, but red in a sea of blue. And I don't know if Princess Reema can, if it was just Arabic, I don't know if Prince Abdulaziz can, if it was just Arabic. So the saying, escape competition through authenticity, came to mind. And, um, alhamdulillah, I think we created something unique that made us stand out a little bit.

Yeah, someone recently told me that, Mo, you caught the wave at the perfect time, and I agree. I think ten years ago, I'm not sure the content would have resonated as much with maybe the populace, or I don't think there would have been enough for me to talk about, to be honest with you. You know, you see the events, you see Vision 2030, you see how hard the Crown Prince works, you see how hard the Lusail works. We can't keep up with everything, but that's easier for me because now I have content to share, I have people to speak to, stories to tell. Ten years ago, of course, the country was working hard in so many areas, but not to the tempo we're seeing today. You know what I mean? I think the timing was crucial, and I'm very lucky to have started it. This was by chance, by the way. I didn't get the... I just, by complete coincidence, and it made my job easier to show the world what's happening here.

Thank you. And honestly, just to build on that point, you're right. John Pagano, Jerry Inzerillo, you have these non-Saudis who lead big government giga projects, and they call Saudi home. And we're very lucky to have had both of them on the show. Um, and another thing that, um, so Saudia is one of our partners, and what pulled them in, they're like, Mo, anything more than that, we want your content on our inflight entertainment system. Because you get these tourists that, you know, from as Saudi's opening new routes, uh, it's an opportunity for them to segue into Saudi via your content.

Did I answer your question, T? Why English? It was my USP. It was my unique selling proposition.

So some guests, and ironically, some guests we've had very little time to prepare. So Anas Bash was in town, and he called me. He's like, Mo, I told you when I'm in, we'll shoot. Would you be ready to shoot? I said, sure. What day this week? He's like, actually, in two hours if you can. I was like, Anas, that's just no time at all, but let's do it. Called the team, we prepared everything, had no time to overthink, we shot it, and I think it was like a top five episode for us. And there's something to say about the less time you have to prepare, the less you overthink. And we were just not even looking at notes. I was just going back and forth. You know, he's been doing this two or three years longer than I podcast, so yeah, I was picking his brain, and it was a great conversation. And some episodes where we had two or three months to prepare, too much time to overthink, and you put unnecessary pressure on yourself. But typically, um, you know, either they reach out. Alhamdulillah, we're in a position now where people want to come on the show. Um, my show manager would reach out to someone, um, either I choose or he recommends. We get on a call with them. It's very important to get on a call to feel each other out. Um, based on that, we prepare questions and talking points, which we send to them. They approve, remove whatever. And then on shooting day, we shoot, and I tell them in the beginning that nothing goes out without your creative consent or creative control. That makes them lean back in the seat a little bit more, maybe say something that they didn't think they were going to say, knowing that you have control over the creative side of it, um, puts them at ease. And, uh, alhamdulillah, we've never put out anything without the consent of the guest. Yes, there were a few episodes where I wanted something in, and I asked twice that the guest didn't want, and we had to honor it.

Yeah, yeah. You can't be new media with old media tendencies. I don't want to be known as the person who sensationalizes because then how am I better than CNN or BBC or any of these other... Do you know what I mean? I want to be the change that I want to see.

Exactly. I think because I don't come from a journalistic background, I'm not media trained, I've never taken a course on journalism, and I don't and I never want to. So when I speak to, when I ask Princess Reema, you know, what do you do after a long day? How do you unwind? She's never asked those questions. And I said this before, she's always asked about Saudi's foreign policy more often than not. So when she says, oh, she sat back, she's like, oh, like I could tell that she loved that question because she never got it. But she's like, sleep, you know, I just want to catch up on sleep.

Yeah, but I had to ask her what's her favorite movie and the significance of that, which is Princess Diaries. Um, the significance of that is that, uh, it's refreshing for them to speak to a, I'm going to say to a normal person that is not out there to sensationalize or, ah, I want to trap you into something that I can use as a headline.

Without an agenda, yeah. And by the way, not because we're on the same team, Mo. No, I'd be the same. I will always strive to be the same, even with the people who aren't Saudis or who don't have a vested interest in Saudi. And honestly, like I look at the top podcasters, and none of them are journalists, and there's something to be said about that, you know. So I learned from them.

In the short term, it's a very good question, by the way. It was not in the script. Sorry. In the short term, realism. In the long term, soft power. I want to be a source of soft power for Saudi Arabia. I want us to maybe one day be able to host people who, when they come on our platform, like big-time, say A-listers, that people from Saudi and the region can say, yeah, that's, you know, he's on a Saudi platform. That's crazy.

