The main message from left-leaning media, I say this as a journalist, is that men are terrible. If men are struggling in society, I say this in extinction, men are basically told to go cry into a pillow silently. And like lefting media doesn't care.
The three sixes refer to a man who is over six feet tall, makes over six figures in annual income, and has a penis that is over six inches long. So basically, the idea is if you are dating a man who does not meet all three of these criteria, you're wasting your time. This is what the message is to women. And like you said, the number of men in America who meet all three of these sixes in terms of this criteria is, when I did the calculation, it was maybe one percent. And then when you factor in personality, being straight, unmarried, and then chemistry and all these other factors that would be important when it comes to dating and relationships or marriage, that whittles it down to an even smaller percentage.
I think if both men and women were just honest about what they really want during sex, we would prevent all of this because choking can be fatal. It can lead to loss of consciousness, which can lead to brain damage. It can lead to permanent mental health issues down the line like dissociation, depression, anxiety. And it's showing that it can also lead to cortical swelling. So there's inflammation in the brain after being choked. And just so your audience has an idea of how prominent this is, of university students, of women, half have experienced this. A quarter of them have experienced this by the age of 14. A third of them have experienced this more than five times. So it's very, very common.
Hey everybody, it's Michael Shermer. It's time for another episode of the Michael Shermer Show, brought to you by, as always, Skeptic Magazine. Hey, here's the new issue. Check it out. skeptic.com/magazine. Yes, UFOs, UAPs, it's all another form of religion in my opinion, but you can check that out. Also, this is brought to you by Big Nerve, which is the platform for the Skeptic Society where we are hosting discussions and debates. And Big Nerve is a company that's putting money up. You can win money by participating in these debates. Basically, just talking to me and other people about a lot of the topics on this show. So, check it out. skeptic.bignerve.com, welcome, or just skeptic.com, skeptic.bignerve.com, and you'll find it.
All right. My guest today is Dr. Debra Soh, returning champion. She's a neuroscientist who specializes in human sexuality and biological explanations for behavior. She received her PhD from York University in Toronto and worked as a scientific researcher for 11 years. She has spoke at Oxford Union about her first book, The End of Gender, which she was on this show for. And she and I have also done public events about this topic in her book at Freedomfest. That book was translated into six languages and was featured in the Daily Wire's film, What is a Woman? Did that question ever get answered? I think that question has always been answered, but that's kind of what that book is about. How did this become a thing? As a journalist, Dr. Soh writes about technology, health, and the politicization of science. And her writing has appeared in the Globe and Mail in Toronto, the Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times, Harper's Magazine, and many other publications. You can read about her at drsoh.com. No period after doctor, just drsoh.com. Here's the new book, Sex Extinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Uh, and by the way, it's also on, hang on for a second here. It's also on audiobook because here is my version. I was just listening to it again. Second time this the last two days. Debra, it's so good. You're such a good writer. And of course, I mean, who doesn't like reading about sex, right? I mean, come on.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Well, thank you.
I mean, it's almost a clickbait title and cover, but it's a serious subject. Um, I mean, so a couple of different topics I guess come to mind there. There's the lack of sex to the point of a lot of Western countries being below the replacement level. What is that, 2.1 children per woman? And aren't there countries like Japan and South Korea that are like one or even less than one?
Yeah. In the US it's about 1.6 right now.
1.6 in the US. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, I grew up as a baby boomer with the, you know, the whole Paul Ehrlich, the population bomb, and we're doomed. And then that never happened. Somehow humans found a way to feed billions of more people. But now the concern seems to be the other direction. Um, not enough people. So, I gather you're following some of that as well along with your research on sex.
