Is people having less sex a big deal?
It is a big deal. Well, ask anyone who's not having sex if it's a big deal. I think they'll tell you. Yeah, it is a problem, especially considering that it is young men who are typically in their prime and at the peak of their sexual drive. So, not only is it, I think, quite frustrating for them, but also when you're in a situation like that where you're struggling, and it's not just about the sex, it's also about the connection and the emotional intimacy and the larger feeling of connectedness and community. So, "Sextion" is very much about the sex recession and the fact that young people, millennials and Gen Z in particular, are having less sex than previous generations. And I was skeptical at first. I thought that this talk about the sex recession and sexlessness was overblown. But after I sat down, I got a chance to go through the data myself, look at the media reportage, talk to people, and we see consistently with multiple data sets that one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past 12 months, which is a large number of people. And so I was interested with this book: what is taking the place of sex, and what does that say about where we're headed in the future?
How different is modern sexual activity to what we understand about the past?
Well, in terms of, say, the outlets that we have available. So the one question has been: is sex on the decline, or is it that other outlets are taking the place, like porn, masturbation, things like OnlyFans, or now AI companions? So each of these subjects has a different chapter in the book to themselves, and in them I'm explaining, trying to understand what the trend is about. Is it convincing? I test them out myself, which was a lot of fun in many cases. Going through the scientific research in terms of what we do know about these technologies, and then also talking about the evolutionary biology and psychology that is underpinning them. So what makes these technologies alluring to human beings, and why is it that it's potentially dangerous or distracting us from real-life sex?
How different is the amount of sex, partnered sex, that modern people are having compared with what we understand about the past?
Well, everyone across the board is having less sex. So, regardless of whether you are married or in a relationship or single, it's in Eastern countries, Western countries, basically all developed countries and all age cohorts, but as I mentioned, more specifically among young people. But your question earlier about, you know, is it taking the place of potentially masturbation or other outlets, or other sexual outlets? And if you look at studies that are asking about adolescent sexuality — so this is an understandably uncomfortable subject, right, to think about adolescent sexual awakening — but they had parental consent. So it's a legitimate study, and what they found is that even among adolescents, they are having lower rates of masturbation, and across the board with everyone, less partnered sex, less intercourse, less anal sex, less all types of sex, oral sex, partnered masturbation, I said solo masturbation as well. So across the board, there's been this decline. So it's not that people are just preferring masturbation, although I do think that is something that is happening, especially when we look at pornography and AI girlfriends and boyfriends and that type of thing. But it seems like there's something else, there's a larger phenomenon, and I also speak to the role of endocrine disruptors in one chapter because I think there's something else biologically happening.
So it's not just that the pie of sexual activity has been redistributed from person-on-person to solo person, or person with machine, or person with doll, or whatever. It's that the overall size of the pie has gotten smaller too. There is less sexual activity happening as an aggregate.
Yeah. Yeah, that seems to be the case. And what I find interesting, as you mentioned, with like dolls and robots, with the technology improving over time — I didn't think this was going to be the case. I always thought people would prefer in-person, real-life sex, but I'm beginning to think people are actually preferring these solo methods. And it's potentially dangerous if it comes to the point where we have these surrogates like robots where you can implant an AI and they are no different from a real-life person. I really think people are eventually going to — some people will be turning that way, but it's going to be much more popular than I had anticipated.
When did the sex recession start, in your opinion?
It's been documented for probably the last 30 years or so. Like the '90s was when it really started to taper a little bit, but it's been the most, I'd say, prominent in the last 20 years. COVID definitely played a role in making things worse, but it was happening before that. So, the internet, I think, is a big part of what's happening. Smartphones as well, social media. So sadly, social media is supposed to make us more connected, and it, if anything, seems to have made us more divided, even outside of the realm of sexuality. I think in terms of politically, in terms of men and women, in terms of even subcultures on the internet, just everyone seems to be fighting with each other and hating each other. So I think that's feeding into it as well. There's this larger, like, political hatred that's happening between men and women that's also fermenting this decline in sex, because if you hate the opposite sex, it's going to be very difficult to want to have a relationship with them or to date them.
I had some stats I wanted to read out to you. One in eight 26-year-olds are a virgin. 24% had no sex in the past year, about double the rate of 2010. Among men from 18 to 24, around one in three report no sexual activity in the past year. 26% of US adults reported no sex in 2021. 37% of adults having weekly sex is down from 55% in 1990. 37% weekly, down from 55%. 37% of Gen Z had no sex in the last month versus 19% of millennials. So even when we're talking millennials haven't got it, you know, there's a big jump again. 48% of married couples had no sex in the past month. And the dead bedroom subreddit is just cranking at the moment. But this — this is my favorite one. This is my favorite one by far. Survey of Gen Z found 67% would prioritize a good night's sleep over sex.
Yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.
You like a good night's sleep.
Well, that too. But the fact that — yeah, this is such a common trend, and it started — I mean, 2016 was when the first really big study came out showing this, and at the time I thought this is probably a fluke, it's probably a one-time thing. But more and more, it's just consistently, right? It's like so many, so many data sources are showing the same thing. It's very concerning. I do think mental health is another big part of it, right? When people are — I think people are very exhausted, right, day-to-day life, but it's also a lack of prioritization of sex. These other replacements for sex are taking the place because they're easier. And then globally, 5% of people are depressed right now. So if you're depressed or you're anxious — like Gen Z is, half of Gen Z has a diagnosed mental disorder, and of them, 90% have anxiety. There's a lot of anxious Gen Zers. And so if you're anxious and depressed, the last thing you're going to want to do is go out and meet people, sit down, have a date, potentially face rejection, have to be entertaining, you know, loss of motivation, feeling very self-conscious, all of this stuff. So like it's multifaceted in terms of, I think, all of the factors that are leading people to decide instead, you know, I'd rather just stay at home and swipe on apps even if I'm not meeting anybody, or sleep.
Yeah. What's happening with hypergamy?
Hypergamy has taken on a life of its own, I think, in internet culture. So it's this — from a research perspective or scientific perspective, it's the idea that women tend to want to date or marry men who are at the same level of success or who are more successful than they are. So women typically marry up, and so yes, this is true. I think in some ways it's gone a little bit off the rails because, you know, I write in "Sextion" about the three-sixes rule. So the idea that women look for men who are six feet or taller, who make six figures or more, and who have a six-inch penis. Can I say penis on your podcast?
You can say penis if you like.
Every other — every other media outlet I've been on, I'm like, is it okay if I say this? You can bleep it out. So, or manhood. So basically, if a man does not meet those criteria, he's not considered worthy of your time in, say, the internet dating culture for women. And I do like — I mean, none of those things really correlate with success in a relationship or marriage. So when you do the calculations, as I have, you know, it comes down to like this tiny, tiny percentage, and then you have to also take into account: is he nice to you? Do you have chemistry? Do you have things in common? Can you have a conversation? Does your conversation last more than like five seconds? You know, so like the more important factors whittle it down even smaller to an even smaller percentage. So I think women who are abiding by these criteria may be missing the bigger picture.
How many women do you think are abiding by the three-sixes rule?