Yeah, and to have that person really enjoy, like when Gary Vee came on, he looked at me in the end when I gave him a hug, and he was like, you have a good thing going here. Keep it up. I was like, wow, that's validation from someone who doesn't have to validate me. You know, with Princess A, they're going to want to encourage me because, you know, it's all under the flag. You know, end of the day, we're all... But to come from Gary, he didn't have to say that, and that really gave me a boost of motivation.

Yeah, yeah. But I was very nervous in that episode, by the way. It was a very good episode, but because if I wasn't going to perform, he's not going to pat me on the back. The other two might pat me on the back, might even say, let's do it over. But with him, either you're good enough or you're not. Him, that was an example of one where I had two months to overthink. But alhamdulillah, he had a great time, and if he comes back again, I was told that he will be back on the show. So it wasn't a disaster.

No, everyone thinks that. It was shot in a building that wasn't finished yet on the 61st floor that we put together in three hours, and it was a workout.

Uh, consistency. You know, you just take it one episode at a time, and things fell into place. I had people that believed in the episode. I have somebody who's with me until today, and in early days, first year, he was with me. He did it all pro bono because he believed, and that's something that I'll never forget. Um, and only with time do you realize, you know, what's working, what's not working. You're obviously out of pocket for the first couple of years bootstrapping, and then you land that one first sponsor, and that's like, wow, you know, these people believe to the point where they're monetarily backing you. Um, so there was no long-term plan. It was just like, let's focus on getting one percent better. If we can get one percent better with every episode, then that's a great day.

It actually made a lot of people uncomfortable.

Because people, peers, your age group, family members, you know, you're in this box, and the moment you get out of this box, I think it reminds them of their insecurities, and it can tell you a lot about how they really feel about you. I mean, that's one of the disadvantages is that, you know, I got confirmation of who really wanted the best for me and who didn't. But at the end of the day, now I know. So it did make a lot of people uncomfortable because people want to see you do well, but not everyone wants to see you do better than them. Um, and there were some people who were very supportive, uh, yeah, but those that don't want you to do well are the biggest driver for you to keep going, right?

It was, but then I realized how much, bless you, um, it was for a while, but then I realized that it just was weighing too much on me, and I don't want to, I'm not out there to prove anyone wrong. I'm just trying to be better than I was yesterday. I really, in the beginning, I was comparing myself to this and that, but I think this is a great lesson for life: compare yourself to who you were yesterday. Are you a better human today than you were yesterday? If not, then let's try doing that for tomorrow. Uh, and that's what I learned. And another thing is actually how many people would, um, you're introduced to loneliness when you're working on your craft. When you're working on the thing, you find that you have a lot of time alone, and that is an adjustment. There are people nodding in the... yeah, yeah. When you're working on your craft, all of a sudden you're not, you know, one of the people. You're the sheep, the black sheep that got away, and that comes with a lot of mental taxation. Uh, and a lot of people spend time in between where they haven't really made it yet. They're different to their peers, and that's a very difficult zone that I had, that I'm currently negotiating myself.

Repetition and experience. The first five minutes of Princess Reema's episode, I almost passed out.

Because you only have one shot at making a first impression, and this has to go well. You know, I don't want to go back to the psychotic boss. It has to go well. And it's Princess Reema, and she gave me her time. It cannot be anything short of amazing. But after five minutes, maybe less, I realized what kind of a person she was, and she made me so comfortable. And that was the episode, not to take anything away from Prince Abdulaziz, I'll talk about him in a second, but that was the episode where I was like, okay, I think I can do this full-time now because of what happened after Princess's episode.

Absolutely, definitely. Um, with Prince Abdulaziz, it was a really, really sweet guy anyway. Seven, eight people from his team came an hour before. When he came, went outside, shook his hand, thanked him for coming to my house. And he said, this is your house? I said, yeah. And, you know, I'm so sorry. I tried to tell your team that we should shoot where it's more convenient for you. He's like... I was like, oh my God, you're going to make me cry now, you know. And when we got them downstairs in my basement, that's the studio, uh, they left us alone. No one was there. He had an iPad with maybe prepared answers. I'm guessing they're prepared answers. They do this. He shut the iPad, put it aside, and he said, Mo, we're just going to have a conversation. I was a bit nervous. I was like, about what? Oh, oh, oh, why are you here again? What, you know, I was like, okay, okay, that's amazing. But he wanted to have a real organic conversation without any, you know, written answers or bullet points, and that's exactly what he did. And then he gave me a second time where he gave me a bit of his time, but I owe him a lot.