Yeah. So I was quite skeptical in the beginning when I first started hearing about the sex recession because, you know, a study came out in 2016 that was the first time showing that Americans were having less sex than ever before. And since then there have been multiple studies coming out showing that this is a phenomenon that's happening not just in the West but it's happening in the East as well, as you mentioned like Japan. It's happening in all developed countries. It doesn't matter how old you are. It doesn't matter if you're married or single, but it's especially prevalent among younger generations like millennials and Gen Z. And the statistic I kept coming across is that roughly one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past year. So my reason for writing Sex Extinction initially, when I sat down, I wanted to see is the sex recession real? I do think it is. And the more research I did, the more scientific studies I read, the more I realized that this is actually quite concerning. And it's not just necessarily about sexuality and sexual inactivity but also what that represents more broadly about human connection, emotional intimacy, and also my fear is that many of the consequences that we have experienced as a result of being unprepared for say social media and screens, I see the same problems repeating themselves in the future with regard to some of the technologies that are coming in to replace human sexual activity. So things like AI girlfriends and boyfriends, which I know is something you've talked about in the past. Sex robots as that technology advances. Social media is also creating this divide between men and women. So if you're single, you've likely come across this content that is really with the goal, I think, of driving men and women apart. It's also affecting sexlessness in married people's marriages and making them less interested in having sex with their regular partner. And also things like endocrine disruptors, environmental toxins, low testosterone, the birth control pill, egg freezing, IVF. So all of these supposed solutions that are with the goal of helping people buy time to delay family planning, which I think is understandable, especially in today's climate and, you know, everyone is struggling financially, but we're not addressing the underlying problem. And I think on many levels, this is a larger issue regarding mental health and hormonal issues that aren't being addressed. So the book really tries to be comprehensive in looking at every possible explanation. And I also wrote it with the goal of speaking to single people who may be very frustrated with the dating climate and saying why is dating today more difficult than it's ever been. Even for, you know, married people because married people are also experiencing high rates of sexlessness. And also for parents because I'm very concerned about how this technology and these social changes are affecting children's development because like we see with screens, you know, they are affecting say brain development, they're affecting attention, they're affecting emotional regulation and mental health. In Gen Z in particular, they really are experiencing a mental health crisis. You know, anxiety is extremely high among Gen Zers. Roughly half of Gen Zers have a diagnosed mental health condition and 90% of those with a diagnosis have anxiety. Depression is also at an all-time high right now. So, when we look at how, I mean, mental health is such a huge part of life and just enjoying life, and I am, like I said, concerned that we may make the same mistakes as we've made with social media. So, I really wrote this book, it doesn't matter what your relationship status is or if you've lost interest in dating entirely, that I guarantee you will learn something from it.
That's amazing. That was a perfect encapsulation of the book. Okay, let's deconstruct some of that because it's also interesting. Now, on the anxiety thing, what's the male-female difference there in rates of anxiety and depression that you mentioned?
So with Gen Z, it tends to be like it's extremely prevalent. So of Gen Zers, over half have a diagnosed mental health condition and of them, 90% have anxiety. So historically, I would say mood disorders were more commonly seen in women. My sense is with the younger generation it's probably evening out. I do think social media plays a large role in that and women or girls tend to gravitate more towards visually based social media platforms and also the interactions on those platforms. So it can be quite catty. There's a lot of social comparison. So I previously thought, you know, like that body of research that shows that there are these really devastating mental health effects for young people, I really thought that was more so the case in kids who have maybe a predisposition for these mental health issues or maybe, you know, their parents are not as involved. But I'm beginning to think this is a developmental thing and because these kids are getting on these platforms at such a young age that it is really warping their perception of reality. But what I was interested to find is that also this is affecting young men too. And we see the trend of looksmaxxing where young boys and in some cases prepubescent boys, so they haven't even started puberty yet, are going on these forums to try and figure out which medical interventions and hormones they should be taking so that they can extend puberty, so that they can have a more masculine facial structure, or that they can be taller because these are the things that women want. And so I think these young men are erroneously projecting, you know, men tend to value attractiveness and looks and youth more so in a partner than women do. Women care more about finances and resources. Obviously, on average, it's not the case for every single person. But I do think these young men, because they're not as experienced romantically, because social media, the algorithm keeps feeding them this content that tells them if you are a gigachad, if you are super, super masculine and really good-looking, you're going to have no issues with women. And also it tells them women are hypergamous. So women are always going to be trading up and they're never going to be happy with you. They're always going to cheat on you with someone better, with another more alpha guy. So you need to be the most alpha-looking guy. But women who are looking for a relationship actually find hypermasculinity a turnoff because hypermasculinity tends to be associated with, it's associated with high testosterone. Right? Like men who have very masculine facial features tend to have higher levels of testosterone both developmentally and circulating currently. So, it's associated with antisociality, aggression, cheating. So, women who are looking for, say, a long-term relationship or a long-term partner are going to tend to stay away from men who look like that. So, I'm just saying basically it's not going to give these young boys what they're looking for, but it's more so this idea that both boys and girls, I think, are being negatively affected by online content. And I'm really concerned about how this is going to shape them going forward because they already have such negative views of the opposite sex and what they think the opposite sex wants. And they're now trying to, and girls too, you know, they're trying to be a combination of super skinny but also curvy. So not too, you know, not too curvy but then also not so skinny that they're not curvy. You know what I mean? It's just basically impossible to have that body type naturally. You have to undergo some form of cosmetic work. And then, you know, in terms of facial work like fillers and Botox, and I go into an extensive investigation as to how we got to this place where, you know, in my hometown I see young girls, I see teenagers walking around with a whole ton of work and I'm just really concerned and amazed that...