So it's interesting because when you look at the internet and what's on social media, this is something that women are really pushing forward. I question it, but at the same time, having talked to a lot of men about what dating is like nowadays, they — from what I've been told — women have really unrealistic standards in terms of what they're looking for. But I would also say, you know, social media has made men want to date like super hot, you know, women who may or may not look like their photos, may be super photo-edited and really perfect-looking, but may or may not look like that in real life, or might have a ton of procedures, as I have a chapter on plastic surgery. So I think both sexes have very unrealistic expectations of what they want. But like anything, evolutionary psychology and biology is not prescriptive. It's not saying this is what you should do. It's just basically generalizing or noticing trends in behavior that explain mating psychology. And like anything, the internet takes it and just like runs away with it.
I don't know. My favorite place for doing mating research is the pool at Soho House here in Austin. And it honestly — it's ground zero for looking at mating dynamics. And a lot of the time I'd be there with friends, and there'd be a group of girls on the bed next to us, and they, you know, be 24 or something, and they're paying for a Soho House membership, and it's a couple of grand a year, so they're probably educated and earning well or whatever. They have never said, oh, it's because of the size of some guy's penis. Now you can say, oh, they wouldn't want to publicly state that. That's kind of a bit uncouth. That's going to make them seem a little bit silly. The data that I saw from Kinsey Institute suggests that if you're a guy with a six-inch erect penis, you're in like the 97th percentile. So it's bigger than basically any woman has ever seen. So I get the sense that that's not an issue. The six-pack abs — if you switch it out for that, which is a guy that's sort of muscular and in good condition, I could see that a little bit more. I think if women actually saw like full six-inch penises more, they would actually be like — I mean, 98th percentile.
Well, yeah, because the average penis is five inches. But what's interesting is most women say they want a six-inch penis. Most men think women want a seven-inch penis.
And most men think that they have a six-inch penis. Probably most men are actually harder on themselves than they need to be.
Oh, they have a — they think they have a four-inch penis.
They have a five-inch penis.
Women want a six-inch penis, and men think that women want a seven-inch penis. Fantastic. So that's the thing also with hypergamy. I feel men are really — I don't want to say hard on themselves, but they challenge themselves more than they need to.
Keep using the word hard. It's fine.
Because they think like women want — again, like I read about looksmaxxing, men think that women want this super hot Chad guy, that he has to have perfect bone structure, that he has to have all these metrics right. Especially guys are getting penile injections in terms of filler, or they're getting like enlargement. And women — I mean, yes, some women do like those things, but by and large, most women care more about resources and protection and are you a good person. So I think hypergamy has also gone off the rails a bit in that way, in that men think that women just keep wanting more and more and more and better and better and better. And to some extent that's true, but I think also like you have to — we have to give love some credit as well. And if you're happy with someone, I don't think the other person is going to have a reason to go elsewhere.
Yeah, I get this, and the internet — it makes a lot of sense on the internet because it's very easy to put into a spreadsheet. I can put my height, I can put my penis length, which I do all the time. I can put all their objective metrics, and it's kind of like that 'is having a boyfriend cringe' now article. Very quickly, if you go outside, you realize that 'is having a boyfriend cringe' is only true on the internet, in the same way as the Kardashians made skinny not a fad, as cringe. Like it just — it really doesn't exist if you go out into the real world. If you go and sit around the Soho House pool, for the most part, the issues that at least I hear from women, and I hear at my live shows, is guys aren't ready to commit, and they're not sufficiently emotionally educated, and they don't seem very balanced, and they don't really have their life together. They don't have a mission, and they don't know where they're going. Now, I think that a lot of that is maybe publicly acceptable ways of putting a more difficult-to-define sense that there just wasn't chemistry. Something wasn't quite right. Why? It's like, well, if you're a postgrad girl trying to date a blue-collar guy, there might be a little sense of socioeconomic imbalance going on here. And have you heard me talk about the tall girl problem? Have I given you this one?
I have. The high heel problem.
Yeah. Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway keeps calling it the high heel effect because he's ancient and he's demented. It's the tall girl problem. And then he stole it from me and started talking about it on CNN and misnamed it. And now that — anyway, tell me, tell me, Chris, what is the tall girl problem? Look, it's exactly what you're talking about, which is if you have women that are socioeconomically more successful, you have an ever-increasing group of high-performing women and an ever-decreasing group of ultra-high-performing men that are above and across from them. That gives most men this sort of invisibility cloak that means that they're not seen by women as potential protector-providers. It creates a large cohort of women that did everything right. I went to university, I got the job, I pursued my career, or I've got financial independence, and I'm struggling to find any guys that I'm attracted to, and I can't really work out why. And oh, he seems really good, but that guy that's in the rarified strata at the top has a wealth of options. So they're able to use and discard women. And then the really sort of gnarly outcome is that if you have casual sex with somebody, that skews your own self-perspective of your mate value. Your self-referential mate value perspective gets a little bit tuned up, and you think, well, that's — I got it for one night, I should be able to get it. It's like there is a difference between what you can get on rent and what you can buy. And that altogether, it doesn't make for a very easy environment because these women don't want to be used and discarded, but they also don't necessarily feel that much resonance with the guys that are in the cohort of men that are socioeconomically below them. Men that are in relationships where they're not the primary breadwinner, 50% more likely to use erectile dysfunction medication. Man loses his job, likelihood of divorce doubles. Woman loses her job, no difference in terms of the likelihood of divorce. So all of these things are kind of raw physics of the system. And we can say, well, maybe you can offset hypergamy. Maybe people are not going to — the women are going to learn to value other things in this way. And I get the sense that this is more the literal physics of the system, like largely unbreakable. And I mean that just — that for coupling for young people, especially given women out-earn men by a grand and a half per year up to age 30.
One in seven couples now, the woman is the primary breadwinner.
Yeah. Yeah. The bottom 40% of male earners and the top 20% of female earners are dating — female primary breadwinner. So the top quintile for women and the bottom two quintiles for men are dating in the opposite, hypogamous direction. Just that, like, you don't even need to talk about the endocrine disruptors and the desire for sex and porn and all the rest of it. Just the coupling, right? Just simply the coupling there, because I'd be interested to know how much hypergamy plays a role when it comes to a one-night stand.
Well, okay. So that's a huge thesis of my book, this idea that because women are becoming more educated, more financially successful than men, they have fewer suitable bachelors to choose from. So what you find is that very successful — problem. Well, I need to coin my own term for this. It's fine. And I'll go on CNN and then misquote. Call it something else. Call it something else. And then you and Scott can have a battle to the end of time to work out who can misquote me. That's fine. So what happens, as you're saying, is that there's this smaller pool of very successful men who have their pick of the lot, who don't — they're disincentivized in terms of settling down. So if they want, I mean, they can have multiple marriages in a row. You will see this happening. So you can't have, you know, polygyny, but what you'll have is multiple marriages in a row. So they'll marry someone, have children, divorce her, have another marriage, have children, divorce her, go on. So, and then what happens is with men's dual mating strategy is that, you know, you have long-term choices and short-term options. And so the women who fall into the short-term bucket may erroneously think that they have — they are one of the long-term options, but men very much, when they meet someone or meet a woman, they choose which bucket she's going to go into, and there's not much chance of a crossover complex.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So in terms of hypergamy and how to fix it, I think getting rid of DEI would be one start. So diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives, because that actively penalizes men, punishes men for no good reason. And if you are — is that true? It actively penalizes men as opposed to just lifting up other groups.
