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Jay Bhattacharya
Director (18th Director of NIH), National Institutes of Health

The Secret to the Rise of the Socialists | Episode 347

📅 Oct 18, 2026 The Vince Report 62 MIN 66 SEGMENTS · 7 SPEAKERS
Democrats wrestle with a growing socialist wing; the Senate heads into its five-week August break without passing the SAVE America Act; Todd Blanche finally clears the Senate; and America’s college-debt crisis gets even harder to ignore; director of the National Institutes of Health, Jay Bhattacharya joins the show! Watch VINCE Live on Rumble - Mon-Fri 8AM ET ⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠https://rumble.com/vince Sponsors: Helix Sleep - https://helixsleep.com/vince Quince - https://quince.com/vince ChefIQ - https://chefman.com - code: vince Bon Charge - https://boncharge.com - code: vince Democrats no longer...

What Jay Bhattacharya said

Written from the verified transcript and checked against it. Every figure links to the moment it was said.

Jay Bhattacharya, Director of the NIH, criticized former officials like Anthony Fauci for privately discussing potential harms of the COVID vaccine for pregnant women while publicly exuding unwarranted confidence. He argued the Biden administration suppressed scientific debate through censorship, which he said was antithetical to science. Bhattacharya detailed his role in a new Trump administration policy banning federal funding for gain-of-function research, requiring scientists to assess catastrophic risk before experiments. He described a hostile CBS interview with Margaret Brennan, where he was accused of spreading misinformation linked to a CDC shooting, which he called unhinged. He discussed the new executive order on vaccine scheduling, emphasizing parental autonomy and respect, and noted that European countries with non-mandatory childhood vaccines have higher uptake rates. He also mentioned the NIH's Autism Data Science Initiative, funding 12 teams to investigate rising autism rates.

Key takeaways

  1. Bhattacharya said the Biden administration's censorship of scientific debate on COVID vaccines was irresponsible and antithetical to science.
  2. He called Margaret Brennan's accusation that he spread misinformation linked to a CDC shooting 'unhinged'.
  3. The NIH has funded 12 teams under the Autism Data Science Initiative to investigate rising autism rates.

Numbers and commitments

FigureWhat it refers toTypeAt
January 2021 When Fauci's private texts about vaccine miscarriage risk were sent timeline 31:00
12 Major teams funded by the Autism Data Science Initiative metric 46:07

Chapters

  1. 0:00Criticism of COVID vaccine communication
  2. 33:24Censorship by Biden administration
  3. 35:04NIH leadership and Stockholm syndrome
  4. 37:47Ban on gain-of-function research
  5. 39:52Fauci's loophole in research funding
  6. 41:56CBS interview with Margaret Brennan
  7. 44:34Philosophy of academic freedom at NIH
  8. 46:07Executive order on vaccine schedule
  9. 48:35Hepatitis B vaccine and one-size-fits-all approach
  10. 49:36Pressure on pediatricians