You mean cosmetic surgery work?
Yeah. Mostly in the face. Yeah.
But even need that for...
They don't need it. That's the thing. And so I only see this issue becoming even more pronounced with time because as this generation gets older, you know, it's not like you, I don't think this is something you dabble in once you start doing it. And I don't want to come down on people who have gotten work done. I don't think that's my place. But my concern is with children, you know, I don't think children, especially young girls, they're undergoing these interventions that are designed for women in middle age. So there's no reason at 18 or even in your 20s to be doing anything like this. You should be doing other things and enjoying your life. So that's just one example of the ways that social media has really warped, I think, young people's self-esteem.
Yeah. And even older women like in Hollywood, they get the work. I know. I guess the pressure is on to look young or whatever, but I remember being at a TED conference. I think it was in Vancouver. And I was sitting next to a woman that looked a lot like Meg Ryan, who is just naturally gorgeous, just all-American beauty. And it was her and, you know, the lights come up and there's her name tag. I'm like, 'Oh my god, it's Meg Ryan.' And she had all this work done. I thought, 'Oh my god.' I mean, just to me as a guy, it's like, 'Nah, that's just not it.' I mean, maybe the pressure in Hollywood's different than the real world. I don't know. But I just thought most of the time this is not really that much work anyway. I mean, I know people do Botox. I can't really tell the difference, but I'm, you know, I'm a dude. I'm not even paying attention to that kind of stuff. But, okay, a couple threads there I think that are interesting. Um, again, there's a lot of different moving parts here. Um, the Sex Extinction idea, underpopulation problem. I did have Dean Spears on the show. His book is called After the Spike. You know, population is going to spike out around 2050 at about 10 billion and then it's going to go down and it's going to keep going down. And he was pretty pessimistic about this. Not much governments can do. If people don't want to have babies, they're not going to have babies. I think what you're talking about is a slightly different problem. Maybe an underlying problem. Why aren't people having more babies? So, one I think positive thing is if you give women, you know, economic empowerment and education and access to birth control, they choose to have fewer babies. So I guess the question for you would be why are they having, instead of having six they have two, why are they having one or less on average?
Yeah, that's a very relevant question and I want to be clear like I don't think everyone should have kids. I don't think everyone has to have children. If people are happy without children, that's their right. My concern is more for the people who want to have children who are not having them and why are they not having them? And there was one study by Pew that showed that of people who are childless, a quarter of them say they're childless because they couldn't find the right person. And so that's another piece of it is that many women in particular, I think both men and women, you know, want to have children. Although it was interesting that the polls seem to be showing that more young men than women want to be parents. So I think that's also influenced by cultural factors. But with regard to why people are not able to find the right partner, a big part of it is because of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives that are actively penalizing men and especially white and Asian men. So what you find, women are excelling academically and in the workforce. And I think that's a wonderful thing. I want to be very clear because by criticizing DEI, I'm not saying the only reason women got ahead or women are successful is because they were given this unfair boost. And I think it's again amazing that women are ambitious. I think women should have the freedom to choose whether they want to prioritize family or their career or if they want to do both. But the issue is if you penalize men and hold them back in terms of what they are allowed to achieve in terms of their success, there are going to be fewer of them who are successful. So of the ones who are successful, they will have their pick of the lot in terms of female partners and they will be disincentivized from settling down or even, I would say, being willing to give anything in a relationship because if they don't get exactly what they want, they can just find someone else who will give them what they want. So those men are having tons of sex, but the vast majority of men who are not as successful, who are falling behind in society, are basically shut out of the dating market. And so these are the men who are turning toward these alternatives like AI girlfriends, pornography, OnlyFans, platforms like that. And then once sex robots become, I think, cheap enough that you can just purchase them, like right now they're still quite expensive. I did a whole chapter on exploring that technology and really where that's headed. So what you find also is for women who are very successful and well-educated, they can't find a partner who is at the same level of success as they are or who is more successful than they are because, as I mentioned, women are hypergamous and prefer to marry up. So what you find is successful women will say, okay, well, I can't find the right person, I'll just keep focusing on my career, they become more successful and then it becomes doubly difficult for them to find someone. And instead of saying, okay, this is a problem we are experiencing right now in society and we need to find a way to address this, to fix the problem, society is giving these women alternatives like single motherhood by choice. So if you get to a certain age and you want a child and you can't find a man with whom you'd like to have a child, then they have the choice of going off on their own. And I did an investigation in terms of what is it like when you buy sperm off the internet. Is this actually possible? Yes, it is possible. So I think that's, you know, I feel for women who are in that situation because I can't imagine how difficult of a choice that would be. And I can only imagine how difficult it would be to be a child's primary caregiver, go through the process of not just pregnancy, but childbirth and childbearing on your own while also being the sole provider. So my concern is, you know, this is not the way we should be looking at it. If women can't find someone that they want to pair up with, the solution is not to say here's a way that you can just go off on your own, have a child on your own. And then culturally we see also this idea that having a boyfriend now is cringey. Being in a relationship is embarrassing. That type of thing. And men also saying, okay, well, or I would say people at the forefront of this technology saying, let's just give men these alternatives so that they have a sexual outlet so they aren't overly frustrated and they're not going to go and start destroying things and burning down society, which is I also don't think is the solution. The solution is to give them support and to acknowledge it's not fair to penalize people based on their biological sex.