Yeah. Well, I mean, coming from academia, I can tell you that they actually have job postings — I've seen them myself — where they explicitly will say this job is for, you know, a minority or a woman. You know, basically ruling out white men. And — I'm an immigrant, so — so it doesn't affect you. But it's crazy. I mean, I've had so many colleagues tell me this. So I'm not in academia anymore, but they will tell me the things that they experience behind basically closed doors, where if they want to apply for something, they'll be discouraged because they'll say this position is for a woman or for a minority, so don't bother applying. So this is just one faction of society. My understanding is this happens everywhere. This was very much in like corporations as well, but I think it's been hopefully dialed back a little bit, right, since — and your goal here is if you enable men to get access socioeconomically, that allows this imbalance, the tallness of women, to the men get to grow tall a little bit taller. Right. Right. It lets it be a little bit more of like an organic outcome.
Isn't it strange? There's sort of a zero-sum perspective of empathy, that any support that's given to any group is seen as being taken away from another group, especially one that's more deserving. And that if we support and raise up men, that that means that we're taking it away from some minority or somebody else that should deserve it. But if your goal is to live a happy life, if you're not enabling guys — if you're a girl, woman, and or a mother, right, you don't even need to be in the dating pool, a married mother that's exited the dating pool — presumably you want your daughters to be able to have eligible partners. The very dearth of eligible men is caused by the fact that they're not being given this kind of access. Now, it's an interesting one because I don't know if men are actually that keen about the idea of going to university. Well, that's — I don't know how driven they are about the career thing in quite the same way anymore. They are the tales.
Part of it, I think, is because of the DEI and the feminism, and that they sense that they're not going to get a fair chance. You know, if they're being taught all through, say, the education system in high school, even girls are getting — I've seen polls where they show like male students say they feel it's unfair, girls get favored by teachers. So already they're feeling, you know, a bad taste in their mouth, and then you go to apply to university and you know that the odds are stacked against you. I do think that I understand why some people, especially some women or more progressive women, may be fearful of allowing men to have a fair chance or to roll back some of the advantages that have been given to women, because their fear is, is this the start of us not being allowed to work or not being allowed to pursue education or own property or things like that. But I do think they have a very misguided idea of what the outcome is going to be, because if it continues this way where women are continuing to outperform men in education, they make more money — who are you going to date? You know, they think that the men, because these men have fewer options, that they're all going to be clamoring for these women, but these women, because they're so educated, they don't want anything to do with these guys. Correct. Correct. So they're all fighting for this smaller pool of men, and it's going to be vicious.
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So, birth control has affected mating psychology. I'll start with women. It's because birth control halts ovulation. So just briefly for your audience in case they may not be aware of how birth control works: ovulation is when women are the most fertile in their cycle. So that's when they can become pregnant. So that window is typically around, say, day 11 to 16 of your cycle. So your first day of menstruation is day one, and then it goes into — you know, I'll leave it at that. So basically, when you're ovulating, because you can get pregnant, your sexual psychology is, we'll say, at its peak. I think it's a very interesting time to be studying in terms of women and their mating decisions, because that's when their decisions about sex have the greatest potential consequences. So if you're halting that process in a woman, or an entire multiple generations of women — one in 10 women of childbearing age is on the pill. So — one in 10. Mhm. I would have thought it would be more. You would think it's more, but it's about 11%. That's in America. No way. It's only 11%. Yeah. According to the CDC — have you encountered — is that any type of birth control or just the pill? So you could have the implant, the arm implant thing, you could have the injection, you could have IUD, you could have Mirena coil. Yeah. All the — I have the statistic regarding like all birth control, or rather all contraception — but in terms of the pill specifically. So what happens is if you're not ovulating, you're basically blunted in terms of that sexual interest and that signaling, because during that time, women have been shown in studies to wear more provocative clothing. They're more likely to want to go out to clubs and meet men, to socialize, things like that, right? To meet partners. And also, men can tell when women are ovulating. So they can tell in terms of a woman's appearance. They can tell by her scent. And men who are in — they can tell by the way that they walk. You see that study where they did silhouettes of women walking down the street? So good. Yeah, it's wild. So, and men in relationships will show more mate-guarding behaviors when their partner is ovulating if she's not on the pill. Oh, I didn't know about that. Yeah, he'll call and check up on her. I don't know that these men are necessarily consciously aware, but they're trying to basically, you know, like, block other guys. So if that's off the table entirely, surely that's doing something as well to men's mating psychology. And so I think if women want to take the pill, not take the pill, that's their choice. But I wish there was more in terms of information for young women, especially considering that many young women get on the pill when they are, say, teenagers. They're on it for nonsexual purposes. So things like regulating their menstrual cycle or, say, for their skin or whatever reason, and they, I don't think, are aware necessarily of this side effect and how this might change their reproductive choices. Because what happens is once you get on the pill — and I have a chapter on reproductive technology like egg freezing and IVF — so once you start to delay your fertility, you're going to spend more time later on trying to make up for it if you decide to have children. And I don't think that young women are necessarily as aware of that either. That your biology is something very important to consider as a woman. And it's, you know, that's seen as sexist to say that, but that's the reality. And you know, especially if you want a family, it's important to prioritize that because that process is going to affect you in a way that's different from men.
Yeah. I had Sarah Hill completely just take my head off with all of the impact of hormonal birth control. I think that a lot of the modern mental health issues that we're seeing with young women can probably be laid at the feet of — at least, I would love to do a cohort analysis between how many of the people that have got anxiety or depression also took hormonal birth control during puberty or are still on it now. I mean, the fact that your mate choices for women change when you're on the pill versus off the pill, that you seem to prioritize a little bit more for provisioning when you're on the pill and a little bit more for protection when you're off the pill. These are, you know, small effects, but they're there. How many women that I've heard from who said, 'I was on the pill for ages, then I came off and I wasn't attracted to my partner anymore.' Okay, but when is the first time that most women come off the pill if they've been on it since they were teenagers? It's when they're ready to have kids. But if you're doing it right, you've gone — teenagers, 20s, found a partner, stayed with a partner, golden retriever, moved in together, engaged, married, off the pill, ready to have kids, right? You are deep in — it's a great piece of advice is you need to, if you're thinking about getting the golden retriever, right? Not even thinking about moving in, not even thinking about the engagement thing, you should come off the pill. You should come off the pill and you're just going to have to be extra careful with protection. You're going to have — you should come off the pill and work out if you still like your boyfriend, because the likelihood of you — not in some women it makes them more attracted to them, right? In women that are in relationships with more masculinized, more formidable, more attractive men, they actually get released out of this hormonal fugue state and they're like, 'I'm in a relationship with a Chad. This is great. Let me jump on you.' But then in other versions, they've been optimizing for something that a more sort of native physiology or hormonal profile of theirs would not have been too keen on. And then when they reveal that mask, they go, 'Oh, I don't really like you all that much.' Yeah. Which is unfortunate for both of them. And it's unfortunate for him. I can only imagine as a guy, you know, if your relationship — go back on the pill. Go back on the pill. Bring her back. Um, what was I going to say? I wonder if because young women are getting on the pill at such a young age, is this partially also why feminism has been so popular and why women really want to feminize men and they see masculinity as toxic? Because if you, while on the pill, your body thinks you're pregnant and you're looking for a nurturing caretaker. Is that why there's just been this larger movement socially to encourage men to be much more feminine, not to be risk-taking, not to be dominant?