Questions asked in this interview

9
  1. 30:34What do you make of this?
  2. 34:49What have you found and what have you had to deal with?
  3. 36:06In other words, like there's a lot of good people there, you say... syndrome?
  4. 37:08What can you tell me about that?
  5. 39:31Wasn't he like using some sort of creative definition for gain-of-function in order to justify how he was getting away with this?
  6. 41:17What was that like sitting there as you're listening to, like you're being accused of murder, and meanwhile you're thinking to yourself, wait a second, misinformation?
  7. 45:49Can you tell us what the decision was yesterday and what led to that?
  8. 48:10Does that strike you as real?
  9. 49:11Are pediatricians under some sort of immense pressure to jab these kids a thousand times, or are they going to be liberated to use actual science now?
Vince 0:00 ↗
Hey everybody, welcome to Vince on a Tuesday. It's so good to see everyone. I'm back. Yes, tan, rested, and ready after a nice vacation. I'll tell you all about it in just a moment. Great to see you though. You're the best audience anywhere and I'm glad to see you back here again with me. Appreciate everybody who was pinch-hitting for me during my time off, to include the great Hy Karania and Sean Ferish. God bless them for that. Thank you very much, guys. Appreciate you. What a great team to work with here at the Silver Lock operation. Appreciate those guys.
Uh, we will discuss a lot today. What happened while I was gone. We've got updates on the Save America Act. Of course, we always have to touch on that. And then what's going on with these socialists, you know, and the craziness that's behind their movement. Of course, there's a lot of infighting going on on the left, but who's voting for the craziest possible Democrats? I've got some details, some data that we're going to dive into. And also speaking of data, did you see these numbers that just came out about the COVID jabs leading to a whole bunch of unborn children being aborted in utero? Terrific data. We're going to talk to Jay Bhattacharya coming up with the Trump administration. We'll get his reaction to that and so much more all ahead on this edition of Vince.
Thank you for being here. Want to thank one of our great sponsors as we start today. In fact, this sponsor has been helping me big time adjust to my jet lag, which I need help with. Helix mattress. We love Helix. During the warmer months, you really start paying attention to your sleep quality, don't you? And one of the best changes I've made has been switching to a Helix mattress. We sleep on the Midnight Lux. We love our Midnight Lux. It's made a noticeable difference in how well Allison and I can rest each night. And before making that switch, you know, I was waking up multiple times at night, feeling uncomfortable. I'd often start the day feeling tired, not fully recharged. And since getting my Helix mattress, I fall asleep faster. I wake up feeling better, much more refreshed, ready for the day ahead. And we took their sleep quiz online, which is what you should do. You answer a few questions about your sleep habits and your preferences. And then you get matched with a mattress designed specifically for your needs. Plus, Helix ships free right to your door and includes a 120-night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty. How great is that? And now Helix is offering 20% off sitewide. All you have to do is go to helixsleep.com/vince. 20% off sitewide. That's helixsleep.com/vince. 20% off sitewide. helixsleep.com/vince. Kaboom.
Yeah, indeed. So, aloha first and foremost. Um, I did go to Hawaii. That's where we went. We went to Hawaii. Uh, and the reason for that is it's Hawaii. How cool is Hawaii? Uh, but actually the motivating factor for us to go to Oahu is the fact that I lived there as a kid. For those of you who've been with me for a while, you'll know that my father's a Marine, Marine General. Uh, retired after 36 years in the United States Marine Corps. Uh, and one of his duty stations during his time in the Corps was the Kaneohe Marine Corps Base, Marine Corps Base Hawaii. And so as a kid, I lived there for three years on Oahu. But up until this moment in my life, I've never been able to share it with my wife and my daughter. And so I said, "Why don't we go to Hawaii?" So I took them and we spent a week there. And in addition to seeing some of the touristy things, of course, we were there on Waikiki Beach. It was all very wonderful in that way. Uh, but I got to take my wife and my child around to places that meant a lot to me in my childhood that up until this point they haven't been able to see. So we went to the town of Kailua, Kailua, which is on the eastern side of Oahu. Um, and that's where my school, my middle school was, Kailua Intermediate, for those of you who are familiar with the area, was where I went to middle school. So, I brought my wife and my daughter. We got to see that. And I took them around town, showed them these various places that I got to hang out as a kid. Uh, it was wonderful. And then of course I showed them the, you know, the regular awesome stuff that I was very well aware of in Oahu because when we would have family members come to visit us, I'd take them to all these various locations. So now I got to take my wife and my daughter there, including Sea Life Park. And we took them, I took them hiking on Diamond Head, which was great. My wife and daughter, by the way, are in much better shape than I am, so they handled Diamond Head even easier than I did. Uh, but it was wonderful. And then, uh, you know, we did a whole bunch, Polynesian Cultural Center, uh, and the Dole Pineapple Plantation. And by the way, in the midst of all of this, we ran into great viewers and listeners of