Yeah. Yeah, I had Richard Reeves on the show talking about his book Of Boys and Men. That's another one of your moving parts there that you just kind of reviewed. You know, why the modern male is struggling. Well, in part, you know, that whole DEI thing of, you know, you're to blame, you discussed this in your book, you're to blame for, you know, Western capitalism and colonialism and all that stuff. And, you know, if you hear this enough, maybe growing up, you really begin to have a lot of self-doubts, you know, as well. Um, you talk about the kind of feminization of academia and corporate America. Like in academia where I work a lot in publishing too. You know, there's more women than men all over the place. Okay, good. Uh, you know, they have the opportunity to do it. Fine. Uh, but a lot of the equity feminists want it. Every department must have 50/50 at least, or at least 50% women. And as we know, a lot of the STEM fields don't have this, engineering, physics, and so on. And I can assure you, it isn't because the departments don't want to hire more women. They do. They're desperate to hire more women, right? They're not being excluded. They're not discriminatory. They're not misogynist. That's not the issue. Women appear to be less interested in STEM fields. Why is that not okay? And in the other direction, why are we not, you know, insisting that men go into, you know, marine biology and clinical psychology and nursing and some of the other departments where women are like 70% graduating with graduate degrees in these fields. The whole thing seems kind of messed up.
Yeah. And I mean I've heard from plenty of my male colleagues who are still in academia who tell me that many hiring positions that are being filled are explicitly for women and minorities. And they will explicitly tell people if you are a white man it's not worth applying because you're not going to get it. To me that is, I mean you couldn't do that the other way around. You couldn't say this position is not for women and not for racial minorities, right? That would be discrimination and you would be rightfully, you know, held accountable for that. So my issue I think is that you would think also with academia where this is a, where the brightest minds should flourish and where people should encourage pursuing science and knowledge based on merit and your capabilities as a scientist as opposed to your identity markers. And it reminds me of this column I wrote defending James Damore back in 2017 when his Google memo went viral. And he was saying correctly that the reason there are fewer women in STEM is not because women are biologically less capable. He was not saying that. I'm not saying that. But just that on average women tend to find other fields more interesting. And it's due to exposure to testosterone in the womb which masculinizes the brain. So women who do tend to find scientific disciplines more interesting were likely exposed to higher levels of testosterone, as were most men, but not all men of course. So it's, yeah, it's just I really don't like the direction we're going in and I know some feminists are very upset at me and feel I'm a traitor for saying this, but I think, you know, as women we did not appreciate when we were discriminated against, when we were not treated as equals, and so it's not fair to say, well, now that it's benefiting us, it's like we should keep our mouth shut and just go along with it.
Okay. So to those feminists who say that those differences you just mentioned are due to testosterone in the womb and they say no, no, it's a social contagion thing. It's pink and blue and it's how they're raised and so on. What is your response to those responses?
Well, there are thousands of studies documenting the effects of prenatal testosterone and I have a whole ton of them listed in my first book, The End of Gender. So what I usually find is that's where the conversation ends and it just continues more in terms of name-calling and calling me, you know, all these unpleasant things, that I'm misogynist or whatever. But it's fine. It's more that in today's day and age, it doesn't matter what the research says. I think I understand where these departments are coming from because even within the sciences, it's been overtaken by this sentiment that women are an oppressed class. And I do think at one point we were oppressed. We legitimately were oppressed. But now there's this overcorrection that is really unhelpful. And now what you see in response to that is young men are really put off from pursuing higher education because they say it's woke. It's extremely feminist. It's going to discriminate against me. And I've seen it firsthand, you know, in terms of some of my male colleagues and friends who try to go to university and say, I can't stand this. I'm in class and the professor is openly telling me I'm a bad person just because I'm white and I'm a man.