Because I am like really like on it, like it has to work. I say the harder episodes are the ones who come with less of a following. You know, it's like, you know what, Hal are going to be on it, but it's the ones that you're worried about, you know, it's that could steal, you know, a gamer. Those are because you're not psyched up for those games. I noticed that, and I really work hard on myself that irrespective of who the guest is, treat everyone like a Princess Reema, treat everyone like a Prince Abdulaziz for the sake of the product getting better. Give everyone the same value.

If I see myself not being me, I will apologize to the guest. Let's shoot again. I was having an off day. I don't know who that person was. So I really, really, really want to be myself.

I'm not an actor. I don't put on this front. I know speaking in English now, maybe, or in the podcast, it's not everyone's cup of tea. You know, it's ayab, but I have a mission that I really wanted to go at, and this is who I am. Fortunately, I think in English, Arabic is much improved. So the only reason why I started this was because I operate in English.

Oh, no, it's a bit of both. Yeah, yeah, it's a bit of both. I know that we're growing when I get people, I don't know if they're Saudi, but let's say from the region, who are losing their minds and know, why are you doing it in English? Like, they really get upset. So if you're going to take that, obviously at the same time, it's going to be offset with people saying, thank you, alhamdulillah. With time, there are less people who are saying, why is it in English? They're starting to realize, okay, you know what, the country is a bit misunderstood, so maybe we need a few more of these. Maybe we need a few more in different languages, in Spanish. I think Spanish is the third most spoken language. Arabic is five or six. Um, but why English? I have an answer that is always prepared, that 1.8 billion people speak English and 400 million speak Arabic. You're really speaking to a bigger audience. And like we said earlier, it's going in the direction of where the country wants to be, right? We're not, let's say, opening up to the world, but we're offering so much more. And for us to attract the talent, the investments, the growth, we need to speak the same language.

It must be the one-on-one. No crowd. You can say, sorry, we have a crowd today. You can, not used to it. Um, it's almost like a soft interrogation or what's in church when they go and they admit something. What's it called?

Confession. Than I've never done it. It's kind of like a confession when someone goes on a podcast. You're like, oh, what are they going to say? You know, I know there's rumors that is going with... so people are going to watch that so much because he's going to be asked questions that he hasn't really asked. So that's, you know, it's an opportunity to tell your side of the story without being interrupted. You know, without, I think that's what made it fly, that it's one-on-one. It's almost like you're eavesdropping on a private conversation that's happening in a coffee shop.

Yeah, yeah. I want to know what he's talking about because it's one-on-one, right? It is, it is. For the moment, it's one-on-two. Who is it, Naval, that said the smaller the group, the better the conversation? Yeah, I always say three is the crowd.

I don't do well with industry-related questions, really. Like, I should know more about what's happening in the industry. I know that the numbers in Saudi are growing so much. When I started, there were forty-six Arabic podcasters. Today, it's over two hundred. I know that, maybe more. Um, I will quote what Tim Ferriss said, one of my mentors, and he was asking, you know, how late in the game are we in this? And two years ago, he said, we're still very, very, very early days because mainstream, bicho, it'll still live, but people aren't being attracted to it as they are to long-form conversations with podcasts. And now it's funny because you see some of these big corporate media names, not to mention any, even though I did a few minutes ago, they started their own. You know, they'll put the headphones on and, you know, mics and branded to give it that feel, to make it look real. He said that we're very, very early in the game. He also said that if you pass episode six, there's a stat, you have made it to where eighty percent of podcasters never made. So there's a huge, as he says, graveyard of six episodes or less. And I look around, I see so many shows, you know, in the teens and close to one hundred. Um, the amount of people that reach out to us that say they want to start a show is so high to the point that we're starting an incubator where, you know, if you have a show, you have an idea, come, we'll shoot the first ten episodes for you. Um, you know, we'll edit, we'll translate if needed, we'll chop it up for, you know, social media format in return for equity in your show a little bit, you know, because people have an idea.

People have an idea, although they don't have experience and maybe they don't have the funding. So I think that's nice for us to come in and help teach people what we have picked up because you're only as good as how you can help the people around you.

Do you know what I mean? Like, obviously, it's in return, we'll be partners with you forever. Um, but it's something that I'm very serious about to kick off in Q1. Like, it means so...

It hasn't started. We just moved into our new studios in Jeddah, and the Mo Show is there. But there's a reason why we took a big space, one hundred twenty square meters, because we want to dedicate an area for the incubator. Um, and honestly, like, that excites me as much as the Mo Show.