this program. And thank you. It was funny, including I saw one gentleman who I had met in Virginia, uh, who was there at the Dole Pineapple Plantation. I'm walking out the door after we got a chance to tour the pineapple maze and we were eating Dole Whip. I'm walking out the door and this guy goes, "Vince." And I go, "Yeah." And he goes, "Hey, I met you in Virginia." I go, "Well, we've come a long way to meet again. It was great. It was super great." Anyway, really nice to see everybody. What a wonderful time. Uh, and a great experience. And the big, I would say the big highlight of the week though, in addition to getting to share all of that with my family, was, um, we got to take a really nice trip to the USS Arizona. Now, if you ever go to Oahu, I'm telling you, this is a must-stop to see this grave site for well over a thousand men who died, perished on that day in December 7th of 1941 in Pearl Harbor. You've got to check this out. You have to go. You have to see it. Uh, and because it just helps you really appreciate the value of our American history and the sacrifices that so many have made to keep this great country going, including the men who perished aboard that ship. And you know, one of the, I'll talk about this maybe in more depth today on the big national radio show, but just to give you kind of a quick summary here. Um, I had the privilege, I brought my wife and my daughter with me. Of course, we had the privilege of joining a small group from the Hawaii Department of Transportation. We took a little tour boat with them that was arranged by the Navy.
And we got on this little tour boat and right after we essentially did like kind of a small museum tour that they have there. We get on the tour boat, they took us around all of the various sites inside of Pearl Harbor along Battleship Row to see each of the different spots and kind of talk about them in some depth, which was nice. Just some remarkable stories. If you haven't really stared at all of the specific details about Pearl Harbor, I encourage you to do that. But here's one that really stands out to me. You know, the USS Nevada was struck. This battleship was struck by the Japanese alongside the rest of these ships that were docked in Pearl Harbor. And they tried to basically get the Nevada out of the harbor. The Nevada was already struck. They had already hit it with this torpedo. And they basically got the ship underway and they were heading out of the harbor. And as the Japanese see that this battleship is on the move, they begin concentrating all of their firepower on the Nevada for a reason. They're trying to use it to block the exit path for the harbor. And if they did that, if they blocked the channel, the US ships would have been absolutely stuck. The ability to get ships in and out of Pearl Harbor would have been destroyed entirely. So the captain of the Nevada runs the entire ship aground intentionally, which was a heroic and quick-thinking decision because it meant that we could actually keep moving the entirety of the United States Navy that was concentrated there in Pearl Harbor. Just so many amazing stories of heroism that day. And of course, then we get to the USS Arizona. We stopped there and one of the wonderful things for me was having my daughter and my wife, but my daughter especially, as I raise her to be able to contemplate that we were standing over a grave site. You know, when you stand at the USS Arizona, it's just a little memorial building that stands over the top of the wreckage of the ship, which you can still see below the waterline. For those of you who've been there, you know all about this, but just so people understand what this is. And there are thousands of men underwater still inside that grave. And in fact, as people have died through the years who were survivors of the USS Arizona, many of them, their families have actually entombed their bodies inside of the Arizona. And so we're standing there and I think this is very, I can tell my daughter is very affected by it. But one of the most amazing things about the Arizona to this very day is that the oil, the fuel that was within the ship when the ship went down, they were maxed out. They had about every last drop of fuel inside of that ship that they could possibly have, was about 1.5 million gallons of fuel inside of the ship itself. And so when the ship goes down, the fuel that's within it, you know, the Navy had to make a decision with that wreckage. Do we go in and do we drain the fuel or is that effort too risky? Are we going to cause an ecological disaster? And the Navy realized the latter is probably true. We can't drain it. If we attempt to, we may release 1.5 million gallons of fuel into the water here in Pearl Harbor. So instead, they made a calculated decision.
The fuel is going to continue to leak slowly for many years. In fact, each day the USS Arizona leaks about a gallon of fuel. A gallon. So, at the memorial, you will see a fuel sheen, an oil sheen right at the top of the water, a small one, but noticeable. Every day that you go to the USS Arizona, they call it the tears of the Arizona. And it was visible that day when we went, it was last week, Tuesday. And my wife, my daughter, we got to see this again. And I had seen it many times before as a child, but now as an adult looking at this and boy, I tell you what, what an emotionally resonant experience. And God bless the souls of the men who are aboard that ship. God bless everybody who has served in the United States military and especially those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. Thank you for your service to this country. Uh, we really value you. We really value you and anyway it was an amazing thing. So I hope that's, I hope that wasn't too tedious for you. I just wanted to give you, I really wanted to take you inside. Hawaii is a nice trip and I did say to my wife, I was like, should I tell the audience I went to Hawaii? I feel so decadent to say I went to Hawaii. She's like, yes, everybody wants to know. Tell them what you were up to. I was like, okay, fine, I'll tell you. And it was really nice and thank you to the Navy for putting us on that boat and giving us that experience. That was a really, really valuable one and it means the world to me that I could share that with my daughter. So thank you for that and thank you American flags in the chat. We got so many great American flags in the chat.