So understandably, how are you going to do three or four years of that? That's not an education. That's basically like a shaming ritual. And so, yeah, I partially feel, I know you're still, you know, in the academy, so I'm not going to be too hard on it, but I do.
Well, not really. I'm sort of retired now. I don't actually miss it.
I don't miss it a lot. It's changed so much. Just one little anecdote thing because, oh, also there's studies showing I think baby chimpanzees, there's male-female differences in the toys they prefer to play with. They're chimps. They weren't indoctrinated into pink and blue television commercials or whatever. But anecdotally, when my little guy, I have a, he's almost 10 now, but when he was, I don't know, three or four, and I'd take him to Target and we'd go to the toy department, and, you know, to get to the boys' thing where all the toys he likes, we had to pass the girls' aisle. So, I would kind of nudge him down the girls' aisle just for fun. And he's like, 'No, no, what? What? What are you doing?' I'm like, 'Come on, come on, you want this?' He's like, 'No, no.' Oh, and he's like, 'Dad, it was really funny.' He had no idea what I was doing, but it was pretty funny. It's so obvious from the earliest age what they prefer to play with.
Yeah. And there's even one study that I quoted in my first book where they give boys dolls and girls trucks to try and encourage them to, like, to socialize them to be like the opposite sex. And the girls are lining up the trucks and tucking them into bed and telling them bedtime stories. And the boys are whipping the dolls around by the hair and, you know, using them as basically play weapons. So...
Yeah. Yesterday I just watched the new Netflix documentary Manosphere. This is Louis Theroux's latest film. He's a filmmaker and he does quirky, weird subjects. So this time he kind of joined up with some of these Manosphere guys. You know, who's the, I don't know, I forget the names of these guys, but they're pretty prominent on YouTube and they're major influencers and they're, you know, manly men with all the testosterone and the hot cars and the gyms. They're gym rats and then they have the girlfriend and then they just openly say, you know, I just sleep around as much as I can and she's happy to put up with it because that's the way it should be, you know. So, he interviews some of the girlfriends and you could tell they were not, you know, they were not vibing this. And then one of them is like kind of starting to talk about it and she gets a text on her phone and she's like, 'Oh, I can't talk to you anymore.' He's like, 'What?' Yeah. The guy, he was in the other room listening and just shut her down. These are bad dudes. I mean, these are not men that you would, you know, want your daughter to marry or your son to be like.
Yeah. I mean, that's what I was going to say, too, is the response now to extreme feminism and these policies that openly discriminate and subjugate men is that young men are finding voices that speak to them and that claim to be looking out for them. I personally don't think that this type of content or these influencers necessarily care about young men. I think it's more about getting attention and building their own brand. But because young men, I can see why it's palatable for them because who's advocating for them publicly? I mean, you have, I wouldn't say all progressives are like this, but the main message from left-leaning media, I say this as a journalist, is that men are terrible. If men are struggling in society, I say this in Sex Extinction, you know, men are basically told to go cry into a pillow silently and like left-leaning media doesn't care if there are these issues, men's mental health, men's higher suicide rate, the ways in which men are struggling in terms of having a job, their mental health. Caring about those issues is seen as somehow anti-woman or somehow putting down women or dismissing women's needs or dismissing concerns about sexism. So, there's that piece of it. And so these young men are saying, 'Well, I don't have any support on this side of the aisle. I'm going to go to the right.' And then what you see is these male influencers take it to such a far extreme on the right. But because, I mean, there are reasonable voices on the right, definitely speaking of this, but for whatever reason, I think it's also social media and the algorithm that is feeding young boys this content because it is so extreme and because it does tend to get more attention. That's the case with anything on social media. So these young boys, maybe they don't necessarily have fathers in their lives also. So they don't have a healthy male role model and they don't know how healthy men treat women. And that the defining characteristic of masculinity is not being promiscuous and treating women like, you know, worse than the family pet or speaking to them like they are subhuman or that the only goal in life should be to make a ton of money so you can drive nice cars and be really fit and get a lot of sexual attention. I think in many cases it's like influencers who have their own issues and they're now trying to overcompensate for those self-esteem issues with their brand and now an entire generation, Gen Z men and Gen Alpha boys, are internalizing this as, oh, this is what I need to be to be successful. So until we as a society adequately address their concerns, because the left-leaning media just seems to keep moving in the opposite direction saying, see, these Manosphere guys are all toxic, and I don't think that's the best ideology for young men to latch onto, but I think many of them are misguided and they don't know any better and I mean they're children so I try to keep that in mind because yeah, especially, you know, some of the shows I've done previous to yours, I look in the comments and it's all these Manosphere guys very, very angry that women are daring to talk about this issue.