To a degree. To a degree, I think I could imagine so. I would also imagine that MeToo and a lot of the moral panic around the danger of men generally causes women to want a softer kind of man. Now, they only want a softer kind of man kind of in principle, not in practice. Right? You know, in the mid-20s, they tried to put what are called cinnamon roll boyfriends or golden retriever husbands on the front cover of romance books. I say this as somebody that was in that industry for a little while doing — cinnamon roll — cinnamon roll husband. Cinnamon roll husband is sort of soft, fluffy, very non-dominant, very pliable. You know, he's the kind of — he's got a bit of a gut, but he's the sort of guy who would be able to put up level shelves, but wouldn't exactly ravage you in the backseat of a car. Okay? Right? Very reliable, consistent husband. And on these romance books, the person on the cover is the protagonist. Typically, these books were post-Fifty Shades of Grey, so it should have just ripped, right? You're buying Bitcoin at five cents. The market's only going up. Nobody wanted to buy them. Nobody wanted to buy these. Now it is kind of like female porn. So do you really want to watch — do you want your sexual fantasy to be about some guy that can put up level shelves but isn't that good in the bedroom, no matter how much you try and sort of repurpose it? But the point is women like the idea of this kind of — they'll proclaim it, right? It's a view that they'll endorse, that men should dial back their dominance and their desire for conquest and aggression and mastery and stuff like that, but it's not one that they'll — they will endorse it but not embody it. And when push comes to shove and you go, 'Oh yeah, yeah, he should be more soft and more gentle and less concerned with achieving things and stuff.' What does your husband do? Oh, he's a hedge fund manager. Oh, fantastic. Very good. I used to do MMA as a young guy. Lovely. But I do think on the birth control thing, you're right. What is it doing to men? I think that, well, there's evidence to suggest that men who are around old women, post-menopausal, or young girls, their testosterone drops, their fertility drives. So I know that you've got a question around what's the X factor that's contributing to a testosterone dip. I think that the artificial suppression of female fertility through birth control and the increasing isolation of men, that they're not hanging around with fertile women or any women at all, and more of them are effectively infertile through birth control — I think that that is definitely a potential X factor that I don't think anybody has priced in. No one's priced in the fact that male sex drive and their hormone profile is impacted by the fertility of the women in their local ecology. And if you're not around women that are fertile and not around women at all, that is going to drive your sex drive down and it's going to drive your testosterone down.
Interesting. I was going to ask you what it was like shooting for those novels. Have you? So the way that I used to do it was I would shoot with a photographer for just my portfolio stuff. So it wasn't purposefully raunchy. I guess I don't know. I just turned it on. I don't know what happened. Anyway, I got picked up — the first shoot that I did got picked up by a really good author and put on the cover of a book called Ricochet. And then I got flown out to go and do some of these — they're like book conventions, I suppose, but the entire thing is like 2,000 dark romance readers. So there's me and a couple of the other cover models and then the husbands of the authors that are there to help them. Okay. And that's it. And it's just — apart from that, it's just female readers. Which sounds wonderful in practice, but the — I was 27, 28 or something like that. The age profile — I was the youngest person in the room usually by like a factor of two. Anyway, it was interesting. It was fun. It's a part of my history, but I've aged out. Yeah, I could be — I might just pivot into Cinnamon Roll Husband. I can't wait for that. Get a gut. Chill out. There you go. If this podcast, you know, if it tanks, fuck it. Well, anyway, so we've — you've already got what's happening with hormonal birth control for women, and then we do have endocrine disruptors for men too. Yeah.
Yeah. So definitely, I mean, there have been a number of studies showing this, that testosterone levels have been declining for the last, say, 40 years, and it's been, you know, pretty severe, I would say, in the last 20 years. And researchers have accounted for things like age, diet, you know, exercise, lifestyle choices like alcohol, smoking and cannabis, and still they say there's something going on here where it is environmental and that it is something specific to this time period. And so they do think that there's something, you know, in terms of the food we're eating potentially or in our water supply. I've read a lot of the animal literature in terms of drugs in the water and how this affects fish or — what are the craziest stories that you learned about that? There was one species of Japanese fish and they tested diazepam. So, okay. Well, there was one study that looked at fish that were exposed to pharmaceutical waste, and then also there was — I'm trying to think what the other source was — but basically one part of the water supply, the fish were masculinized. So there were effects in both directions. Some of the fish were more masculine, and then some of them were feminized. So it's basically saying, you know, this is happening to the fish. Like, what do you think it's doing to humans? But with these Japanese fish, they were lethargic and they were basically too knocked out to breed. The courtship behavior was messed up. The female fish, their ovaries were so distended, and I felt really bad for the fish looking at these pictures because I thought that doesn't look, you know, very healthy or comfortable. So it's basically, you know, these drugs are doing something, I think, doing something to us. And how, you know, if you're not even aware of it, even if you do manage to find a partner and fall in love and decide you do want to have a family, you may come up against these issues. And then if you're not even aware that this is what you're ingesting on a daily basis, what do you do then? SSRIs drive sex drive down, right? Yeah. Yeah. The effect on libido, and there's also post-SSRI sexual dysfunction. Yes. Yes. Yes. PSSD. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that in many cases we don't know the effects of these drugs on children, and in some cases they are being prescribed to kids. So that's very concerning.
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You mean in terms of why people aren't having it? Yeah, it's probably both. I think at the core, everybody wants to find someone. Many people may say that they've given up and they're happy on their own, but I do think that's what most people deep down want. And sex is — well, see, the thing with sex though, I think porn is a big part of this issue in terms of why people are turning away from actual sexual activity. They're getting their needs met through this proxy that stimulates or simulates real sexual activity, because when you're watching porn, the same network of brain regions is activated as when you're actually having sex. So you're having the resulting orgasm and you are, you know, getting these feel-good chemicals. It helps to self-soothe and regulate your emotions, help you calm down if you're stressed out. And so it makes men, I think, in particular, less likely to want to go out and go through the hassle of having to talk to a woman, having to sit through a date, having to pay for the date, having to follow up, and all this stuff. Like, why bother do that if you can get sexual gratification on a screen? But I think also that leads to potentially like an overall sense of lethargy, because when you are masturbating and having an orgasm, you are, you know, you're going to be sleepy after. So is that also — you can tell me — do you think this is a trend for you, but just a trend more generally with young men in terms of does this affect their motivation? Because I'm wondering for guys this question of why men are falling behind in society, right? And I'm very concerned for young men because I hear all the time from parents that their daughters are doing really well, excelling academically, but their sons just for whatever reason are just — they're not enjoying it. You know, they're having mental health issues. They're just staying at home and fapping all the time. Yeah. Well, maybe not fapping, but they're like, you know, vaping and playing video games or online betting or whatever, and they have no motivation. Do you think porn could be part of that? Because I think if you're exposed to this at such a young age and this is the thing that you're watching every day and it's your coping strategy, that potentially that's the thing you're going to constantly gravitate toward, and it's actually going to, you know, make you really sedated and lethargic more broadly in life.