Yeah, I do have some jet lag. Ah, Pinto asked, it's a six-hour time difference in Hawaii. So it's been, let's just say it's been utter chaos trying to figure out the sleep schedule, but we're here. I'm feeling good. I've got my blackout coffee. I feel very good. All right, let's dive into the things that happened while I was away. I apparently, there was some sort of like $20 burrito debate while I was gone. That was, I was kind of paying attention to. I was like, what the hell's going on? There's a $20 burrito debate. You want my quick and dirty on that? Affordability really matters and every single person should be encouraged to work as hard as they possibly can for their own success. Both of those things really matter. I know that doesn't make anybody happy, but I actually take both positions, which is that like, hey, America's leaders should work really hard to make life affordable, usually by getting the government out of the way. And meanwhile, nobody should be told that it's impossible for them to succeed. America is a story of people succeeding against all odds. And so you should work your ass off to do that. I actually take in that sense, I take kind of both positions here. You know, we shouldn't, the government shouldn't be driving up costs by like, let's see, how did Joe Biden do that? By printing trillions of dollars we didn't have. And meanwhile, young people should be working their tails off to succeed for themselves and for their families. That's just true. These are just true things. I don't know why this is some big controversial thing. And no, I don't think it's a great thing that burritos can run $20. That's crazy to me, a $20 burrito. So, there's the quick and dirty on that.
Um, also, the Senate adjourned this past week and they didn't pass the Save America Act. Oh, what a shock. I go away for two seconds and then they don't pass the Save America Act. Now I feel guilty about going on recess. Now of course this was something of a fait accompli. You know, these guys were always, you know, destined it seems to take a recess without actually doing what we wanted. The Senate has been driving all of us crazy all year long. But here they are, the Senate adjourning by voice vote. Cut one. Watch.
Senate Presiding Officer 13:15 ↗
I move to adjourn pursuant to the previous order. The question is on the motion. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed say no. No. The ayes have it. The motion is agreed to.
Vince 13:29 ↗
The ayes have it. The ayes have it. And so a voice vote. Now, what's unusual about that, insofar as anything was unusual there, is that a voice vote took place at all. Usually that recess happens by unanimous consent, and nobody is there to voice their opposition to it. That happened. That actually happened this time because Mike Lee and a couple of other senators raised their voices in opposition. Now, that didn't sound, I don't know about you, but that to me did not sound like what was the number, like two dozen people or whatever it was supposed to be. It didn't feel like the full strength of the people who claimed that they were going to fight for us. But Mike Lee was among them and he said, "Look, this is the first time in decades where anything like this has even happened." Cut two. Watch this.
Mike Lee 14:18 ↗
Okay, so it's about 5:00 a.m. and we just wrapped up in the Senate. A long night of voting. We got Todd Blanche confirmed as the attorney general. That's a good thing. We got the government funded through December 11th, and that's a good thing. Along the lines of the White House priority. And tragically, the Save America vote on the voter ID component failed. Not a single Democrat joined us. We're going to have to keep fighting on that one. We're not done. We're just getting started. We had the voice vote on adjournment and it failed. They outvoted us. That was the first time, as far as I'm aware, in decades when any vote has been held on any significant recess or adjournment. And I hope to have more of those in the future. I don't know what else to say other than thanks to all those who encouraged us to keep going, to keep fighting. We did our best. Left no stone unturned. I wish the outcome had been different both as to German and as to these votes. But this fight's not over. We're just getting started.
Vince 15:33 ↗
Look, I don't know about you, that video drives me a little crazy. It drives me a little crazy. And here's why. It's because like, you know, it just bums me out. It bums me out. And, you know, he says we're just getting started. Now, in fairness to Mike Lee, he's right. This is a part of a process. One way or another, we're getting what we want. If we don't get what we want, the country collapses. So, here are your options. One way or another, you get election integrity or you don't and the whole thing collapses. Do you understand the stakes here? And so when he says we're just getting started, he's right about that. Now, it's frustrating that it's not done yet. It's frustrating they're on vacation. It's frustrating that he was one of just a handful of voices to vote opposition to going into recess. But what are our choices here? Either we get this done or we are done for.