Oh yeah, I wasn't expecting that at all.
And so I try to think, you know, these are people who are probably in a lot of emotional pain right now and so I can't take this personally. I try to be very fair. I try to be fair to both men and women. And writing Sex Extinction, I wanted to be very fair because I think both sexes have contributed to this issue of sexlessness and to why both sexes are so enraged at each other. But yeah, it's...
Oh, well, Debra, you're beyond fair in your book. You could not be more fair. You have two dozen caveats throughout the whole thing. It's enough. Okay. On average, yes, of course. Yeah. Although I guess you do have to say that given the replication crisis and all the craziness in social science. But one more point on the Manosphere film, The Free Press had a nice review of it in which they pointed out that we already know what these guys, like Andrew Tate is one of them and his brother. There's a bunch of them like that. We already know what they're up to. They've told us ten times right there on the air. They say why they're doing it. We're doing it to get clicks so I can make more money off my YouTube channel so I can buy a nice car so I can get laid more. I mean, they'd say that openly, right? And the critique was, why didn't he interview the young men, the 14-year-olds that are looking up to these guys and say, what is it you like about this guy? Why are you doing this? What's the problem? That's what your book is addressing. The underlying problem is not those guys. It's the people that are giving them money or giving them clicks, right?
Because I do think it speaks to something important, an important factor, which is why is it young boys feel so lost that they are gravitating toward these voices and then understandably why young women say, I don't want anything to do with men in my generation or boys in my generation because this is how they think. I mean, if you don't have someone pushing back, what you see now is because, say, these influencers are like a father figure to these boys, they're very much attached to them and so anyone who criticizes them, it doesn't matter how reasonable they are, they see that as a personal threat and so they will defend these influencers. And so when you are in, say, a dating context as you get older and the women you're meeting are saying, hey, I don't like that you listen to this person. He doesn't say very nice things about women. These men are so, I think, deeply ingrained in this ideology and to listening to these voices that they will choose those voices and those role models with whom they have this parasocial relationship as opposed to taking the feedback from the women that they're dating. They probably think this is all feminism's fault and this is why women don't like me thinking like this, so I'm...
not going to date women, and the problem is all women, just like you see happening with extreme feminism telling women that all men are predators and horrible people. And so young women who listen to this will say, 'Well, I don't want to date men because men are just going to hurt me and be awful to me.' And so it's two sides of the same coin.
All right, let's talk about what women want in a man. You jokingly talk about the six-six rule of six feet tall, six figure income, six inches of manhood. Okay. But, and if you add all those up, I think I posted on X about that and somebody sent me a calculation. It's like less than 1%, right? So yet, you know, 30% of the women on these social media things are super hot looking for that. They're looking for less than 1%. So somebody's not going to be very successful on these sites.
It's funny because I saw one of the other comments because you listed it as the 666 rule. I call it the three sixes rule, but people are saying how it's demonic also.
Oh, it's demonic. Yes, that's funny.
But yeah, so basically the three sixes refer to a man who is over six feet tall, makes over six figures in annual income, and has a penis that is over six inches long. So basically, the idea is if you are dating a man who does not meet all three of these criteria, you're wasting your time. This is what the message is to women. And like you said, the number of men in America who meet all three of these sixes in terms of this criteria is, when I did the calculation, it was maybe 1%. And then when you factor in personality, being straight, unmarried, and then chemistry, and all these other factors that would be important when it comes to dating and relationships or marriage, that whittles it down to an even smaller percentage. So basically, women who subscribe to this ideology are shutting out potential men with whom they may have a future for this ideal that may or may not exist. And then so not only does this man need to exist, but you need to also meet him. And in today's climate where people are scared to talk to each other in real life, men are scared to approach women post-MeToo. Women are afraid that all men are potentially going to be predators or that they're not going to meet these criteria. So they don't bother talking to guys anyway. It's really difficult. And I'm saying the factors that actually predict a happy marriage or long-lasting relationship are things like agreeableness, like personality traits like being healthy, having healthy attachment, right? Secure attachment, compromise, being considerate. And yes, evolutionarily speaking, it makes sense why women prefer men who are taller, right? Men who can provide. And then the six-inch penis criterion is actually not very accurate because I don't know how graphic I can be on your podcast, but you can, you can, yeah.