Yeah, I think sedated is a great word. I've got another idea that Scott probably can't wait to misquote. The male sedation hypothesis. Young male syndrome, which I know that you know about. Historically, high volumes of young, sexless men tended to cause anarchy and revolutions and push over grannies and set stuff on fire. Why is it, given that we've seen the highest rates of sexlessness amongst young men in the modern world, that we're not seeing the concordant amounts of antisocial behavior? And it's my belief that men are being sedated out of their status-seeking and reproductive-seeking behavior through screens, video games, and porn. And yeah, that's what's happening behaviorally. Maybe there's some endocrine disruptors, maybe a lot of weed. I think more young guys smoke weed than drink alcohol now. So yeah, it is a real push toward lethargy. Do I think that you're anesthetizing yourself from your sort of mate-seeking behavior by being able to use porn? Almost certainly to a degree. I mean, there's even the opposite, which is what was it? 'Masturbate before you evaluate' was a tagline at university, which was, do I really want to sleep with that girl? Let me have a wank first and work out if I still do. And for the most part, the guys were like, no, it wasn't that. I like — what was it? I didn't like you. I was just horny. And in some ways you go, ah, that avoids me from making a mistake. But when you do it en masse and when it's very easily available — I mean, look, there's some mixed-bag data. Dr. David Ley is very anti-porn panic. I know Mike Israetel is very anti-porn panic too. And then on the other side, there's some people that behaviorally it's not recognized as an addiction properly yet, I don't think. Right. But it seems impossible to me that one of the strongest drivers for humans being given to them freely, they can essentially push a button, like rub a button for a while, and they get to experience this thing that — I mean, you know what would be fascinating? I would have loved to have seen in hunter-gatherer tribes how much masturbation occurs. Like, is — probably too busy foraging. Okay, well that might be true. Just talk to me, the neuroscience of porn use — is there anything distinct about that that's different to what's happening when people have sex?
Okay, I was going to mention — I was going to say something. Oh, so what I was going to say, I agree with you in terms of like if you're — I can see if you're doing it like constantly and it becomes a lifestyle thing. How this is what my concern is, if it's like a lifestyle thing for guys, because I've had men say to me when they are not watching porn, if they manage to cut out porn entirely, that they actually have more motivation to go up and talk to a woman. Because I would imagine if you see a woman that you're attracted to and you want to go speak to her and say you're maybe more shy or anxious, you know in the back of your mind that you can go home and masturbate and that's going to give you a release after. In some ways, would that not make it a —
little bit easier for younger guys, especially who may not have as much experience with women, and especially post-MeToo, where they're already a little bit, understandably, more scared to talk to women.
How it knowing that you have this other option might...
That's a good point. That that that is a good point. Uh, I mean, it's the same thing as if the only way that men could get sex was by marrying a woman, asking her father, becoming a pillar of the community, showing his competence, or if you just need to be in a nightclub at the right time in the right place at 2 in the morning, like men will meet those standards appropriately, including the standards for themselves in order to get sexual gratification through a screen. I mean, it is I can't remember who it was that said it to me, but just for a second, think about how stupid the human brain is and think about how strong our sex drive is. That looking at a 7-inch screen that I am not a part of, of someone else having sex with someone else, can confuse my brain into thinking some sex is going to happen here.
Like that that is how strong this drive is, right? That a a two-dimensional, exclusively video and audio representation on a teeny tiny little screen propped up against a pillow is enough to convince your brain there might be some sex on you should respond appropriately.
Also think about what it's doing to kids. Like this is one of the rabbit holes I've been going down more recently and thinking about how has this affected Gen Z's development.
They're exposed to porn at such a young age. But um, in terms of the difference between say what's going on in the brain, so same brain network basically, you know, like regions that are involved in physiological arousal, penile tumescence, visual uh regions. Um, this was my dissertation actually, so it takes me back. Now I'm trying to remember what other parts of...
You did a dissertation on penile tumescence?
No, no, not just penile tumescence, but it was on basically like male sexuality and sexual arousal. And yeah, I looked at the structure and function of the brain. I used four different types of brain imaging. It was a lot of fun. It was a very expensive study, but I was I was extremely blessed.
Really fun for the men. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, and so basically it's it's it's the same network. It's not activated as strongly, but it's very much the same reasons. And that's why pornography is so compelling and why I think for people who especially if you are if that is your primary mode of sexual release, very much become a preference or a stand-in.
You're habituating more than anything. Just what do you do? You know, guys that tend to go to the same bar all the time, sit in the same seat, order the same coffee, like it just becomes a part of your daily routine. And there's this weird habituation effect, I think, with porn. Mary Harrington calls it the law of fap entropy, which is whatever you start out wanking to gets progressively more extreme over time.
That's that's actually I I like her work, but actually that's not exactly accurate.
Tell me what is accurate.
For guys who end up watching quote extreme stuff, that's actually what they liked all along. It just took them a while to admit it to themselves.
Oh god, the algo wasn't delivering them what they needed until it took a bit of time to refine it.
Well, because understandably men who have these unusual sexual preferences, they're a little bit more reluctant to to say out loud. So, even to themselves. And so, oh, that's so interesting. They're explaining to say their partner or their friends if they're talking about this, you know, that's so good. I love I love that. I mean, the the law still works, but not for the reason that you think. It's not a progressive habituation to more extreme stuff. It's a progressive revealing to yourself of what you wanted.
That's so cool. What about gooning? Let's talk about gooning.
I mean, you could spend your life masturbating watching porn if you want to. There's enough content out there for sure. Yeah. Um, so gooning, I'm sure your audience knows what this term is, but it's basically men who predominantly men who like to masturbate to no end in sight. And basically, my understanding, they might have multiple screens open for hours. They don't reach an orgasm. It's like edging, but for a longer period of time, and they don't really have any conflict about it. They quite enjoy it.
How's porn affected women?
I think there are more women struggling with porn issues than people realize because this has predominantly been an issue like say um porn quote addiction although like you said I I don't believe porn is addictive. I think it's a poor coping mechanism for people who have anxiety and who procrastinate. That's really what it's been when I talk to men.
Yeah. Well, because if you say you have anxiety or you lack assertiveness, it's a very easy way to distract yourself and not have to deal with the problems in your life, which I have a lot of compassion for people who struggle with this because I think because it's pornography, it's related to sex, it's a lot more stigmatized. So, I understand why people want to call it an addiction because there have been studies that claim that it's addiction, but they don't uh account for other confounding variables. So, they don't ask about things like paraphilias. They don't, from what I've seen, they don't ask about anxiety. So you don't know when you're looking at these brain regions that are supposed to be different that are correlated with addiction. You don't know if what you're seeing in the people with porn problems is due to addiction or is it due to the fact that they're anxious or the the fact that they have these unusual sexual interests. So I think that research could be a little bit cleaner. If that if it does happen that new studies come out showing this, then I'm fully on board with that. But I'm just not really convinced because when you talk to guys with porn problems, almost always they have anxiety and this is a way for them to avoid talking to their spouse or their girlfriend.