Again, I've said it not just today, but I've said it before. American history is full of stories of Americans succeeding against all odds. And right now the odds are stacked against us in the United States Senate. And not just because every Democrat opposes election integrity. It's because we have a bunch of lame-ass Republicans who oppose it too for whatever reason, including laziness. But we have to get this done and we have to fire the people who are standing in our way. So yeah. No, we're just getting started. But boy, that's very frustrating. It's hard to sound like Mike Lee in the midst of all of this. Now, the Senate, it's on vacation, but it ain't on actual recess. Do you understand what's going on with the recess, right? It's a pro forma session yet again. You want to see how crazy this is? Look at what Chad Pergram has summarized. Chad, Senate pro forma schedule through mid-September. Every three to four days, they gavel in. 10:00 a.m. yesterday, 8:00 a.m. this Thursday, 1:30 p.m. next Monday, 11:30 a.m. the following Thursday, then Monday, then Thursday, then Monday, then Tuesday, then Friday, then Tuesday, then Thursday. They just boom, boom, boom. They just gavel in. They just keep gaveling. That's all they do. They don't do the job of the American people. They gavel. And why do they do that? Why do they bang a gavel when they're supposed to be on vacation? Kind of seems inconvenient that a United States senator has to show up and bang a gavel. What is that about? The answer to that, quite unfortunately, is that the Republicans who run Congress are staying in pro forma session to prevent the president of the United States from having recess appointment power. If there's a better explanation for this, I've never heard one. The answer is only to preclude the president of the United States from having his recess appointment power. Now you explain to me how this makes it so that you're upholding the agenda of the American people.
Now, look, I get it. They finally confirmed Todd Blanche. Great. But there's all sorts of people the president of the United States could put into place immediately if he had recess appointment power. And the Republican Congress is denying him. That would be both Mike Johnson and John Thune. This is a joint conversation between the House and the Senate and they're in pro forma session. This is gross. The whole thing is so gross. They're in that August recess, you know, because they earned vacation. So crazy. It's so crazy to me. Now Todd Blanche is in place, which is good news. He's basically still in place. The only thing that really changed is his title. He went from acting attorney general to full-time attorney general. But now that he's got the job and now that he doesn't have Tillis and John Cornyn and bitter Bill Cassidy standing in his way, what is he going to do with it? Let me explore that in just a moment with you because there are some very good options on the table. Very good options on the table for the newly minted full-time attorney general of the United States. It's all ahead on this edition of Vince.
Let me thank the fine people at Quince for supporting the program. You know, it is August. As I said, August is the perfect time to reset before the autumn rush begins. And honestly, can't think of a better place to start than the closet. That's why I love shopping at Quince. Quince is all about fewer, better pieces. Their clothes are made with premium materials built to last, designed to become the items you reach for day after day. And best of all, best of all, with Quince, everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories. They cut out the middlemen and they make great clothing. Every time I go to pick something out, I'm thinking that Quince looks really good. I'm going to wear my Quince again. Love Quince. Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/vince. Get free shipping on your order. 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too, if that's what you're into, as well as the UK if that's your thing. That's quince.com/vince. quince.com. Thank you to Quince for being fantastic.
All right, so now we got Todd Blanche. He's an attorney general. Congrats, Todd. You earned it, brother. Appreciate you being there. He's done good work in that capacity. Now, what could he do with the job? Well, how about this? What if he prosecuted Anthony Fauci? Anthony Fauci was just referred this past week to the United States Department of Justice for contempt of Congress. He's been held in contempt of Congress by the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, voted to hold him in contempt of Congress and they referred him for criminal prosecution now because Anthony Fauci has been obstructing a lawful, legitimate constitutional congressional investigation. Let's prosecute him. Let's go for it. Let's test it. This is a big opportunity for Todd Blanche to begin righting at least some of the wrongs. Although in fairness to the Justice Department, they've already prosecuted Anthony Fauci's top lieutenant. But why don't we go for the little dog, the diminutive big dog, Anthony Fauci. Go after that guy. Boy, does he deserve it. How about going after him? That would be a useful act as the attorney general of the United States.