So penile girth is actually a greater predictor of sexual satisfaction than penile length. So you don't necessarily need to have a six-inch penis. The average length is five inches. So I think most men are just fine as is. But I think women should be allowed to want what they want. But just to have some, perhaps some awareness that not all of these metrics are the most important. And just like, you know, I think men get a lot of flak for having the preferences they do in terms of physical appearance. So if it's fair for women to have these preferences for a man, then it's fair for men to have these preferences for a woman. And the other thing is that if you as a woman have these standards, then you're going to really be fighting it out with most women for these higher status men. And if you do not, you're going to be required to have sex sooner in order to stand a chance. Because that's what it comes down to. If men are dictating the terms of a relationship or if there are fewer viable men than women, men are going to be the ones saying, 'This is what I'm looking for. This is what I expect. And if you don't give that to me, like I said before, they're going to go elsewhere.' Or in the case of what we see with those influencers, those manosphere influencers, they will have multiple women, and those women have no choice but to share him. But I don't know what their arrangements are, but I've heard of some men who will say, 'I will sleep with whomever I want. You are not allowed to sleep with anybody else.'
Yeah. Yeah. I mean the whole polyamory thing is to me it's a failed experiment from the beginning. Yes. I know. Maybe it works for some people, but on average, right? I met a guy who said he was polyamorous. He forgot to tell his wife.
He just told the girlfriends.
Oh my god. That's cheating. Polyamory.
No, I see how this works. Okay. We used to call this what, swinging or something. Anyway, yeah.
So, but isn't there research on like education and intelligence can counter some of the height issues or whatever the more physical differences?
Yeah. I would say historically and in terms of real life relationships, yes. And I think personality and just even how you vibe with somebody can make such a difference, right? Like in person, how they treat you, kindness. But social media has created such a bizarre perception of what the opposite sex is like and what you should also look for. And that's what I find the most disturbing is that, I mean, these, it sounds crazy. It sounds like lore, right? It sounds like nonsense when you hear this thing. But there are people online. I don't know how much of them are trying to virtue signal or, you know, try to win in intrasexual competition by saying, you know, as a woman I will only date men who meet these criteria so that other women think that she's high status because she has these standards and so if they consider themselves high status they should also follow these same standards. I don't know how much of it is that this is what people genuinely believe. But my sense is there is a trend toward this because I hear from men who say, I mean even they when they are meeting women they feel the need to say if they're not six feet they'll say I'm almost six feet tall. I've noticed this is a trend among men they'll say I'm almost six feet tall if you ask them how tall they are. Um and just to be clear I don't ask men that just for fun you know I ask them in the context of oh I'm writing this book about you know this issue what do you find? I'm curious to know what you found. So they'll tell me in terms of when they meet women, they'll usually say that they're almost six feet tall. Whereas men who are actually six feet tall or taller will just say how tall they are. They'll say I'm 6'1, I'm 6'2.
So even that in itself is, it's crazy that I don't think that's so important, right? And people do that on their height and weight on dating profiles.
Yeah, everyone lies about that. Oh, I shouldn't say everyone lies about it, but that's how ridiculous it is. If you are on, I say everyone get off dating apps. Honestly, I don't believe that's the best way to meet partners. But yeah, many women will set the height filter at six feet. So you are cutting out so many men with whom you might potentially be compatible. And then the other thing is many men lie about their height. So the ones who are meeting that six feet criteria are liars. So you're now, you know, in some ways filtering for liars.
Yeah. Well, I remember that old study and it's a few years old now that for each college degree you have as a guy is worth two inches in height. So I figured, well, I got a bachelor's, master's, and PhD, so I'm finally over six feet. Yay, I made it.
But my advice to young men, and it, you know, it might sound crass, is really just be very, very successful. Pick what it is that you really love and you're good at. Get very successful. You have time. Time is not as unforgiving on your biological window as it is for women, fortunately or unfortunately, but you have time. And you will not have an issue attracting women if you are financially successful. All of this focus on height and looksmaxxing and even having the best body and all, you know, like women don't care as much about that. Yes, it could get you more attention but at the end of the day that's not what's going to keep a woman around.