Okay. So what's different with women?
Women. I think it's the same thing. We don't know as much about women because this is an issue that I think has only really become more of a problem with the younger generation, maybe even millennial women, like younger millennial women with the accessibility of porn. But I think even cuz it's even with studies when they're looking at say the the effects of porn on kids, women have only really started to show more negative um body image, say, or body comparison more recently because girls are being exposed to it now. They girls tend to watch porn later than boys and they tend to watch it maybe once or twice out of curiosity. But I do think with like Gen Z, they're being exposed to this even before their first sexual experience, before their first orgasm. They can make sense of it. And I think that it can be integrated into their life a little bit more. So the same thing I think anxiety usually for anyone with a porn issue, there's a history of some form of sexual trauma unfortunately. So there there it's a way that anyone with a porn issue, most people with a porn issue, there is some history of sexual trauma. Not everyone, but in my experience, many of them have had some issue with uh yeah, either with abuse or being exposed to porn at a young age, either accidentally, and that was like a traumatic thing. Like when I say trauma, I'm not the way sometimes people use the word trauma nowadays is very flippant, right? They use it over the...
Insignificant thing? No. Yeah. I'm referring to something that is actually quite horrific and awful or they uh in or they might have been shown it in the process of grooming.
So, what do what do you think's going on? Is it just disinhibition, dysregulation? Is it the same reason that people who maybe had a childhood trauma struggle with gambling or struggle with drugs or alcohol or their emotions, rage? Is it just the same? But this the particular pathway these people have found is porn or is there something specific about the the mechanism that porn gives that helps them to sort of I don't know alchemize or try and alchemize whatever they went through?
It could be partially biological thing because it's like a self-soothing thing. So, especially for children, if they're not taught ways to self-regulate, they're looking for ways to feel good when they're stressed out or upset, right? So, some people gravitate toward drugs and alcohol, other people might gravitate toward porn. I think it depends on how old you are. Probably when you uh come across it initially, what your experience is when you see it, like is it a pleasurable thing? But I think for the men say who like when I was doing research who had had these negative experiences in childhood, it was a way of revisiting it to try and make sense of it. I think um but yeah, I I really strongly believe like sitting down with a competent therapist and working through that stuff could be very helpful for people.
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In terms of it influencing the type of sex? So in terms of say very extreme thing previously, okay, I would start with before the internet. So if because there's a concern about does porn make men more violent? Does porn make men entitled with sex? Um, previously if a man grew up and had his first sexual experience prior to online porn, I would say porn is not the thing that made him if he is say violent or um likes to degrade his partners or or treat them poorly. I wouldn't say that's porn. I would say that's due to the way he was raised. He's probably antisocial, probably has some dark triad personality going on there, probably um doesn't think very highly of women, has a lot of hostility toward women. But those views would have been formed prior to porn. So I don't think porn is the problem. I think he probably was interested in violent porn and violent sex because of other factors in terms of how he was raised potentially. Nowadays with the fact that the fact that kids are being exposed to this so young, I'm really concerned about how this is affecting their sexuality because we do see studies coming out showing that kids who are having problematic sexual behaviors, it's due to being sexualized by porn like early exposure. This trend of sexual choking that I write about in Sexinction. Um, young women, Gen Z women in particular, it's almost ubiquitous. So, I think that is being be due to them being exposed to this at such a young age and believing that this is what they need to do in order to attract men or to be enticing in the bedroom.
And I would be very clear that you could die from doing this. So, it's not safe. There's no safe way to do it. You know, this was Louise Perry's thing that she was helping to prosecute uh guys that had killed their partners and then used whatever it is the rough sex excuse thing which uh yeah I mean that's that's horrific. Uh there is a bit of research that I wanted to talk to you about which I've never spoken about on the show before. You're probably familiar with new study interviewed 302 adults. Of those, more women enjoyed aggression in porn, were aroused by portrayals of female pain, and reported wanting to see more aggression. And this is a bar chart which shows women saying double the number of women saying aggression is arousing. Uh triple the number of men, the triple number of women to men, uh hard aggression is arousing. Maybe four times the number of women to men would like more aggression in mainstream pornography. Uh maybe 30% more actively seek aggression. Uh the only thing that men are stronger on is aroused by women showing pleasure in response to aggression. And that's maybe 5%. Uh aroused by women showing pain in response to aggression nearly double women to men. Okay, this seems to be pretty this is a small sample size 302 people but this is you can dig deeper and find out kind of the same pattern and it's something that I remember I once read a feminist who wrote about this and she said something along the lines of um it's an uncomfortable fact for most modern feminists that women seem to prefer aggressive porn than men do. Uh and uh misogynists use this as an excuse that like she wanted it made uh type thing. That to me does suggest that the picture is a little bit more complex than just guys have learned it in porn.
And now they're doing it to women and women feel the need to perform up to it. That no one's pushing women in that way. It's not the only study of that kind. And um...
No, I agree. I I'm not one of those people that think that this is entirely like men pushing it on women and women have no choice but to do it. I do think there are some women out there that's sexual masochism. So it's like sexual arousal at the idea of being hurt, humiliated, degraded by your partner. So that's the only paraphilia that you actually find in women typically. So usually women if...
Oh, that's so sorry. That's so interesting. The only paraphilia that's typical in women, paraphilia being sign of odd sexual uh proclivities...
Um yeah, masochism is when it's happening to you. Sadism is when you're doing it to someone else.
Okay, cool. Cool. How much sadism is there in women?
Um so when you do see other paraphilias like sadism, it usually is uh correlated with personality disorders, right? They're supposed to be dark.
Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so the uh say the masochism for women.
Yeah. So evolutionarily it could be because women well women's bodies have you heard of the study where women basically are aroused to any type of porn. So it's whether it's more sexually fluid girl on girl, guy on guy, girl on guy. Well this is why this is why...
Just to be clear, animals having sex, not people having sex with animals. I don't agree with...
What's that uh hockey players the two hockey players boning. What's that thing that it's that series hot one? Not hot ones. That's the wing thing. What the is it?
Two hockey players. It's the It's taken the world by storm. Heated Rivalry. I knew I got there. You're Canadian. You're supposed to know. I Sorry. It was a hard week for you. Um...
I don't actually watch porn, so that might be why I've never heard of...
Heated Rivalry was a book. It was a book about these two hockey players on opposing teams and then they they they each other.
Why are you reading this?
I'm not reading it. Right. This is a big TV show. I didn't see I've not I've never seen anything like this. I'm the straightest man in the room. Um this this has this has broken the internet and uh it's you you should absolutely have a look at this. I'll do some love to look at this studio. So it is it is basically revealing just how flexible women's sexualities are.
Yeah. That these two guys, there was a book book super popular, then pivoted over into this TV series, and the TV series is ripped. It's like a Brokeback Mountain on ice, right?
But was it actually pornographic or was it just like hinted?