And in fact, the evidence against Anthony Fauci is only growing. Did you see this news about Anthony? And we'll get to this coming up with our great guest, Jay Bhattacharya, is going to join us here in a few minutes. You see this horrific news that Anthony Fauci, this is not shocking, but it is appalling. Anthony Fauci knew that babies were getting slaughtered by the COVID jab, but he refused to tell the public. We know this thanks to Senator Ron Johnson and Senator Rand Paul who just got a hold of these text messages and shared them with the public. Dr. Fauci was so concerned in January 2021 that the second dose of the COVID shot, quote, "theoretically could be associated with miscarriage in the first trimester." Senator Rand Paul and I released the texts between Fauci, Rochelle Walensky, and Vivek Murthy below. While I've been conducting oversight for years, now that we have the documents in Fauci's government-issued phone, my investigation has only just begun. And here's the message from Fauci. He says, quote, "I asked around a bit more and another issue came up that you need to be aware of since many people have significant cytokine storm and fever after the second dose. This theoretically could be associated with miscarriage in the first trimester." Now, he says this January 25th, 2021. This is when Joe Biden is president of the United States. Anthony Fauci is his top co-stooge. And he's admitting privately. He's like, "Guys, I think we could be killing kids at scale here." And yet he never said anything about this in public, not a word about this. In fact, Vivek Murthy said the same thing. Vivek Murthy was the surgeon general under Biden. And here's what he said in private. Bill Melugin captures these text messages in which he says, "This is really helpful. Thanks. I've been hearing the concern about the mRNA causing mutations in the developing fetus as well. That's a really good point regarding the cytokine storm post-second dose." And then another one, "Tony, Rochelle, did you see this announcement today from the WHO saying they advise against pregnant women taking the mRNA vaccine because of lack of data? It has led to a flurry of questions. What is your take? I imagine we will all get asked about this." So now, if this was actual science, they would be having this conversation in public. They'd be saying what they know, what they don't know, what the weaknesses are, what the risks are.
You notice, by the way, just to take you back in time, that every other drug on the market that's advertised in the free market, like you see a television ad, it includes a never-ending series of side effects. "Side effects include" and then they give you a sing-song voice where they tell you all these awful things that could happen to you. You notice that the COVID jab never had that. In fact, your tax dollars were used to advertise the COVID jab without any side effects being disclosed. Do you remember all of this? And then of course the big COVID jab companies were all given immunity from any sort of litigation. The whole thing was one gigantic, corrupt, and totally atypical scheme. And these guys are hiding data about the deaths of children. In fact, the data is really shocking because not only were they hiding the fact that these children were at risk, inside of the data, we find out, Katie Pavlich has this, that the miscarriage rates were catastrophic for women in their first trimester. For the babies that the women are miscarrying, the babies are dying. Here's what Katie Pavlich writes: The mandated and doctor-recommended COVID-19 shot for pregnant women was effectively an abortion shot. According to new documents just released by Senators Johnson and Paul, the authors claimed a miscarriage rate of 12.6%, but the raw data revealed an 82% miscarriage rate in women who were vaccinated during the first trimester. This is consistent with the 81% miscarriage rate noted in the Pfizer 5.3.6 post-market data. These figures mirror the effects of chemical abortion drugs such as RU-486.
You know what were the officials saying about this? Were they admitting the risk here? Were they saying, "Hey, look, there are things we don't know. Maybe you should be cautious." Or were they telling every pregnant woman to get the jab no matter what? Well, I don't know. Here's Rochelle Walensky. This is Vigilant Fox pulling this clip. And this also looks like it's from Real America's Voice in the War Room pulling this. Thank you to all of them for referencing this. Here's the clip of Rochelle Walensky and what she had to say in September of 2021.
Interviewer 26:53 ↗
Is it safe to get vaccinated while you're breastfeeding?
Rochelle Walensky 26:57 ↗
It absolutely is safe to get vaccinated. So, I would say if you are thinking about getting vaccinated, there is no bad time to get vaccinated. Get vaccinated while you're thinking about having a baby, before you're thinking about having a baby, while you're pregnant with your baby, or after you've delivered your baby. There is no bad time.
Vince 27:16 ↗
"There's no bad time to murder your child" was the message from the Biden administration, but they wouldn't acknowledge that that's what was actually happening. More in a moment with Vivek M— excuse me, with our great guest, Jay Bhattacharya. Vivek boy, can you imagine if we had him on? Jay Bhattacharya is going to join us here in a moment. We'll talk to him about all of this, including his crazy exchange with Margaret Brennan this weekend. It's all too much. It's all ahead on this edition of Vince. Good to have you with us as always.
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Also want to thank Bone Charge for their great support and enduring support of our program. We love these guys. Bone Charge. I love the infrared sauna blanket and Allison loves the red light face mask. Ever since they sent them to us, we can't recommend them enough. The sauna blanket, it's great. It helps with muscle recovery, detoxification, total game changer. It's very easy to use. I just wrap myself up in it, let the infrared heat work its magic. It's created a huge difference in how I relax and how rejuvenated I feel afterward. Allison loves the red light face mask because it improves your skin's texture and reduces inflammation. She has seen fantastic results. She puts this thing on every day. She loves it. Red light therapy is awesome. She loves this thing. It's like having a mini spa treatment right at home. If you're thinking about trying these things out, you're in luck. Head to bonecharge.com. bonecharge.com. Use the code Vince to get 15% off. Both of these products have made a huge impact on our wellness. I think you're going to love them too. Use the code Vince. bonecharge.com. Save 15%. These statements and products have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or condition.