Yeah, I was watching that other new Netflix documentary on the Murdoch family and Rupert Murdoch. I think he's on his fifth wife now. And it's like every 10 years older he gets, the next wife is 10 years younger than the previous wife, you know, so it's like a diverging curve. It's so obvious. I mean, he's not a good-looking guy at all. He's like, and he's kind of short, but it's obvious why, right? I mean, it's billions of dollars. I don't know. It's crazy, right?
I mean, no, there's some truth to what you're saying in terms of like trends and also what we see in sex differences. So yeah, men tend to prioritize youth, fertility, attractiveness in their partners. And again, this is not to say everyone does this. And I do understand why some extreme feminists have an issue with this or talking about this because then they see it as society placing too much emphasis on women's appearance and why is it men do not have the same type of scrutiny. Although I would say nowadays it's pretty harsh for men too because you see many men, older men getting cosmetic work done when they really don't need to. Like if anything, I think wrinkles work in a man's favor because it shows he's older and with age comes more resources. But I understand that concern because women will say look at young women and teenage girls and, you know, their obsession with having the perfect body and they're going through all these really invasive procedures to try and look more beautiful. But I don't think we have to deny what each sex wants on average or what we're attracted to to say, no, young women, that should not be the only thing women care about. Obviously, like women too should care about being intelligent, being interesting, have a sense of humor, be well-rounded. Like both men and women should care about their personality in addition to how much money they're making and what they look like.
Okay. Then what does the data say about what men prefer in women? You know, that hourglass figure, what is it? A 0.7 waist-to-hip ratio, stuff like that. Symmetrical faces, smooth complexion, you know, but that's just physical, you know. What are the psychological or other characteristics men want?
My, I'm thinking now in terms of the research, my sense in terms of the men I've asked and for research towards sex was very much someone who is supportive and who appreciates them for being men. This is I think a newer concept because men today feel like they are constantly being belittled for being men. And if you as a woman can just appreciate masculinity and appreciate masculinity in your man that already I think does wonders. I probably don't need to tell conservative-leaning people this, but definitely I say because there's a segment of society and they tend to be the loudest who really demonize men and demonize masculine men, even though I do think most women prefer masculinity in their male partners. Or young women feel that they have to compete with men. They have to, you know, be more successful than they are, make more money than they do. And if they do, that's great. But I don't think it should be about trying to stomp all over your partner and show them how much better you are than they are. That's not a healthy dynamic for a relationship.
So I say this is a more recent change in society because historically, I mean, this is the first time really women have been outperforming men at the rate that they are. In a few years two women are going to be graduating from university for every man. So this problem is only going to get worse.
Two to one now? Oh yeah. It's going to be there. Wow.
Yeah. And I hear from parents all the time that their daughters are succeeding academically. They're getting great jobs, but they can't seem to find boyfriends and then their sons are not doing as well. They tend to be, you know, on the computer all day long, vaping, no motivation, whatever. And it's really unfortunate because I do think this, I see it both in the data and I see it and I hear it anecdotally from people who reach out to me and tell me what they've experienced and how they feel like my book really has captured something that's going on. So in terms of the research, yeah, I think what women and men typically look for in relationships is someone who's supportive, someone who is more agreeable, someone who is securely attached, as I said. And what's interesting is that in terms of marital satisfaction, men place more emphasis on feeling attracted to their partner in terms of their marital satisfaction than women do. So whether women are attracted to their husband, that has no bearing on how satisfied they are in the marriage. So that tells you something as well.
Interesting. Yeah. Well, I've been married 12 years now and I was married before that 22 years. So I have some experience in this matter. It does help to have somebody you're physically attracted to, but that's only a surface thing. It really is only a surface thing. You know, just genuine niceness, easiness, emotional stability. It's just easy from day to day. You know, the level of conflict is low. I remember I was just reading some research on behavior genetics and that people that score low in agreeableness, high in disagreeableness, they have emotional regulation issues. They get mad a lot. That just makes life harder. I mean, it's like, chill out. I mean, I just want to live my life. You live your life. We're going to be happy. It's going to be easy, you know, just easy now, you know. But somebody that kind of gets fired up every day, that's hard, you know. I'm not sure what that's called. Emotional regulation, I guess, maybe. Agreeableness on the Big Five.
Yeah. So I see in terms of my predictions for relationships going forward, I see that emotional regulation aspect being increasingly a problem because younger kids, especially Gen Alpha who spent a lot of time on screens, you know, they were called iPad kids or they were called iPad kids because they're on their devices from such a young age.