Asking the wrong guy. I'm sorry.
I didn't get I mean, I I have to assume that there was either implied or like pretty close to like raunchy happening on the on the screen.
Um anyway, that that you're quite right. Why is it that you think that women's sexuality is more fluid than uh men's?
Well, uh the unfortunate reason is very so in the past, right? Evolutionarily speaking, it protects the woman's body if she can become aroused regardless of what is happening.
Which is why sometimes during sexual assault, women can still reach orgasm and then they feel loads of shame afterward because it's horrific. They think, did I want that? Did I want this thing? How awful am I? I I I'm traumatized and now I did my body did a thing to me that I am traumatized about as well. It's so brutal.
Speaking speaking to those findings though, um I'm I would be curious to know where how they sampled like do you do you remember like how they sampled for those women?
Uh preferences related to aggression, pleasure and pain and pornography among male and female interviewees. I've got the it's uh I can send you the the journal article. But certainly even if we don't look at aggression is arousing, hard aggression is arousing. Like would like more aggression in mainstream pornography, actively seek aggression, aroused by women showing pain in response to aggression. Just look at the romantic genre.
Mhm. Well, evolutionarily speaking, like in terms of masochism, it would benefit women to show a capacity to endure pain.
Yeah. Or or like it's not I don't want to say subjugation but it make it it evokes like caretaking behaviors for men right if they see that a woman is um like in need of help or support.
I suppose so to a degree but there's also a kind of resilience in masochism right that I can withstand it there's almost anti-fragility not a fragility.
That goes back to the trauma that I talk about in Sexinction and the um is in the porn chapter about how many individuals who are into BDSM and kink actually do have a history especially of physical abuse in childhood.
Oh, I imagine that made you very popular.
It's still happening now. People because you were a sex positive right research writer person, right?
Yeah, I was a columnist for a well-known men's magazine with nude women in it. And um writing this book, I was so grateful to have the chance to sit down and really question a lot of the beliefs I had. And I went through my own data that I collected when I was still in sex research and I found the same thing. And I was amazed. I thought...
What do you mean you went through the data and what did you find?
I found that interest in BDSM and kink is more is correlated with severe physical abuse abuse in childhood and this is even more so the case for men who are into BDSM and kink as compared to men who are community controls obviously men who have porn problems who are not into BDSM or kink and also more so the case than men who are convicted of child sex crimes. So there's something with physical...
BDSM and kink is a better predictor of male childhood abuse trauma...
But than than pedophilia victimization um yeah well convicted sex offenses or pornography.
So we don't know how many of those are unreported and stuff like that.
Right but also there are times when men will abuse children and not necessarily be pedophilic that's like fine you know very fine details but overall yeah yeah child sex crimes.
What do you think that says about what BDSM and kink is doing for people?
It's really sad. I I want to be clear like I'm not saying this to to make judgment about people or to try and shame them. I really hope my in bringing awareness to this because BDSM is so commonplace in society, right? It's so normalized almost. It's almost seem like there there is a variation I think in terms of people who just who might partake in sexual activity that is like playful or passionate, right? Versus wanting to strangle your partner, wanting to really hurt them, wanting to humiliate them, or if you enjoy those behaviors done to you, especially for women, because physical harm, it wouldn't really make sense for women or men, but why would physical harm be correlated with orgasm, right? If you can potentially become pregnant from this act, why would it be beneficial to you and your offspring to find physical pain? And what do you think?
Why? Because something went wrong with the system and it's getting wires crossed.
Yeah. So, I my hope is that by bringing attention to this because so many people I sense enjoy these things but don't really know why or they think it's something that there's something it's something they take pride in and I think maybe it's something that you should look a little more deeply into. They're using their uh sexual preferences as a way to work through something that maybe should be done with a therapist.
Interesting. So, I remember I was talking to a researcher and they were telling me about how this maybe not uncontacted tribe, but this relatively um relatively uncontacted tribe. One of the rites of passage that they had for women was that men would get uh reeds, thick reeds and sticks, whippy sticks, and they would stand there and they would whip the women across their backs. Like these every woman in the the um tribe had huge scars everywhere across their backs. And the goal of the women was to be able to stand there and not flinch, not make noise, not cry, not whimper, not yell, not do anything. And this was supposed to be a a presentation of their capacity to endure what would become giving birth, child rearing. And that when you were talking about um it might engender sympathy from men, which I can completely see like the just the power dynamic, the subjugation, uh all of that that that does make sense. Allow me to come and hold you. But if you're able to withstand pain, there's also a kind of resilience in that which I think would almost work against it. So yeah, kind of interesting. I always think about that that example when it comes to sort of female behavior in kink. I'm like, is this maybe some kind of demonstration of my capacity of the woman's capacity to uh endure hard things physically? Uh not like lift heavy things, right? That's the guy picking you up and putting you against the wall. That's the ability for him to physically dominate you. But the woman's ability to endure the pain might actually be maybe like a fertility cue of some kind like my pain tolerance. I don't know.
It could be. I could see if real neat idea wet clay. All right. I could see it if it is something that is like culturally enforced and it's like a right of passage. But if you as a woman are intentionally putting yourself in those situations when you don't need to. There are plenty of guys out there who are I mean vanilla is seen as a negative thing. I don't think being vanilla is a bad thing. So, there are plenty of vanilla guys out there who are not going to want to strangle you during sex and not going to want to like, you know, degrade you during sex. So, if you're intentionally putting yourself through that, even if it is a way to show how strong you are, why would you choose to do that when you don't need to?
When you don't need to. Uh, romantic. I was sat on the plane flying to St. Louis a couple of weeks ago and there was a lovely woman sat next to me and she had her iPad up and she was reading A Court of Thorns and Roses.
Now, what is that? That is...
That is one of the most popular romantasy books at the moment. You're familiar with romantasy?
Is it? It's basically like erotica.
It is. That's probably that that's a word that you would use. Okay. Um I respect the art form and also the fact that the fan base is massive and I don't want to get lynched by them. Uh no no it it is it is um story. It it's female literacy porn wrapped in quite a lot of story, but there are sort of peak dirty moments. Anyway, the our friend is tapping away and she didn't have her glasses on. The font size was quite quite large and I I had a realization that chicks can basically watch porn on a plane, I guess. So, they can basically watch their equivalent of porn on a plane. And I'm looking at this. I'm trying not to move my head at all. I'm keeping my head dead straight. I'm going uh and I spoke to some friends afterward. I've not read the book. I didn't I didn't read enough to fully capture what the narrative arc was.
Um but it might be A Court of Thorns and Roses or one of the other books like that. Uh the protagonist is a fairy prince or a fairy king who has the ability to transform himself into this like monstrous beast. And I think that in that sort of shows what it is that one of the sort of archetypal desires that women have this um he is dangerous but not around me.