All right, let me welcome to the program now the great Jay Bhattacharya. He's the director of the National Institutes of Health, former interim CDC director. The guy has done it all and he was right about COVID quite famously, which is why the Biden administration spent so much time trying to censor him. As always, Jay, great to have you back on the show, sir. Thank you.
Jay Bhattacharya 30:32 ↗
Nice to see you back, Vince.
Vince 30:34 ↗
Okay, let me start with what I was just talking about, this data that shows that the COVID jab in the first trimester apparently had devastating effects on unborn children and yet this data somehow it was entirely kept from us and Anthony Fauci and all these other people, they knew about it, they were talking amongst themselves about it, but they refused to acknowledge it to the public. What do you make of this?
Jay Bhattacharya 31:00 ↗
I think it was irresponsible of them. Just full stop. I think that when you have a new product like that COVID vaccine was, I think those texts were January 2021. And you're an official who has worked very hard to get those products on the market. Even if you aren't, you're a top sort of public health person who everyone's advice is you're looking to for advice. You have an obligation to share your honest thoughts about potential harms to people that might take the thing. And instead what they did is they were reflecting the scientific debate that was happening at the time around the COVID vaccine for kids and for pregnant women privately, but publicly they exuded a confidence that they did not deserve to have regarding its safety for those populations. For me, when I was looking at it back then, I was thinking, you know, COVID is a really damaging disease for older people, really, you know, high rates of death and the balance for me made sense for older people that, you know, if you can prevent death, maybe there's some side effects, but they might be worth it to prevent death from COVID for old people. And for young people and for pregnant women, we should have been far more careful. In fact, I articulated that and got all kinds of grief for it in 2021. But then it went beyond that, Vince. They also...
went all in on mandates. They pushed very hard that every single person should be vaccinated with a COVID vaccine, irresponsibly, when we now know privately they harbored doubts regarding the safety of those products, or at least the balance of risks and harms of those products for pregnant women and potentially even for children. It was just irresponsible of them not to reflect that in their public utterance.
Vince 32:49 ↗
Well, and I would say not just irresponsible but downright tyrannical. I mean, if you are having a real robust scientific debate amongst yourselves, but not acknowledging to the public on which you are imposing all of these impositions like COVID jabs and losing jobs and destroying lives and killing unborn children. I mean, this is tyrannical behavior. And it worries me that this was considered kind of normal inside of the government, that you would have a debate like this but then not acknowledge it to the people who are supposed to be in charge, which is the voting public.
Jay Bhattacharya 33:24 ↗
Vince, it was even worse. The Biden administration, what they did is they systematically went out into social media and other to advertisers of shows like yours and they would say if you amplify these doubts, we're going to censor you. We're going to destroy your company. Right? So, I was banned, I was shadowbanned in Twitter, basically blacklisted on Twitter the day I joined, I believe, based on the pressure of the Biden administration going to the old Twitter before Elon, saying look if you don't shadowban these ideas, not me specifically but these ideas, we're going to destroy you as a company. The Biden administration went to Facebook and literally forced them to suppress private messaging groups regarding vaccine injury for the COVID vaccine.
Vince 34:10 ↗
Yes, again with threatening their company if they didn't comply, that kind of censorship. I can't even imagine what was going through their heads. They must have thought that they were so morally justified in pushing the COVID vaccine for everybody that it was worth violating the First Amendment.
Jay Bhattacharya 34:26 ↗
And if we'd had the First Amendment, the public could have seen that robust scientific debate you're talking about. The result would have been so much different, so much better. I think because when we allow the public to see how we scientists are arguing with each other, that gives a more honest reflection of what the reality is than the, you know, I am the top guru of all science and you must listen to me.
Vince 34:49 ↗
How deeply embedded, when you arrived at NIH, how deeply embedded was this worldview, would you say, this idea that like, hey, we are the science and the public better listen to us? What have you found and what have you had to deal with?
Jay Bhattacharya 35:04 ↗