And I think I was talking on the way in about that that study with a couple of friends. I have a group of uh evolutionary psychology researchers in a WhatsApp chat and whenever I get confused by stuff I put it in and they gave me the answer and Thomas from Uni of Nottingham gave me a fantastic answer for this one. What he said was the aggression is arousing etc etc etc. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. He said um what women think is I want a man who has the capability to be aggressive because protection, attraction, dominance, all that stuff, high testosterone, but he'll never be aggressive with me. Mhm. And it's a a a pattern misfiring of the sort of pattern detection, which is well, most guys that have the capacity to be aggressive don't have the regulation to be able to turn it off and create bright lines and and and contain it in that way. Uh if you have a guy who is a just a you know someone bumps into you on the street or you you get scared and he beats up all of the guys that are there. How many of them have gone through the full samurai Keanu Reeves training and come out the other side as you know that's not that's not most guys most guys that are great and dangerous physically are just dangerous physically everywhere. Uh not in Yes. That it's it's not um compartmentalized.
Yeah. Yeah. I I definitely agree. So that I that's the allure of I suppose the romance novel where you can have the duality there that doesn't fairy king who can become the beast but he's never going to be the beast with you.
Mhm. Um yeah. Interesting. So we have basically the most sexually permissive culture in history that is also having the least amount of sex.
Yeah. Which is wild. It's crazy when you think about like I was thinking about social media and even something as subtle as that like everyone's on social media. But I do think it even that is changing the way that people view potential partners, how they view their own partners. How so? Study that I cited in Sexinction showing that roughly one in 10 men actually loses interest in having sex with his own partner after looking at influencers and that women also feel less sexually desirable after being on social media.
One in 10 men lose lose interest like for a brief window of time.
So, they're less that they're less interested in having real sex with their partner when they've been looking at influencers on the internet.
Yeah. So, I do remember at uni so bad.
That was an English study, too, actually. So,
Good. Well, it probably it was probably the people that used to that I used to employ. It was probably the lads that used to work for me. I do remember um there was two two guys that uh were going to go on first dates with these two chicks two nights in a row. On the first one, he turned up and he ended up going back with her and having sex. Um but he said she looked nothing like her Instagram. It was gutting. It's like she was so hot on the Instagram. He kind of like a catfish type thing. And he had this joke about he wondered if he could have just Sellotaped her Instagram to her forehead so he could have looked at that. Uh, and then the next night the guy went out on one and she was really lovely and great and then I don't think they they'd slept with each other that night and he came back and looked at her Instagram and got turned off because she wasn't able to present herself in the marketplace of...
I said that. That's what I said. That's what I said. I was like, "Dude, you found a barn find. That's a diamond in the rough. You found somebody that's um really fantastic. She shows up. It's wonderful in person that the marketplace where most other people are going to be competing for with you for her. She's she just not present. I had an update. I don't know what what it was. I didn't do my research. Uh...
So what is it he didn't like about the fact that like so he can't send people to her profile to look at her?
No, you just I think that there was a it wasn't even as deep as that. Sorry, it was significantly more deep than that. Not that he couldn't show off this girl that could potentially become his girlfriend or whatever to other people on Instagram. I think it what I believed it to be was he was so conditioned to judging a woman's attractiveness through her social media profile and especially given that it's the most extreme version of you and for men too, right? The most extreme wealth or whatever. Um that he he got the ick by her having a bad Instagram account. Instagram, man. Um I don't know. I don't I I the club promotion industry is a a weird and wonderful place, but I'll never forget it. Two nights in a row, one guy saying, "I wish I could have Sellotaped her Instagram to her forehead." And the next night, the guy going, "She was amazing. But I went and looked at her social media profile after we'd been on the date, and it was a turnoff, dude. Dude, I got the I I got the ick because her Instagram wasn't hot."
So, he wants a hot Instagram lady who's just as hot in real life.
Uh, yes, I think so. Uh, they look, these guys were 19. They had no prefrontal cortex.
I don't even think that that's that uncommon though. I think it's that that social media has done something like that more subtly though to the general population.
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Yeah, they feel less attractive.
Okay. So, it's a comparison game.
Right. Why? What do you think's going on? What's the What's the mechanism?
Well, I well the I wrote a chapter about plastic surgery and when you look at this trend of young especially really young in some cases girls getting procedures done. I do think social media has done something to make them feel that they need to do this to compete and to get a partner or to at least be found attractive and there has to be something with just like constantly being inundated with these images on social media. They have found in say adolescent girls that girls who are less popular or girls who tend to do upward comparison so tend to compare themselves to say more attractive women or or um more popular girls tend to fall prey to this a little bit more in an attempt to try and clamber up this felt imbalance of a hierarchy that they're comparing themselves to.
Okay. Talk to me about what's happened to plastic surgery over time. Have we seen increases in it? The types changed? But what's the context of people getting different looks? The Kardashians did the BBL for a while. Is that still in?
Now it is breast augmentation for Gen Z women. So they are actually boob jobs are very popular among that cohort. I do think that's influenced by pornography. Also labiaplasty. I was just looking actually at a study a couple nights ago showing that women very many young women feel self-conscious about their labia and are actually getting these procedures done which is also influenced from porn. And it I mean it's just crazy to me. It makes me wonder is that why people are not interested in having sex? Same with guys. Guys are getting filler injections into their penis for even sexing purposes. Like they just want to look better.
So good. George, my housemate, used to make this joke every time that we were on a plane. It was the same, you know, someone, it's kind of like a dad joke, but he's not yet a dad. And you know those teeny tiny 175 mil cans of Diet Coke?
He would always say, it's like I'd keep a hold of one of those and I'd go back and I'd take a dick pic with it in the background so it would make it look, you know, it's like, "Oh, that's a 330 or 350 mil can, but I've kept the I've kept the airplane mini and that's, you know, comparatively...
I should be doing that instead of getting the filler in their penis."
I agree. I agree. Make Diet Coke, mini Diet Coke great again. Um, so yeah, you I mean the labiaplasty and the penis stuff, it seems to be obvious that it would be influenced by porn,
But even things like I see um like news reports of women under 30 getting facelifts, getting upper eye lifts, right? And I in my personal opinion, I don't think women that young need to be getting extensive work done because you do not have the signs of aging yet to justify...
What do you think they're trying to do?
Well, I think um if you look at say when women are the most fertile, it tends to be mid-20s. So my sense is most women are trying to look like they're in their mid-20s. So if you're older than that, you're going to try and look younger. And if you're younger, you're trying to look older.
And so you're going to use you're going to choose the most fertile in their mid-20s.
Yeah. And I found out some really uncomfortable data around when men are most fertile. It's really young.
Yeah. Like illegal in some states young.
You go really which is just I don't know we talk about women's biological clocks we never really think about we there's so much sperm right speak for yourself but there's so much sperm and you only need one.
Larger window though they also have a larger like men can still impregnate someone later on in life there are higher rates of chromosomal abnormalities but the potential whereas for women it's it's a little bit more unforgiving.
But anyway Okay. Um, so you think well I I've seen what is buckle fat, buckle fat.
Yeah, buccal fat removal. Yeah,
That the the cheek cheek fat thing. What's that trying to achieve? Do you think...
To look older? Because you're removing the baby fat essentially in your face. But what happens is as you get older, your face naturally loses fat, right? And so you're going to look more gaunt.
Yeah. And then you might potentially need to use filler too.
Oh, so I used I got fat removal before I was 24 and then after I was 28, I had to use filler to replace where I got rid of the fat.