You know, that's been the heartbreaking thing because I don't believe most scientists are like that, Vince. Most scientists want an honest conversation about the data. I mean, we go into science because we don't know the answers to all the questions. We discover the answers in the context of learning from looking at data, arguing with other scientists about how to interpret it, asking for new experiments. That process is what brings people into science to begin with. And the vast majority of people at NIH are like that, they want that. It was the leadership of some parts of the NIH that embraced this sort of almost authoritarian view of what science should be. This top-down, I am the science and I know best and therefore you should listen to me, that is actually antithetical to science. Most people at the NIH are not like that, Vince, and to me that's been one of the... I mean, I already knew that to some extent because I have so many good colleagues in the NIH before I became director of it. It's a really great place that has resulted in countless advances that have benefited the lives of millions and basically billions of people, and it will continue to do that.
Vince 36:06 ↗
So was the staff horrified by the leadership then? In other words, like there's a lot of good people there, you say... syndrome?
Jay Bhattacharya 36:14 ↗
It's like Stockholm, I mean it's like a Stockholm syndrome. Like what you have is people who, you know, they understand what the leadership is asking of them, and so it's hard to speak up in that context, right? You could get fired, your career as a scientist could be over. I mean, the former head of the NIH actually wrote an email to Tony Fauci calling for a devastating takedown of me, my colleagues from Harvard and Oxford at the time. When we argued against lockdowns under that kind of abusive leadership, you're going to get people who just clam up, silent, when in fact they have scientific doubts. I think that's the problem, is it was to my mind it was that leadership that took on this sort of godlike capacity to make decisions for millions of other people rather than letting the scientific process play out. Most scientists want the scientific process to play out because that's how we learn. That's how we get to truth.
Vince 37:08 ↗
So, speaking of the scientific process, I saw that recently the Trump administration has banished this very dangerous gain-of-function research, the federal funding for gain-of-function research in order to make viruses more deadly and infectious to humans. And correct me if I'm wrong, Jay, but there's never been a time that we've truly established that this gain-of-function research has resulted in a net benefit for humanity. It's always been like crazy lab leaks and peril and death. And at some point, you're like, well, let's stop doing that. It's actually the definition of insanity for us to keep doing this. So, the Trump administration is ending this. What can you tell me about that?
Jay Bhattacharya 37:47 ↗
Yeah. So I've helped with this process and now we have a policy that will make sure that we don't ever fund this dangerous kind of work again. Like, in 2010 or 2011 there was a big debate going on in the scientific community whether we should be allowing scientists to make viruses more dangerous. The argument in favor, which was favored by Tony Fauci and Francis Collins, then the former head of the NIH, said that look, the knowledge we gain from this will be worth it even if there is a risk of lab leak. In fact, there was an op-ed in the Washington Post with that literal sentence or very close to that sentence in it. And the argument was that we could predict which virus is going to make the leap and then we can develop vaccines and countermeasures in advance. I agree with you, there's no evidence that there's a single bit of human benefit that has come from this research. Just the analogy I'd give is to the beginning of the nuclear age. Enrico Fermi, brilliant physicist, launched the nuclear age in 1942 by doing an experiment where he started the first nuclear chain reaction on a squash court in the University of Chicago. He's a brilliant mathematician and physicist. He was worried that if he started this nuclear chain reaction maybe he couldn't stop it. It would like set fire to the world. And so he did a calculation. What is the probability of a catastrophic explosion coming out of this nuclear reaction he started? And he calculated probability of zero, and then he did the experiment. Under the new Trump regulation, what happens is every scientist that's going to do a biological experiment is going to be required to do that calculation. Are you taking a risk that will risk the well-being of the entire world, a pandemic, with what you're doing? And if that risk is more than zero, we will not fund that research.
Vince 39:31 ↗
That's a big deal. Thank you for doing that. Long overdue, for sure. And by the way, wasn't Anthony Fauci's involvement in funding gain-of-function in like in Wuhan? Wasn't he like using some sort of creative definition for gain-of-function in order to justify how he was getting away with this?

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APA

Bhattacharya, J. (2026, October 18). The Secret to the Rise of the Socialists | Episode 347 [Interview transcript]. The Vince Report. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3089413/

MLA

Jay Bhattacharya. "The Secret to the Rise of the Socialists | Episode 347." The Vince Report, 18 Oct. 2026. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3089413/.

BibTeX
@misc{bhattacharya2026_3089413,
  author       = {Jay Bhattacharya},
  title        = {The Secret to the Rise of the Socialists | Episode 347},
  howpublished = {Interview transcript, The Vince Report. CEOInterviews.AI},
  year         = {2026},
  month        = {oct},
  url          = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3089413/},
  note         = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}